Coup De Grace


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 135 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

I was just wondering if being grappled counted as being helpless for the purpose of delivering a Coup de Grace. I had this idea of having a druid with a constrictor companion who just held them until I finished them off.


I am fairly certain it does not, you need someone to be unconscious or paralysed for a coup de grace otherwise it would be a standard tactic


JohnHawkins wrote:
I am fairly certain it does not, you need someone to be unconscious or paralysed for a coup de grace otherwise it would be a standard tactic

I was just curious because in the book's definition of helpless it says "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy"

What does held imply if not grappled?


Jolken Jenkins wrote:
JohnHawkins wrote:
I am fairly certain it does not, you need someone to be unconscious or paralysed for a coup de grace otherwise it would be a standard tactic

I was just curious because in the book's definition of helpless it says "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy"

What does held imply if not grappled?

Hold person and other effects that "hold" magically.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jolken Jenkins wrote:
What does held imply if not grappled?

Hold Person/Monster


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Jolken Jenkins wrote:
What does held imply if not grappled?
Hold Person/Monster

Hold Person/Monster causes paralysis, which is already on the list.


You can Grapple->Pin->Tie up which could be "bound". Of course under Tie up it says "This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). " The Pinned condition is not valid for CDG. However, under ropes it says "The DC to escape hemp rope bonds is equal to 20 + the CMB of the creature that tied the bonds." So arguably Tie up is "bound" and qualifies for CDG.

"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy"


I think the last line may be the important one here or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy
Held and Bound in place by a large constrictor sounds reasonable


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would say pinned would count, because you can't do anything and are at the mercy of whoever is pinning you. But I also don't think the grappler can deliver the CDG, another person would have to. (I'm pretty sure you need to spend a standard action to maintain the grapple. So if you spend a full round action instead on CDG you release the grapple, losing the condition for CDG to work)

So it takes at least two rounds, with multiple grapple rolls, and occupies two people. Guess that's why it's not standard tactics.


There's also a chance that, much like "Held", that the term "Bound" has nothing to do with rope, instead referring to this Core Rulebook spell:

Binding

which does have as it's first option wrapping a target in chains from which escape is impossible.

But being tied with a rope, just like with being pinned, *does* allow escape attempts, unlike any of the other conditions listed.


Quatar wrote:

I would say pinned would count, because you can't do anything and are at the mercy of whoever is pinning you. But I also don't think the grappler can deliver the CDG, another person would have to. (I'm pretty sure you need to spend a standard action to maintain the grapple. So if you spend a full round action instead on CDG you release the grapple, losing the condition for CDG to work)

So it takes at least two rounds, with multiple grapple rolls, and occupies two people. Guess that's why it's not standard tactics.

The following is assuming that pinning a foe satisfies the 'at your mercy' clause for helpless/coup de grace.

If you're mythic you could possibly pull it off as the grappler.

It would cost 1 or 2 mythic points and 2 rounds, dependent on GM call.

Use your standard to maintain the grapple, and buy another standard to 'start a full round action.' I'm pretty sure CDG is allowable by the split-fullround rules.

On your next turn you could spend your standard to deliver the CDG, but I think most GM's would ask you to spend that standard to maintain your grapple for the round and then buy another standard to 'finish' the CDG.

Being able to reliably CDG is... powerful. I could see it costing 2 mythic points easily.

Mind you this is HIWPI, and I think it's a case of 'raw probably works, but rai could go anywhere on this.'

That said, THIS would be more reliable if you've pinned your target (assuming pinning = 'at your mercy' as others above me have made a case for)

Greater Grapple (Combat) wrote:

Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action

Spend your move on maintaining, standard on initiating CDG, then finish the CDG next round, and use your move afterwards to maintain again if the opponent didn't die.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

After having given the pertinent sections a thorough read, I'd be very hesitant to allow CdG against a pinned opponent, by this reasoning:

Given : In order to perform a CdG, the opponent must have the Helpless condition.

Given : A Helpless opponent has a Dex of Zero.

Given : A Pinned opponent does not have a Dex of zero.

Therefore : A Pinned opponent is not a Helpless opponent, and so cannot have a Coup de Grace performed on them.

Sovereign Court

pinned is not helpless... you need to tie him up first then you can CdG him...


just my 2cp but pin should be help less because its pretty easy to prove IRL. BUT and a big one here a 3rd party would be necessary because holding some one down in any way to also count pinning them down does not leave you any thing you can also do. i not saying i a mast in MMA i just saying i have got in a fight with my brother a few times.


