Weapon damage as far as I could find with searching has a chart with size increases the weapon damage increases, and pretty much no luck anywhere else to help define it.
A long sword with corrosive enhancement does 1d8 slashing, and 1d6 acid damage, but would they both be weapon damage?
Faq says that inspire courage affects rays giving it the bonus on weapon damage rolls, so scorching ray does fire damage that's also weapon damage?
Alchemist fire deals 1d6 fire damage, and 1 splash damage. The 1d6 portion weapon damage, and the splash is different, or they both weapon damage?
It is said under the Critical Hits and Vital Strike sections of the Core that weapon damage does not include weapon abilities, like flaming. However, I'm not sure where strength plays into this.
First, Weapon damage as you saw in those charts references the damage that comes from the physical impact of a weapon (slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning), which is aptly classified as physical damage. If the damage is caused by an energy type it is usually classified as energy damage. Physical damage is subject to DR and energy damage is subject to resistance.
The corrosive long sword does 1d8 slashing (physical) and 1d6 acid (energy)
Second, inspire courage gives a bonus to saving throws against fear effects. Are you thinking of something different? Assuming you are correct, ray's are a special type of spell that is considered weapon-like in that they can benefit from some feats and spells that affect weapons. When damage is added it is almost always added to the primary type. In the case of scorching ray you get an increase in fire energy damage.
For alchemist fire it does 1d6 fire damage, so the damage is all fire. There isn't any physical damage that comes from being hit with whatever contained it. The splash damage is also fire.
Is there a particular rule about weapon damage you are wondering about? Most rules that speak on weapon damage usually define it as not including abilities or energy types.
@Conan, vital strike ends with
"These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."
@Amrel faq for what I mean.
I agree that they do separate slashing, piercing, fire etc. but what is "weapon damage"? Apparently alchemist fire does fire damage, but it's from.a splash weapon, so isn't it "weapon damage"? A tiny swarm would not be damaged by the 1d6 fire, but would be harmed by the splash according to the rules if weapon damage is anything done by a weapon.
Searanov, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but can you cite rules that prove an exception to it not being "weapon damage"?
@Shar Tahl, I'm not debating it deals fire damage, but this thread is trying to figure out what "weapon damage" is. Alchemist fire directs you to page 202 "throw splash weapon" rules, which state these weapons are ranged weapons. Scorching ray to me is fire damage, but isn't the faq stating that it's less specifically weapon damage?
@Conan, vital strike ends with
"These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."
@Amrel faq for what I mean.
I agree that they do separate slashing, piercing, fire etc. but what is "weapon damage"? Apparently alchemist fire does fire damage, but it's from.a splash weapon, so isn't it "weapon damage"? A tiny swarm would not be damaged by the 1d6 fire, but would be harmed by the splash according to the rules if weapon damage is anything done by a weapon.
Ah, that faq says you make a ranged attack with some spells. That in and of itself doesn't mean that you are dealing with weapon damage as you are attacking with a spell, not a weapon.
To answer your question though I do not think weapon damage is fully defined by the rules. Vital strike, upon a second reading, seems to indicate that damage coming specifically from the damage dice listed on the weapon table is weapon damage.
I come to this conclusion because vital strike says "Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together" and then later "These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total."
However we do not have anything else that indicates if other types of damage are or are not weapon damage.
In the case of the slash weapon you are attacking with the weapon, but its contents are what actually inflict damage. The splash weapon alters the delivery of the item, but the object itself doesn't have its own damage dice. If you filled up a flask with water and threw it instead of alchemist fire it would do no damage.
Also to note, I believe splash damage is its own type of damage, not weapon damage.
All that being said this is a good question! I have never thought about it.
Could you cite rules to support your explanation to differentiate the splash weapon damage from 'weapon damage'? Wouldn't inspire courage be added to it too such as scorching ray?
My apologies, I'm using a phone and have the wrong link.
