I would love to see a magic class that moves completely away from the idea of pre-defined spells. Something more akin to the oWoD Mage system, where you know basic principles and put them together on the fly to cast magic effects.Like word casting?
Yes, thanks, forgot about that one.
And wealth many times that of what is appropriate for his level.
- Best house in a village
- Mithril Chainshirt
- +1(?) Sword of Orc DetectionBilbo is ballin'.
I think he might work as an Investigator (Sleuth). He does decipher lots of things, make skill checks you wouldn't necessarily expect him to succeed at, hit opponents hard in moments of crisis despite not being a trained warrior, and escape a lot. He definitely has some kind of luck/grit pool.
Even still, the Sczarni swindler gets + 1/2 level to hit for one minute 3+Cha mod per day as a standard action.
An Investigator gets +1/2 level to hit and damage for Int mod rounds unlimited times per day as a move action.
One of the best rogue abilities in print, and an investigator still gets a better version of it.
True, but the Sczarni swindler keeps full sneak attack progression. Don't get me wrong, I'd still consider the investigator the better combatant (especially when he picks up Quick Study) but if you could use one of the various ways to essentially guarantee sneak attack damage on the rogue then +1/2 level to hit could help actually putting him in the foot race rather than (badly) hiding in the restrooms.
I really like this archetype actually, it does a great job of combining flavor and fun mechanics.:)
Would have been nice if it was compatible with the ninja though.
Bloodrager has magical abilities at first level, that blossom to casting at 4th.That's the problem. I'm talking about a class that starts with magical abilities, and then never gets any more.
A Gnome Fighter with an SLA that takes Arcane Strike at 1st level is probably the best example of what I mean. He doesn't get more magic, he just gets better at using the original magical gift he had. Sadly, that's been rules-patched.
Except that you can't do this any more . . . .
Bloodrager has magical abilities at first level, that blossom to casting at 4th.That's the problem. I'm talking about a class that starts with magical abilities, and then never gets any more.
A Gnome Fighter with an SLA that takes Arcane Strike at 1st level is probably the best example of what I mean. He doesn't get more magic, he just gets better at using the original magical gift he had. Sadly, that's been rules-patched.
Except that you can't do this any more . . . .
Hence the 'Sadly, that's been rules-patched.' at the end.
I think he might work as an Investigator (Sleuth). He does decipher lots of things, make skill checks you wouldn't necessarily expect him to succeed at, hit opponents hard in moments of crisis despite not being a trained warrior, and escape a lot. He definitely has some kind of luck/grit pool.
And wealth many times that of what is appropriate for his level.
- Best house in a village
- Mithril Chainshirt
- +1(?) Sword of Orc DetectionBilbo is ballin'.
I must use this wonderful class.
Also, I completely forgot to add the one ring to the list of Bilbo's expensive items. What's the gp value of an incredibly cursed ring of greater invisibility?
Uhh... I'm going to need to see an example of what you mean. I don't see a niche for a class that doesn't do anything to assist the party in succeeding.Define "succeeding." I don't limit that word to combat.
In some campaigns, having a merchant, historian, researcher, or other non-combatant can be a very valuable thing.
Err... You could just have a Bard or Investigator (or anything else with skills) trained in knowledge skills. A specifically non-combat class is fairly useless when there are combat classes that are already fully capable of doing everything you could possibly need to do outside of combat.
Err... You could just have a Bard or Investigator (or anything else with skills) trained in knowledge skills. A specifically non-combat class is fairly useless when there are combat classes that are already fully capable of doing everything you could possibly need to do outside of combat.Uhh... I'm going to need to see an example of what you mean. I don't see a niche for a class that doesn't do anything to assist the party in succeeding.Define "succeeding." I don't limit that word to combat.
In some campaigns, having a merchant, historian, researcher, or other non-combatant can be a very valuable thing.
Indeed. Pathfinder assumes that people want to play adventurers of some stripe, not NPCs who would never leave the safety of their university/shop or do anything dangerous. I would think a historian can be quite nicely represented by ranks in Knowledge (History), or a merchant with an appropriate Profession skill and using the property rules from Ultimate Campaign.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, but the pathfinder merchant class can use money as a weapon, behold my deadly "GP Rain" power.;)
Actually, that could be interesting. A minion master class like packlord or broodmaster, but with humanoid minions. It could represent a merchant who hires soldiers, or a princess and her honor guard. Now there's something I'd like to see... :)
This is something I've thought about before. Not deeply, but I've contemplated it. Some thoughts:
*A class like this would be a bit hard to justify in a game which, while having certain tabletop Wargame elements, is primarily a game about several dudes going on an adventure. A ranger's pet is easy to roleplay as an afterthought but a person has desires and ambitions of their own. This class runs the risk of becoming an adventurer who throws adventurers at you.