Thomas, A wrote:
just my 2cp but pin should be help less because its pretty easy to prove IRL. BUT and a big one here a 3rd party would be necessary because holding some one down in any way to also count pinning them down does not leave you any thing you can also do. i not saying i a mast in MMA i just saying i have got in a fight with my brother a few times.

There are definitely ways to pin leaving one of your hands free and able to wield a weapon. I could totally see allowing light weapons to do this or rather small things like daggers as those would actually be believable in this scenario.

This is all How I Would Play It land at the moment now though.


If you're pinned and still able to use a one handed weapon, then in PF terms you're grappled not pinned, because that's exactly what grappled is. Pinned specifically says you can't do anything but try to escape or cast spells without somatic or material components. Everything else is a no-go.

If tied up is helpless and tied up works like pinned, with the only exception that the bonds don't have to make a grapple check each turn, then pinned is helpless too.

However it takes 2-3 turns to pull off and needs 2 people working together. That's forever in a combat.
Also anyone who can easily be grappled and controlled/pinned for 2-3 turns is either a) a mook and not worth the trouble or b) being grappled by a combat monster who should be using his combat prowess more effectively.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you could kill everyone with two consecutive grapples and a third party waiting to cdg I'm pretty sure this game would suck


"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy"
The problem is that "bound" has no in game definition. All the other "conditions" that allow a CDG are either defined in game or seem to cause less discussion.

Helpless wrote:
A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).
Pinned wrote:
A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class.

Pinned is really close to, but not quite, Helpless.


Wrestling matches end at 'pinned' because those are the rules. Watch any sort of MMA and see just how passive and helpless the guy on the bottom is. Pinned or grappled by a large creature is not the same thing as 'helpless.'


Amusingly, it just occured to me that by RAW you cannot CdG someone kneeling with their neck on a headman's block...

_
glass.


glass wrote:

Amusingly, it just occured to me that by RAW you cannot CdG someone kneeling with their neck on a headman's block...

_
glass.

People usually allow someone to be treated as helpless if that person wants to be treated as helpless.

In fact, the Seraptis Demon's Gaze of Despair ability seems to assume that this is the case - it can compel creatures to attempt to kill themselves, and states that in most cases the creature will try to do so via a coup de grace on itself. This would only be possible if a creature can willingly allow a coup de grace attempt. Besides, Helpless means "Completely at an opponent's mercy". It would be silly if you couldn't allow your self to be at someone's mercy.

DEXRAY wrote:


Prd: Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound...

Prd: Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound...

Prd: Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced “coo day grahs”) to a helpless opponent....

So a pinned creature is a valid CdG target.

[Citation Needed]

Also, the pinned condition has penalties associated with it, and these penalties are NOT the same as the helpless condition. Pinned creatures lose dex bonus to AC and take a -4 penalty. Helpless opponents treat their Dex as if it were 0. If Pinned=Helpless, then the Pinned condition would say so, not add on it's own penalties that are completely redundant with the helpless condition (losing dex to ac).

EDIT: Looking over the pinned condition, it does actually use the term "Tightly Bound". Still, it clearly does not apply the helpless condition because it has it's own penalties associated, some of which are redundant with the helpless condition.


Grappled nor pinned count as helpless.

If you tie someone up, that would count as bound. You can do so after having pinned someone.

Everyone please keep in mind that specific grappler builds can pin a target in a single round. If pinning counted you could have two creatures work in tandem to kill another before it was even able to act.


FAQ also says not flat-footed if grappled or pinned.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
glass wrote:

Amusingly, it just occured to me that by RAW you cannot CdG someone kneeling with their neck on a headman's block...

_
glass.

And for good reason! (Warning: Graphic)

Sovereign Court

Ravingdork wrote:
glass wrote:

Amusingly, it just occured to me that by RAW you cannot CdG someone kneeling with their neck on a headman's block...

_
glass.

And for good reason! (Warning: Graphic)

LOL! :)


Claxon wrote:

Grappled nor pinned count as helpless.

If you tie someone up, that would count as bound. You can do so after having pinned someone.

Everyone please keep in mind that specific grappler builds can pin a target in a single round. If pinning counted you could have two creatures work in tandem to kill another before it was even able to act.

Pinned condition states the creature is tightly bound.

PRD: Conditions wrote:

Pinned

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Emphasis mine.

Here's the text on Helpless:

PRD: Conditions wrote:

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Emphasis mine again.

