RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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Snarky answer: When Otherkin start being represented.How much representation is too much, do you think?But IMO there really is a limit to how much representation a Fantasy game actually NEEDS to put in. Don't get me wrong, I don't object to the idea of Asexual, Genderfluid, or what have you characters, but there's a certain point where clamoring for more, more, more gets absurd in and of itself.
There's a lot of different people out there. If you want Paizo to represent everybody at every stage along every spectrum (sexuality, gender identity, race, and so on) then you're basically asking them to stop making an RPG and have everybody work full time writing backstories for Iconics, because that is a LOT of ground to cover.
You mean like druids or beast totem barbarians?
On a serious note, because someone asked earlier what I meant by my original post: I've seen many people claim they self-identify as being genderfluid, agender, bigender, or so on with a gender(s) of "train", "dog", "void", "this one fictional character from my favorite anime", and so on. I've also seen a majority of trans people be horribly offended by people who do this, since they feel it's degrading them. The term used is "transtrender", I think.
I'll admit I don't know everything, but this seems to be requesting that one of the iconics be a transtrender. Am I missing something?
Well, agender, gender fluid, and nonbinary are real genders. They're really not that hard to imagine, especially because there are people with lived experiences as these genders to vouch for their own identity.
I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually identify as "void" or whatever as a gender, and some people do this because it's "cute" or whatever. It's potentially harmful to trans people who already have trouble with people respecting their pronouns, but the best you can do is to ask people not to do this if they're doing it for fun instead of asking people to use different pronouns because it's integral to their identity.
Kazaan, we are not talking about "upteen billion" different pronouns. We are talking about one character using "they" as a personal pronoun. Again, I ask, where is the problem? Especially since this is a group of people that want the term to be used for themselves, not other people.
Also, as has been pointed out, "they" actually has a history of usage as a singular pronoun.
I'm not going to bother with the rest of your wall of text until you can explain to me why using a third pronoun when we already use two is going to end the world.
Gozreh is also gender fluid (both physically, mentally, figuratively and literally) Given paizo I wonder if that was intentional...
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Having played agendered and genderfluid characters before (Eberron in particular has some really good in-setting tools for that), it's really annoying that most other players (let alone their characters) don't seem willing to simply let such characters' gender go unassigned. An iconic would probably help in that regard.
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@thejeff, WotC introduced a transgender character in the most recent MtG expansion, Dragons of Tarkir: Alesha Who-Smiles-At-Death. The card is just a card, but in the short-story they published about her, her struggle to be accepted as both a warrior and as a woman are explored. Very good read.
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@thejeff, WotC introduced a transgender character in the most recent MtG expansion, Dragons of Tarkir: Alesha Who-Smiles-At-Death. The card is just a card, but in the short-story they published about her, her struggle to be accepted as both a warrior and as a woman are explored. Very good read.
Damn that was a good story. Highly, highly recommended.
Kazaan my reply was disrespectful. I apologize. It's been an emotional day, but that's no excuse.
Anyway, what I meant was your whole objections seems to jump from using "they" for an iconic to being forced to use a bajillion different words for different people. That stirkes me as a rather large straw-man.
And you go on to object to using even he/she. My question is: were you making this objection before the idea of "they" being used was brought up, or is it only now? If you weren't, why not?
These sorts of objections, and calls to stop using labels all together, seem to only come up when a marginalize group decides to name itself rather than be named/place into a category by the majority, which makes these arguments sound like they have ulterior motives behind them.
I say here retyping this several times because I was genuinely at a loss form your total and utter lack of empathy.I don't know much about you, Rynjin, but I'm going to wager a guess that you've never been the victim of widespread erasure or had any shortage of role-models or character to associate with in your media. If I'm correct, that means you have no idea what it's like to not have that, and how confusing and infuriating it can be.
The more these marginalized, struggling people can see themselves in stories growing up, the less they feel like they're broken. The more that people "in the norm" see these characters in media, the less deviant it will seem to them, and subsequently the more likely they are to understand when they encounter it in real life.