*If the humanoids controlled were somehow "lesser", I could see this working a little better. Tainted ogres/goblins/kobolds seem plausible and less of a roleplay challenge. Less of a challenge but still difficult. Not to mention the alignment issue that comes with enslaving (relatively) intelligent creatures.
I would love to be conVince otherwise but at the moment I find such a class problematic
FMA Alchemists can be fairly functionally built as kineticists, I think.
Indeed. Pathfinder assumes that people want to play adventurers of some stripe, not NPCs who would never leave the safety of their university/shop or do anything dangerous. I would think a historian can be quite nicely represented by ranks in Knowledge (History), or a merchant with an appropriate Profession skill and using the property rules from Ultimate Campaign.
Depends upon the type of adventure. If the adventure involves a lot of roleplaying (especially but not limited to urban areas), then classes that are not combat-focused but provide a lot of out-of-combat abilities will still have a lot to do.
Indeed. Pathfinder assumes that people want to play adventurers of some stripe, not NPCs who would never leave the safety of their university/shop or do anything dangerous. I would think a historian can be quite nicely represented by ranks in Knowledge (History), or a merchant with an appropriate Profession skill and using the property rules from Ultimate Campaign.Depends upon the type of adventure. If the adventure involves a lot of roleplaying (especially but not limited to urban areas), then classes that are not combat-focused but provide a lot of out-of-combat abilities will still have a lot to do.
Once again, when classes like the Investigator, Inquisitor, and Bard exist you really have no excuse for making a character that can only do out-of-combat.
^If they were better at out-of-combat stuff than Investigator, Inquisitor, or Bard, they'd still have use.
I've heard that Exalted (totally different system) has a Diplomancer (not sure of exact name) class that is awesome at the out-of-combat stuff, in a way that is actually really important. Now, Pathfinder currently doesn't have such a class, but this is the thread about Classes That Are Still Needed, after all.
A non-magical battlefield controller would be interesting.
Also, a battlefield commander would be cool. Someone who gets both immediate actions and swift actions, and can use them to buff and debuff in major and minor ways.
I've heard that Exalted (totally different system) has a Diplomancer (not sure of exact name) class that is awesome at the out-of-combat stuff
Uh, Exalted doesn't have classes, and comparing Exalted to PF is abit... unfair. It's a game where you can beat up gods immediately after character creation.
Contributor
|
Exalted has an entire system for social combat. And there are characters who specialise in it, just as there are people playing Invincible Sword Princess. They're roughly equally scary, if you haven't got appropriate defences (note; the soon-to-appear 3e will be rather different).Uh, Exalted doesn't have classes, and comparing Exalted to PF is abit... unfair. It's a game where you can beat up gods immediately after character creation.I've heard that Exalted (totally different system) has a Diplomancer (not sure of exact name) class that is awesome at the out-of-combat stuff
I have a couple of (1st edition) Exalted books, and I was always interested in playing. But "Invincible Sword Princess" completely sold me. I really have to play now. :D
EDIT: Although I'm way more likely to be a Diplomancer in any system I play in...
Exalted has an entire system for social combat.Uh, Exalted doesn't have classes, and comparing Exalted to PF is abit... unfair. It's a game where you can beat up gods immediately after character creation.I've heard that Exalted (totally different system) has a Diplomancer (not sure of exact name) class that is awesome at the out-of-combat stuff
This is about what I was expecting. The problem with a purely non-combat class in Pathfinder is that Pathfinder's non-combat rules are kinda balls; they're an afterthought thrown in so you have an excuse to roll a dice during a story section before you get back to the fights where all the intricacies of the system lie.
It's a weakness of the system to be sure, but I like the combat and character building aspects of Pathfinder enough to keep playing.
|
Hey everyone! Just wanted to let you know the Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover is now available right here on Paizo.com!!
Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover
Features a dozen new classes (plus archetypes, spells, feats, and more)
Spell-less Ranger: instead of spells, the spell-less ranger relies on a host of specialized abilities, including ranger talents, nature’s healing, and a deadly stealth attack that can be used in any of his various favored terrains or against his many favored enemies.
