Mythic Martial versus Wizard

[Avh]

andreww wrote:

The deadline has now closed. I have received two wizards and no martials. I declare Wizard victory by default. Feel free to continue the mad argument amongst yourselves, I am done with it.

Are you serious ? No fighter ?

What a shame.

[Cuuniyevo]

Eh? I thought there were 3 people in line for the martial slot in the fight. Where'd they go? o_0

[Avh]

Cuuniyevo wrote:

Eh? I thought there were 3 people in line for the martial slot in the fight. Where'd they go? o_0

Schrodinger's fighter !

[Rhedyn]

andreww wrote:

The deadline has now closed. I have received two wizards and no martials. I declare Wizard victory by default. Feel free to continue the mad argument amongst yourselves, I am done with it.

Bwahahahaha!

No really?
Things legal:
Sacred Geometry
Snow-cone wish machines
Non-PRD content
Blood money

Things illegal:
Fighter Archmage
Leadership

Yeah this contest didn't seem biased at all...

[Avh]

Rhedyn wrote:

andreww wrote:

The deadline has now closed. I have received two wizards and no martials. I declare Wizard victory by default. Feel free to continue the mad argument amongst yourselves, I am done with it.

Bwahahahaha!

No really?
Things legal:
Sacred Geometry
Snow-cone wish machines
Non-PRD content
Blood money

Except that none of those are required to be effective as a wizard... ^^

Quote:

Things illegal:

Fighter Archmage
Leadership

Leadership is illegal because if you take a level 17 wizard as a cohort, then you're more likely comparing a lvl 17 wizard to a level 20 wizard, not a level 20/tier 10 mythic fighter to a level 20 wizard.

Fighter Archmage is not banned (actually, most of those who argued in the other topic wanted to take Archmage or similar). It's just proving that in order to be as effective as a wizard, you need wizard spells.

-----------------------------------------------

The fact that there was no fighter at all is significant, and somewhat proves that no one could build a 20th fighter with 10 mythic ranks that could be protected against the few examples of what a 20th level wizard could do.

No less, no more.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

No one could, or perhaps, no one had time/motivation for.

[Rhedyn]

Avh wrote:

Except that none of those are required to be effective as a wizard... ^^

So?

The option was there.

Cast snow-cone once. Wish for 3 more snow-cones which wish grants as a standard action for each snow-cone. Rinse repeat until you have a nigh infinite snow-cone army well within the one week time limit.

Round one:
Address all snow-cones, "I wish the fighter was dead".
Unlimited wishes tear the universe asunder and kill the fighter.

EDIT: Fighter archmage was brought up because it is just as RAW legal and just as BS as snow-cone wish factories.

[137ben]

It's ironic, because in the previous thread, there were several people insisting that mythic fighters would win by default because no one had presented a wizard build.
Turns out those people were hypocrites, because they didn't have fighter builds either.

With Andreww gone, I might be willing to run a similar match between a mythic martial and a wizard. However, I'm not very familiar with most of the Paizo splats (mythic adventures and ultimate campaign are the only two I know inside-and-out). So, it might have to be core+mythic adventures only (with the wizard being core only and the martial being core+mythic only). That could still be an interesting comparison, but I'm guessing its not what most people here want to see. So, if you want an all-nonmythic-books-wizard vs all-books-martial comparison, someone other than me should run it.

[Rhedyn]

137ben wrote:

It's ironic, because in the previous thread, there were several people insisting that mythic fighters would win by default because no one had presented a wizard build.

Turns out those people were hypocrites, because they didn't have fighter builds either.

Actually if you read that thread many many fighter builds were posted in full detail.

No one was willing to run those fighters in this contest or make new fighters for this contest.

[N. Jolly]

And now this thread will be where I point when people talk about 'where's the wizard build?'

It's here...alone...with supreme power.

[andreww]

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

Except that none of those are required to be effective as a wizard... ^^

So?

