In a Campaign W / Longer Adventuring Days, Is The Wizard Balanced?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I know, I know, this thread is probably doomed. At least it's not about dead babies this time.

I'm really curious about this. If a campaign forces longer adventuring days—through time constraints, organized enemies, and non-campable areas—does the wizard more-or-less break even with his martial buddies?

Let's keep this fairly focused. No arguing about fighters or monks or rog—ooh, I just remembered I don't have to worry about quite so many rogue debates anymore! Well, anyways, let's steer clear of those classic sidetreks.


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Overall, I wouldn't say so. It certainly makes casters conserve their resources a bit more, but it doesn't change the fundamental differences in how the classes operate. At best, it just means that after the caster dominates X number of encounters he runs out of steam and the party has to play with the casters as relative dead weight.


Only if you're breaking the CR system to a certain degree.

Remember that a CR equivalent encounter should drain about 25% of resources.

So theorhetically about 4 such encounters is the most a group can take.

However, optimization and tactics on either side can stretch or constrain this.

There's also a question of spell efficiency. Some spells are simply more efficient in how they handle an enemy than others. A single haste spell can ultimately cause a lot more damage than a fireball particularly over multiple encounters if spaced close together as has been suggested with time constraints.

Longer adventuring days encourage more cooperation with more efficient resource classes but don't arguably affect the power level of anything. Simply makes them more conservative.


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Unfortunately there are things many resource efficient classes simply cannot do without dropping large sums of gold on expensive magic items.

Unless they have access to flight or specialize in using a bow (not just have one, they have to be good to get past DR), a low level martial cannot effectively engage a flying enemy with a decent DR. A similar situation occurs with access to climb/flight and enemies with climb speeds, or water breathing and enemies in aquatic environments.

Without access to invisibility countering effects like see invisibiliy, glitterdust or faerie fire, low level martials cannot effectively engage invisible enemies.

Without battlefield control backing them up, a low level martial will find it extremely difficult to survive assaulting a well defended position.

Without Protection from X or Suppress Charms and Compulsions, a fighter cannot deal with "minion-maker" magical effects on themselves or their allies like the charm and dominate line of spells.

The fact is that casters can do things that a)need to be done, and b)cannot be done by non-magical means. This makes them indespensible (barring blowing large sums of gold on magic items so martials can be ghetto casters). Nothing martials do is irreplacable. All 3/4 BAB casters can be built to deal damage by hitting with a weapon (albeit with some sacrifice to their casting). Meat shield duty can be covered by summons or replaced by BFC. Even 1/2 Casters can kill effectively using debuffs+SoL/SoD, summoning or appropriately modified blasts.

The reason casters often don't do these things is because it is more resource efficient to let the martial handle it and save the caster juice for mission critical things that can't be dealt with via greatsword+power attack. Plus it is always nice to not make you friend Bob and his trip fighter feel useless by dealing 70 damage+Daze in a 40ft wide area, DC21 reflex halves and negates daze. Casters can get by without martials though. Martials cannot get by without casters. Not unless the campaign features a narrow set of enemies that don't require solutions martials just don't have, or the campaign features the ludicrous sums of gold and magical items necessary to fake being a caster.

Sovereign Court

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I personally think wizards achieve more by using their spells to work together with the martial PCs, than by trying to win encounters directly on their own.

Using Create Pit to force enemies into the formation the barbarian wants them to be in, for example.

Casters are at their best as force multipliers; but in any multiplication, you get more if the thing you're multiplying was big to begin with.


Not really. At higher levels they get so many spells they will always have spells left over, and they can often cast just one or two spells, and just watch the rest of the party mop the opponents up.


The wizard is not the one that surffers most from this. Depending on the level there are several things that can keep a wizard relevant also if you go all the way to 8 encounters pr Day. But they wont be winning alone like they can in a 15 minute workday. But if it is low to low mid levels. Barbars, bloodragers and bards and others suffer more IMOP, and after that the wizard should stay relevant also with 10 encounters pr Day. But you May want to make it clear that it is likely that there will be Lots of figths between rest periods.


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I don't think longer days throw the wizard off; the player just needs to know they're possible. Consider: the wizard begins play with 2d6/10, avg 70 GP. That's enough for 4 level 1 spell scrolls, a flask of acid and 10 GP worth of other gear. These spell scrolls, plus acid splash augmented by the Acid Flask is enough to guarantee 4 hours of armored fight contribution (4 scrolls: mage armor).

Tack on a universalist with Hand of the Acolyte throwing out a dagger too, plus their NORMAL spells/day and if the fights were equal CR, CR-1 or CR+1 he could probably keep pace with the martials in being able to contribute.