It says the bonus applies to weapon damage rolls, and the faq points out "ray damage rolls" as the weapon damage rolls bonus applying to.
Seems that a swarm that's tiny is immune to splash weapons except for the one point of splash damage it shoots off.
"Weapon damage" is not a defined term but if you compare its usage then it is known to be the damage from the weapon not any enhancements such as flaming or frost. IIRC the combat chapter says weapon damage is multiplied on crit and the vital strike feat also calls out weapon damage. I am not home so it is difficult to check the exact wording.
Could you cite rules to support your explanation to differentiate the splash weapon damage from 'weapon damage'? Wouldn't inspire courage be added to it too such as scorching ray?
My apologies, I'm using a phone and have the wrong link.
It says the bonus applies to weapon damage rolls, and the faq points out "ray damage rolls" as the weapon damage rolls bonus applying to.
Seems that a swarm that's tiny is immune to splash weapons except for the one point of splash damage it shoots off.
That makes faq link makes so much more sense. My answer to that is simply that rays are treated like weapons, but they are not actually weapons (otherwise it would have just said a ray is a weapon). I think it is important to note that the FAQ specifically calls out ray attack and ray damage rolls, not that the ray makes weapon attack and weapon damage rolls (I acknowledge that wording might just be word choice and nothing more,).
As for splash damage, my reasoning comes from the splash damage rules:
"A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target"
In that statement the rules are calling out splash damage separately. You do direct hit damage (which is what you normally do, and may be weapon damage) and also splash damage. It is possible that splash damage is also weapon damage, but if that was the case I don't see why they would give it a separate name.
I would agree that a swarm of that size would be immune to the direct hit damage though, but only because the splash weapon calls one direct hit damage, and if you cant attack a swarm with a weapon I don't know how you would be able to score a direct hit with anything else.
I misread the Vital Strike, and I apologize for it with how it affected my other posts. It specifically says the damage dice is rolled twice, and other things are then added in. So, would this help support that flaming, corrosive etc is not "weapon damage dice" and thusly not considered "weapon damage"?
The FAQ says that the Bards inspire courage bonus to weapon damage gets added to ray damage rolls. Given a specific ray as scorching ray, it is getting a benefit for weapon damage rolls, so isn't it weapon damage as well as fire damage?
@boring, thanks for pointing out this faq that splash weapon damage is different than splash damage. Still no idea if one, both, or neither of these are "weapon damage" though, but inspire courage would be applied to the splash weapon damage I believe, so using the previous FAQ, it would be weapon damage, right?
Is there a particular reason it matters whether Scorching Ray is "weapon damage" and fire damage or simply fire damage that gets weapon damage bonuses to it because you make an attack roll with it? Not trying to be derisive, just curious if the distinction really matters.
It seems to me that Scorching Ray is energy damage. But it's a ray spell which gets to benefit from being treated like a weapon for some purposes.
Similarly, Flame Blade does not cause "weapon damage"; it causes fire damage. However, because it is a "weapon-like spell", it benefits from other effects that benefit actual weapons.
If Scorching Ray or Flame Blade actually did "weapon damage", what kind of damage are they doing? Is it piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing? Because that matters for DR and other potential purposes. If they just do energy damage and are simply treated as weapons for relevant effects, then you don't have to worry about the B/P/S thing.
Similarly, Alchemist's Fire doesn't do "weapon damage". It does fire damage. However, it's direct hit damage is treated like a weapon (thrown weapon) for the purpose of effects that modify weapon damage.
If the distinction ultimately matters, none of these things do actual "weapon damage"; they're just treated like weapons for certain modifiers and benefits. In short, if the weapon or attack doesn't appear on a chart somewhere with a B, P, or S next to it, it's not actually "weapon damage" (even if it benefits from things that affect weapon damage).
Type: Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S for slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune to attacks from certain types of weapons.
Some weapons deal damage of multiple types. If a weapon causes two types of damage, the type it deals is not half one type and half another; all damage caused is of both types. Therefore, a creature would have to be immune to both types of damage to ignore any of the damage caused by such a weapon.