I really don't know what else to say. Am I coming across clearly? Because this is really, really important.
I "assume" that issue has nothing to do with Rynjin's empathy in this instance, it simply is unrealistic for paizo to attempt to represent every form of human.
They are representing a giant amount of different nationalities and they show more than just "Straight White Guys 80% of the time" like many other forms of media do, to the extent where I'm not even sure if there is a Straight White Guy iconic.
Either way so far paizo has shown they are continuing to show non-standard adventurers as their iconics, with it being the one reasons why the Occultist iconic is fat rather than the standard "All adventurers are super fit and muscular". So I wouldn't be surprised if there was eventually a non-binary iconic, it think it might be very fitting for the medium to be non-binary actually.
I guess what I'm saying is it should be organic. Something that fits the character and is an actual part of their identity rather than something tacked on to appease the people who want it by saying "Here, see, we made you one, are you happy?"
Which seems like the likely outcome if an incredibly diverse cast becomes an actual priority, rather than something that occasionally makes a great character, with an...
Comic book publishers used to say something very similar about why there weren't more black, Latino, and Asian superheroes. It becomes a priority when the publisher makes it a priority. And next generation will wonder why we ever wondered whether we should.
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it simply is unrealistic for paizo to attempt to represent every form of human
In a game with dozens of 0HD humanoids, fantastical races with zero real-world analogs, just because, I'm pretty sure there's a little room for genderfluid or agender characters. :)
Having played agendered and genderfluid characters before (Eberron in particular has some really good in-setting tools for that), it's really annoying that most other players (let alone their characters) don't seem willing to simply let such characters' gender go unassigned. An iconic would probably help in that regard.
Thank you for providing a good example!
And this goes beyond the table, too. Say, if Alex is nonbinary IRL, and they meet someone who plays Pathfinder, that player is more equipped to understand and accept Alex's identity because they have a frame of reference. It's not just baout its impact on the game itself, it can have a far greater reach.
@Milo, what Rynjin said specifically was that he doesn't think it should a priority or that it matters, which coming from someone who clearly has never had a shortage of representation is akin to "doesn't affect me so it doesn't matter", which strikes me as a lack of empathy.
it simply is unrealistic for paizo to attempt to represent every form of humanIn a game with dozens of 0HD humanoids, fantastical races with zero real-world analogs, just because, I'm pretty sure there's a little room for genderfluid or agender characters. :)
Exactly. Again with this leap from "Have a character refer to as "they" to "UGH now we have to write a novel about every identity that ever existed ever"
Having played agendered and genderfluid characters before (Eberron in particular has some really good in-setting tools for that), it's really annoying that most other players (let alone their characters) don't seem willing to simply let such characters' gender go unassigned. An iconic would probably help in that regard.Thank you for providing a good example!
And this goes beyond the table, too. Say, if Alex is nonbinary IRL, and they meet someone who plays Pathfinder, that player is more equipped to understand and accept Alex's identity because they have a frame of reference. It's not just baout its impact on the game itself, it can have a far greater reach.
it simply is unrealistic for paizo to attempt to represent every form of humanIn a game with dozens of 0HD humanoids, fantastical races with zero real-world analogs, just because, I'm pretty sure there's a little room for genderfluid or agender characters. :)
I really appreciate these two posts because both touch on how relevant representation is to individuals who are participating in our particular sub-culture, and also touch on an issue specific to fantasy and similar genres - that we are totally happy to invest a lot of energy in creating dragons, magic, a thousand sentient species, but we draw the line at things like transgender or non-binary characters in central roles as 'unrealistic'.
I feel that there would be actually no issue here if English had a gender-ambiguous pronoun in addition to masculine, feminine, and neutral.
English please.
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Personally, I'm triggered that we don't have an FAQ on splash weapons vs. swarms yet. Where do I go to flame a staffmember about that?Flaming a staff member is not necessary. At all. If this is a topic that you feel needs to be discussed, post in the appropriate forum and flag it as needing to be FAQed. It is not a relevant topic for this thread.
