Why are some weapon-wielding monsters so foolishly armed?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

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voideternal wrote:

My point is that the base CR 1/4 Kobold in the Bestiary should not eat up the GM's wealth pool.

...
The Bestiary cannot make assumptions about houserules. The Bestiary cannot make assumptions about how much time the GM has to alter said Bestiary. If all encounters were as well-equipped as the OP's kobolds, about 1/2 of the PC's wealth will come from the monster's pre-defined loot.

Kobolds are listed as having NPC gear, which means that as a 1st level NPC class they would have 260gp. That's a lot for the CR, but you're supposed to balance that out with monsters that give out less treasure, like the aforementioned traps:

Encounter Design wrote:
Encounters against NPCs typically award three times the treasure a monster-based encounter awards, due to NPC gear. To compensate, make sure the PCs face off against a pair of additional encounters that award little in the way of treasure. Animals, plants, constructs, mindless undead, oozes, and traps are great “low treasure” encounters.

In other words, the bestiary assumes that humanoid enemies (and other rich things like dragons) will eat up the GM's wealth pool. And the OP's suggestion to upgrade their gear with this wealth was made with this in mind.

Now, if you want to throw a lot of kobolds at the party it makes sense to reduce their budget. But you don't have to spend much to get improved weapons. Bows and crossbows are pricey, yes, but the difference between a spear and a longspear is 3gp, and it adds tactical interest. A buckler and light weapon like a handaxe adds about 10gp.


Weirdo wrote:
Kobolds are listed as having NPC gear, which means that as a 1st level NPC class they would have 260gp...

Funding 260 gp worth of gear to each individual Kobold makes no sense from an Ecology point of view. Frankly, I don't even know why the Bestiary entry for Kobold says 'NPC gear' because their gear adds up to approximately 2gp.

Weirdo wrote:
...the bestiary assumes that humanoid enemies (and other rich things like dragons) will eat up the GM's wealth pool. And the OP's suggestion to upgrade their gear with this wealth was made with this in mind.

The thing about Dragons (and the Bestiary Kobold, under the assumption that they are supposed to award 260 gp) is that the treasure is not predefined. When a busy GM adds the Adult Red Dragon directly out of the Bestiary, the GM is spending Experience Budget, but the GM still has control over how to allocate the Wealth Budget.

Had the Bestiary entry for Kobold been completely decked with full gear composed of 260 gp, the busy GM doesn't have as much freedom to decide on the kind of wealth the PCs obtain. This is because each Kobold that the PCs fights would define 260 gp worth of gear that the PCs obtain.

If the GM has an abundance of time to individually customize each Kobold, this is not a problem, because the GM can spend his own time to customize each Kobold to use whatever wealth he wants. In fact, nothing in this thread is relevant for such a GM. It's the GMs that DON'T have time that must rely on the Bestiary entry for the Kobold. And for those GMs, the Bestiary Kobold should not predefine wealth.


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Samasboy1 wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:


It's worth remembering that the "Warrior" class is an NPC class, not intended for PC use.

But I don't think of Warriors as representing militia.

For a Warrior, fighting IS their job. They just aren't heroes/PCs.

In my mind "Militia" are people who take time out of their lives to train, what you described are more like conscripts.

But I can see that that's basically *my oppinion* and that yours is equally valid: In your world they're still commoners, but they're a level or 2 higher maybe? That would work fine too.

My point is still valid. Even the average city guard is likely only familiar with a small set of weapons, and their entire life revolves around weapons and armour. They're given the opportunity to use any weapon so that the GM has more scope to equip them as befits the campaign.

As Lemeres wrote, the "Warriors" in the average Kobold tribe are more than likely hunters. Why would put on full plate when hunting rabits?

I saw a thread yesterday asking why mounts are allowed. The OP had taken Rich Parents and bought a battle-trained tiger at level 1, and it tore through everything in the first 2 adventures. Why doesn't everyone have a battle-trained tiger?

Why not give every Kobold a battle-trained tiger? Because the average Kobold doesn't have the resources for it - The average Kobold has the resources to find a spear and a sling.

If you want to up the CR, the kobolds you send at your party WOULD be equipped with better stuff (Give each kobold a battle-trained tiger and the CR will go through the roof).

The reason kobolds don't have better gear is the same reason the level 1 PC's don't start with magic weapons - it's hard to aquire that stuff. For most civilised humanoids it's fairly easy to get masterwork gear, but when you live in a cafe and haven't developed farming techniques yet, it's a bit harder to dedicate time to perfecting the art of smithing.

Shadow Lodge

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voideternal wrote:
Funding 260 gp worth of gear to each individual Kobold makes no sense from an Ecology point of view. Frankly, I don't even know why the Bestiary entry for Kobold says 'NPC gear' because their gear adds up to approximately 2gp.