In other cases, a weapon can deal either of two types of damage. In a situation where the damage type is significant, the wielder can choose which type of damage to deal with such a weapon.
Could you please cite where p/b/s on a chart defines weapon damage?
Tiny or smaller swarms are immune to weapon damage, so splash weapons may only do one point of splash damage only if the initial hit is weapon damage. Flaming might work if it's not considered "weapon damage dice".
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The following is my understanding of this situation, based on a combination of rules, FAQs, and guesswork for what those two leave out:
1) If it is treated as a weapon and deals damage, it is weapon damage. If this were not true then the FAQ that bardic music's "+X to weapon damage" benefit applies to them wouldn't make much sense, and neither would critical rules with respect to them. There is no differentiation between "weapon-like damage" and "weapon damage".
2) DR does not apply to energy damage. Period. DR triggers solely based on whether it's physical or not-physical and any other clarifications listed in its entry are essentially puffery (some of which have been explicitly FAQ'd, such as the whole "spells always ignore DR" issue that was fixed by FAQ).
3) Weapon damage is not a damage type, but a damage category. You can have fire weapon damage, nonlethal B+P weapon damage, negative energy weapon damage, etc. Generally speaking, if it deals damage and requires an attack roll, it's weapon damage.
4) Non-hitpoint damage (such as consitution damage) can be weapon damage for the purposes of criticals, but it is unclear how this interacts with vital strike and bonuses to weapon damage clearly do not increase it. I don't want to think about a Vital Strike shadow, so I'm going to assume it wasn't intended to work with non-hit-point damage.
5) Vital strike could be rephrased to "add the weapon's base damage dice to your total a second time as bonus damage dice" and would work the same. They chose the worst, most complicated way of phrasing the feat.
6) Damage bonuses apply to your weapon damage unless explicitly typed (EDIT: "untyped" being listed explicitly is, paradoxically, a type), in which case they are their own damage pool that is rolled and evaluated separately, and is not weapon damage. As such, bonuses such as bardic music should always have exactly 1 possible damage pool to be boosting.
7) "Weapon's damage dice" and "weapon damage" are different terms. The former is what you would read in a weapon's entry (e.g. a Rapier's 1d6). The latter is the actual damage pool you are rolling with all bonuses applied.
It's crazy to think by the rules that a tiny swarm is immune to alchemist fire and all these other things. You need to solely kill them with spells or little by little with the one point of splash damage a splash weapon produces.
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It's crazy to think by the rules that a tiny swarm is immune to alchemist fire and all these other things. You need to solely kill them with spells or little by little with the one point of splash damage a splash weapon produces.
There was a whole other thread about that. I feel that swarms of less than tiny size should've just been made an environmental hazard rather than a creature given that it's easy to build a party that can't do anything but die or run (or even just die) against a diminutive or fine swarm.
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As I understand it, "weapon damage" is not strictly defined anywhere, and so it's not always used with the exact same meaning.
In general, it seems to mean damage done by an attack on a specific target for which you had to make a to-hit roll. And in that case the weapon damage is the "core" damage dealt by the thing you're attacking with; so in the case of a +1 flaming longsword sword the 1d8+1 is weapon damage, but the 1d6 fire isn't. But an alchemist's bombs are also weapon damage, as is the damage from a scorching ray.
However, to show a counterpoint: older rules tend to assume that weapon damage is physical/kinetic damage. For example, the Damage Reduction rules talk about creatures shrugging off weapon damage, clearly meaning P/B/S damage. However, those rules are just a bit "off"; they probably mean all physical damage, not just that inflicted by weapons. But by a very narrow reading of RAW, you could apply DR against alchemist bombs but not falling damage.
So, now what? You'll have to weigh the meaning of the term every time you encounter it. It does not have a consistent meaning.