As levels go up he gains resources which, if spent wisely (utility scrolls, wands of infernal healing/mage armor) keep him in the fight for all day. Also bear in mind that the vanilla mage also has either an item that gives him back 1 spell (bonded item) or a familiar that carries a TON of extra utility with it.

I think when wizards or spellcasters in general fall down its because of poor planning or resource allocation on the part of the players. If you tell a sorcerer player up front that there may be days when they'll be called upon to fight maybe 10 fights over the course of 8 hours, that player can easily spend starting gold, a feat or skills at least to garner the resources needed to pull this off. If however they don't think about HOW they'll contribute for 8 hours, there'll be a problem.

Finally I'm wondering: did the OP mean only surviving fights for 8 hours in an adventuring day? Again, this comes down to planning on the part of the player.

If the party is going to be in a non-campable area (like a dungeon) and they're going to be stuck there for days, there are still a TON of things the wizard has going for them. They have 3-4 cantrips and a familiar or bonded item right at 1st level. Consider taking the familiar - say, an owl.

The 4 PCs are down in the dungeon, the wizard has taken the following cantrips (thinking ahead to being stuck down here): Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation. He also has his owl. Said owl has amazing stealth skills and is size Tiny so it can get into almost any position. The monsters down here have to be eating something, not just each other; most dungeons have mundane insects, bats and rats no?

Now you have a skilled low-light predator (the owl) helping the PCs locate underground game and potentially, if it's mundane enough attacking said game for you. You've also got a way to create a clean area for sleeping, do some minor damage and create plenty of diversions to keep monsters at bay. These tricks of the wizard's can go on all day.

If you add that in with Survival checks to find food and water underground, Stealth used for scouting by the entire party, and the orisons/cantrips of any other spellcaster(s) in the party and you've got more than enough utility to survive for 8 hours.

Finally, a note on scrolls: to craft a spell scroll you need 3 things: roughly 2-8 hours of time, gold for materials and the spell you're going to add. If the party contains another spellcaster they can drop one of their spells into the scroll instead of yours. Depending on your GM you might be able to buy materials ahead of time.

If your party has finished an adventure and is back out on the road bringing extra scroll material might be worth it. Take a couple hours, drop a scroll, then survive until morning. Now you don't HAVE to study that spell again and you've got it in reserve for when you need it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Overall, I wouldn't say so. It certainly makes casters conserve their resources a bit more, but it doesn't change the fundamental differences in how the classes operate. At best, it just means that after the caster dominates X number of encounters he runs out of steam and the party has to play with the casters as relative dead weight.

Not running 15 minute days goes a long way towards equalizing things.


I suspect most people don't consider spamming Acid splash, even with an extra point of damage, as "keeping pace". Even if they have mage armor up, so they're not quite so easy to kill.
It might be better than a crossbow. (touch attack, but less damage)

And the owl works until something eats it. It also can't scout in total darkness and can't report what it finds.


As others have written it weakens the first few levels of casters but that of some martial classes, too. At higher levels it does little because casters have so many spells and special powers to fight a lot of fights. But it clearly depends on which school/school power the wizard chooses. Rolling multiple times on initiative does little to help with that. Other school powers are fit to dominate level 1 games.


LazarX wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Overall, I wouldn't say so. It certainly makes casters conserve their resources a bit more, but it doesn't change the fundamental differences in how the classes operate. At best, it just means that after the caster dominates X number of encounters he runs out of steam and the party has to play with the casters as relative dead weight.
Not running 15 minute days goes a long way towards equalizing things.

I don't see how that has the slightest relevance to anything I said.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

I personally think wizards achieve more by using their spells to work together with the martial PCs, than by trying to win encounters directly on their own.

Using Create Pit to force enemies into the formation the barbarian wants them to be in, for example.

Casters are at their best as force multipliers; but in any multiplication, you get more if the thing you're multiplying was big to begin with.

The issue with this is that Wizards would be better working with another caster (preferably a different caster) instead. It will always be more efficient. I mean if all you have is a martial PC sure, but martial PCs tend to be resource drains on casters. They need Fly, Haste, Protection from X, etc. and they can't provide their own. Another Caster conversely doesn't drain these resources since they can provide their own and thus tend to be resource surpluses.

Shadow Lodge

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My short answer is yes.

Many of the APs have sections which span many encounters over the full duration of a day - encounters in the early morning, encounters in the afternoon and encounters at night - as events are unfolding at a location.

In addition, with the PCs "on location" and with some looming threat of doom, there's no "crafting time" or detour to town to pick up consumable magic items like specific wands, scrolls and potions (if the nearby town even has them).

This does a few things:
1. For "hour duration" buffs, they aren't available for 100% of the encounters. Without a readily available mage armor wand, and with encounters taking place in hour units but at 3 different times of the day, characters can't have Mage Armor or Barkskin up for every encounter, making mundane armor much more valuable.

