A Genderless / Genderfluid / Agender Iconic


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I'm just gonna point out that a sizable percentage of Paizo employees are LGBT, and by default the vast majority of Paizo employees have friends who are LGBT.

I could see that making sense, not very suprising, though this fact does point to it possibly being intended before the idea became popular by the fans of Pathfinder.

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thejeff wrote:
JonathonWilder wrote:
I believe it was actually Kyra, the cleric, not the paladin....

You're correct, it was Kyra. The two Iconics were Merisiel and Kyra, who from the Paizo Twitter feed are not a couple when before it was left more in the open. This is was I read before involving the two:

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Merisiel and Kyra, if the "Ask Merisiel" thread on Paizo's forums is to be believed. Apparently, if she could spend one night alone with any of her companions, it would be Kyra and what she would do... is not something that she would be allowed to say in polite company. All we've got is her line about how humans "can be super sexy and intriguing, especially when they worship Sarenrae and wear so much armor that you can't make out the details but just barely."

Merisiel: Kyra's still kinda a stick in the mud, but she's getting better at it. Slowly. Operation "loosen up the cute cleric" continues into its fourth year, in other words.
Merisiel: Best part about Kyra's healing magic? They're touch spells, and she's too kind-hearted to NOT heal someone who's actually hurt.
Kyra: By the Light of the Dawn, people, STOP encouraging her! I have enough problems keeping Valeros in line...
Merisiel (to Kyra): Kissy kissy!

From twitter, on questions about Merisiel and Kyra being a couple there was this said:

Quote:

Paizo Inc.

@GothPanda @ComicGeeks Merisiel and Kyra are very much a couple! Glad you enjoyed the preview!

So yah, I would need to read up on the two and consider how it was handled before worrying too much if it was fan pandering or something intended and developed.


JonathonWilder wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I'm just gonna point out that a sizable percentage of Paizo employees are LGBT, and by default the vast majority of Paizo employees have friends who are LGBT.
I could see that making sense, not very suprising, though this fact does point to it possibly being intended before the idea became popular by the fans of Pathfinder.

That's the point. :P


Let's try to get this back on something resembling the original topic.

Representation in general: Kyra is official lesbian according to the comics, which are considered canon. Merisiel is officially bisexual, like most elves, and the two of them are officially in a relationship.

Representation of non-binary gender people: It would be great, and not by adding a non-human race without a gender binary, but by including a human or nearly-human person who falls into the category. It's too late for the Occult Adventures iconics, unless the Paizo people have already decided to include someone like that without telling us, and I have my doubts that very many more iconics are going to be created. Somehow I don't think more new base classes are the way Paizo is going to go in the future.

More information about Reiko seems to be the way to go, since it seems that she was intended by her author to be genderfluid asexual. Perhaps one of the Pathfinder Origins comics could include her?


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Let's try to get this back on something resembling the original topic.

Representation in general: Kyra is official lesbian according to the comics, which are considered canon. Merisiel is officially bisexual, like most elves, and the two of them are officially in a relationship.

Representation of non-binary gender people: It would be great, and not by adding a non-human race without a gender binary, but by including a human or nearly-human person who falls into the category. It's too late for the Occult Adventures iconics, unless the Paizo people have already decided to include someone like that without telling us, and I have my doubts that very many more iconics are going to be created. Somehow I don't think more new base classes are the way Paizo is going to go in the future.

More information about Reiko seems to be the way to go, since it seems that she was intended by her author to be genderfluid asexual. Perhaps one of the Pathfinder Origins comics could include her?

Don't forget our officially trans iconic, Shardra.

And there's been Word of God that at least one of the male iconics is gay, right? Or has it actually been revealed? And possibly one trans, or am I misremembering that?

Outside the sex/gender world, isn't one of the Occult Adventures iconics supposed to be an older woman?

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Removed a few offensive/purposely baiting posts and posts in response resulting in more real world political discussion. This thread concerns characters which exist in Paizo products, and there are more appropriate forums for other topics. Please take other chatter elsewhere.


Thanks, Chris.

I don't think the gay or male bi iconic, if there is one, has been revealed.

Sharda is awesome but still corresponds to binary gender.

My understanding is that there is an older woman iconic, yes, but who it is hasn't been revealed.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Let's try to get this back on something resembling the original topic.

Representation in general: Kyra is official lesbian according to the comics, which are considered canon. Merisiel is officially bisexual, like most elves, and the two of them are officially in a relationship.

Well, how do you show a non binary gender? Adventurers are by and large are going to show some traditionally masculine traits of stabbing things, blowing stuff up and looting the bodies. A woman that acts more manly is almost the default. A man stabbing and killing things builds up serious manpoints. If its strictly an internal thing it falls into the problem of show don't tell.