The option was there.

Cast snow-cone once. Wish for 3 more snow-cones which wish grants as a standard action for each snow-cone. Rinse repeat until you have a nigh infinite snow-cone army well within the one week time limit.

Round one:
Address all snow-cones, "I wish the fighter was dead".
Unlimited wishes tear the universe asunder and kill the fighter.

EDIT: Fighter archmage was brought up because it is just as RAW legal and just as BS as snow-cone wish factories.

Actually the view I provided to Anzyr was that Simulacrums cannot create other Simulacrums as that fell foul of the "gaining more power" text.

[Rhedyn]

N. Jolly wrote:

And now this thread will be where I point when people talk about 'where's the wizard build?'

It's here...alone...with supreme power.

Oh but there are not actual wizard builds here.

Only andrew saw them.

[Rhedyn]

andreww wrote:

Actually the view I provided to Anzyr was that Simulacrums cannot create other Simulacrums as that fell foul of the "gaining more power" text.

I do not see how that applies. The snow-cone gains no power. The wish for snow-cones are for the wishers. Genies have to grant wishes. They can't use the SLA to make the snow-cone for themselves.

Anyways, you still end up with 7 genies or more. (maybe just go to a timeless demiplane during your week). That is at-least 21 wishes over 3 rounds that the wizard can ask for as a free action.

[Avh]

Rhedyn wrote:

137ben wrote:

It's ironic, because in the previous thread, there were several people insisting that mythic fighters would win by default because no one had presented a wizard build.

Turns out those people were hypocrites, because they didn't have fighter builds either.

Actually if you read that thread many many fighter builds were posted in full detail.

No one was willing to run those fighters in this contest or make new fighters for this contest.

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Moreover, none were sent to Andreww. Not one, not even one with mistakes.

[Rhedyn]

Avh wrote:

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Wow no.

[Avh]

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Wow no.

Quote one that is legal, please.

And even if such build exists, none has been sent to Andreww.

[Rhedyn]

Avh wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Wow no.

Quote one that is legal, please.

And even if such build exists, none has been sent to Andreww.

All of them.

I do not know what sort of BS standard of Legal you are throwing around. This one, I posted on the first page of that thread.

And no, I have no intention of running it in andrew's contest.

[Avh]

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Wow no.

Quote one that is legal, please.

And even if such build exists, none has been sent to Andreww.

All of them.

I do not know what sort of BS standard of Legal you are throwing around. This one, I posted on the first page of that thread.

And no, I have no intention of running it in andrew's contest.

It is illegal, because it has over 3 times the standard wealth for a 20th level character.

I won't even go to the "Leadership", or to the "Not immune to blablablah".

Reduce it to 880 000 gp and then we can start talking.

[Rhedyn]

Avh wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Wow no.

Quote one that is legal, please.

And even if such build exists, none has been sent to Andreww.

All of them.

I do not know what sort of BS standard of Legal you are throwing around. This one, I posted on the first page of that thread.

And no, I have no intention of running it in andrew's contest.

It is illegal, because it has over 3 times the standard wealth for a 20th level character.

I won't even go to the "Leadership", or to the "Not immune to blablablah".

Just plain : reduce it to 880 000 gp and then we can start talking.

Nice house-rules.

[Mathius]

I submitted a wizard that did not use bloodmoney or sims only for wishes. I can just switch that to planar binding. None of them came with me into the arena.

Also no SG.

Main attack is persistent reach trap soul with a DC 39 CL 28.

Wish forbiddence keeps out planar travel.

Wall of suppression CL 21 plus winds of vengeance prevents archery since arrows lose magic in the wall then can not hit me.

Wish, limited wish, shadow evo, greater shadow evo, and scroll all provide invisibility purge witch means you need more then one spellbane to deal with it all. Also lantern of revealing.

Init of 49 before any spells increase that.

