i was wondering what tactics work best to keep an enemy(s) at distance while holding the line with a reach weapon manuever master/lore warden.
my thoughts are to cancel the stand from prone, 5ft step, and attack me scenario that will come up. is pushing assault worth the feat since i will be taking power attack? is the reposition manuever just as good with a reach weapon to move him out of range? my other thoughts are ki throw, bullrush, and overrun actions. i'm also curious how bullrush and overrun work while i perform a full round action flurry of manuevers with or without wielding reach weapon and improved unarmed strike.
ty for any advice all
bran
thoughts also on moving enemies that are prone to squares further away or behind me for the other pcs to mop up
If you want to keep enemies away then pushing assault will be nice, as it can work with AoO too.
If you want to keep enemies away then pu
shing assault will be nice, as it can work with AoO too.
so, use your power attack on the aoo and push him away after normal damage. the power attack does'nt have to be in effect from using it earlier in the same round? wondering too if i could trip on the aoo, then use pushing assault on my full round action with my flurry of manuevers?
Yes, I had a build that was looking into this. You can trip on the AoO, full attack on your turn and push them when thy stand up from trip, then do it all again when they come back to you.
Basically trip and Pushing assult makes for a mean combo.
Combat Patrol + Reach Weapon + anything that increases reach + Combat Reflexes + a bunch of Trip feats.
Stand Still and the Step Up line of feats wouldn't hurt either.
Probably use an Alchemal Silver Bec de Corbin, a Cold Iron Horsechopper, and an Adamantine Shield, so you always have the right tool for the job.
Small point of advice... I'd suggest an Adamantine Horsechopper, Cold Iron Bec, and Mithral Shield w/spikes. The reasons being these:
1: Mithral counts as silver for overcoming DR, and you don't have to deal with the -1 to attack from Alchemical Silver. Plus the shield gets to be lighter.2: Adamantine weapons are great for carving your way through doors and walls. It's hard to carve through a wall with a shield, but much easier with slashing weapons.
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How is the kyoketsu shoge [Wikipedia] at reach tactics?
Wow, that's getting pretty exotic. Ninja!
I've never used one in-game, only In Real Life. As I lack this Exotic Weapon Proficiency I was only able to hit myself with it, despite being proficient with some other flail weapons. My Silat dojo shares space with a Ninjutsu dojo. Their practice kyoketsu shoge are made from a wooden kama, a hard rubber ring, and silk rope.
The kyoketsu shoge is mechanically a bludgeoning reach weapon, like any other. Wow, and it has 20' reach & is concealable!
Seems like reach tactics are totally viable with this weapon. As GM I'd likely rule that most successful combat maneuvers at reach (but not damaging attacks) cause the weapon to wrap (entangle?) the foe, rendering it unavailable against the next attacker. Since that's how it is supposed to be used. So it would work really well against a single foe, but not so well against many foes.
Seems like this weapon also threatens both close and at reach. Again, the whole idea is that you whirl about the weighted end on the rope, while holding the kama end close for adjacent use. Seems like a pretty awesome Pathfinder weapon.
I see some disadvantages:
* Easy to sunder. Any cutting weapon can cut the rope.
* Requires lots of space. This isn't in the Pathfinder description, but proper use at 20' requires enough space to twirl it. E.g. It's not possible to reach 20' with this weapon in a 5' wide corridor. This would be my 'house rule' since I actually know this weapon and how it is used.
* May get entangled around a foe. Again, this is a house rule I'd apply, based on familiarity with the weapon. Note that, if this occurred, I'd also add the Entangled condition to the foe. Any ninja of mine who used this weapon would carry several. Three ought to do it.
Big advantages are:
* 20' reach
* concealable
* threatens both reach and adjacent
Cool! Thanks for bringing this up! Nice discussion, above.
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Right, 10' rope, so 10' reach. My bad. The 20' range increment won't ever come up. The weapon description doesn't really make clear which end threatens when. I'd treat it as a double weapon, where one end threatens at reach and the other end threatens adjacent. It absolutely requires two hands to threaten with the reach end, although the kama end only requires one hand and is a Light Weapon. Again, because that's how it's supposed to be used. I've watched the ninjutsu students (and 6th dan instructor) use the thing.