I'm also looking at the huge flowchart of different orientations sexes and genders and... you can't fit them all into 10 iconics. Even fitting in 5 of them would make the iconics seem like one of those weirdly diverse 1980s tv gangs.


Six Ways To Show A Nonbinary Gender:
1. Pronouns
2. Pronouns
3. Mentioning it in their backstory. Which every iconic gets.
4. I have found that using pronouns, such as "they", can serve well here.
5. A character simply not particularly resembling either gender (helps if they're an elf) and not bring referred to as either gender, which leads to #6,
6. Pronouns.


On the question of "should they/should they not" - I'm politely saying I don't mind either way ..

But I was thinking if I knew of any characters that would fit the definition(/s) of nb/genderfluid(/cis? -are These the same or variations or completly differen?)
In my opinion "the Fool" from the farseer- books by Robin Hobb might fit:
He spends most of the time in the books portraying himself as a man, yet has spent time living as a woman at least once if not more times.
His relationships with others and his love for them are completely disconnected from their gender and wholly based on their personality.
His mysterious "Race" and the metamorphosis he goes trough at several points in the story gives a hint that his gender also might change to suit his needs.

I'm only on book 2 in the tawny man chronicle - so I don't know where his and FitzChivalry's story end, but I'm thinking that he might be one possible depiction of a genderfluid hero in a fantasy story?
What do you think?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Let's try to get this back on something resembling the original topic.

Representation in general: Kyra is official lesbian according to the comics, which are considered canon. Merisiel is officially bisexual, like most elves, and the two of them are officially in a relationship.

Well, how do you show a non binary gender? Adventurers are by and large are going to show some traditionally masculine traits of stabbing things, blowing stuff up and looting the bodies. A woman that acts more manly is almost the default. A man stabbing and killing things builds up serious manpoints. If its strictly an internal thing it falls into the problem of show don't tell.

I'm also looking at the huge flowchart of different orientations sexes and genders and... you can't fit them all into 10 iconics. Even fitting in 5 of them would make the iconics seem like one of those weirdly diverse 1980s tv gangs.

1) That's not what non-binary gender is. A woman "acting manly" is still a woman. Female soldiers, for example, aren't leaving their gender by doing a traditionally masculine job.

Non-binary/genderfluid stuff is tricky and I'm no expert, but it, like transgender, is about gender identification, not about gender roles. You can identify as female and still like traditionally masculine things. You can identify as male and still have a traditionally feminine job or hobbies.
Non-binary, as I understand it, is not identifying as either male of female, or possibly as in genderfluid, identifying as either at different times.

2) First there are far more than 10 iconics and I think we've already got more than 5 combinations of orientation/sex/genderidentity: (assumed multiple)Straight Cis Male, (assumed multiple)Straight Cis Female, Trans female, bi female, gay female, (unnamed) gay male, asexual genderfluid.
Beyond that, Is anyone actually asking for whatever huge flowchart you've got in your head? (if you're talking about a real one, link it, I'd love to see it.) By the way, if you want more, we should also have them all available in all races and ethnicities. That's for real diversity!
Even if we can't or even shouldn't get all possible combinations, are you claiming they should stop now? That any further diversity is unreasonable and any further iconics should be cis and straight (and white? and male?).


Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed a few offensive/purposely baiting posts and posts in response resulting in more real world political discussion. This thread concerns characters which exist in Paizo products, and there are more appropriate forums for other topics. Please take other chatter elsewhere.

All good and well, but the pressing issue is whether Miss Feathers should be the VC of Kaer Maga. Who can we forward this request to? It should be a thing.


Venture captains are evil and try to get the players killed by withholding vital information. Miss Feathers does the opposite.


That makes her an even better candidate!


TheJeff wrote:
Non-binary/genderfluid stuff is tricky and I'm no expert, but it, like transgender, is about gender identification, not about gender roles. You can identify as female and still like traditionally masculine things. You can identify as male and still have a traditionally feminine job or hobbies.

How do you show an identification in the story separate from someones role? It seems to be hard enough to explain, much less show.

Quote:
Beyond that, Is anyone actually asking for whatever huge flowchart you've got in your head?

If we're down to gender fluid we're getting there...

Quote:
(if you're talking about a real one, link it, I'd love to see it)

If I figure out how to draw a hecatonicosachoron I'll post a picture :)

Quote:
By the way, if you want more, we should also have them all available in all races and ethnicities. That's for real diversity!

Races don't seem nearly as forced on golarion, since not africa and not asia have been integrated into the story from the start, not europe isn't the back end of nowhere the way it was potrayed as in the dork ages, and some of the iconics draw heavily from those traditions. There's a reason to have a tien samurai, it fits the theme.