Readied wall of suppression shuts down your spells and items.
Familiar casts contingent action on me to use trap the soul on you.
Contingent action trap the soul
Fam contingent action to wand contingent action on me to time stop

With improved share spell may fam gets TS as well. Use extend for duration.

With pearls of power I can get up to 9 Trap the souls and if you not immune to wall of suppression I can get them all off using time stop to set up contingent and readied actions.

If you are then i need to break your spellbane with disjunction. I have about an 80 percent chance of doing that with 4 disjunctions and I lose some time stops. Then I only have 2 shots at you.

Can you make 4 saves DC 39 with no magical support? If so I flee with wish and you never find me so draw. As many as 18 if wall of suppression CL 27 works on you.

Can you attack me at range through wind with no magic or stay invis despite the purges? If so yo win.

Long range disjoins may work but if I can react to it I flee and we end in a draw.

If you do not have undetectable then I will eventually hunt you down and win. If you not immune to polymorph and mind affecting from class features then I can target you with out it costing 20k a pop. I know that a mythic fighter can be but it forces those choices.

[Avh]

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Wow no.

Quote one that is legal, please.

And even if such build exists, none has been sent to Andreww.

All of them.

I do not know what sort of BS standard of Legal you are throwing around. This one, I posted on the first page of that thread.

And no, I have no intention of running it in andrew's contest.

It is illegal, because it has over 3 times the standard wealth for a 20th level character.

I won't even go to the "Leadership", or to the "Not immune to blablablah".

Just plain : reduce it to 880 000 gp and then we can start talking.

Nice house-rules.

It isn't house rules.

Check here.

WBL is not affected by mythic tiers.

So, a 20th level Fighter, mythic or not, should have 20th level WBL.
In the rules, that is 880 000 gp my friend.

[Rhedyn]

Avh wrote:

It isn't house rules.

Oh but it is. It is a perfectly fair rule for a contest. But thinking mythic as epics doesn't affect WBL RAW is nonsense.

[Avh]

Rhedyn wrote:

Avh wrote:

It isn't house rules.

Oh but it is. It is a perfectly fair rule for a contest. But thinking mythic as epics doesn't affect WBL RAW is nonsense.

Quote even one rule that could suggest you should have more WBL than a 20th level character, and I would agree with you.

[CWheezy]

andreww wrote:

Actually the view I provided to Anzyr was that Simulacrums cannot create other Simulacrums as that fell foul of the "gaining more power" text.

That is total nonsense, you know that right.

If that is true, then simulacrums can't flank, can't wear items, etc. It isn't true because the simulacrum isn't the new master

[Anzyr]

Wait... wait...

NOOOOOO!!!!

I just submitted my Harbringer Daemon Body stats. And my 1 week prep (which took like 2 hours and even then it's not as detailed as I'd like).

...

...

Fine just gonna post it here:

And yes... that is a 78 Initiative. Not a +78. Just 78.

Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle

N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)

Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))

Senses: Low-Light Vision, Darkvision 60 ft., scent, true seeing
Aura - Unholy Aura, Protective Aura
DR 10/evil

Defense:

AC: 63 (10 + 6 Armor + 13 Dex + 7 Shield* (MV) +5 Deflection* (SoF), +2 Luck* (US) +20 Natural +1 Insight -1 Size)
HP: 540 (24d10+408)
Fortitude: +37(39) (6 +17 Stat +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Reflex: 33(35) (6 +13 Stat, +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Will: 42(44) (12 +9 Stat, +4(6) Resistance + 6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence +2 DM +4 Insight)
Immune: Magic Sleep, Fear, ability damage, acid, blindness, critcal hits, charm and compulsion effects, deafness, death effects, disease, drowning, electricity, fire, acid, cold, petrification, poison, stunning, all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration; Resist cold 30, electricity 30; SR 32
+2 v. enchantment spells and effects