Spear (2gp), sling, leather armor (10gp), other treasure. The GM is expected to fill in the other treasure.

voideternal wrote:

Had the Bestiary entry for Kobold been completely decked with full gear composed of 260 gp, the busy GM doesn't have as much freedom to decide on the kind of wealth the PCs obtain. This is because each Kobold that the PCs fights would define 260 gp worth of gear that the PCs obtain.

If the GM has an abundance of time to individually customize each Kobold, this is not a problem, because the GM can spend his own time to customize each Kobold to use whatever wealth he wants. In fact, nothing in this thread is relevant for such a GM. It's the GMs that DON'T have time that must rely on the Bestiary entry for the Kobold. And for those GMs, the Bestiary Kobold should not predefine wealth.

We're not suggesting that the Bestiary define the full 260gp of wealth. We're suggesting it define 25-60gp of it instead of 12gp of it, such that the kobolds get slightly more useful weapons.

Orcs get falchions and those cost 75gp. Add the studded leather and javelins and that's over 100gp of predefined treasure.


Stop using the "its hard to acquire argument!"

A flail is one of the most common and easily accessible weapons in the existence of ever.

Its an agricultural implement modified to fight with. Its a peasant's weapon. It is a stick, a few links of chain and a heavy metal ball with some spikes.

It requires none of the skill required to craft that a sword does. . . its not any harder to come by than a spear except that it has a 6 gold higher cost in the CRB.

6 gold! The difference between choosing an intentionally poor choice of a weapon and a better one.

I think assuming the Kobolds are hunters is fine, but its just as likely the Kobolds are farmers and therefore more likely to have a flail than a spear.

Equating having "not the worst possible choice of weapon which offers absolutely no advantage" is not the same as starting with a magic weapon.

Its also gone back and forth on the DM's time-- he doesn't have enough to swap out the gear to make better encounters, but he does have enough to define "treasures" from encounters (that the NPCs will leave in a big pile and not use against the PCs because, I don't know, Kobolds dumbs/evil/bad and like "shinies" more than they like surviving?)


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The average kobold is certainly not a farmer.

PRD wrote:
Creatures of deep, dark places, kobolds are masters of tunneling, mining, and setting traps.
PRD wrote:


As creatures of deep caverns and shadowed forests, kobolds have difficulty with light, and even a torch is uncomfortably bright to their eyes. Hence, though they are not naturally nocturnal, they rarely venture to the surface during the day.


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MrCharisma wrote:


If you want to up the CR, the kobolds you send at your party WOULD be equipped with better stuff (Give each kobold a battle-trained tiger and the CR will go through the roof).

...

Support.

The Exchange

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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

The average kobold is certainly not a farmer.

PRD wrote:
Creatures of deep, dark places, kobolds are masters of tunneling, mining, and setting traps.

...

Picks ahoy!


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Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Also, there's this.
Quote:
As creatures of deep caverns and shadowed forests, kobolds have difficulty with light, and even a torch is uncomfortably bright to their eyes.

A creature that can't even look at a torch isn't likely to spend much time in a forge. Anything made of metal is likely stolen or bought from another race.

Quote:
Yet the resentment kobolds feel toward other races is nothing compared to their animosity toward other kobold tribes that intrude on their mining operations or partake of the food sources their tribe considers its own. The resulting wars are fierce, bloody, and swift, with both tribes attempting to slay as many opponents as possible until one chief dies. Once a tribe has lost its chief, the losing tribe's demoralized survivors become slaves to the victorious tribe, and are sent into the mines to harvest out all the minerals they can for their new masters. If adventurers manage to make it through a tribe's traps, it's inevitably these same slaves who are armed and sent to confront the threat, generally with little hope of winning the ensuing battle. Though some might wonder why kobolds condemned in this way don't turn on their masters, the sad truth is that those who want to rebel are usually cut down before their attempt gets off the ground.

The "Average" CR 1/4 Kobold is more than likely a slave who's been sent out to die by their masters. Their only job is to use up invader's resources before the actual tribe has to fight them, so giving them anything the PC's might find useful is just going to end up helping the invaders.

(This brings up an interesting - if completely irrelevant - idea for moral choice in your campaign. Once (if?) the characters know those Kobolds are slaves, would killing them effect the PC's alignment?)


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Not if the slaves are trying to kill you.


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You guys win man-- Kobolds bad/evil/dumb exist for the sole purpose of being mercilessly slaughtered by PCs and should always have only equipment that provides them with no statistical advantage whatsoever.

Never mind that Orcs who also have light sensitivity are listed with Falchions-- a sword that takes a massive amount of skill and long hours at the forge to create. Or the Kobolds must be dumber/less capable than the Orcs-- despite the Orcs taking penalties to Int and Wis that Kobolds don't, perhaps they aren't as skilled in hand eye coordination despite having a bonus to dex that Orcs don't get?

Never mind that the Kobold is listed as having racial bonus in profession miner. Those Kobolds mine for ore, but then have to steal anything metal they use because, again-- Kobolds only role in the world is to be slaughtered by PCs.