It seems to me that Pinned applies Helpless as well whenever pinned gets applied. Probably is NOT intent but the text seems clear.


PRD: Conditions wrote:

Pinned

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Pinned creatures can take some actions and therefore do not meet the "completely at their opponents mercy" clause.

Not helpless.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You do know how easy it would be for most monsters with the grab ability to pin someone, right? now, guess where I'm going with this... yet, these monsters prefer to use either constrict, swallow whole, and a bunch of other mechanics that are less efficient and final than CdG to proceed with their antics... maybe because you *can't* CdG a pinned character?


or action economy doesn't let you maintain the pin and CdG in the same round....


Pinned gives a -4 to AC, it does not allow for automatic hits, you must roll to hit.

Coup de Grace automatically hits.

Pinned does not allow Coup de Grace.

Even the best MMA fighter can't pin an opponent and render them totally immobile. They are still thrashing around on the ground, rolling about... the pinned person can't really do much, as per the rules, but they are NOT helpless.

They are still conscious, and able to act, in a restricted fashion.


alexd consider:

Helpless wrote:
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets

vs

Pinned wrote:

A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

Casting Spells while Pinned: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

Emphasis mine.

-4 to AC vs +4 (for the attacker) to hit are functionally equivalent, and both (the penalty and the bonus) are irrelevant to the CdG ability which is a special full round action with its own rules that allow it to auto hit, auto crit, and force the subject to make a fortitude save or die. Note that Helpless also does not allow automatic hits, yet you can CdG Helpless targets because that is in the CdG ability description.

Your realism argument also falls short; you have the same degree of leeway while bound (as with rope, chains, to a stockade or the executioner's block) as you have while bound (as with a grappling hold). Both last only as long as they are unbroken and so long as they do not come undone.

Pinned is not the same as helpless, you are correct in that - they have separate entries in the conditions appendix after-all. A person potentially has much more leeway while pinned than while unconscious; this is reflected in the text relating to what sort of actions you can perform while pinned. If you are incapable of completing these actions the two are functionally equivalent and the pin becomes redundant, but positioning allows the pinner to position the pinnee such that the pinner's allies can more effectively defeat the pinnee.

That said RAW pinned is different from helpless, and there is no explicit language in CdG, the pinned condition, or the helpless condition which says that the target of a pin is helpless or can be CdG'd. RAW it is a solid no.

EDIT: That said the hold and bound sections of the helpless conditions are redundant (hold monster etc spells inflict the paralyzed condition, they do not 'hold'). The only logical conclusion is that these words are meant to apply to other scenarios such as to pinned creatures which gives a strong RAI ruling for CdGing pinned opponents.

Note: The only thing I can find which "holds" something in pathfinder is a cage (of any size), so interestingly if you and another person participate in a cage fight (to the death) the first person to get a full round action almost certainly wins.


Like I mentioned, by the exact wording pinned would also apply helpless.

I also mentioned it's pretty stupid for that to happen and should definitely not be run that way.

This is why DM adjudication exists, to catch this kind of silly crap. Otherwise it would be possible to CDG in 2 rounds anything you could grapple/pin with alarming regularity. (Though, the respective balance of CDG vs say the suffucation spell is something else to debate entirely. They are both save or die. One can just be done as a standard action. And from range. And later, multiple targets.)

Continuing the discussion going on, though!

As for the MMA fighter example, pathfinder player characters are a lot stronger than mma fighters if they've got a decent strength score.

A str score of 22 beats the current world record for dead lifting (1017 lbs is the current record. You can 'lift, and stagger around with' up to twice max load. 22 str grants max load of 520. 1040lb 'deadlift str').

There are also pins out there that are effectively an automatic win lest you get a joint snapped in two. (See: arm bar)

I think the idea is that if you're able to get rope and tie someone up while they're being pinned it's entirely possible to use something like a dagger to slash a neck.

EDIT:
@ Trekkie90909 the wording of pinned saying they are 'tightly bound' and the wording of helpless saying 'a creature is helpless if they are .... held, bound ..... or otherwise completely at your mercy. I posted it just a little while ago. RAW would say yes this is possible.


@ hydro it's a perfectly valid 'read as intended' interpretation, but it's not explicitly stated anywhere, so it's not a 'read as written' statement. It is also directly countered by the helpless description further reading "opponent is completely at their opponent's mercy," and the pinned condition reading "can take...actions." You can (potentially) break a pin, so if you are pinned you are not necessarily helpless (completely at your opponent's mercy). RAW this is a stronger reading than that the word "bound" appears in both descriptions.