Str: 44 (33 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent)
Dex: 36 (21 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +4 Profane)
Con: 45 (32 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +2 Profane)
Int: 43 (18 +2 Race +3 Age +5 Level +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +4 Profane)
Wis: 30 (14 +3 Age +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +2 Profane)
Cha: 21 (7 +3 Age +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent)

BAB: +10; CMB: 27; CMD: 40

Active Spells, Greater Angelic Aspect, Magic Vestments x2 (Solars), Shield of Faith (Solar),
Unwilling Shield (linked to 1 Solar), True Seeing, Extended Aroden's Spellbane
(2 days ago, 56 hour duration), Extended Aroden's Spellbane (1 day ago, 56 Hour duration)
Spellbane spells: Antimagic Field, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction, Greater Dispel Magic, Mage's Magnificent Enclosure.
Extended Magic Jar (Cast 2 days ago 56 hour duration), Extended Magic Jar (cast 1 day ago 56 hour duration)
Extended Ice Body, Greater Heroism, Moment of Greatness (Efreet), Heightened Awareness, Anticipate Peril,
Extended Fickle Winds, Invisibility Purge (Solar), Death Knell (Duplicated with Limited Wish) on a failed spawn.

Speed: 30 ft. 60 Ft. Fly (Perfect)

Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored

Feats: Scribe Scroll (W1), Improved Initiative (1), Spell Focus (Evocation) (3), Fast Study (W5),
Craft Wondrous Item (5), Sacred Geometry (Quicken, Dazing) (7), Extend Spell (9), Quicken Spell (W10),
Spell Penetration (11), Greater Spell Penetration (13), Sacred Geometry (Persistent, Empower) (15),
Opposition Research (Evocation) (W15), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) (17), Maximize Spell (19), Immortality (W20)

Skills: 20 Ranks in:
Acrobatics +40 / Bluff +32 / Disguise +32 / Diplomacy +32 / Escape Artist +40 Fly +40
Knowledge (Arcana), (Dungeoneering), (Engineering), (Local), (Nature), (Planes), (Religion) +43
(20 +16 Int +3 CS +3 Morale +3 Luck +1 COmpetence) / Perception +44
Sense Motive + 37 / Stealth +33 / Spellcraft +43 / Use Magic Device +32

Languages: Common, Elven, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Draconic, Undercommon

Special Qualities: Dual-Minded
Permanent Spells: Arcane Sight, Tongues, Darkvision, See Invisibiliy, Read Magic, Telepathic Bond (Tzitzimitlx5)
Telepathic Bond (Solar)

Weapons: +1 Courageous, Dueling Living Steel Large Spiked Gauntlet (22,010 GP)
Staff of the Master (Necromancy) x2

Armor: +1 Deathless, Ghost Touch, Heavy Fortification Living Steel Haramaki (100,506 GP)
Clawhand Shield

Items: Headband of Mental Superiority +6, Belt Of Physical Perfection +6, Otherworldly Kimono, Handy Haversack,
Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Flawed Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone,
Wayfinder (Clear Spindle Ioun Stone), Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone,
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Greater Ring of Inner Fortititude, Ring of Freedom of Movement,
Lens of Figment Piercing, Quick Runner's Shirt, Necklace of Adaption, Goz Mask, Eversmoking Bottle,
Minor Cloak of Displacement, Glove of Storing, Bead of Karma x2, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend x3, Blessed Book x2
Rod of Absorption (0/50 stored levels), Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess, Spellguard Bracers, Featherstep Slippers,
Spirit Jars, Amulet of Natural Armor, Stone of Alliance, Lantern of Revealing, Eyes of the Eagle, Bag of Holding I,
Concealing Pocket, Pearl of Power 9th x2

Greensting Scorpion Familiar. In Concealing Pocket.