Aw, c'mon, I was kidding. When have I ever actually flamed a staffmember? About something that wasn't smurfs, I mean?
Aw, c'mon, I was kidding. When have I ever actually flamed a staffmember? About something that wasn't smurfs, I mean?Personally, I'm triggered that we don't have an FAQ on splash weapons vs. swarms yet. Where do I go to flame a staffmember about that?Flaming a staff member is not necessary. At all. If this is a topic that you feel needs to be discussed, post in the appropriate forum and flag it as needing to be FAQed. It is not a relevant topic for this thread.
I don't know, when?
Well, today's not a Monday, so does it even matter?
In a game with dozens of 0HD humanoids, fantastical races with zero real-world analogs, just because, I'm pretty sure there's a little room for genderfluid or agender characters. :)
There is definitely room, I even specifically said that the medium would be a perfect class to have as a genderfluid iconic.
@Milo, what Rynjin said specifically was that he doesn't think it should a priority or that it matters, which coming from someone who clearly has never had a shortage of representation is akin to "doesn't affect me so it doesn't matter", which strikes me as a lack of empathy.
You can have a neutral view without lacking empathy. I personally don't have a view on whether there should be one or not, though I can see the benefits of there being one. "Personally" I would rather an iconic who was skinny as all hell that isn't evil or pathetic, so I'd have someone to identify with, but I don't feel as though such an iconic is truly necessary.
Exactly. Again with this leap from "Have a character refer to as "they" to "UGH now we have to write a novel about every identity that ever existed ever"
Please do not paint me as a strawman, it's rather rude.
I really appreciate these two posts because both touch on how relevant representation is to individuals who are participating in our particular sub-culture, and also touch on an issue specific to fantasy and similar genres - that we are totally happy to invest a lot of energy in creating dragons, magic, a thousand sentient species, but we draw the line at things like transgender or non-binary characters in central roles as 'unrealistic'.
When did anyone say that transgender characters or non-binary characters in central roles are unrealistic?
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I think in some geographical areas and/or the sheltered way some people live their lives, Shardra may be the only trans person players encounter. She's both a hero and quite spiritual (by definition no less). So while not necessarily a role model, she may be the first in depth introduction to the concept. Not only that but she is in a game where you are supposed to interact with a world through her eyes.
I think that's powerful, really powerful. If Pathfinder can do it for others too its a good thing and would bring positive change to the real world (not just Golarion). Pathfinder may literally help some kid out there find their path in life.
Lack of awareness limits possibilities, labels or no. In Pathfinder terms, you can't take the Feat you don't know about.
Long story short, I'm an adopted half-Chinese, half-white, openly bisexual man, who is sex-positive and happily-partnered in a homosexual relationship.
Growing up my life was pretty sheltered in my smallish southern town (Pop ~5000, I was the only person of Asian descent there until I was 14). I knew "funny" people (as my mom called them) and their "friends", but their sexuality was sort of erased from social awareness. She would also say Charles Nelson Reilly was "funny", which led to a lot of confusion (sidenote you don't have to be humorous to be gay). I didn't really know what a lesbian was until Ellen, nor that being gay could be more than a punch-line until Will and Grace. Even then it took a long time to be able to find myself.
Close. One of the iconics (Shardra) IS transgender. What this thread was initially about was thep ossibliy of adding a nonbinary iconic—one that is neither strongly male or strongly female.
The difference is that this would require the rules text for the class to use the gender-neutral "they" instead of he or she (and every iconic has either been a "he" or "she" up until this point".
As far as I am aware, the only genderfluid character in Pathfinder is Arshea, the Spirit of Abandon, but as Arshea is an immortal deity, this isn't quite the same.
Wait, do you want a class written with gender neutral terms or just a particular iconic? Those are two vastly different topics.
Wait, do you want a class written with gender neutral terms or just a particular iconic? Those are two vastly different topics.
What gender terms a class is written with is determined by the gender of it's iconic.