2. Casters tend to need to be more generalist versus damage-dealers. For games like this, an evoker runs out of spells too quickly to blast every round and at the same time, the party needs utility abilities like glitterdust, calm emotions, fly, protection from evil, etc. Thus the casters don't prepare as many spells to blast or self-buff themselves and instead reserve them for when that utility is really needed.

The game swings heavy towards spell-casters (especially hybrids like an inquisitor or magus) when it only involves "10-12 rounds a day" because those classes can essentially be fully buffed and contributing at peak every round.

I've always found home games/campaigns/APs much more balanced than Organized Play for this reason (barring exceptions of course - like Kingmaker).


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Does longer adventuring days mean more travel and walking but still 4 encounters? No, this changes nothing.

Does longer adventuring days mean more encounters? In that case, maybe, but maybe not.

To clarify, you should be having 4 CR-appropriate encounters per day, and that should consume enough resources (prepared spells, HP, potions, whatever) that it would be very dangerous to have a 5th encounter. Yeah, yeah, we know, a good group can do more, but I'm talking baselines here, like 4 CRB "Iconics" in Rise of Runelords.

Now, if you want 5 encounters, then a couple of them should be weaker than normal, maybe APL-1 or APL-2. If you want 6 encounters, then most of them should be weaker than normal. If you want 8 encounters, then all of them should be noticeably weaker than normal. Etc.

Make the encounters weak enough, your wizard can contribute with his crossbow. Firing off a couple Acid Splashes or maybe a Magic Missile from time to time. Heck, if they're super weak, he can just bop stuff on the head with his staff, Gandalf-style. So if you go for lots of weak encounters, the wizard will be just fine, but the player will be bored because he's not doing anything but staff-melee and cantrips. Then when you get to a challenging BBEG, the wizard still has tons of resources and goes nova. You didn't balance anything at all.

Make the encounters too strong, and after about 4 of them, maybe 5, the group will be out of resources, especially the wizard and/or healer, and they'll demand a rest. You won't have stretch the adventuring day very much, if at all, so you didn't balance anything after all.

Theoretically, somewhere in-between is probably a sweet-spot. The encounters are weaker, but still strong enough that the wizard burns a few real resources in each encounter. This lets him string out his resources over a longer adventuring day but prevents him from saving it all up to go nova on the BBEG.

If you can find that Goldilocks-zone, assuming it exists, then you can stretch out the adventuring day and dilute the wizard's power somewhat.


wakedown wrote:

My short answer is yes.

Many of the APs have sections which span many encounters over the full duration of a day - encounters in the early morning, encounters in the afternoon and encounters at night - as events are unfolding at a location.

In addition, with the PCs "on location" and with some looming threat of doom, there's no "crafting time" or detour to town to pick up consumable magic items like specific wands, scrolls and potions (if the nearby town even has them).

This does a few things:
1. For "hour duration" buffs, they aren't available for 100% of the encounters. Without a readily available mage armor wand, and with encounters taking place in hour units but at 3 different times of the day, characters can't have Mage Armor or Barkskin up for every encounter, making mundane armor much more valuable.

That is only true at low levels. And not even really then. At level 6 with a cheaply affordable (and one of my favorite items) Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, you are looking at a 12 hour buff. Eventually casters will have buffs lasting for more then 2 days, providing defense without dipping into a given days spell resources. Furthermore, 10 minute/minute per level spells should only be cast before investigating a dangerous area, or when you think combat is likely. Using SWAT style play, you should have many rounds left on a 10 minute/per level spell after clearing a dungeon.

wakedown wrote:

2. Casters tend to need to be more generalist versus damage-dealers. For games like this, an evoker runs out of spells too quickly to blast every round and at the same time, the party needs utility abilities like glitterdust, calm emotions, fly, protection from evil, etc. Thus the casters don't prepare as many spells to blast or self-buff themselves and instead reserve them for when that utility is really needed.

Evoking is rarely cost efficient. Smart casters are using spells like Color Spray, Create Pit, Black Tentacles, etc. to completely obviate threats rather then merely damage them while providing efficient buffs to increase defense and damage output. Calm Emotions is not really a utility ability that should be being prepared regularly. Furthermore, past level 5 casters have plenty of spells, and a caster past level 11 running out of spells has never happened at my table even on the longest of adventure days (10+ encounters).

Sovereign Court

Yes - though still not at very high levels.

And you don't have to actually break the CR system to do it.

If you go for 4-5 encounters per day where CR=APL, you're following the CR system. However - that's actually not the only way to do it. (though seemingly the most common)

You're also following the system if you have a dozen or more encounters per day with CR a few points below APL and one at APL. Until high levels, a wizard probably won't be able to contribute much if at all for some of them. Said lower CR encounters are also generally more of a threat to wizards than martials. (martials often can only be hit on a 20 by foes with CR less than APL)

In the latter case - the caster/martial disparity doesn't happen until higher levels.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Yes - though still not at very high levels.