Spell Component Pouch x 30
10,000 Sheets of Paper
100 Vials of Ink
100 Vials of Glowing Ink
100 GP worth of Sacks (for Rune storage)

Gold: 3,371

Spells Known (Level Up): Starting Spell Book (Up to 6th level) (Also in both Blessed Books)

1st: Anticipate Peril, Snow Ball, Ear-Piercing Scream, Blood Money, Blood Rage, Alarm, Heighten Awareness,
Infernal Healing, Ant Haul, Shield
2nd: Rope Trick, Create Pit, Summoner Monster II, Mirror Image
3rd: Haste, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Paragon Surge
4th: Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Animate Dead, Eyes of the Void
5th: Teleport, Summon Monster V, Magic Jar, Permanency
6th: Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Greater Teleport, Summon Monster VII, Simulacrum, Limited Wish
8th: Greater Planar Binding, Summoner Monster VIII, Maze, Clone
9th: Greater Create Demiplane, Wish, Time Stop, Gate, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction

Spellbooks:
Book of Harms (900 GP): (Also in both Blessed Books)

3rd—fireball, lightning bolt

2nd—acid arrow, darkness, ghoul touch, gust of wind

1st—burning hands, color spray, corrosive touch, hydraulic push, hypnotism, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement,
shocking grasp

Tome of the Transmuter (2,635) (Also in both Blessed Books)

4th—beast shape II, calcific touch, confusion, dimension door, stone shape

3rd—arcane sight, dispel magic, explosive runes, lightning bolt, greater magic weapon, slow

2nd—alter self, flaming sphere, knock, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, whispering wind

1st—animate rope, charm person, color spray, erase, floating disk, mage armor, magic missile, protection from chaos,
unseen servant

0—standard plus drench, spark

Blessed Book(s): All Above, in addition to:

1st (100 GP): Air Bubble, Identify, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Mount, Summoner Monster I, Comprehend Langauges,
Detect Secret Doors, See Alignment, True Strike, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image,
Vanish, Crafter's Fortune, Expeditious Retreat, Gravity bow, Liberating Command, Feather Fall, Reduce Person

2nd (500 GP): Arcane Lock, Protection from Arrows, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object,
Continual Flame, Contingent Action, Shatter, Blur, Invisibility, Command Undead, False Life, Spectral Hand,
Limp Lash, Make Wole, Masterwork Transformation, Sculpt Simulacrum, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom,
Bear's Endurance, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Aram Zey's Focus

3rd (1035 GP): Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Aqueous Orb,
Mad Monkeys, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud, Seek Thoughts, Heroism, Wind Wall, Displacement, Deathwine,
Marionette Possession, Vampiric Touch, Beast Shape I, Blink, Fly, Monstrous Physique I, Shrink Item,
Undead Anatomy

4th (1040 GP): Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Scrying, Locate Creature, Charm Monster, Terrible Remorse,
Contingent Scroll, Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Symbol of Slowing, Emergency Force Sphere, Ball Lightning

5th (2125 GP): Mage's Private Sanctum, Siphon Magic, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Contact Other Plane,
Telepathic Bond, Geyser, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Pain, Waves of Fatigue, Angelic Aspect, Fabricate, Fickle Winds,
Overland Flight, Planar Adaption, Absorb Toxicity, Echolocation

6th (1620 GP): Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Symbol of Fear, Flesh to Stone
Battlemind Link, Unwilling Shield, Sonic Form

7th (3610 GP): Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision, Symbol of Stunning,
Waves of Ecstasy, Hungry Darkness, Project Image, Symbol of Weakness, Waves of Exhaustion, Ethereal Jaunt,
Ice Body, Circle of Clarity

8th (2880 GP): Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Trap the Soul, Discern Location, Moment of Prescience,
Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Death, Greater Angelic Aspect, Polymorph Any Object

9th (4860 GP): Symbol of Vulnerability, Summoner Monster IX, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Winds of Vengeance,
Astral Projection, Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Mass Suffocation, Etherealness, Shapechange, Dominate Monster

Components & Focuses x2 (10420):
1,000 GP Diamond - Protection from Spells
1,000 GP Cold Iron SCepter - Aroden' Spellbane
500 GP Forked Metal Rod - Greater Create Demiplane
100 GP Crytal Lens - Circle of Clarity
1,500 GP Ivory Statuette of Self - Contingency
1000 GP Silver Mirror - Scrying
100 GP Platinum Quill - Contingent Scroll
10 GP Minature Shovel - Create Pit

Rhedyn wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

And now this thread will be where I point when people talk about 'where's the wizard build?'