They must be mining only raw gold ore because its shiny, and stacking it up in big piles while they use stone spears. Must be using stone picks to do the mining with too?


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Nathanael Love wrote:

You guys win man-- Kobolds bad/evil/dumb exist for the sole purpose of being mercilessly slaughtered by PCs and should always have only equipment that provides them with no statistical advantage whatsoever.

Never mind that Orcs who also have light sensitivity are listed with Falchions-- a sword that takes a massive amount of skill and long hours at the forge to create. Or the Kobolds must be dumber/less capable than the Orcs-- despite the Orcs taking penalties to Int and Wis that Kobolds don't, perhaps they aren't as skilled in hand eye coordination despite having a bonus to dex that Orcs don't get?

Never mind that the Kobold is listed as having racial bonus in profession miner. Those Kobolds mine for ore, but then have to steal anything metal they use because, again-- Kobolds only role in the world is to be slaughtered by PCs.

They must be mining only raw gold ore because its shiny, and stacking it up in big piles while they use stone spears. Must be using stone picks to do the mining with too?

Because obviously differences in culture and role in the world are meaningless. Every creature should be equipped with the gear most efficient at killing PCs.

There is a bit of confusion with kobolds, I'll admit. Largely linked to the conflation of their mythic origins as mining goblins with the tribal role they play in the world.


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Or the kobold in the Beastiary is the average kobold, the one adventurers are most likely to run across, and a DM can change the equipment if they want something different.
Or is the idea of all kobolds not being identical just too far fetched?


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Nathanael Love wrote:

You guys win man-- Kobolds bad/evil/dumb exist for the sole purpose of being mercilessly slaughtered by PCs and should always have only equipment that provides them with no statistical advantage whatsoever.

Never mind that Orcs who also have light sensitivity are listed with Falchions-- a sword that takes a massive amount of skill and long hours at the forge to create. Or the Kobolds must be dumber/less capable than the Orcs-- despite the Orcs taking penalties to Int and Wis that Kobolds don't, perhaps they aren't as skilled in hand eye coordination despite having a bonus to dex that Orcs don't get?

Never mind that the Kobold is listed as having racial bonus in profession miner. Those Kobolds mine for ore, but then have to steal anything metal they use because, again-- Kobolds only role in the world is to be slaughtered by PCs.

They must be mining only raw gold ore because its shiny, and stacking it up in big piles while they use stone spears. Must be using stone picks to do the mining with too?

Technically, the role Kobolds play is also the role any monster plays in Pathfinder: To get killed by PCs. Sure, there's the occasional BBEG with his "I'll get you Gadgets!" speech, where he gets away without getting killed, but he is still defeated, everybody knows the BBEG is gonna lose his life in the end. It's typical storyline writing, slaying the dragon, saving the princess, living happily ever after, blah blah blah.

If you don't like that sort of gameplay, then it seems you should be mature enough to play a different type of campaign, where the roles are reversed (the PCs are the underdogs getting hunted by other groups of adventurers).


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
You guys win man-- Kobolds bad/evil/dumb exist for the sole purpose of being mercilessly slaughtered by PCs and should always have only equipment that provides them with no statistical advantage whatsoever.

Technically, the role Kobolds play is also the role any monster plays in Pathfinder: To get killed by PCs. Sure, there's the occasional BBEG with his "I'll get you Gadgets!" speech, where he gets away without getting killed, but he is still defeated, everybody knows the BBEG is gonna lose his life in the end. It's typical storyline writing, slaying the dragon, saving the princess, living happily ever after, blah blah blah.

If you don't like that sort of gameplay, then it seems you should be mature enough to play a different type of campaign, where the roles are reversed (the PCs are the underdogs getting hunted by other groups of adventurers).

And the purpose of those other adventurers would be to be killed by the PCs.

I suppose you could run a game where the purpose was to kill the PCs, but I doubt many groups would take well to regular TPKs.


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I feel I should point out that kobolds are CR 1/4, while other Warrior 1 races are CR 1/3. Kobolds are so wimpy, they are actually less threatening than other races of the same level.


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thejeff wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
You guys win man-- Kobolds bad/evil/dumb exist for the sole purpose of being mercilessly slaughtered by PCs and should always have only equipment that provides them with no statistical advantage whatsoever.

Technically, the role Kobolds play is also the role any monster plays in Pathfinder: To get killed by PCs. Sure, there's the occasional BBEG with his "I'll get you Gadgets!" speech, where he gets away without getting killed, but he is still defeated, everybody knows the BBEG is gonna lose his life in the end. It's typical storyline writing, slaying the dragon, saving the princess, living happily ever after, blah blah blah.

If you don't like that sort of gameplay, then it seems you should be mature enough to play a different type of campaign, where the roles are reversed (the PCs are the underdogs getting hunted by other groups of adventurers).

And the purpose of those other adventurers would be to be killed by the PCs.