And you don't have to actually break the CR system to do it.

If you go for 4-5 encounters per day where CR=APL, you're following the CR system. However - that's actually not the only way to do it. (though seemingly the most common)

You're also following the system if you have a dozen or more encounters per day with CR a few points below APL and one at APL. Until high levels, a wizard probably won't be able to contribute much if at all for some of them. Said lower CR encounters are also generally more of a threat to wizards than martials. (martials often can only be hit on a 20 by foes with CR less than APL)

In the latter case - the caster/martial disparity doesn't happen until higher levels.

OTOH, in the dozen weak encounters case, the casters are probably just sitting back bored, while the martials wipe stuff without raising a sweat.

Then you hit the final semi-tough encounter and the casters nova and it goes away.
The balance isn't any better, but the casters were bored most of the time.

Unless you set up the encounters so they're ambushes or some other way the weak enemies can easily reach the squishies - forcing them to use up spells to defend themselves. Which works until they're out of spells and die.


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thejeff wrote:


Unless you set up the encounters so they're ambushes or some other way the weak enemies can easily reach the squishies - forcing them to use up spells to defend themselves. Which works until they're out of spells and die.

Generally agree, I just have to make one small change:

Unless you set up the encounters so they're ambushes or some other way the weak enemies can easily reach the squishies - forcing them to use up spells to defend themselves. Which works until they're out of spells and they rest to regain spells using any one of several spells that make it hard to prevent casters from resting.

Sovereign Court

thejeff wrote:

OTOH, in the dozen weak encounters case, the casters are probably just sitting back bored, while the martials wipe stuff without raising a sweat.

Then you hit the final semi-tough encounter and the casters nova and it goes away.
The balance isn't any better, but the casters were bored most of the time.

A system where the martials do most of the work most of the time, and casters step up for the tough encounters? Sounds like decent balance to me.

(And some spells -mostly ignored now- which give multiple little uses over several rounds would be handy for the lesser fights instead of using a crossbow. Some of it would just be shifting play style. It'd also make the sorceror's extra spells more handy vs wizard. Currently they rarely come up except for the top spell level.)

Is it the best form of balance? Maybe not. But it's certainly a form of it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
thejeff wrote:


Unless you set up the encounters so they're ambushes or some other way the weak enemies can easily reach the squishies - forcing them to use up spells to defend themselves. Which works until they're out of spells and die.

Generally agree, I just have to make one small change:

Unless you set up the encounters so they're ambushes or some other way the weak enemies can easily reach the squishies - forcing them to use up spells to defend themselves. Which works until they're out of spells and they rest to regain spells using any one of several spells that make it hard to prevent casters from resting.

The counter to that is time dependent scenarios. Where you have a limited amount of time to get things done, and especially if you're racing opposition to the same goal. Granted, in murderhobo campaigns, this isn't a help, but I've never had an interest in GMing such.

I've yet to see in about four decades of gaming, the astounding amount of caster dominance that people in this venue claim is prevalent as the Black Plague once was. Maybe it's the people I've gamed with, combined with my own gaming style when I myself run casters.

Sovereign Court

Anzyr wrote:

they rest to regain spells using any one of several spells that make it hard to prevent casters from resting.

Those are one of the main reasons that I mentioned it not changing balance much at higher levels. In addition - the OP's premise was based around longer adventuring days being forced. (time limit for objective etc)

Sovereign Court

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LazarX wrote:


I've yet to see in about four decades of gaming, the astounding amount of caster dominance that people in this venue claim is prevalent as the Black Plague once was. Maybe it's the people I've gamed with, combined with my own gaming style when I myself run casters.

I think that part of it is that most people don't actually play at high levels. (I've only played in one campaign past level 12ish - back in 3.5, and it started at 6 & there was a campaign reason to skip another 2-3 levels later.)

Also - much of the caster dominance is based around rules manipulation which I don't see any DM I've met ever actually allowing.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
LazarX wrote:


I've yet to see in about four decades of gaming, the astounding amount of caster dominance that people in this venue claim is prevalent as the Black Plague once was. Maybe it's the people I've gamed with, combined with my own gaming style when I myself run casters.

I think that part of it is that most people don't actually play at high levels. (I've only played in one campaign past level 12ish - back in 3.5, and it started at 6 & there was a campaign reason to skip another 2-3 levels later.)

Also - much of the caster dominance is based around rules manipulation which I don't see any DM I've met ever actually allowing.

The argument seems to be that because someone can write it up as a theoretical scenario, it MUST be omnipresent at the majority of campaigns at that level.