Spirit Shaman: spirit shamans form deep connections with the spirits of nature, have a host of nature oriented abilities, and gain the guidance and aid of a powerful animal spirit guide.
Battle Scion: king of sword and spell, a heavily armed and armored warrior who can sling combat-centric spells when necessary.
White Necromancer: potent healers as well as powerful spellcasters, white necromancers embrace the the full necromantic triad, which involves tapping the essence of life as well as that of death and undeath.
Mystic Archer: dedicated to mastery of the bow, a mystic archer seamlessly blends the damage-dealing potential of the arcane with the deadly skills of an archer, using spells to enhance her natural abilities.
Theurge: supreme spellcaster whose strength lies in the ability to draw upon, combine, and manipulate the powers of magic in all its forms, whether arcane or divine.
Priest: armed only with the divine might of her god, a priest’s connection to her deity forms the very core of her being—and through this unwavering reverence, she gains her power and her strength.
Trickster: merging arcane magic, roguish skills, and a special forte ability to perform incredible acrobatics, summon a magical familiar to act as an accomplice, beguile enemies, or steal spells as they're being cast.
Skin-Changer: skin‑changers truly embrace the untamed, animalistic aspects of nature. Rather than bonding with an animal companion, the skin‑changer actually assumes the form of animals and fights with the fury of nature itself.
Tinkerer: master inventors, builders and engineers, tinkerers are experts with all manner of mechanical contraptions, clockworks, mechanical traps, and explosives, who always keep their clockwork companions close by.
Warlock: a warlock gains power, spells, and the ability to fire dread bolts of arcane force through contact with mysterious and forbidden forces, using his intelligent bond weapon as a conduit.
Savant: able to weave stories into reality, and actually assume the guise of the figures in those stoies!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's some REALLY aggressive advertising. Like... Pretty sure he searched for every thread in the past 4 years that had mentioned "classes" and "shifting". That's a lot of thread necroing
Sorry!! Just really proud of the book and want to be sure everyone who might want to check it out has a chance to!
Fair enough though ... might have gotten a tad over-zelous :)
Hey everyone! Just wanted to let you know the Expanded and Updated New Paths Compendium Hardcover is now available right here on Paizo.com!!
Is this considered 1st party product or 3rd party? We don't play with 3rd party at our table.
Hey I'm Just proud to see my thread live.
I think a 3.5 "warlorck" substitute is still lacking. The kineticist was a legit attempt at this, But many people shy away from psionics and the idea of using CON as a casting stat unless you take some archetype that ruins the build.
Soneone mentioned a martial controller. A specialist at battle cries, combat maneuvers, intimidating enemies and rallying the troops. Fighter is reasonably good at this but I'd love to see a,clasz that specializes here.
Hmm I would love to see Rune Casters as a viable class, specifically like the Patryn (who have the runes tattooed on their skin and the runes flare up when they cast spells) and Sartan (who must do elaborate dances to 'draw' the runes on the ground) from Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's Death Gate Cycle
I love that series. It’s what originally got me reading fantasy many years ago.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
2) A dedicated shifter: Sure, the druid shifts. But the druid is also a pet master and a full caster who is caught up in his nature theme. We need a transformer that covers animals as well as humanoids, monstrous humanoids, undead, abberations, dragons, etc.
We still need this, sadly enough.
There are some classes that I have tried to homebrew/write but have been dissatisfied with the results.
1) A divine version of the alchemist. Mine was a better healer than the alchemist, didn’t have a mutagen, and had an emphasis on rituals.
2) A druidic “paladin”. A champion of nature, so to speak. Mine gradually gained some fey-like qualities and bonuses against “unnatural” creatures such as aberrations and undead.
3) A spontaneous nature-based full caster. Mine had a class feature that could change each day, like the changing of seasons.
4) a full-BAB class with 4-level spell casting. This could takes a number of forms: an anti-spellcaster, an elemental type, a 3.5 hexblade type, or a eldritch knight or magus type.
ummm Ciaran, for your #4 there, there are currently three of those, the Paladin/Antipaladin, the Ranger, and the Bloodrager. Could you maybe be a little more specific? >.>
I think the missing phrase in #4 is "intelligence based" since the Paladin/Antipaladin and Bloodrager are CHA based and the Ranger is WIS based. The other 4-level caster, the medium which is pseudo full-BAB some of the time, is also CHA based.