I suppose you could run a game where the purpose was to kill the PCs, but I doubt many groups would take well to regular TPKs.

It's the constant "Snoozeville versus Struggle" playstyle. If you play it where things are too easy or easy enough, the story becomes extremely boring and unfun to play. If you play it where the things are too hard, the story becomes impossible to properly finish, and is also unfun to play (probably because you're save-or-sucked to death).

Some players like to breeze through things. Some players like impossible challenges just to see if they can beat them, and if they do, say "Yeah, I did that, suck it Blues." If you don't like things being automatically killable or being cannon fodder, then raise the stakes. Get out of that damn straitjacket of a playstyle, mix things up, make them interesting, take a damn good look at what you can do to make even the weakest of creatures the most terrifying things to battle against, and watch the PCs struggle for their existence, fighting tooth and nail to survive.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

It's the constant "Snoozeville versus Struggle" playstyle. If you play it where things are too easy or easy enough, the story becomes extremely boring and unfun to play. If you play it where the things are too hard, the story becomes impossible to properly finish, and is also unfun to play (probably because you're save-or-sucked to death).

Some players like to breeze through things. Some players like impossible challenges just to see if they can beat them, and if they do, say "Yeah, I did that, suck it Blues." If you don't like things being automatically killable or being cannon fodder, then raise the stakes. Get out of that damn straitjacket of a playstyle, mix things up, make them interesting, take a damn good look at what you can do to make even the weakest of creatures the most terrifying things to battle against, and watch the PCs struggle for their existence, fighting tooth and nail to survive.

And into this other damn straitjacket of a playstyle.

Figure out what your players want and come up with a compromise.

Also remember that players may like easier challenges for reasons other than just breezing through things. It might let them turn down the optimization knob on their builds, while still getting what they want for an in-play challenge. Challenges also often look tougher from the player side than the GM side. Ask them if they're enjoying the level of challenge they're seeing.

Of course, if you really want to crank the knob up, don't stop by spending that equipment budget on slightly better armor and weapons - spend it on one-shot items - tanglefoot bags and other alchemical items, buffing potions and the like. You can make an encounter way above its theoretical CR. :)


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Mark Hoover wrote:

A kobold makes traps. One Pazio module had them in a dungeon with a crossbow trap. How then could they have a crossbow in a trap, but not a weapon? How do they have the Warrior NPC class (proficient in ALL Martial weapons) if they have no access to said "weapon shop?"

Finally, everyone always says: Tucker's Kobolds. Let's say you have that scenario, where you've got 50 kobolds defending some incredibly grueling gauntlet against oncoming adventurers. Presumably they'd slay some, if not ALL of their foes. What happens to their enemies' weapons?

My last 3 sets of PCs in my games have included a Halfling, grippli and another Halfling; one of the halflings and the grippli were both rangers. If those 2 fought some kobolds, got ambushed and were defeated, the kobolds would then have access to chakrams, axes, a short sword and a shortbow.

Heck YEAH they're going to use 'em!

So this is my response to "they don't have the tech"

1. they can make a trap, they can make a weapon

2. they loot the dead, like any good PC

3. if any gear was damaged they take it to the local sorcerer with the Mending cantrip, drop some gold, and they have a new weapon in their arsenal

For what it's worth, I've heard (admittedly, I can't remember where) that one of the proposed origins for the crossbow is that it was developed from an animal trap that utilized a standard bow mounted horizontally on stakes. In any case, I think the spear makes an excellent choice for a kobold from a thematic standpoint. It's multi-use, requires few metal parts, is easy to use (simple weapon), and can be wielded well in the cramped confines of a kobold warren. Plus, being two-handed, it deals better damage in the hands of the rare kobold with a Strength bonus and is easily incorporated into a variety of simple traps - pretty much the same reasons it was the standard weapon of peasant levies...


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Nathanael Love wrote:
You guys win man-- Kobolds bad/evil/dumb exist for the sole purpose of being mercilessly slaughtered by PCs and should always have only equipment that provides them with no statistical advantage whatsoever.

Awesome! I'm glad we were able to resolve this issue maturely. I hate it when arguments go on too long and become needlessly passive-aggressive. :)

Silver Crusade

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On the Tucker's Kobold thing.

Tucker's Kobolds weren't an enormous tribe of them. Tucker was basically a guy who opted to look at the lowly kobold and give them classes.

The term has generally turned into the belief you can make a lot out of a little if you use it properly, and people have mistakenly believed that this means always optimizing the individual monster.

Kobolds are a horror show because of their traps, cunning, and general sneakiness. They're based on myths people had of creatures that lived in mines and would set traps for the miners. Collapses, gas where the was no gas, dead falls, turning off their torches and the like.

Wearing heavy armor damages their stealth and spears are ideal for the tight confines of mines and caverns. Especially since most kobold tunnels are kobold sized (as in, if you're medium sized you're squeezing).