I'm playing Wrath of the Righteous at 15th level, and the dominant players at this point, are the Zen Archer monk and Archer Ranger.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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It's more because when the casters are spent, the adventuring day is done. No casters, no healing, and going into a fight with partial HP is a huge risk in PF.

That shows you where the importance is. That people go along with it instinctively is fine, but when you step back and analyze things, you realize that your casters dictate the length of your adventuring day because of the things they can do.

Unless you give the martials tons of tools to replicate what casters can do for them...marginally possible at high level play for rangers and possibly paladins, but a big stretch for barbs and only possible with tons of gold for fighters.

Take your wizard and entirely change his spell load out. he will immediately change the entire way the party functions in combat. The martials always bring the same thing. The casters dominate, even if their style is not to crow about it.

==Aelryinth


At 1st level you could have a wizard with a 16 AC (Armor +4 [Mage Armor], Dex +2) hanging in the back and attacking with a Ranged Touch attack dealing 2-4 damage/round. 3 damage is roughly 1/4 of the total HP of the typical CR1 monster and their attack is a +2 targeting Touch so more than needed to hit the typical CR1 monster. This means they are contributing about 1/4 to resolve every CR1 fight which is consistent with the CR system.

The owl may be touched with a Prestidigitation which produces a candleflame worth of light. This is enough for it's low-light vision to see 10'. You might also create Dancing Lights and have it scout from the areas of Dim Light created from these. Finally yes, the owl cannot speak and can get eaten; there are always risks and potential ways around these based on ingenuity, other spells and GM approval.

My point though is that, even from first level the wizard has SOME level of permanent, renewable magical utility that lasts them and their party all day. If the point of the OP wasn't strictly the perpetuation of combat but rather a balance between fighting conflicts, social conflicts, skill challenges and other obstacles to be overcome with PC abilities the wizard has enough in the tank, even at 1st level to have a way to contribute in many scenarios and all day long.

This falls apart in my opinion once monsters are not bothered by cantrips.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

Unless you give the martials tons of tools to replicate what casters can do for them...marginally possible at high level play for rangers and possibly paladins, but a big stretch for barbs and only possible with tons of gold for fighters.

Take your wizard and entirely change his spell load out. he will immediately change the entire way the party functions in combat. The martials always bring the same thing. The casters dominate, even if their style is not to crow about it.

==Aelryinth

At those high levels, fighters SHOULD be spending resources on acquiring supplementary items, a decent ranged weapon if they are melee, if they're frugal, potions of flying and darkvision if needed. A wizard who buffs a good martial or group of martials generally gets better return than firing the spell himself.

Silver Crusade

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Longer adventuring days tends to equate to different resource expenditure.

I've run a few games from 1-high teens, through 3.5. My Pathfinder group is currently at level 15.

The spellcasters who end up the most effective are the ones who invest in long duration spells, or who learn to nurse their damage dealing spells.

Surprisingly, good high level wizards learn judgement when it comes to utilizing their spells. Bad ones, don't.

In general, short term buffs are used sparringly, if at all. Longer days, and more spread out or lopsided encounters (past level 11 or so, you should toss the guidelines on challenge ratings) also negate the 'spellcaster advantage' in my experience.

They negate it because it ups the lack of predictability on which a lot of casters demand. I've had to teach my players (which I can since we all start at level 1 in a campaign) that on an adventure, situations rapidly become unpredictable.

I've had guys show up at an undead dungeon, loaded with anti-undead stuff, to come back up and find a group of elementals waiting for them. Or prepare for social encounters and get bushwhacked by teleporting fiends. When the bad guys are as mobile as the heroes, a lot of the 'mage bypass' spells don't function as well. A lot of the old scry and die stuff also has hidden fail points (volcano lairs! :D ) as well.

I don't entertain 'Time Stop makes me the most powerful' nonsense, that spell doesn't show up until so late that your opponents have their own shennigans to help with it.

The more martial classes benefit by longer days because they, for a certain definition, are always ready. Sword is an ample solution to damn near everything. The fighter doesn't run out of blade, and he can whallop a zombie as easily as a lemure. A wizard who's carting around remove paralysis spells when fighting giant ants is in trouble, but one who's fighting ghouls really needs them.

Also, when you can't squat down and wait, when you have to press on at half hit points, bleeding, having fought through an 'unfair' meat grinder, that's when real heroes shine.


Just a Guess wrote:

As others have written it weakens the first few levels of casters but that of some martial classes, too.

Not quite to the same level, though. A barbarian without rage still probably invested in Strength and Constitution, which are good even without rage. A wizard without spells invested in Intelligence. So, he can help with Knowledge skills, but otherwise he's gotta lean on abilities he invested way less in. :P


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I think there's some confusion too that caster dominance is about damage. In truth, the martials do more damage on average without trying as hard. It's especially hard to touch the dpr of a basic two-hander barbarian.