You can however be both pinned and helpless.


No, the exact wording of pinned would not imply helpless:

Quote:
A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier).

Is a pinned creature treated as if it has a dexterity of 0? No? Then it is not helpless, period.

Quote:
A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.

Two different, and contradictory conditions.


@Ozy

Not contradictory; You lose your dexterity bonus. (a positive integer by definition) Not your dexterity modifier. (any integer value)


Trekkie90909 wrote:

@ hydro it's a perfectly valid 'read as intended' interpretation, but it's not explicitly stated anywhere, so it's not a 'read as written' statement. It is also directly countered by the helpless description further reading "opponent is completely at their opponent's mercy," and the pinned condition reading "can take few actions." You can (potentially) break a pin, so if you are pinned you are not necessarily helpless (completely at your opponent's mercy). RAW this is a stronger reading than that the word "bound" appears in both descriptions.

You can however be both pinned and helpless.

You can also potentially break the rope tying you if you succeed on a nice CMB check. Does this mean you also are not helpless by the rope?

_Ozy_ you ignored the fact that it says "or" rather than "and".

It doesn't matter if they're not 'otherwise completely at my mercy'. If they are currently suffering any qualifier for helpless whatsoever they are helpless.

"Bound" is one of those qualifiers, and Pinned gives that in it's wording.

The fact that a pinned creature is not treated as dexterity 0 does not matter for qualifying a target for helpless. (This is where I think RAI and DM adjudication take over. It's very very clear that pinned is not intended to give helpless)

_Ozy_ wrote:
Is a pinned creature treated as if it has a dexterity of 0? No? Then it is not helpless, period.

Then rope doesn't work in your eyes. This is the wording of tie-up:

PRD, Combat, Grapple, Tie-Up wrote:
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

Tied up with rope is identical to pinned with the following exceptions

- Removes rolling to maintain
- sets new DC to 20 + pinner's CMB rather than just pinner's CMD
- removes auto-success from nat 20 for the one trying to escape

To say pinned would not grant helpless from a RAW standpoint is to say that being tied up does not grant helpless.


Correct, if being tied up with rope doesn't treat your dexterity as 0, then you are not helpless according to the rules.

Think about it. If you have a positive dexterity, that means you can wiggle around, avoid a blow. You are not helpless.

Whether that means being tied up with rope should be FAQ'ed to being helpless (0 Dex), or whether being pinned should also do the same is up to the devs. But as of now the rules do not impose that condition.

I didn't miss any 'or' in the statement I quoted. It is a complete statement that defines the helpless condition: you are treated as if your Dex is 0. Any condition that does not impose a Dex of 0 is not the helpless condition.


You are not helpless just because you are pinned by the rope; you can be helpless AND pinned by the rope (i.e. because you are sleeping in restraints). If you are pinned by the rope and conscious and not paralyzed and not in a cage (technically the entire setting is a cage?) etc then no, you are not helpless. This is again a RAW interpretation. You are free to read into it; the d20pfsrd does, and labels CdGing a tied up opponent as their own 'custom' content (not that that is necessarily proof of anything).

EDIT: In the scenario where you are not able to escape the rope (because the DC is so high), and cannot perform any of the other actions specifically allowed while pinned (you're gagged as well, lack components/spells) then I would adjudicate as the GM that yes you are bound and helpless. That's still a RAI ruling, but it's one I think is fair.


Trekkie90909 wrote:

@Ozy

Not contradictory; You lose your dexterity bonus. (a positive integer by definition) Not your dexterity modifier. (any integer value)

You're right, they are not mutually exclusive. You can be pinned and helpless (paralyzed). I don't think you would get the additional -4 to your AC from being pinned though.


You would actually, they're separate sources providing separate bonuses. Think of it in game: The grappler/rope has the victim bound so that his throat is exposed (pinned), inflicting an AC penalty. The victim is also helpless (cannot move out of the way) from anything -- say sleeping drugs so he takes a further -5 (more or less) to AC from having an effective dex of 0, and the executioner gets a +4 against the opponent because they can't move and it's an easy swing to decapitate the victim which has been practiced endlessly.

EDIT: Come to think of it having a dexterity score of 0 means you're unconscious. So if you're treated as having a dexterity score of 0 while helpless then you must also be unconscious? Meaning that a pin (which does not necessarily knock a creature unconscious unless they've been choked out) does not make a creature helpless.