Right now all we have for a full-BAB INT-based 4-level caster is that really bad fighter archetype. If you were instead to just make a whole class around "you can fight, you can do some magic, and you're intelligent" coalescing around some kind of gimmick it would work a lot better.
The current best options for "STR and INT based characters" are kind of either too magical (Magi, Investigators, & Occultists) or not nearly magical enough (Lore Wardens, mostly).
|
|
The Archeologist bard is a magical rogue. Their spell list has many utility spells that further boost their ability for trickery and deceit. Instead of combat spells they have illusion and enchantment, but that actually works better. Being able to go invisible, teleport and turn gaseous makes for an almost unstoppable thief. Combine Heroism with Archeologist Luck and lingering performance and they become the ultimate skill monkey.Does he get sneak attack?
Im looking for a rogue mage like that the magus is a fighter mage, so I want a combat rogue mage who can also have other areas of expertise.
But all in all we are getting close to what seems like most character classes are covered
I do like the idea of a couple more steam punk like characters to go along with the gun slinger
Not Pathfinder, but IIRC correctly, D&D 3.5 had the Beguiler class, which was essentially a magic rogue. Porting that over shouldn't be too difficult.
With a Panolopy the Occultist becomes a Full BAB 6th level caster. It's close.
Oh, don't get me wrong I love the Trappings of the Warrior Occultist to death, but I think there's room in there for a different "smart strong guy".
Specifically the Trappings occultist is incredibly limited in terms of what spells they can cast- for your first nine levels you can cast spells from only 3 schools of magic. You'd have a very different feeling character right out of the gate if the hypothetical 1.0 BAB 4/9 casting STR/INT class could cast magic from any school, just from a thematic list.
Additionally, very little of what the occultist does isn't magical. Whereas the Ranger, for example, gets bonus feats, tracking ability, favored terrain, hunter's bond, etc. which has very little to do with the ranger's eventual ability to cast spells. So if the hypothetical casting class also had class features to reflect martial prowess, tactical acumen, indomitability, etc. that would fill a thematic niche the occultist really doesn't.
I mean, if nothing else we could create a Ranger to the Magus or Occultist's Hunter. Since the Ranger and the Hunter can coexist, likewise the Inquisitor and the Paladin.
There are some classes that I have tried to homebrew/write but have been dissatisfied with the results.
1) A divine version of the alchemist. Mine was a better healer than the alchemist, didn’t have a mutagen, and had an emphasis on rituals.
2) A druidic “paladin”. A champion of nature, so to speak. Mine gradually gained some fey-like qualities and bonuses against “unnatural” creatures such as aberrations and undead.
3) A spontaneous nature-based full caster. Mine had a class feature that could change each day, like the changing of seasons.
4) a full-BAB class with 4-level spell casting. This could takes a number of forms: an anti-spellcaster, an elemental type, a 3.5 hexblade type, or a eldritch knight or magus type.
1) Nothing prevents an alchemist from taking the Believer's Boon/Believer's Hands feats, and/or the Eldritch Heritage (Celestial) feat, to be a "divine alchemist." Or a divine caster (such as a cleric or inquisitor of Brigh, Haagenti, Norgorber, Orgesh, or Qi Zhong) from learning Craft (Alchemy) (or taking the Artifice/Alchemy sub-domain).
2) Divine tracker ranger? Possibly spirit ranger for a more mystical connection to nature instead of a deity (possibly with wild hunter as well)? A fey trickster mesmerist could possibly be used, as well (more as a "nature inquisitor/warpriest," but close).
4) Bloodrager works pretty well.
Things we still need
1. A dedicated full BAB shifter class that is good and versatile at shifting.
2. An Artificer that generates most of it's utility and combat potential from the creation and use of magic items.
3. A dedicated summoner that only uses summoning as per summon monster or summon nature's Ally.
4. A pure skill Monkey that uses skills both in and out of combat. A mundane controller.
5. A monster Hunter that kills monsters to take special abilities from them via making equipment out of their parts.
6. A simplified magic class.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
5. A monster Hunter that kills monsters to take special abilities from them via making equipment out of their parts.
I feel like the Occultist archetype that does this (the Psychodermist I think) works pretty well, but maybe the "use a monster's special ability with a part of it's corpse" ability should come earlier than level 12. Though I guess that's a really powerful ability in the hands of someone who knows the bestiary well.
ummm Ciaran, for your #4 there, there are currently three of those, the Paladin/Antipaladin, the Ranger, and the Bloodrager. Could you maybe be a little more specific? >.>
My mistake. Possible cabbage is on to it though. I meant to say an arcane caster. I forgot about the bloodrager but I’m unfamiliar with it and have never seen one in play. I guess I’d like to see one with a spell book or at least doesn’t rage.
ummm Ciaran, for your #4 there, there are currently three of those, the Paladin/Antipaladin, the Ranger, and the Bloodrager. Could you maybe be a little more specific? >.>My mistake. Possible cabbage is on to it though. I meant to say an arcane caster. I forgot about the bloodrager but I’m unfamiliar with it and have never seen one in play. I guess I’d like to see one with a spell book or at least doesn’t rage.