Caster dominance is more meta. Its the ability to change the battlefield and break the regular rules.


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True, but when the caster runs out of spells, he can't even begin to do that. When the barbarian runs out of rage, he can still do his job, just not quite as well.

Attrition does affect classes, but it definitely affects primary casters more because spells are all they're built for.


In the current campaign I'm playing in we are having long adventuring days and it does make a difference. A significant difference at low levels (1-3) less so at medium to high level, yet there is still a noticeable impact on spell-casters.

However, you need house rules to support it. We have banned all ability score enhancement magical items, use 3/4 BAB saving throws, no touch AC (instead we use a Reflex save) and use eternal wands 2/day 50 charges.

Shadow Lodge

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
True, but when the caster runs out of spells, he can't even begin to do that. When the barbarian runs out of rage, he can still do his job, just not quite as well.

And the fighter does his job at the same level all day long, with his only limited resource being hit points (and they are a limited resource for everyone).


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Kthulhu wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
True, but when the caster runs out of spells, he can't even begin to do that. When the barbarian runs out of rage, he can still do his job, just not quite as well.
And the fighter does his job at the same level all day long, with his only limited resource being hit points (and they are a limited resource for everyone).

Also assuming he's not using consumables or caster buffs to keep up.

And the only thing really keeping him going are those cheap wands of CLW. Otherwise he's done right after the healer runs out of curing magic.

Shadow Lodge

Again, he's not alone in that, and he's probably got more hit points than anyone but the barbarian (who will lose them much faster due to having less AC).


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thejeff wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
True, but when the caster runs out of spells, he can't even begin to do that. When the barbarian runs out of rage, he can still do his job, just not quite as well.
And the fighter does his job at the same level all day long, with his only limited resource being hit points (and they are a limited resource for everyone).

Also assuming he's not using consumables or caster buffs to keep up.

And the only thing really keeping him going are those cheap wands of CLW. Otherwise he's done right after the healer runs out of curing magic.

And if that's how he spends his character wealth by level resources, then what is your point?

I think part of it also comes from a semantic difference. The "casters rule martials drool" side seems to mentally assign most of the value of buffed attacks to the buffing agent rather than the one being buffed. A multiplier or adder is useless without the thing to multiply or add to.

I'll add myself to the list of "never seen this complete caster dominance" spoken of, despite repeatedly playing long campaigns that last into the mid teens to late teens.


The biggest limiter at level 1 is not spell slots or rounds of rage or similar --- it is total HP and access to healing. In every campaign i've ran, players retreat due to running out of healing spells - the wizard typically contributes just fine all the way through, because either the encounters are hard and the wizard uses his colour sprays (and the party runs out of HP) or the encounters are easy and the wizard uses his crossbow (and the party doesn't expend HP).

As soon as a CLW wand becomes available, this goes out the window of course..... except, as soon as a CLW wand becomes available for the martial, a caster has access to 750 GP worth of a wand or scrolls as well - more than enough to get him through many many encounters.

More accurately one might say long adventuring days certainly don't help the level 1 caster and, if he is badly prepared (or rations his spells poorly), might cause him issues.

From 2nd level onwards it's irrelevant. Not really a big effect if it isn't important for a caster for 19/20 levels.


RDM42 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
True, but when the caster runs out of spells, he can't even begin to do that. When the barbarian runs out of rage, he can still do his job, just not quite as well.
And the fighter does his job at the same level all day long, with his only limited resource being hit points (and they are a limited resource for everyone).

Also assuming he's not using consumables or caster buffs to keep up.

And the only thing really keeping him going are those cheap wands of CLW. Otherwise he's done right after the healer runs out of curing magic.

And if that's how he spends his character wealth by level resources, then what is your point?

I think part of it also comes from a semantic difference. The "casters rule martials drool" side seems to mentally assign most of the value of buffed attacks to the buffing agent rather than the one being buffed. A multiplier or adder is useless without the thing to multiply or add to.

I'll add myself to the list of "never seen this complete caster dominance" spoken of, despite repeatedly playing long campaigns that last into the mid teens to late teens.

Godhood might not be on the table, but I've been GMing for about a year now and done two campaigns. You are missing the point if you think this is all about doing damage.

There is absolutely a disparity when the party are presented with an enemy pirate ship crewed by powerful melee-type undead coming their way.

3/4ths of the party, two martials and an investigator, had the options of fighting the ship with their own ship's weapon, boarding it, and taking on all those undead.

The party's arcanist had the option of flying over to the ship while invisible, casting Passwall to open a hole in the hull, and sinking it.