What gender terms a class is written with is determined by the gender of it's iconic.
Interesting. I hadn't considered that. Thinking on that, each class seems to typify its gender. Depending on how critical you want to be, it could be said they do so fairly stereotypically especially considering the iconic backgrounds. How would Paizo typify neutrality without pissing off the target demographic in this case?
What gender terms a class is written with is determined by the gender of it's iconic.Interesting. I hadn't considered that. Thinking on that, each class seems to typify its gender. Depending on how critical you want to be, it could be said they do so fairly stereotypically especially considering the iconic backgrounds. How would Paizo typify neutrality without pissing off the target demographic in this case?
Well, the Barbarian, Brawler, Paladin, and Swashbuckler are all women so I'd say Paizo has done a decent job not just playing to stereotypes with what genders they pick for each class.
The full casting ladies need a better wardrobe but that's a different topic.
Well, the Barbarian, Brawler, Paladin, and Swashbuckler are all women so I'd say Paizo has done a decent job not just playing to stereotypes with what genders they pick for each class.
The full casting ladies need a better wardrobe but that's a different topic.
If you read the progressions of those stories instead of just looking at the end result, add the perspective of some rants from more extreme feminist circles, and what I meant becomes fairly apparent.
What gender terms a class is written with is determined by the gender of it's iconic.Interesting. I hadn't considered that. Thinking on that, each class seems to typify its gender. Depending on how critical you want to be, it could be said they do so fairly stereotypically especially considering the iconic backgrounds. How would Paizo typify neutrality without pissing off the target demographic in this case?
I'd say they're the pure gender opposite of the stereotype in many cases. Many of the "heavies" are women (Barbarian, Brawler, Paladin, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger, and Inquisitor), and so is the stereotypical "Edgy Rogue with way too many knives" and the EXTREMELY stereotypical"Huntress who hunts things with a wolf companion"...all of which are generally men.
The main ones that especially fit the stereotype are Harsk and Oloch on the men's side and Lini and Feiya on the female side.
Though I guess you could just as well say "A gender-flipped stereotype is just as stereotypical at this point".
Take Amiri... a woman who tries to cope in a "man's world" and actually becomes a skilled hunter in her own right. Yet, in spite of all her previous success, she's still so eager for their approval, she signs up for a stupid assignment that could have easily spotted as a ruse. When stuff goes south, she redeems herself not through skill, not through any previous honor or her own merits. No, she has to go completely b$$~$@~ insane and kill everyone. That is our iconic barbarian.
You can't see how that can be picked apart? Those kinds of stories are prevalent in each iconic, man or woman. About the only one I can see from a quick perusal of the backgrounds who is simply themselves is probably Seoni. In this case, given the politicized nature of gender roles currently, I'm hard pressed to see how Paizo could execute on this one and not grossly offend someone.
There's a neat benefit to creating a character that supposed to be from a larger demographic. The size of the demographic can easily lend itself to a notion of variation. The smaller the demographics, the more narrow that variation occurs. Trying to stay true to very small groups is actually kind of hard.
I dunno, I think "hunter chick" is a pretty solidly established trope. Artemis, that princess chick whose name I'm not supposed to say is Mononoke, Nepeta, that 3.5 iconic...
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Take Amiri... a woman who tries to cope in a "man's world" and actually becomes a skilled hunter in her own right. Yet, in spite of all her previous success, she's still so eager for their approval, she signs up for a stupid assignment that could have easily spotted as a ruse. When stuff goes south, she redeems herself not through skill, not through any previous honor or her own merits. No, she has to go completely b+%$#+& insane and kill everyone. That is our iconic barbarian.
You can't see how that can be picked apart? Those kinds of stories are prevalent in each iconic, man or woman. About the only one I can see from a quick perusal of the backgrounds who is simply themselves is probably Seoni. In this case, given the politicized nature of gender roles currently, I'm hard pressed to see how Paizo could execute on this one and not grossly offend someone.