Quote:
Even if we can't or even shouldn't get all possible combinations, are you claiming they should stop now? That any further diversity is unreasonable and any further iconics should be cis and straight

I can't say what anyone should or shouldn't do. It would start to look a little hokey to me if half of a group is a rare minority of some sort.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
TheJeff wrote:
Non-binary/genderfluid stuff is tricky and I'm no expert, but it, like transgender, is about gender identification, not about gender roles. You can identify as female and still like traditionally masculine things. You can identify as male and still have a traditionally feminine job or hobbies.
How do you show an identification in the story separate from someones role? It seems to be hard enough to explain, much less show.

Not easily, I'll admit. Especially in a very short story, like the backgrounds. With more room - visual descriptions, dress, pronouns, other people's reactions.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I don't think the gay or male bi iconic, if there is one, has been revealed.

I thought the dev's said that everyone is bi unless otherwise stated. Which would make there be many male bi iconics.


Milo v3 wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I don't think the gay or male bi iconic, if there is one, has been revealed.
I thought the dev's said that everyone is bi unless otherwise stated. Which would make there be many male bi iconics.

I think there's a difference between "When playing the character, treat them as whatever orientation you prefer" and "This character is canonically X". By that metric, most of the characters are "undefined".


thejeff wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
I don't think the gay or male bi iconic, if there is one, has been revealed.
I thought the dev's said that everyone is bi unless otherwise stated. Which would make there be many male bi iconics.
I think there's a difference between "When playing the character, treat them as whatever orientation you prefer" and "This character is canonically X". By that metric, most of the characters are "undefined".

No, I think they actually said Bi rather than undefined.


thejeff wrote:
Not easily, I'll admit. Especially in a very short story, like the backgrounds. With more room - visual descriptions, dress, pronouns, other people's reactions.

Visual descriptions only depict someone's outward appearance

Clothes almost invariably going to trend towards practical ie male. A woman wearing armor is making the statement "I want to live!"

Pronouns: I doesn't come with a gender component. The only time pronouns get used is from other characters, which just shows their perceptions of the other character. Varsuvius from order of the stick for example has different characters use different pronouns, but that says little to nothing of how varsuvius sees themselves. On the other end Sharda for example uses she because she's a girl, and all girl at that. The pronoun can't differentiate cis trans, fluid, or something in between.

Other peoples reactions depend on knowing what the other person perceives the character as AND the other characters orientation. Neither tell you how other characters see them.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Not easily, I'll admit. Especially in a very short story, like the backgrounds. With more room - visual descriptions, dress, pronouns, other people's reactions.

Visual descriptions only depict someone's outward appearance

Clothes almost invariably going to trend towards practical ie male. A woman wearing armor is making the statement "I want to live!"

Pronouns: I doesn't come with a gender component. The only time pronouns get used is from other characters, which just shows their perceptions of the other character. Varsuvius from order of the stick for example has different characters use different pronouns, but that says little to nothing of how varsuvius sees themselves.

Other peoples reactions depend on knowing what the other person perceives the character as AND the other characters orientation. Neither tell you how other characters see them.

I said it wasn't easy.

But seriously, have you looked at the pictures of the iconics? Unless you simply define "Armor=practical=male", the differences between the male and female armored characters is pretty obvious. Is "boobplate" male?
For a genderfluid character, changes in dress and appearance would make a good indication.
Pronouns also get used by narrators, not just characters. How the character reacts to others assumptions about their gender helps.

But, I get the feeling you're looking for a simple, unambiguous cue. Which you won't find.

Regardless, it doesn't change my original point: Female warriors aren't what we're talking about here.


I always assumed Lem and Harsk were a thing, but I can't remember where I got that from.

I will say that Damiel has chemistry with pretty much everyone.


I thought it was revealed that the monk was the gay Iconic.


To me the point of the characters are to have a personality to hang a story on. Gender and sexuality for me aren't really a main focus of what interests me in the character. If the fact that the character is ___ race ___ gender ____ sexuality from ____ moves the story along or enriches it then that is great, if it is just a foot note you likely trying to wedge something where it may not need to be. If you manage to tell a whole story and the protagonist is still kind of a "blank slate" that you can insert your own thoughts and interpretations onto that is even better as it can be an identity for anyone. Some examples would be stories where the main character isn't really given a good description, in those cases it is entirely the scenario that is pushing the story rather than the character fitting some niche.

I'm not sure if I would really be interested in a set of stories where the only interesting thing is how "progressive" the character is, that would feel cheap and tacked on to me. But if that story could only be exist due to those special circumstances of that character then that is awesome; bring on those diverse characters! I do want to see players own character creations, telling their own stories and giving life to their personas, I don't think we need to wait for official works to fill in our desire for new interesting protagonists.

I've had a lot of characters I've written stories of and in my mind they are a certain "type" (M/F/Other, H/B/LG/other; more complexity than being just a series of labels) , and any particular difference in how that "type" would change the story has not come up in their adventures so it wouldn't be in the story except as a foot note, so it isn't there at all.

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