Which gets me thinking: A pinned creature is also grappled (if in combat with another creature). A grappled creature takes a -4 penalty to dexterity. Soo... grappling or pinning a creature of 4 or less dexterity renders it helpless. :D we helped the OP.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Correct, if being tied up with rope doesn't treat your dexterity as 0, then you are not helpless according to the rules.

Think about it. If you have a positive dexterity, that means you can wiggle around, avoid a blow. You are not helpless.

Whether that means being tied up with rope should be FAQ'ed to being helpless (0 Dex), or whether being pinned should also do the same is up to the devs. But as of now the rules do not impose that condition.

I didn't miss any 'or' in the statement I quoted. It is a complete statement that defines the helpless condition: you are treated as if your Dex is 0. Any condition that does not impose a Dex of 0 is not the helpless condition.

The rules impose helpless by the very definition of 'bound'.

Helpless wrote:

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

You are massively confusing the effect of a condition with the trigger for a condition.

Triggers that cause a target to be helpless:
Paralyzed
Held
Bound
Sleeping
Unconscious

If none of these are met, but the creature is "otherwise at my mercy" then it also applies.

The effect of helpless:
Dex is treated as 0.

If the conditions worked as you are saying they do then taking any random -2 would impose 'shaken' or 'fatigued' or any number of other conditions.

The conditions themselves are not a result of the penalties they impose. They are a result of any effects applying them.

In the case of helpless, whenever any single one of the triggers are met, they are helpless.

the rules say Pinned and Tied-Up make the target bound.

If a target is bound, then the target is helpless. Helpless would then make the target have 0 dexterity.


If pinned makes you helpless, then when you are pinned you have a zero dex. Why would the pinned instead impose a lesser penalty when it is completely superseded by being helpless?


_Ozy_ wrote:
If pinned makes you helpless, then when you are pinned you have a zero dex. Why would the pinned instead impose a lesser penalty when it is completely superseded by being helpless?

Pinned doesn't need to apply zero dex. Nothing needs to give you zero dex to make you helpless.

If that's how it worked then sleeping would not give you helpless.

Pinned makes you bound. Bound confers the helpless condition.

I'm trying to convey that, as written, pinned indirectly makes you have 0 dex but does not directly apply that effect. It applies helpless which then does the application of 0 dex.


I think if pinned or tied up was supposed to make you helpless then that condition would be listed in the grapple rules.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bound: when the GM tells the player he's basically screwed and there's no way he can break from those adamantine bedposts he's been shackled to... (oh, and each of his legs are firmly held down by two grinning vampire females, while the vampire succubus boss gal paces circles around the bedroom with a sacrificial dagger, chanting something weird...)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I had this question come up in the Sunday night special. I rolled with it, because the outcome was pretty obvious even if I had said 'no you can't CDG' him. Still, I don't see pinned granting the helpless condition.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The way the rules are written if tieing someone up grants helpless (bound) then pinning does.

If pinning doesn't then neither does tieing someone up with rope.

The more I think about it the less crazy it seems too. It requires a successful grapple first. Next round requires a successful maintain and if you have greater grapple feat you can start the CDG. Next round after that you have to finish it.

Its a three round minimum process to initiate the CDG in this manner and you can't even accomplish this without greater grapple.

It also provokes two sets of AOO from splitting the cdg over two rounds, and gives the bad guys a huge chance to save their buddy from the guy bear hugging him.

The victim in question gets 2 cmb / escape artist checks vs the grappling and a Fort save vs the cdg. Of he survives the cdg he gets another check vs the grapple.

A single success on either of the first or after the cdg starts the entire chain over again.

Seems like several orders of power less than a lot of lower level spells out there.

Plus at higher levels cmd values get hilariously high.

Compare that to casting suffocation:
Standard action cast time
Ranged
Can be done without provoking
Save or go unconscious for three rounds in a row. If you succeed you're staggered and making another save vs the spell next round.


Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.

Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.


Numarak wrote:

Is pinned a condition? If answer is yes, then it is not helpless. If the result of a grapple should have been helpless, devs would have said so; instead they created the pinned condition.

Stating that pinned equates to helpless is a houserule. 2+2 equates 4. Stating that 'O' equates '0' just because they look alike is not true.

I read the rules the same way.

"pinned" and "helpless" are two different conditions. And only 1 of them allows CDGs.

1 to 50 of 135 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Coup De Grace All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.