Basically, you can justify any weapon loadout. Spears just seem right for kobolds, kind of like falchion-choppas work for orcs.

Hobbos use longswords, befitting with their martial culture.
Bugbears use big scary morning stars.

Its just how the image for the monster works.


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On one hand, i agree that it should make thematical sense and that for most tribes, things like swords or lucerne hammers fit badly. On the other hand, the current standard choice is truly abysmal. I agree that kobold warriors might be hunters, but theyre probably not aiming for squirrels - thats the commoners job. More likely they aim for bigger game, thigs like deer or even boars. And while they mght not be great smiths, they are very skilled with mechanisms.
This in combination screams "crossbow" to me. Match with a longspear, and prhaps bone knives/daggers.

A few variant kobolds that i feel fit and are more reasonably armed:
Commoner hunter: lvl1 commoner, sling, bone dagger, cr 1/6
Slave warrior: -2 con/wis due to bad treatment as slaves, either large shield and club or longspear cr 1/5
Warren warrior: Hide shirt, net, large shield and light pick, bottle of acid, caltrops. Cr 1/3 if encountered in warrens where they have welltrained tactics and prepared defenses.


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Nathanael Love wrote:
You guys win man-- Kobolds bad/evil/dumb exist for the sole purpose of being mercilessly slaughtered by PCs and should always have only equipment that provides them with no statistical advantage whatsoever....

Kobold Mr.: Goodbye, dearest. I'm off to work.

Kobold Mrs.: What, in that hide? Go put on your nice leather.

Mr.: But, sweetie... it gets so hot in the mines.

Mrs.: And take your crossbow.

Mr.: But, it's so heavy. And you know the foreman loves to move me from one job to the other. I'll have to lug that thing all over the darklands.

Mrs.: Robert Q. Scalysnout! What would you do if some nasty adventurer attacked? Throw rocks? And where does that leave me and the little ones? Now, put that spear away and go get your rapier.

Mr.: My rapier?! But, the guys all carry spears! I have to carry a spear!

Mrs.: ROBERT!

Mrs.: Yes, dear...

So, your argument is: If they're not intended to be adventurer fodder, then they should arm themselves to the teeth everyday? Seems a little backwards to me...


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Just gonna say, totally off-topic—kobolds don't usually hunt hares, boars and deer.

They're kinda...underground. Rabbits are a big maybe for the higher-up ones, I guess. Actually, kobolds attacking whole wardens and wiping them clean would be kinda cool. They like to organize warden raids during breeding seasons to get lots of tasty blind babies.

Back on topic: The standard choice is supposed to be weaker to give GMs leeway. That's how all minion monsters are designed. Kobolds, orcs, goblins and hobgoblins are fodder races by default—monster humanoids that are supposed to be real, individual threats should be designed with the Codex. We start out with the weakest, most common sort of soldier and work our way up.


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This said, I would only give the fodderiest of kobolds (the defaults, of course) slings. Any kobold worth a smidgen to the tribe gets a crossbow.


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Well, different tribes are at different places. If theyre in a cave somewhat close to the surface, hunting parties that go out at night makes perfect sense. Food in the deep underground is somewhat limited, and while farming certain plants that dont require much light as well as keeping underground animals might work, any tribe that has reasonable access to the surface will probably use it as much as possible.


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Please replace every mention of "hare" with "gnome". You're triggering me with your complete lack of understanding of kobold kulture.


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Gaberlunzie wrote:
Well, different tribes are at different places. If theyre in a cave somewhat close to the surface, hunting parties that go out at night makes perfect sense. Food in the deep underground is somewhat limited, and while farming certain plants that dont require much light as well as keeping underground animals might work, any tribe that has reasonable access to the surface will probably use it as much as possible.

Most likely there would at least be a little hunting at night (darkvision and light blindness and all).

I would imagine the ones encountered during the day might be idiots that didn't go back home before sunrise. And really...would you give an idiot like that a valuable weapon to lose when he is ganged up on by adventurers (or atleast a few angry farmers with pitchforks)?


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One thought that would tie in the mining, but still technologically primitive aspect would be to give them something like bronze armor and weapons.

Though the real problem remains using the original folklore source of little monsters that set traps for miners with something intended to actually function as a primitive tribal society.


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MrCharisma wrote:


In my mind "Militia" are people who take time out of their lives to train, what you described are more like conscripts.
But I can see that that's basically *my opinion* and that yours is equally valid: In your world they're still commoners, but they're a level or 2 higher maybe? That would work fine too.

Well, to be fair, "militia" is usually just a form of conscription. Conscripts denote mandatory, involuntary military service.

Militia normally denotes part time military service or training, and is usually a legal requirement for specific groups (like all male citizens aged 18 to 45).

In either case, soldiering is not their job. They are farmers, miners, carpenters, etc. Historically, military commanders have always had a dim view of the morale, discipline, and performance of militia/conscripts.

