What would be good gear to go with a Tiny sized Fox who fights with Unarmed Strike, Bite and an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists?
Can't use an Amulet of Natural Armor while using an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
I think he will be using a Wand of Mage Armor until he can afford Bracers of Armor +4.
Imbicatus: While I had considered such items for other builds I'm not sure why I didn't think of it here. Thank you. :)
Oh, answering wont work. The character doesn't get opportune parry and riposte.
You might have issues with some gear. Fox shape is based off beast shape, which is Transmutation (polymorph).
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form.
Bracers grant an armor bonus, so you wouldn't benefit from the AC. And a constant bonus is distinctly different than a benefit. Bonuses are numeric, most magic items that grant constant abilities grant a character varying benefits.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
So Deliquescent Gloves are out of the running too. They don't grant a constant bonus and even if you do consider a touch attack something like that, it is still a use activated item technically and ruled out by polymorph.
You should determine what slots you have available after you change to fox shape and work from there.
Hm. But I could put the bracers on after shifting, I suppose.
Or just use the Wand.
Hm. But I could put the bracers on after shifting, I suppose.
Or just use the Wand.
But does a fox have a bracer slot? I think there was a book put out recently that gave which slots were available to various familiars or animal companions, so you might want to look there for a starting point.
Yes, they do. I just looked it up.
Quadraped (claws/paws) has: Armor, Belt (saddle), Chest, Eyes, Headband, Neck, Shoulders and Wrist.
But like I say, +4 Bracers are still a long way off and a Wand of Mage Armor is going to have to suffice until then.
Did I mention he will have levels in Monk and eventually Duelist? Stat boosting items will definitely be a priority as well. Those will still function in animal form.
The rules say nothing about Luck and Insight bonuses to AC transfering over so I assume that a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier and Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone are both fair game. Hm... do Ioun Stones merge when polymorphed?
Imbacatus: I had to go Master of Many Styles for early entry into Monkey Shine. Giving up Flurry doesn't matter, but getting that Monkey Shine ASAP is key.
Oh? *goes off to look at it right away*
Omigosh, Imbicatus! Thank you! I have no idea how I missed this before. This class totally fixes 2 problems I had with my build.
First, I was depending on Swashbuckler Finesse to get Weapon Finesse for free but as that only works with piercing weapons I was having to take Weapon Versatility to solve that problem.
This way, I will no longer have to do that and it will also free up a feat I was sinking into Weapon Focus to qualify for it. You just freed up 2 feats from my build! :) You are my new favorite person (for today).
Yes, they do. I just looked it up.
Quadraped (claws/paws) has: Armor, Belt (saddle), Chest, Eyes, Headband, Neck, Shoulders and Wrist.
But like I say, +4 Bracers are still a long way off and a Wand of Mage Armor is going to have to suffice until then.
Did I mention he will have levels in Monk and eventually Duelist? Stat boosting items will definitely be a priority as well. Those will still function in animal form.
The rules say nothing about Luck and Insight bonuses to AC transfering over so I assume that a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier and Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone are both fair game. Hm... do Ioun Stones merge when polymorphed?
As the jingasa provides a constant bonus, it should, though the secondary ability probably doesn't kick in (once per day when hit...). As for the ioun stone... It came up in another thread. I personally am of the opinion they don't merge, they have their own AC when "functioning" flying over your head. Rules wise, they would also appear to be use activated items (they need to be used and set flying over your head to gain their benefit), if you shape change and they are merged, it is no longer in orbit to grant their benefit. Obviously that can be mitigated by just starting them up after changing shape.
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Skylancer4 and I disagree about Ioun Stones. I consider them gear and covered by polymorph rules. As we both have good arguments regarding this issue I suggest bringing it up to your GM and deciding how they want it to work.
I know Mark Seifter is working on a polymorph FAQ and I asked him to change Bracers of Armor working while polymorphed, we will see how it goes.
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I actually have a third opinion on ioun stones. They do not take an item slot and function by orbiting around your head. They are not actually equipped on your body, so when you come under a polymorph effect, they continue orbiting your head in its new form. They don't morph into your new form so there is no question if the effects still work or not.
I actually have a third opinion on ioun stones. They do not take an item slot and function by orbiting around your head. They are not actually equipped on your body, so when you come under a polymorph effect, they continue orbiting your head in its new form. They don't morph into your new form so there is no question if the effects still work or not.
That is my belief as well, my post above was just stating why if you were of the opinion they did merge, they still wouldn't provide their benefit as their "usage" is tied to them being in orbit around your head.
Hm. I think I most agree with Imbicatus' viewpoint on the Ioun Stones.