There's a neat benefit to creating a character that supposed to be from a larger demographic. The size of the demographic can easily lend itself to a notion of variation. The smaller the demographics, the more narrow that variation occurs. Trying to stay true to very small groups is actually kind of hard.
Everybody craves attention, acknowledgement, identification, approval, and dare I say it, love. But the thing with love and all these other things is that it takes time to develop, and when forced from the subject expected to give it, things get really ugly, really fast, because at that precise moment of demanding these things from others as an entitlement is the moment one ceases to give it themselves.
To channel my inner Irori, contentment with the self comes from the self.
What about Droogami?
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If there were a genderfluid iconic I honestly would find that pretty cool.Aww, thank you.
Is this canon for Reiko? If so, w00t! (If not, that's cool too.)
It's not an iconic, or even official Golarion canon, but Wayfinder #7 (always free!) offers the skindancers as an available 0-HD player race. The included backstory only hints at it, but fluff/flavorwise, they were always intended to be very relaxed about where their individual gender identities sit on the spectrum.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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1. I don't assume anyone's gender or pronouns. People assume they know what my gender is when they see me in public, but they're usually wrong. So I just refer to anyone whose pronouns I don't 100% know as "they" until I get more information. And this is around your most white-bread corporate office types. No one has gotten confused or asked for explanations. "They" has a long history of a third-person singular pronoun, no one is confused by it, and it's incredibly easy to integrate into your vocabulary with a little practice.
2. Minority groups don't insist on being treated as their own separate groups, they are actively excluded and marginalized by the majority. You're not talking about inclusion, you're talking about assimilation. The difference is that you don't seem to want inclusion unless marginalized groups erase what makes them different, what they are marginalized for.
3. An iconic whose pronoun is "they" would be great, and would probably be beneficial in alleviating the problems in points 1 and 2.
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Is this canon for Reiko? If so, w00t! (If not, that's cool too.)If there were a genderfluid iconic I honestly would find that pretty cool.Aww, thank you.
I wrote Reiko's backstory, so yes. Genderqueer/genderfluid asexual.
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I'd also like having gender fluidity/lack as an official example because you don't have to identify as someone to identify with someone.Having played agendered and genderfluid characters before (Eberron in particular has some really good in-setting tools for that), it's really annoying that most other players (let alone their characters) don't seem willing to simply let such characters' gender go unassigned. An iconic would probably help in that regard.Thank you for providing a good example!
I actually went back and re-read the PbP thread for one of the characters I was thinking of when I said that, and the worst offender was actually the GM. All my posts were "it" (warforged, asexual and agendered) and all the GM's posts were "he."
I wrote Reiko's backstory, so yes. Genderqueer/genderfluid asexual.Is this canon for Reiko? If so, w00t! (If not, that's cool too.)If there were a genderfluid iconic I honestly would find that pretty cool.Aww, thank you.
I think this illustrates a few points that have been brought up in this thread. We can't honestly say for sure that we know the gender identities of most of the iconics, unless you strictly hold writers to gender pronouns in third-person narrative.
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It's not like the sexuality of any other iconic was explicitly spelled out in Meet The Iconics.
Maybe except for Alain's thing for horses...
Donahan represents everything Alain looks for in a partner: absolute loyalty, absolute trust—and absolute obedience.
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I wrote Reiko's backstory, so yes. Genderqueer/genderfluid asexual.Is this canon for Reiko? If so, w00t! (If not, that's cool too.)If there were a genderfluid iconic I honestly would find that pretty cool.Aww, thank you.Not to complain but was that supposed to be even hinted at in the backstory? I didn't remember anything and just went back and reread and still didn't notice anything. Am I just oblivious?
Or was it left out to be filled out in later fiction? Comics or elsewhere.
Cool either way, just a little odd to have it in there, but not acknowledged.
Could someone link Reiko's back story? I'm sure that would help the thread. (On my phone, can't do it myself right now...)
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Reiko's backstory can be found here. Reading it, I'm not really seeing the genderfluid identity; Reiko is referred to multiple times as a woman and is given feminine pronouns.