The "average" kobold shouldn't even be a Warrior, but an Expert or even Commoner. The Bestiary kobolds being Warriors indicates they are the tribes protectors or hunters. It does make sense for the "average" members of some races to be Warriors, like Orcs, if only because their everyday lives are so full of violence.

And it doesn't really make sense that anyone is proficient in the huge range of weapons Fighters/Warriors are. No matter how they got their training (military service, mercenary, city guard, tribal warrior) it is most likely they would only have trained with a much smaller subset of weapons. But the wide range of proficiency is to allow these classes to portrait combatants of different regions/cultures/traditions without needing to alter the base class.

So far as default kobold weapon choices, with any monster changing the weapon used should be fairly easy, even on the fly. The difference in equipment value should be mostly negligible. Just view the default choices as suggestions, and swap anything you like


Are we really now arguing that one of the weakest monsters in the game is not well geared enough?

SOMETHING has to be bottom of the barrel. It was just the kobolds misfortune to BE that bottom.

Kobolds are armed like crap because their culture is cowardly AND predatory (how does that work?), extremely under educated and their species social practices are such that normal trade with others is nearly impossible.

Lacking education to make real metals or forges or proper agriculture means they are bottom rung and must make what they use from the most simple designs and common materials. Hence spears and basic (but effective) traps like pits, pungy sticks, snares, rockslides, etc.

Since the Bestiaries list the AVERAGE creatures of their type that is a safe bet that those kobolds are the norm. GM's can have exceptional individuals or even tribes (say one that serves a dragon who has decided to educate them, train them, supply them and make them better guards/servants) but those are exceptions and should be treated that way to make their story impacful.

In the end it comes down to CR. Something had to be crappy. Something had to be CR 1/4. It just happens that it is kobolds.

And while they mine it is not necessarily for ore. Maybe it is for gems (OOO SHINY). Or warrens to live in. Or for grubs to eat, etc.

Mining does not mean enough technological skill to forge either. Remember forges consume huge amounts of oxygen and fuel and create tons of heat. Assuming kobolds live in 'warrens' would indicate small tight tunnels. Smelting technology would not do well undergound without very large, open, very well ventilated area's where the heat could escape and the limited air in the tunnels would not be burned out, not to mention fuel.

So while kobolds can mine, it does not say they have superb subterranean engineering skills enough to make dwarf or even orclike tunnels and living area's. Also tied again to their low tech, uneducated tribal culture.

Ultimately, kobalds are crap because something in the game needed to be crap and it happens they pulled the short straw. It is not like Denzelians are worth any XP and that is about the only thing less than a kobald.


Gilfalas wrote:
In the end it comes down to CR. Something had to be crappy. Something had to be CR 1/4. It just happens that it is kobolds.

But being armed with a spear has nothing to do with them being CR 1/4-- having 1 level in an NPC class and taking massive stat penalties do.

A 1st level warrior Kobold with a two handed sword is still CR 1/4 . .

Gilfalas wrote:
And while they mine it is not necessarily for ore. Maybe it is for gems (OOO SHINY). Or warrens to live in. Or for grubs to eat, etc.

You don't "mine" warrens to live in or grubs to eat. Grubs don't live in rock and digging up dirt isn't mining. . . you mine Ore, maybe gems sure, but mostly ore. . .

So you're positing that Kobolds are incapable of running even a simple forge, but are still so into mining that they get a racial bonus in it?

There is NOTHING in the description that describes them as "low tech". They get no penalties whatsoever to INT (whereas Orcs do).

In fact, the ARG describes them as "Hard working, clever, and blessed with a natural talent for mechanical devices and mining".

A NATURAL TALENT FOR MECHANICAL DEVICES! That's not "Low tech!"

The Archetype in the ARG for Kobolds is a GUNSLINGER archetype. Again, not low tech. Monster codex gives them an Alchemist Archetype-- again, despite its magical nature Alchemy is not synonymous with "low tech".

I'm not seeing a single published reference to Kobolds being dumb, low tech, or otherwise incapable of crafting good weapons. . .


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Any kobold who acquires a crossbow uses it murder his rivals/siblings, then becomes 2nd level and declares himself Arch Warlord of the Eastern Fungus Bucket Kobolds. He confiscates all the metal weapons and uses them to build some traps to guard his hoard.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

i belive it's most likely a resources issue, a human in varisa may find swords and daggers with more ease than a katana or scimitar,kobolds may wield whatever weapon they can make depending on what resources they have avalible so if a particular tribe has no skilled blacksmith its more likely than not that theyll use weapons made from wood and stone


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A kobold with a greatsword and CR 1/4 might have the same CR, but he's more dangerous. That's the whole point. Why does half of this thread think the default kobold needs to be more dangerous? Why? I really don't get this, and I feel like it's the main barrier here. Show me there's a reason for you wanting kobolds to not die. Far too keen on what and how, but not so hot on why!