For those who believe they would at least need to be reset in orbit to work: what about if they were put in a Wayfinder?
Taenia: Do you know if Mark is actually considering having Bracers of Armor work when polymorphed? I'm not sure I think they should. I mean with Armor you have to pay for the Wild bonus for them to apply while Wild Shaped. But then you are getting the Armor's Armor bonus as well as the Enhancement bonus added. With Bracers of Armor you would only get the Enhancement bonus. I'm on the fence on this one.
One clarification that I WOULD like to be made is whether Wild works when you are using other forms of Polymorphing than just Wild Shape. I mean, I guess it is less of a clarification and more of a rules change. It would be nice if other shape changers had the same options as a Druid, though.
So, I have been doing some reading on the polymorph issues. Yeah, that needs some clearing up.
Question to the nay sayers (those who believe that Bracers of Armor do not continue to give bonuses when Polymorphed): Say a Kitsune changes into a Fox and then places the Bracers of Armor on. The Bracers of Armor function then, yes? What happens when he decides to shift back to human form? Do they function then?
I believe that RAW is that they do not function when polymorphed, period. But I believe that RAW is too stupid to exist so should be ignored in this isolated circumstance. ...thus why I believe it needs some clarification.
So, I have been doing some reading on the polymorph issues. Yeah, that needs some clearing up.
Question to the nay sayers (those who believe that Bracers of Armor do not continue to give bonuses when Polymorphed): Say a Kitsune changes into a Fox and then places the Bracers of Armor on. The Bracers of Armor function then, yes? What happens when he decides to shift back to human form? Do they function then?
I believe that RAW is that they do not function when polymorphed, period. But I believe that RAW is too stupid to exist so should be ignored in this isolated circumstance. ...thus why I believe it needs some clarification.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
The rules regarding losing armor and shield bonuses explicitly apply if and only if the items providing the bonuses meld into the polymorpher's body. Thus, if a kitsune wears bracers and then changes shape into a fox they lose their armor bonus. If they turn into a fox and then put on the bracers they get their armour bonus.
from "Size and Magic Items"
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.
So when your kitsune polymorphs back into a fox-person, their bracers will *probably* magically resize.
So your reasoning is that the magic works when in Fox Shape if you put the bracers on after you shift but will not work if you have them on before. But if you shift back into a human while you are a fox that the bracers resize with you and continue to work the entire time ... since... because... MAGIC?...
Yeah, I don't get that. If the magic works when you turn from fox to human why would it not work when you turn from human to fox? ...I'm not buying it.
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So your reasoning is that the magic works when in Fox Shape if you put the bracers on after you shift but will not work if you have them on before. But if you shift back into a human while you are a fox that the bracers resize with you and continue to work the entire time ... since... because... MAGIC?...
Yeah, I don't get that. If the magic works when you turn from fox to human why would it not work when you turn from human to fox? ...I'm not buying it.
Because the magic of the spell for human->fox causes the bracers to meld into your body. That same magic causes you to lose their AC bonus.
He's saying that in spite of that, if you put them on when you're already a fox, then they'll probably change shape to fit you because there is no such logic in there saying that gear worn when you go from fox->human also melds into your body--but that the rules of magically resizing clothing will probably kick in making the bracers fit your new human form.
Specifically to your question as to why it doesn't work when you go human->fox the answer is simply because it says it doesn't work (and it doesn't say the reverse doesn't work which is why he says it probably will work).
Bracers of armor are terrible anyway. Just hand your friend a wand of mage armor.
claudekennilol: I choose to read your logic as "since because... MAGIC". ;) Outside of "because it is written that way" it just hurts the logic parts of my brain.
BigNorseWolf: That is the current plan. PFS wands are all 1st level though and 1hr duration can be tough the way encounters are ran in PFS. In the mid/late levels it may be beneficial to drop some cash on the Bracers. Also, Bracers can carry armor enhancements and Mage Armor cannot so there are other reasons they are desirable.
BigNorseWolf: That is the current plan. PFS wands are all 1st level though and 1hr duration can be tough the way encounters are ran in PFS. In the mid/late levels it may be beneficial to drop some cash on the Bracers. Also, Bracers can carry armor enhancements and Mage Armor cannot so there are other reasons they are desirable.
Most dungeon can be done in an hour or two. You'll only suffer in the you are walking from here to there and get attacked " portions, which isn't that bad.
You can also ask your party to memorize you a mage armor, someone in the party should have it.
BNW: Do you think for such a character you would ever get Bracers?
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I don't think it would really ever make financial sense in a PFS setting to get bracers of armor (+4) vs a wand of mage armor. The bracers are the equivalent of 33.3 wands of mage armor.