Could you cite rules to support your explanation to differentiate the splash weapon damage from 'weapon damage'? Wouldn't inspire courage be added to it too such as scorching ray?
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By the fact that it's described specifically as acid/alkali/fire/cold etc. depending on the type of flask.
On weapons with an elemental enchantment such as flaming, the flaming damage will be specifically called out as fire damage.
Is there something particular you have in mind for being so pedantic on the question?
I'm being pedantic due to the fact this is a rules discussion forum, and I want as much clarity and explanation as possible to learn and explain to others.
I'm not debating that they don't go the damage they say, but apparently they're blanketed into "weapon damage" due to how the faq is interpreted. What worries me is that the splash weapon doesn't work on swarms with weapon damage immunity.
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Could you cite rules to support your explanation to differentiate the splash weapon damage from 'weapon damage'? Wouldn't inspire courage be added to it too such as scorching ray?
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By the fact that it's described specifically as acid/alkali/fire/cold etc. depending on the type of flask.
On weapons with an elemental enchantment such as flaming, the flaming damage will be specifically called out as fire damage.
Is there something particular you have in mind for being so pedantic on the question?
I'm being pedantic due to the fact this is a rules discussion forum, and I want as much clarity and explanation as possible to learn and explain to others.
I'm not debating that they don't go the damage they say, but apparently they're blanketed into "weapon damage" due to how the faq is interpreted. What worries me is that the splash weapon doesn't work on swarms with weapon damage immunity.
Well, it partly does. The 1 point of splash damage works. But yes, it does seem rather anemic. It should probably do 1d6 damage *1.5 for area of effect, but since it doesn't exlicitly call out splash weapons as special they do not. This is a typical house-rule for my group, actually. It goes along with our "do a touch attack with fireball to negate the save for that target" houserule.
'weapon damage'a mentioned isn't a defined term. I can't see any other way to define it other than - weapon damage is damage from a physical weapon. Certain 'weapon-like' spells and effects benefit from effects such as inspire courage that affect weapons. That does not make them weapons and it does not make the damage they do weapon damage.
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'weapon damage'a mentioned isn't a defined term. I can't see any other way to define it other than - weapon damage is damage from a physical weapon. Certain 'weapon-like' spells and effects benefit from effects such as inspire courage that affect weapons. That does not make them weapons and it does not make the damage they do weapon damage.
It isn't "physical weapon damage", it's "weapon damage". Anything that acts like a weapon would deal weapon damage because there isn't anything else we can use as a basis to say it doesn't, and there is a FAQ that says it does (albeit indirectly).
Splash weapon direct hits don't damage swarms, not because it's "weapon damage" but because it's an effect that targets a single creature.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures
That's also the same paragraph that calls out swarms taking 150% damage from area effects.
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
I'm not trying to say the B/P/S thing is necessarily determinative because, as others have said, weapon damage isn't actually defined anywhere concretely. But it's probably a pretty good bet that if it doesn't do B/P/S, it isn't weapon damage. That a spell effect is "weapon-like" doesn't mean the damage is weapon damage. The point of that FAQ is to demonstrate that such spells benefit from things that augment weapon damage (because the spell-effects are functionally similar), not to demonstrate that such things actually are weapons.
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Splash weapon direct hits don't damage swarms, not because it's "weapon damage" but because it's an effect that targets a single creature.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creaturesThat's also the same paragraph that calls out swarms taking 150% damage from area effects.
A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.I'm not trying to say the B/P/S thing is necessarily determinative because, as others have said, weapon damage isn't actually defined anywhere concretely. But it's probably a pretty good bet that if it doesn't do B/P/S, it isn't weapon damage. That a spell effect is "weapon-like" doesn't mean the damage is weapon damage. The point of that FAQ is to demonstrate that such spells benefit from things that augment weapon damage (because the spell-effects are functionally similar), not to demonstrate that such things actually are weapons.
The distinction between "weapon" and "weapon-like" is not that one does not deal weapon damage, it's that the latter can't be disarmed, sundered, etc because they're not actually physical weapons.