Whoops. Been listening to too much JCS lately. Just kidding there's no such thing.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

A kobold with a greatsword and CR 1/4 might have the same CR, but he's more dangerous. That's the whole point. Why does half of this thread think the default kobold needs to be more dangerous? Why? I really don't get this, and I feel like it's the main barrier here. Show me there's a reason for you wanting kobolds to not die. Far too keen on what and how, but not so hot on why!

Whoops. Been listening to too much JCS lately. Just kidding there's no such thing.

Oh, KC, you're are my second favorite poster.


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Ignoring the classed NPC stuff for the moment, the kobold is currently roughly on par with where it should be according to the general monster design guidelines, which only go down to CR 1/2.
Hp are low for CR 1/2, probably right for 1/4.
AC is high.
Attack is a point high, damage low, for a 1/2.

Bump their AC up with better armor and give them higher damage weapons and you're pushing them way out of the proper range - but weirdly so. Hard to damage, but die if you do hit them. With better weapons, they'd still be hitting too well, but now doing damage almost on par with CR 1/2.

Whatever the NPC guidelines say, with gear to give them a couple points of AC and a couple points more damage - especially the light crossbow, they're at least CR 1/2.


thejeff wrote:

Ignoring the classed NPC stuff for the moment, the kobold is currently roughly on par with where it should be according to the general monster design guidelines, which only go down to CR 1/2.

Hp are low for CR 1/2, probably right for 1/4.
AC is high.
Attack is a point high, damage low, for a 1/2.

Bump their AC up with better armor and give them higher damage weapons and you're pushing them way out of the proper range - but weirdly so. Hard to damage, but die if you do hit them. With better weapons, they'd still be hitting too well, but now doing damage almost on par with CR 1/2.

Whatever the NPC guidelines say, with gear to give them a couple points of AC and a couple points more damage - especially the light crossbow, they're at least CR 1/2.

Hobgoblin-- CR 1/2; AC 16= CR 3 on the chart; high attack +4= CR 2 on the chart; HP 17= CR 1; Average damage-- 6.5 equal essentially to CR. Verdict-- Hobgoblin above CR 1/2 in four obvious ways. . .

Orc-- CR 1/3; AC 13- between CRs 1 and 2 on the chart; high attack +5,between CRs 2 and 3. . . HP 6 below CR 1/2 so on target; average damage 9-- between CR 1 and 2
Verdict-- Orc above CR 1/3 in 3/4 ways. . .

Should I go on?

Drow AC 15, +3 attack, DC 13 save (should be less than 11) for CR 1/2 . . .

These guidelines don't seem to apply to any other humanoid except Kobolds.


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Nathanael, I don't mean to push you, but as the most active speaker in the "kobold lobby" I'm hoping to hear your thoughts on my shameless referencing important question. Why must the default kobold be made more dangerous? What's broken here?


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I didn't mean for this to be about kobolds, I just didn't have a better example. However there are CR 7 kobolds in the Monster Codex and those monsters are measured in CR by their class levels, so I guess that's a good place to start.

1. Tech: these creatures gain a bonus to trapmaking, a craft skill. They are, however in the fluff noted as being excellent miners. WHAT ARE THEY MINING, AND WHY? If metal, why can't they have decent weapons as fits their Warrior NPC levels? Axes made of stone and bronze go back to primitive man; why not Int 10 mining tribal monsters?

2. Economy: who are they mining/trapmaking FOR? WHY are they so good at stealth? For fun? Is sneaking up on people comedy among kobolds? No, I'd postulate they are actively stalking the dozens of races they have a grudge against, some of whom (Gnomes) are Small sized.

3. Warriors: I get it - their "proficient with all Martial weapons" might just be the versatility to adapt to any simple/martial weapon they find lying about. However why are these creatures, who unlike commoners or experts are SOLELY interested in battle (the NPC class is Warrior after all) not innovating new weapons like the goblin dogchopper?

If a culture is capable of innovations like "Tucker's Kobolds" why can't they make longer daggers (shortswords) or primitive hunting bows (shortbows) like many primitive tribal cultures in RL?

I think all of those arguments are silly, but that's just my OPINION and is not meant to be definitive or a rebuttal of your worldview. However I'd say CR is my primary reason for adhering to poor weapon choices.

A kobold (for lack of a better example) with a normal 1hand spear is CR 1/4; a kobold with a crossbow, leather armor and a buckler attacking 1/round while taking 5' steps, possessing a melee AC of 16 with a Ranged att of lt x-bow +4 (1d6) with the Point Blank Shot feat is probably closer to a CR 1/3 than 1/4.

Still, I like what Jimmy J-bird says above: each GM can outfit their monsters as they see fit.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Nathanael, I don't mean to push you, but as the most active speaker in the "kobold lobby" I'm hoping to hear your thoughts on my shameless referencing important question. Why must the default kobold be made more dangerous? What's broken here?

Because there is no logical reason for it whatsoever.