There is a fighter archetype for the Int based, spell book, 4th level casting, with full BAB. It's not a particularly GREAT one (I feel it gives up too much) but it is playable/decent archetype. It worked well for me in a mid-opt game. Child of Acavna and Amaznen. Of course, I slapped the variant multiclass Magus onto the chassis and did a few other things (mostly to get rage-like abilities). Your mileage may vary.
The problem with the Child of Acavna and Amaznen is that it's building something valid off of a fairly weak chassis. Like in order to not make it the best fighter ever, it makes relatively even trades of fighter features that aren't particularly strong in a vacuum. That and space concerns prevent it from having its own spell list, like ideally the hypothetical 4/9 1.0 class would.
If you would build the thing from the ground up, you'd likely end up with something much more playable a la the Bloodrager since you're not worried about "this is archetype is strictly better than the base class".
If you would build the thing from the ground up, you'd likely end up with something much more playable a la the Bloodrager since you're not worried about "this is archetype is strictly better than the base class".
I built my Child of Acazna and Amaznen with the following options and by level 5, it was fairly competent.
Human
(Focused Study & Draconic Heritage alt racial traits)
STR > INT = Con = Dex > Wis > CHA (dumped CHA to 7, since we use 15 point buy)
B) Skill focus (Perception)
1) Eldritch Heritage (Draconic) [was retrained at level 3, pick whatever you want till then)
4) Mad Magic (combat feat retrained at level 5, or wait till level 6 to pick normally)
5) Raging blood (need before Mad Magic)
Picked up bloodline familiar to get hedgehog for will save bonus.
Sure, I could have just played a Bloodrager, and gotten better powers, but there are things you can do now on the fighter chassis that make it worth sticking out.
|
An archetype I'd kind of like to see is a sort of "Jekyll-and-Hyde" variant, where your character has their own skills and abilities but also a sort of "alter ego" that he can transform into. The Master Chymist was a fairly decent attempt, but it leans too hard on the alchemical flavor and puts more emphasis on the fact that Hyde is a separate personality who may or may not remember everything Jekyll does, and vice versa.
I'm thinking maybe more of a rogue/bard-like character, that gains powers from, say, a demonic creature in exchange for willingly letting the creature possess it from time to time. With some sort of mechanic to reflect the fact that Jekyll and Hyde are basically competing for screen time, to make sure that the player can't just go Hyde at "roll initiative" and re-Jekyll once the fight's over. Both forms should have their contributions both in and out of combat.
Silent Saturn So like a vigilante that's alter ego is basically mutagen template thrown on (including the penalties)?
Personally I would like to see a non spell casting shapeshifter still.
|
2. An Artificer that generates most of it's utility and combat potential from the creation and use of magic items.
Tangentially, I'd love for there to be a feat that allowed a character to generate a certain level-based gp value worth of temporary expendables each day. The consumables would be chosen when the feat was taken, and could be poisons, potions, scrolls, alchemical items, etc. and would be not sellable (obviously temporary to anyone appraising them, but otherwise usable by, or on, others, like normal potions, poisons, scrolls, etc.). At the end of the day, any of these items not used would fall apart into their components and be able to be re-crafted the next day into the same thing, or something else, depending on your needs.
3. A dedicated summoner that only uses summoning as per summon monster or summon nature's Ally.
An Eidolon-less summoner would be interesting. The Master Summoner archetype was on that road, but flinched.
4. A pure skill Monkey that uses skills both in and out of combat. A mundane controller.
Oh, I'd love for a magic-less class that could effectively support a party with the Heal skill, or perform feats of Handle Animal or Diplomacy or some other skill with the capability of competing and remaining relevant in a world of magic and monsters, sort of how like the Rogue manages to get extra use out of Disable Device, or the Bard gets extra mileage out of Perform (obviously not necessarily to that level, since what the Bard is doing in pretty obviously magical!).