Now if you wanted an armor property then it might make sense to do both (purchase the bracers with the property) and still cast mage armor from the wand on yourself. You'll get the property and +4 to armor. There is inefficiency in this in that you'll lose out on the +1 minimum bonus that is required on the armor.
B. A. Robards-Debardot: Except that Bracers are up all the time while you actually have to use the Wand. I'm not sure if 33.3 wands = +4 Bracers in that sense.
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If you knew you'd always have a caster for it, it would probably still be cheaper to buy a lesser extend metamagic rod (3000gp) and a pearl of power (1000 gp) (or a runestone of power (2,000gp) for your spontaneous casters). At level 12 this would last you 24 hours.
It should also be noted that for 17,100 you could get a +1 Wild Mithral Shirt (+5 AC). Though I don't think this will work for the Kitsune as written. As you're not technically in a wild shape (though you are using the same base spell (beast shape). If I were the GM, I'd allow it, but I'm not sure it would fly in PFS.
Also going Monk so no armor for me. ;)
I hear ya on the cost. I do have UMD on the character so he can cast it himself from the wand. If I have an arcane caster around then the rod isn't a bad idea.
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I suggest a similiar thing for Barkskin if you have a druid, ranger, or hunter around, a CL 12 barkskin is +5 enchancement bonus to natural armor for 120 minutes. Keeping this up constantly would take 6 pearls of power (6x4000gp) and 2 lesser extend metamagic rod (2x3000gp). This is 20,000gp cheaper than a +5 amulet of natural armor (50,000gp) and keeps your neck slot free.
You also may not need this much coverage and depending on what you're doing during the day, you may find better uses for the pearls of power
BNW: Do you think for such a character you would ever get Bracers?
No. if i wanted magic item abilities I'd buy tiny barding and ask a party member to play dressup (and pray they don't have bows on their its)
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I won't speak for Mark but as people have mentioned Bracers are relatively underpowered for their cost (I feel they should have a base AC of 1 + the enhancment bonus) so including them is not a major balance factor.
The reason behind it comes from the premise that armor and shield bonuses didn't work because you aren't wearing the armor or using the shield in those forms and its the mundane qualities (even enhanced by magic) that you lose and that bracers of armor were lost in the definition rather than by design.
I personally prefer to use the Wands as well but you reach a point where two things come into play, you can afford the bracers and you want a higher AC. Normally wild armor does work but if you have monk levels Mage Armor or Bracers work where the armor does not.
I won't speak for Mark but as people have mentioned Bracers are relatively underpowered for their cost (I feel they should have a base AC of 1 + the enhancment bonus) so including them is not a major balance factor.
The reason behind it comes from the premise that armor and shield bonuses didn't work because you aren't wearing the armor or using the shield in those forms and its the mundane qualities (even enhanced by magic) that you lose and that bracers of armor were lost in the definition rather than by design.
I personally prefer to use the Wands as well but you reach a point where two things come into play, you can afford the bracers and you want a higher AC. Normally wild armor does work but if you have monk levels Mage Armor or Bracers work where the armor does not.
Unfortunately, by the time it becomes reasonable to buy bracers that exceed mage armour your character would be pretty high level.
Buying +5 Bracers costs 25k. For the measly +1 to AC there are far better alternatives that work alongside mage armor. Ring of protection and Amulet of natural armour will work for a while. A jinsaga and the insight bonus ioun stone are resonably priced and both apply to touch AC. Also, a +4 dex or dex/con belt or even the +2 dex ioun stone is reasonable compared to 25k. Unless your character is blowing the majority of their WBL on AC, you are probably are at least level 15 by the time Bracers becomes the best way of upping your AC.
This is for a monk.
All others can wear silken ceremonial armour or similar and get up to +6 Armour AC for cheaper than the Bracers and without occupying an otherwise useful slot. By the time characters can afford +7 Bracers 9th level spells will be in play and AC will be a terrible investment.
I still strongly dislike that rule. It seems ideal for Monks... who can't wear armor or lose out on class abilities. I still think it was a mistake in writing and is not the intent. Ah well.
So your amulet (AoMF), belt (stats), headband (stats), head (jingasa), and probably one ring (protection) are accounted for it seems. Scratch off any of those in fox form (double items in same slot), which leaves eyes, chest, armor, shoulders, and wrist (as well as possibly one ring that grants bonuses pre shift humanoid) to play with.
(Shoulders) Cloak of resistance might not be needed if you are running monk, but is always a possibility.
(Chest) Sipping Jacket? Put in some buff or utility like potion. Quickrunner's Shirt? Swift action for extra movement once per day.
(Eyes) Eyes of the Eagle, more perception isn't ever a bad thing.