The ONLY official word on whether weapon-like spells deal weapon damage is that one FAQ, which says their damage is boosted by anything that boosts weapon damage. If that's true, the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that they deal weapon damage.
TL;DR: Weapon damage can be non-physical. If it's treated as a weapon, it deals weapon damage.
Fret, why do you call splash weapons as "effects"? It's true that they target when you use a ranged weapon by the rules, but why an effect?
I understand what the intended point of that faq is, but it unfortunately says that the inspire courage works, and it increases "weapon damage".
The distinction between "weapon" and "weapon-like" is not that one does not deal weapon damage, it's that the latter can't be disarmed, sundered, etc because they're not actually physical weapons.
The ONLY official word on whether weapon-like spells deal weapon damage is that one FAQ, which says their damage is boosted by anything that boosts weapon damage. If that's true, the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that they deal weapon damage.
TL;DR: Weapon damage can be non-physical. If it's treated as a weapon, it deals weapon damage.
Flame Blade is not a weapon. Flame Blade's effect is not a weapon. Flame Blade does fire damage.
However, Flame Blade is a spell which creates a weapon-like effect, meaning it benefits from many abilities that benefit weapons. That's straight out of the FAQ.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
That doesn't say these effects are weapons and therefore do "weapon damage". It says that these effects are similar to weapons, therefore things that benefit weapon damage also benefit these spells.
Bastard Swords are "treated as" two-handed martial weapons if you don't have the EWP feat. That does not change the fact that they are one-handed exotic weapons. Being "treated" like something for a specific purpose does not mean you are that thing for all purposes.
Fret, why do you call splash weapons as "effects"? It's true that they target when you use a ranged weapon by the rules, but why an effect?
I understand what the intended point of that faq is, but it unfortunately says that the inspire courage works, and it increases "weapon damage".
Alchemist's Fire does fire damage. Explicitly. Acid Flasks explicitly do acid damage. That's nothing like "weapon damage".
Scorching Rays do fire damage. It's energy damage.
Flame Blade does fire damage.
That these things can benefit from an ability that augments weapon damage does not mean that they do weapon damage. It means that, because they create effects that are similar to weapons, or are weapon-like, the ability applies to them.
The FAQ question responded to is whether Ray spells (and similar things) "count as weapons" for limited purposes. Counting as a weapon for X reason is not the same as being a weapon.
Similarly, counting as weapon damage for the purpose of Inspire Courage does not necessarily mean it is actually weapon damage.
EDIT: Ultimately though, I'm not really sure if it's a big deal. If the question was about splash weapon direct hits and splash damage, the splash is unquestionably not weapon damage; it's an area effect that causes energy damage. Is there really a concern about whether a splash weapon is actually doing weapon damage or whether it's just a weapon or weapon-like attack dealing energy damage? Bombs are considered attacks. Certainly by extension other splash weapons should be, too. But they do energy damage. Still, their direct hits are weapon-like so they benefit from things that benefit weapon damage (Relevant FAQ). Do we need to be more precise than that?
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Fine, do it your un-fun way.
There is no RAW on what counts as weapon damage, but I've chosen to take "treated as weapons" to mean that their damage is weapon damage. Why? Because that's the most sensible thing to do given basic english, and seems to fit best with the spirit of the FAQ IMO. But whatever, it's your game, do what you want. Nothing has written in the sky in big bold letters that "As weapon means it's weapon damage" in complete, unambiguous terms, and obviously nothing short of that will convince you, so I think we're done here.
As for those who are willing to use the best guess we've got so far, go ahead and use the 1-7 list I've put up above. It'll make your life easier.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm just advocating the simplest consistent interpretation. I'm not saying it's the only possible one that is still within RAW and what we know of RAI.
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I think in many cases, "weapon damage" is the damage done by the core damage type of the weapon.
If I have a flaming sword, the slashing is the weapon damage and the fire is a rider effect.