The Kobold warrior is trained in better weapons, proficient in better armor, from a society capable of creating better equipment, and yet Kobolds as a whole have decided to use the single worst weapon in the entire game.

The one weapon with absolutely no advantage of any kind-- has to be used two handed, but does the same damage as one handed weapons, doesn't have reach, can't be thrown. . . it makes no sense.

It also makes no sense from everything described about them-- love making complex traps, masters at mining-- you want to sell me on them using Picks because they are miners I'll buy it. Or crossbows to go with the traps.

The ABSOLUTE only logical reason for this society to be equipped like this is "so they are easy for PCs to kill".

And I just don't buy that as a valid reason for them to be equipped as such-- these are sentient creatures. They should act in their own best interests, not exist solely to be slaughtered by the protagonists.

And maybe part of the problem is that the spear has absolutely no advantage to using it whatsoever. Its been mentioned before but just swapping it for a long spear at least give it a modicum of usefulness. . .


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Personally, I see it as kobolds using all that metal and ingenuity to make traps. If you're fighting adventurers, either your tribe has decided you can best serve the collective as fodder, or something has gone very wrong for your tribe. As such, the majority of resources are put into the traps, locks and other "stay away" measures, which are the safest bet.

Kobolds don't make dogslicers because they're too busy making dogsplatters.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:

A kobold with a greatsword and CR 1/4 might have the same CR, but he's more dangerous. That's the whole point. Why does half of this thread think the default kobold needs to be more dangerous? Why? I really don't get this, and I feel like it's the main barrier here. Show me there's a reason for you wanting kobolds to not die. Far too keen on what and how, but not so hot on why!

Whoops. Been listening to too much JCS lately. Just kidding there's no such thing.

No, you're right of course Cleavy McKoboldpants. Some creatures were just born to die - that's the meta reason that justifies poor weapon choice and I'm ok with that for mooks. I think all of this stems from the fact that, without changing anything in the standard kobold build other than shortbows I made a gauntlet of an area in a dungeon. The kobolds were secondary; their placement in Full Cover was primary. Suddenly my players freaked saying "HOW COULD KOBOLDS HAVE SHORTBOWS YOURE THE DEVIL!!!" when I started questioning "why NOT?"


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Why would you even use shortbows? Those have to deal with Strength penalties! Crossbows, man. Crossbows.


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Why would you even use shortbows? Those have to deal with Strength penalties! Crossbows, man. Crossbows.

If they are in close quarters, why not alchemist's fire or acid vials.

Throw in a couple of Tanglefoot bags so the party has difficulty closing.


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I'd imagine there's a cultural deal too. If the best sword in the world is a Katana, let's say, why didn't everyone on Earth use them?

They may have training in a specific weapon because it's easy to learn, or allow them a certain amount of organization.


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Also, it wasn't really.


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Mark Hoover wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

A kobold with a greatsword and CR 1/4 might have the same CR, but he's more dangerous. That's the whole point. Why does half of this thread think the default kobold needs to be more dangerous? Why? I really don't get this, and I feel like it's the main barrier here. Show me there's a reason for you wanting kobolds to not die. Far too keen on what and how, but not so hot on why!

Whoops. Been listening to too much JCS lately. Just kidding there's no such thing.

No, you're right of course Cleavy McKoboldpants. Some creatures were just born to die - that's the meta reason that justifies poor weapon choice and I'm ok with that for mooks. I think all of this stems from the fact that, without changing anything in the standard kobold build other than shortbows I made a gauntlet of an area in a dungeon. The kobolds were secondary; their placement in Full Cover was primary. Suddenly my players freaked saying "HOW COULD KOBOLDS HAVE SHORTBOWS YOURE THE DEVIL!!!" when I started questioning "why NOT?"

There have been a couple of in-game reasons as to their weapons choice in this thread, it just whatever you choose to accept.

(Also their stealth bonus is probably more related to sneaking away as opposed to sneaking up on.)


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Just for comparison, in the Monster Codex, they stat Kobold Snipers (Fighter 1).

Equipped with studded leather, short swords, MASTERWORK light crossbows, and alchemist fire.

Its still only a CR 1/2 (which is easily explained by having a PC class, instead of an NPC class).

You could easily swap its Point Blank and Precise Shot feats for Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus for a more melee focused combatant.

And there is no in-game reason for the Bestiary kobold's weapon choice. Just accept that and change it to your fancy.


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Mark Hoover wrote:
2. Economy: who are they mining/trapmaking FOR? WHY are they so good at stealth? For fun? Is sneaking up on people comedy among kobolds? No, I'd postulate they are actively stalking the dozens of races they have a grudge against, some of whom (Gnomes) are Small sized.

The big bad monster of the week.

Remember, kobolds are often bullied into being the subservient race of whatever local creatures have even a little strength.

From being forced to give every scrap of iron to the orc war machine to looking for every gold nugget to please their dragon overlord, there are a lot of good reasons why kobolds might not have time or resources for making good weapons.

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