I'd check with you GM. I'd be slightly leery of bringing one into PFS, since their might be some table variation. Should be fine, though.
Edit: The best Samurai movies ever made are Samurai I, II, and III. They tell the dramatized story of Musashi Miyamoto. Musashi introduced Two Weapon Fighting as a Thing for skilled warriors in Japan. Samurai III is so beautiful it may make you cry. Samurai II has the best 80 on 1 fight scene ever made, even better for being historically accurate. Samurai II also features Musashi dueling with Baiden, a master of the kusurigama (chain and sickle), the precursor to the kyoketsu shoge. Also the best use of Difficult Terrain in a cinematic fight. These old movies are not available through netflix. They are available on Amazon and via torrent.
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That's actually pretty awesome, and works. A reach weapon wielder can strike over an adjacent ally, to 15' and 20', if they are least twice as tall. The short adjacent ally does not provide soft cover, so AoOs are a go.
I've used this in Pathfinder, and it works great. The big reach weapon wielder dices foes from the 2nd rank, as they approach, and the dwarven brick prevents foes from getting at the 2nd rank.
Pretty simple and it will keep you able to full attack.
Use Lunge to trip and full attack at 15 ft. Next turn sure they'll stand up out of your reach, but if they wanna move up to you they gotta eat another trip at 10 ft. If they wanna attack your buds they can walk around you and probably lack the speed to make it, double move and get no attack, or drop their melee weapon and whip out the bow.
My party has a frontline of anti-paladin and wolf mounted hunter. The enlarged Cleric just pokes from behind us.
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Another plan is to have a LOT of reach. People can't come close as easily if they have to traverse a 20ft zone of terror.
Take a look at the following:
- Enlarge Person spell
- Long Arm spell (dip into alchemist or investigator, UMD or infusion)
- Growth subdomain. You can even use the shrinking after the round to your advantage to reposition yourself backwards.
- Aberrant Bloodrager's aberrant reach
- Abyssal Bloodrager's demonic bulk; is one is more powerful than most people realize. The sheer speed of the growth makes this strong. You can take a 5ft step, Enlarge forwards, and your reach weapon's reach increases. That's extending your threatened area 30ft forwards, and THEN you can start a full attack.
- Living Monolith PrC. Much like the Abyssal Bloodrager, but with quite a different flavour.
>Insert obligatory mentioning of the Whip in a reach thread.
15 ft of reach. Provokes out to 10 ft. No "dead zone" as with other reach weapons.
All at the low low cost of 2-3 feats.
Those feats be expensive and you can get the same deal out of lunge for one feat and -2 AC.
or lucern hammer ..all 3 blunt, pierce,slash
Those feats be expensive and you can get the same deal out of lunge for one feat and -2 AC.
Not true. Lunge only increases reach during YOUR turn, not your opponent's turn.
Even if it were true, you could still get Lunge on top of using a Whip and increase your reach further.
i wish spring attack did'nt have such a feat tax with dodge and mobilty
Those feats be expensive and you can get the same deal out of lunge for one feat and -2 AC.Not true. Lunge only increases reach during YOUR turn, not your opponent's turn.
Even if it were true, you could still get Lunge on top of using a Whip and increase your reach further.
Whips can only threaten 10 ft though, so they have the same threat range during the only time that matters AKA the enemies turn.
For 1 feat a Bardiche has 15 ft of attack range and a 10 ft threat range.
For what? 3 feats? A whip has 15 ft of attack range and a 10 ft threat range. Sure you can lunge too, but at that point you've spent 4 feats to do slightly more than what a Bardiche did for 1 feat.
Insain Dragoon: You are wrong. Lunge only increases reach during YOUR turn, not your opponent's turn.
Reread my post man, I never once made any mention of using lunge to increase reach during your opponents turn.
To repeat.