(Wrist) Vambrances of Defence, +1 deflection to AC and 1xday deflect arrows. Longarm Bracers, 3xday +5' reach until your next turn.
It would be sweet if I had some shades while in fox shape, huh? Man, I bet a fox would look cool in shades.
I'm not digging the Vambraces or Bracers. I'm going to have to see what I can find that might be better.
Its too bad I can't stack reduce person with Fox Shape cause that would be great for the sipping jacket. ;)
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I'm making a similar character for PFS as well. Sipping jacket won't work in fox form as it is an activatable ability. Same with quickeunners jacke and longarm bracers. Vambraces deflection won't stack with ring of protection.
I'm going with a ring of elecution to be able to speak in fox form. Delisqucent gloves work as you don't activate it yourself it just happens. Chest I may save up for a monk robe to up AC and damage.
I'm making a similar character for PFS as well. Sipping jacket won't work in fox form as it is an activatable ability. Same with quickeunners jacke and longarm bracers. Vambraces deflection won't stack with ring of protection.
I'm going with a ring of elecution to be able to speak in fox form. Delisqucent gloves work as you don't activate it yourself it just happens. Chest I may save up for a monk robe to up AC and damage.
Quickrunner's is banned in PFS anyway
Good info, Ellias Aubec, thank you. Lemme know how your character goes if you do make it.
I'm making a similar character for PFS as well. Sipping jacket won't work in fox form as it is an activatable ability. Same with quickeunners jacke and longarm bracers. Vambraces deflection won't stack with ring of protection.
Incorrect, the items I listed will work because you can put them on AFTER you change into fox form. You still have the slots in that form.
Delisqucent gloves work as you don't activate it yourself it just happens. Chest I may save up for a monk robe to up AC and damage.
You would be incorrect on the gloves as well. I mentioned earlier that constant magic item benefits are not the same as bonuses . Read the polymorph school, it says nothing about keeping constant benefits from items, it states bonuses . The gloves read as use activated items, when worn and you make unarmed, natural, or weapon attacks with that hand wearing the glove you gain their benefit. You need to be using the glove which gives the benefit to the hand it is worn on. Use activated.
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. a character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
It bears repeating, constant benefit is not the same as a constant bonus. A bonus is a numeric value. The only reason the Ring of Eloquence works is because it has a clause stating the wearer retains the use of the item when changing forms. The fox form has certain slots available, you can use these to take advantage of items that don't grant bonuses, but give various benefits and activated abilities. The items you wear before shape changing will only grant bonuses to you as per the polymorph school, so you have to weigh activated abilities versus bonuses in a particlular slot that is shared between the two forms.
Elias: Yeah, Agile AoMF is definitely the most important item to the build. I was also planning on getting Boots of Striding and Springing.
Skylancer is correct about being able to wear some things after shifting. I do not plan on doing that for much both for concept reasons (I want to look like an actual regular fox), convenience and because there isn't much that I want to use that isn't constant effect anyway.
As for hand slot I had planned on using Gloves of Dueling. I do not see any reason why they wouldn't work while shifted.
Gloves of dueling you might experience table variance. The +4 is definitely a bonus, but then the item goes on to say that it applies to the weapon wielded. That leads to it being more a use activated item.
As for the the last ability, +2 to weapon training benefit, you have two possible issues. One, it is dependent on which weapon, which means it isn't a true constant bonus. It is again more use activated. Two, treating your class ability as two higher isn't the same as +2 to the ability's level. The same goes for monk robes worn before you shift.
It is the difference between something like "+1 to your caster level" versus "your caster level is one higher when...." They amount to roughly the same thing, but semantically they are different. Strictly speaking one works, the other doesn't.
why not give it an enlarge animal imbued breastplate made to fit a fox and give it a improve animal attack armor as in a special gantlet that increases the claw attack of the fox by one dice size(such as 1D4 too 1D6)
why not give it an enlarge animal imbued breastplate made to fit a fox and give it a improve animal attack armor as in a special gantlet that increases the claw attack of the fox by one dice size(such as 1D4 too 1D6)
I don't think that is legal for PFS, unless you have a specific item from a book you are talking about?
why not give it an enlarge animal imbued breastplate made to fit a fox and give it a improve animal attack armor as in a special gantlet that increases the claw attack of the fox by one dice size(such as 1D4 too 1D6)I don't think that is legal for PFS, unless you have a specific item from a book you are talking about?
there is a type of material that can be enchanted with any no offence spell (i forget what it is called) and you can have armor made to increase natural attacks but you will have 1/6 of that armors AC
also you can have a maxim of 4 natural attack improveing armor