If I use my Grenadier alchemist to glue (with Alchemical Weapon) an acid flask and (with Explosive Missile) a bomb to an arrow and shoot it at someone, the arrow's damage is the weapon damage.
If I have some obscure trait that adds 1 force damage to all my damaging spells, and I shoot a ray of frost, then the cold damage is the weapon damage.
So if I then have an ability like say,a Slayer's Studied Target, that says "+1 to weapon damage rolls", it will do (respectively) piercing, slashing and cold damage in those three examples.
And if you're Sickened and have "-2 to weapon damage rolls", that's -2 slashing, piercing and cold damage.
I guess the real question is: "Why do you need to answer this question?".
If it's for PFS, I think you'll find most judges rule the core damage die of a weapon as 'weapon damage dice' and everything else as not that. Alchemist fire and bombs should deal damage vs. swarms as normal.
If it's for a home game that someone else is running, entreat to their common sense, where "weapon damage" dice are the core damage a weapon deals, without any modifications.
If you're running the game...lighten up. Explain to your players the way you think it should be done and advise them to accept your ruling.
If you really need to a hard RAW ruling...
From http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
"Dmg: These columns give the damage dealt by the weapon on a successful hit. The column labeled “Dmg (S)” is for Small weapons. The column labeled “Dmg (M)” is for Medium weapons. If two damage ranges are given, then the weapon is a double weapon. Use the second damage figure given for the double weapon's extra attack. Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage gives weapon damage values for Tiny and Large weapons."
So...there you have it. Weapon damage.
Things like sickened are relevant when to figure out when they should be applied.
Arturus, I feel like you're taking away from this thread. This is a rules discussion forum, not an advice or homebrew one. I.Would like help determining by the rules what is correct, and I'm.aware of what I'm.allowed to do in a home game. I play pfs, and this is extremely relevant to many things, especially swarms. I do not care for what gm's normally run, but I want to figure out what the correct answer is to get people on the right page with the rules.
Perhaps people have arguments that haven't been heard, and I encourage you to post them. I find it interesting that flaming on a sword might work, but alchemist fire might not, unless it's the splash damage. Again, I haven't, nor has anyone else denied the splash weapon does the damage it deals as advertised, but with that faq, what's the correct way to interpret it for these other things?
Lastly, how do people consider alchemist fire an effect, giving the effects don't affect swarms if they target?
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This question would be a lot easier to answer if you'd just explain why you're asking. If it's because of the "trying to hit a swarm with alchemist's fire" thing then you've already got the answer: it's not because the 1d6 fire damage is weapon damage, it's because it is a "spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures".
The splash, though, does work. Because it doesn't target a specific number of creatures.
So if I tell you my hidden motive you can with an absolute certainty explain to everyone how to correctly define what weapon damage is... interesting.
Could you please explain why alchemist fire is a spell or effect? Could you explain how you know the alchemist fire isn't doing weapon damage?
I would like to believe that weapon damage is subjected to size increase such as you find on the table, and battle poi I figure would increase with the weapons. It has a critical hit listing, and says it doesn't do physical damage.
Is there a way to prove at least the faq doesn't necessarily imply that anything affected by inspire courages weapon damage increase makes it weapon damage?
Why would being sickened make Alchemist's Fire do less damage? Why would it impact Flame Blade? Just seems strange to me. And since there's really no RAW answer here, I'm not going to rule in a way I think leads to a silly result. But if there's something I'm not considering, I'll happily reevaluate. Haven't honestly given this one much more thought than that.
I think it's ridiculous to think of sickened condition would affect Scorching Ray, and alchemist fire, but is it valid by the rules? Inspire courage would increase the damage of Scorching ray, so why not have sickened penalize it?
Yes, thank you for finding rules in the enlarge spells that cite weapon damage.
I would really like to get to the bottom of it, but it seems people consider that if the damage dice doesn't increase with size, then it's not "damage dice". Fret, and Byakko, you agree with that?