Casters aren't omnipotent, but you're joking if you say campaigns don't need a ton more caster-proofing compared to what the GM has to do to keep the Martials feeling challenged.

This isn't just about numbers, it's about options. Fighty McGee has got one option, and he does it all day, never getting any better or worse at it until he runs out of hit points. The length of the day is completely irrelevant to Fighty McGee because he will never improve or get worse based on how long or short the time between rests is compared to others. This still means jack if the rest of the party needs to stop; when the healer says they're done, EVERYONE'S done.

A caster has more options, which necessitates treadmills until they run out. The fact Arcanists in particular nova so much they can run out of arcane pool and spells is just about the only balancing factor the class has in exchange for being ridiculously powerful while it's up and running.

I'm just saying, the treadmill approach of throwing stuff at your adventurers and denying them rests until they run out of steam isn't that important when the party is mostly or entirely nonmagical classes, and incredibly important when the party has a lot of magic. Fighty McGee doesn't care much about time constraints and rest breaks, but the cleric keeping him in the fight does. High-magic parties are why the short adventuring day before a rest is bad.


Quote:
This still means jack if the rest of the party needs to stop; when the healer says they're done, EVERYONE'S done.

Which is kinda the point of this thread. :P


RDM42 wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
True, but when the caster runs out of spells, he can't even begin to do that. When the barbarian runs out of rage, he can still do his job, just not quite as well.
And the fighter does his job at the same level all day long, with his only limited resource being hit points (and they are a limited resource for everyone).

Also assuming he's not using consumables or caster buffs to keep up.

And the only thing really keeping him going are those cheap wands of CLW. Otherwise he's done right after the healer runs out of curing magic.

And if that's how he spends his character wealth by level resources, then what is your point?

I think part of it also comes from a semantic difference. The "casters rule martials drool" side seems to mentally assign most of the value of buffed attacks to the buffing agent rather than the one being buffed. A multiplier or adder is useless without the thing to multiply or add to.

I'll add myself to the list of "never seen this complete caster dominance" spoken of, despite repeatedly playing long campaigns that last into the mid teens to late teens.

I see caster dominance in nearly all of my campaigns. I've set up huge battles where the casters deal with the majority of the mooks AND take out the BBEG with a create pit combined with black tentacles; meanwhile the martials just do whatever they can to survive.

I've also seen it on smaller scales, where the bloodrager gets knocked out and the gunslinger is unconscious, but the wizard hiding around the corner is still alive and still has his summons to finish up the battle. In multiple scenarios, the caster's summons are the only thing that prevented a TPK (in fact, that's happened at least five times in our current AP and we're only on book 2).

I'm constantly seeing the martials get knocked out or killed while the casters survive (only caster they've lost recently is the alchemist). When I play wizards, my wizard tends to outlive every other character in the group. I've been in several campaigns where my wizard was the only link to the main story simply because he was the only one who kept living. As a GM, I see the same thing. My current campaign only has two characters tied to the story, and one of them was because we set up his back story so that when his character died, his mind was uploaded into an identical body back in the shop (he's playing an android and he has three lives; he's on #2).


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Quote:
This still means jack if the rest of the party needs to stop; when the healer says they're done, EVERYONE'S done.
Which is kinda the point of this thread. :P

Here's something I've never seen anyone bring up:

When there is no healing, even martial classes succumb to a 15 minute adventure day.

I witnessed this in my current campaign. No one is playing a healer, and at low levels they couldn't afford any magical healing items (scrolls, wands, potions...). Now, they at least have a couple of magic items, so it helps a bit - and they rexently allied with an NPC cleric - but it still means shorter adventuring days when they're low on HP and have to return to heal up.


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Summons are so, so strong. Even more so, when you can cast them as a standard or swift action. If a DM banned the summon lines of spells, I wouldn't blame him.


I'd say from second level onwards almost every party should have a wand of CLW. If we're going by "standard" here. :P

Without a wand, they're enslaved. With a wand, they're honestly pretty much fine.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'd say from second level onwards almost every party should have a wand of CLW. If we're going by "standard" here. :P

Without a wand, they're enslaved. With a wand, they're honestly pretty much fine.

A wand of CLW *and* a wand of Lesser Restoration


Well, ability score damage is just a dick in general, but I see your point. But that's not necessarily a consequence of long adventuring days. More a consequence of fighting creatures with poison, or certain much-beloved undead.


That's assuming they have the cash and the ability to buy it (middle of nowhere with nothing but a small village probably doesn't have wands). I've been in campaigns where we didn't see even a town until nearly level 5. Heck, I was in a campaign that took place entirely in a dungeon - no towns, no settlements, no merchants, no time for crafting, nothing. You got what you could find, and that was it.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Just a Guess wrote:

As others have written it weakens the first few levels of casters but that of some martial classes, too.