After taking
Weapon Focus Whip, Whip Mastery, and Improved Whip mastery you can
Attack at up to 15 ft
threaten squares up to 10 ft away
After taking
Lunge with a regular pole arm
Attack at up to 15 ft
threaten squares at 10 ft
take a -2 to AC
In other words with a regular polearm you get all the benfits, except threatening adjacent squares, as with a whip at only the cost of 1 feat and 2 AC.
Thus my initial statement of
"Those feats be expensive and you can get the same deal out of lunge for one feat and -2 AC" is completely and entirely valid.
I honestly wonder where in my post you got tripped up?
And I never said that you made mention of using Lunge to increase reach during your opponents turn.
What you said:
Those feats be expensive and you can get the same deal out of lunge for one feat and -2 AC.
That is not true. With a Whip you threaten ALL squares within the 10'. With a polearm you do not. And you can attack in any of those squares all the time. If you get the Whip Mastery Feats you threaten in those squares as well. If you get Lunge with a Whip you can attack at further away than you can with a polearm. Furthermore, increasing your reach with other things (like Enlarge, Long Arm, Combat Patrol, Aberant Bloodline, Pliant Gloves, etc.) all increase your attack and threaten zone even greater with a Whip than with a polearm.
There are other benefits of using a Whip that not all polearms have.
A Whip can deal non-lethal damage without taking a -4 which is great for things like Enforcer
You can use it to grab stuff
You can use a Whip as a Grappling Hook
You can use it in a Grapple
You can use it one handed or two handed
If you use it with one hand in a grapple you take no penalty
You can use it to Tie Up an opponent
You can Tie Up an opponent without having them Pinned at a -5 penalty
I didn't get tripped up (pun, right?) at all. I think you may have.
Just keep in mind that not all enemies are melee ones. Archers don't have to worry about getting close to you, and neither do spellcasters who can make their concentration checks to cast defensively. Then there are things fighting from inside substances (some elementals, incorporeal undead)...
I think you need to reread
While wielding a whip, you threaten the area of your natural reach plus 5 feet.You can also use a whip to grasp an unattended Small or Tiny object within your whip’s reach and pull that object into your square. To do so, you must hit AC 10 with a melee touch attack. Further, you can use the whip to grasp onto an object within your whip’s reach, using 5 feet of your whip as if it were a grappling hook, allowing you to use the rest of your whip to swing on like a rope. As a free action, you can release the object your whip is grasping, but you cannot use the whip to attack while the whip is grasping an object.
To repeat once more
After taking
Weapon Focus Whip, Whip Mastery, and Improved Whip mastery you can
Attack at up to 15 ft
threaten squares up to 10 ft away
After taking
Lunge with a regular pole arm
Attack at up to 15 ft
threaten squares at 10 ft
take a -2 to AC
Yes whip has a few other little boons, but being a "trip weapon" doesn't mean much since any weapon can be used to trip. The other boons are usually situationally semi-useful or require feat investment (You've already invested three feats, so good luck with that) to be considered.
Just realized an enlarged whip wielder only threatens up to 15 ft while an enlarged polearm threats at 15 and 20.
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Hmmmm. It occurs to me that, when using reach tactics, one doesn't especially want to keep enemies away. One wants a foe to approach, so one can get an AoO. Then one either trades full attacks (if allies positioned themselves such that one can't just move away without exposing said allies to intense harm) or else one moves away and does it again.
I guess what I'm saying is that, in my experience, keeping enemies away isn't really an issue. Neither is threatening adjacent. My reach fighter is usually on a team with at least one non-reach fighter. My standard thing is to whack foes as they approach, sometimes twice, then provide flanking and leave a non-reach ally (ideally a TWF rogue!) to finish them off while my PC moves on to other targets. Or just 5' step away and full attack, now that the foe has been kind enough to trade their one attack for my 1-2 attacks plus my Full Attack. The foe has to survive 2-5 of my attacks before they get a Full Attack in return. That just doesn't happen very often, because the foe is usually dead.
Low Level Sequence
My round one - Ready an action to attack the first foe to come within reach.