Not quite to the same level, though. A barbarian without rage still probably invested in Strength and Constitution, which are good even without rage. A wizard without spells invested in Intelligence. So, he can help with Knowledge skills, but otherwise he's gotta lean on abilities he invested way less in. :P

Depends on the way the wizard is build. A first level earth wizard gets +1 to hit and damage opponents that are standing on the ground so with even a little strength he can go melee with mage armor up.

Or he can use one of his 3+int uses of acid could to deal damage and make one or more opponents sickened.

Example: Half orc earth wizard wielding a flail (getting proficiency via an alternate racial trait) casts mage armor and is as good as any 3/4 BAB guy in melee for the hour that mage armor lasts. After mage armor is gone he can renew it for a second hour and after that he still has his 5 - 6 acid clouds and his earth school spell slot (expeditious excavation, grease, stone fist) left.
Good enough to participate for an adventuring day.

Silver Crusade

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A few people have touched on this. The major importance of the longer day is not that it negates the wizard. Its that it negates the nova.

No nova, means the wizard tends to nurse his spells, and (shock and horror) operate as a team member and force multiplier less then act like the 'pointy hat show.'

I've said it repeatedly, when the wizard is buffing or providing battlefield support, and the cleric is doing cleric things, and the warrior is doing warrior things, the system is working.

A lot of 15-minute day wizards operate on the 'show up, dump spells, go take a nap' ethos. When they can't just drop their biggest stuff, when they have to make judgements on the relative values, they're doing their thing.

When players sit back, arms crossed, frownie face firmly in place because an encounter is "beneath them," they show themselves as the pretentious gloryhogs they are. This has the added benefit of meaning when they get to do their flashy stuff, after the party has already slogged through everything else, their victories and glories seem hollow since they weren't carrying their weight til then.

I'll offer a comparison from my experiences. Now keep in mind, I run slogs. I don't follow the encounter design mechanics. As a result my campaigns are a bit rougher, but also give out more xp as a result.

Wizard A, a half-celestial halfling wizard (back in 3.0) opted to follow the internet zeitgeist of the time and load up on ghostform, enervate, and similar anti-wizard shennigan spells. The ghostform was particularly hillarious to me (I will hide in the ground and nobody can get me). Since his 'winning spell combo' required so many spells, he wouldn't use hardly any until he saw a 'boss.'

End result: While he was (oh so cleverly) hiding in the ground and sniping enervations at anything in a robe (he thought they were always the bosses) the rest of the party ended up having to rip, claw and tear through legions of lemures, angry minotaurs, air elementals, constructs and dozens of other things they really, really, would have liked to have a wizard around for. And then he'd crawl out after the party had slogged through everything and demand they kiss his boots for him attacking the boss of the dungeon. This didn't go over well.

He actually got into arguments with other players because the players frequently didn't want to camp so he could restore his 'winning combo.'

Wizard B, really Mystic Theurge B, thinks he doesn't contribute. He's frequently running dry by the time the 'real boss' shows up, but his remove paralysis spells, his support spells, battlefield control spells and the like allow him to be an effective force multiplier throughout the entire adventure. He never contributes spectacularly, but he always contributes, and his party knows that while he doesn't do much damage, he probably has something in his toolbox to keep them alive as they pound through say Tendriculi, mi-go, and hounds of tindalos.

He tends to go until he is literally dry on spells. The party tends to rest for him if they're able to because they know he won't ask them lightly, and because he contributes constantly to the party throughout their slogging.

Sovereign Court

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I do think you (as GM) should train your players in the following:

- They can't know for sure how much more opposition they'll face. You can't go nova in room 3 because you can't be sure you're always in 3-room dungeons. This one might have 5.

- If the enemy hasn't been destroyed yet, and the PCs rest, the enemy uses that time to regroup as well. There is always an element of time pressure, because resting means surrendering the initiative.


Ascalaphus wrote:

I do think you (as GM) should train your players in the following:

- They can't know for sure how much more opposition they'll face. You can't go nova in room 3 because you can't be sure you're always in 3-room dungeons. This one might have 5.

- If the enemy hasn't been destroyed yet, and the PCs rest, the enemy uses that time to regroup as well. There is always an element of time pressure, because resting means surrendering the initiative.

1) Often though, you can tell without counting rooms when you're fighting the BBEG. Dramatically speaking, you really should be able to tell most of the time. There might be other rooms left, but this is the real fight.

It's also unfun to have a TPK in room 3 because the party tried conserving resources too long.

2) You've got to be careful with this and be sure you're gauging the enemies strength right. The more pressure you put on the PCs to conserve resources and continue on, the more it's your responsibility as a GM to be sure not resting is viable.

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