Foe- Move up to me, survive my Readied Attack, then survive my AoO, then attack once.
My round two- Possibly move away (maybe drawing an AoO) and ready another action, or possibly 5' step away and attack. Depends whether the foe gets multiple attacks on a Full Attack. I.e. Vs an Orc I'll 5' step and full attack, vs a Ghast I'll move away and take the AoO.
high Level Sequence
My round one - Cast a spell
Foe- Move up to me, survive my AoO, then attack once.
My round two- Probably 5' step away and Full Attack. Foe must thus survive my 4 attacks before having any chance to Full Attack back.
The only situation where I really care about keeping enemies away is foes with many natural attacks, such as ghouls, ghasts, and trolls.
Yes whip has a few other little boons, but being a "trip weapon" doesn't mean much since any weapon can be used to trip.
Wrong again. It means that you can drop your weapon instead of being knocked prone if you fail by 10 or more on your CMB check. You can also use a trip weapon to do drag and reposition combat maneuvers.
Yes whip has a few other little boons, but being a "trip weapon" doesn't mean much since any weapon can be used to trip.Wrong again. It means that you can drop your weapon instead of being knocked prone if you fail by 10 or more on your CMB check. You can also use a trip weapon to do drag and reposition combat maneuvers.
and for the cost of 1 sp get a weapon cord. dropped weapon never moves away from you (adjacent), and you can retrieve it as a move action. pick it up and move 5ft and still attack or get ready for more aoo's. still provokes but take 5ft and then move action to retrieve weapon cord attached weapon. it used to be a swift action but was changed...boo
Bran Towerfall: I'm not sure if you are referring to a Whip or a polearm (or other weapon). If you trip someone with a weapon that does not have the Trip weapon quality you can not drop your weapon to avoid being knocked prone. Weapon cord or not.
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I don't know about you, but when I actually ran a Combat maneuver character I couldn't fail by 10 or more even if I rolled a 1. In fact in most cases even if I rolled a 1 it would've still worked if 1s didn't auto miss. The trip weapon quality is functionally useless. Anything I could've failed by 10 or more was also too big or had too many legs for tripping to be a viable tactic.
If you want to run a whip character that's fine and you can run it all day and I'll even root for you for trying something original. If you say your whip character is as effective as a polearm character then that's when I have to step up because that's definitely not true.
/facepalm
The Trip quality is not functionally useless. I gave specifics on it and even provided a link. At this point your argument is tantamount to shaking your head fiercely while saying, "Nuh uh!"
Luckily, I do not need to convince you of anything. The rules are on my side as I plainly laid out. If there is misinformation being given I will point to the rules and what they say. If you feel you would like to argue, argue with the rules, not me.
If it's impossible to fail by more than ten then an ability that only comes into effect when you fail by more than ten is, in fact, functionally useless.
If you think the trip quality means something then actually run a trip character who takes trip feats at the appropriate levels and compare it to CMD values. The super troll from Kingmaker book 2, which you fight at character level 5 or 6 had a 27 CMD. At that level I had at least a +16 while tripping so even against the hardest tripping challenges that are possible I would only ever utilize the trip weapon property if I rolled a natural one. That character wasn't even a lore warden either.
At that point, from an optimization standpoint, the question is whether I want to use a reach+trip weapon or a Bardiche that doesn't have trip, but does have a 19-20 crit rating.
As previously mentioned, among many other reasons. Drag and Reposition.
So your argument is that for even greater feat investment the trip weapon quality means something?
I'll just pop in and make the usual plug for a level of Living Monolith and the swift-action character-level Enlarge Person goodness it brings. Those Osirians really know how to work a polearm in style.
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You can always throw a javelin. Take 1 hand off your polearm (free action), draw javelin (move action), throw javelin (standard). Put hand back on polearm so you threaten with reach (free action).
With quickdraw you cam even rapidshot javelins.
At one point I was considering a light hand crossbow for the cool Ezio assasins creed factor but decided against it as you cant load a crossbow with 1 hand, and the idea of walking with a loaded crossbow just felt wrong.