It's here...alone...with supreme power.

Oh but there are not actual wizard builds here.

Only andrew saw them.

Behold.

[JRutterbush]

Mathius wrote:

I flee and we end in a draw.

Just to be clear, this is not a draw. If you are forced to flee the arena, that's a victory by forfeit. In a real-world situation, you could try to come back later and finish the fight... but in a real-world situation, there are far more options for the Fighter to get at you as well.

This, however, is not a real-world situation. This is a single fight in a specific arena. If you flee, that's a loss for you.

[Rhedyn]

Anzyr wrote:

Behold.

*claps*

[Bandw2]

JRutterbush wrote:

Mathius wrote:

I flee and we end in a draw.

Just to be clear, this is not a draw. If you are forced to flee the arena, that's a victory by forfeit. In a real-world situation, you could try to come back later and finish the fight... but in a real-world situation, there are far more options for the Fighter to get at you as well.

This, however, is not a real-world situation. This is a single fight in a specific arena. If you flee, that's a loss for you.

don't you NEED to kill your target under the current rules?

[JRutterbush]

Bandw2 wrote:

JRutterbush wrote:

Mathius wrote:

I flee and we end in a draw.

Just to be clear, this is not a draw. If you are forced to flee the arena, that's a victory by forfeit. In a real-world situation, you could try to come back later and finish the fight... but in a real-world situation, there are far more options for the Fighter to get at you as well.

This, however, is not a real-world situation. This is a single fight in a specific arena. If you flee, that's a loss for you.

don't you NEED to kill your target under the current rules?

You also need to stay in the arena. Fleeing the arena, then, would be considered a forfeit.

[137ben]

JRutterbush wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

JRutterbush wrote:

Mathius wrote:

I flee and we end in a draw.

Just to be clear, this is not a draw. If you are forced to flee the arena, that's a victory by forfeit. In a real-world situation, you could try to come back later and finish the fight... but in a real-world situation, there are far more options for the Fighter to get at you as well.

This, however, is not a real-world situation. This is a single fight in a specific arena. If you flee, that's a loss for you.

don't you NEED to kill your target under the current rules?

You also need to stay in the arena. Fleeing the arena, then, would be considered a forfeit.

Well, except in this case, the fighter fled/forfeited first (by, ya know, not even showing up in the first place).

[JRutterbush]

137ben wrote:

Well, except in this case, the fighter fled/forfeited first (by, ya know, not even showing up in the first place).

Not entering a contest is not the same as entering a contest and then forfeiting. There are many reasons not to enter a contest, but only one reason to flee when you've already entered it.

[Buri Reborn]

Avh wrote:

It isn't house rules.

Check here.

WBL is not affected by mythic tiers.

So, a 20th level Fighter, mythic or not, should have 20th level WBL.
In the rules, that is 880 000 gp my friend.

It is affected by point-buy.

Wealth By Level wrote:

Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value.

Take "might" as you will, but there's the case for it. Now, take any source of crafting and you can easily appear to have 3x normal WBL.

[CWheezy]

Buri Reborn wrote:

Avh wrote:

It isn't house rules.

Check here.

WBL is not affected by mythic tiers.

So, a 20th level Fighter, mythic or not, should have 20th level WBL.
In the rules, that is 880 000 gp my friend.

It is affected by point-buy.

Wealth By Level wrote:

Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value.

Take "might" as you will, but there's the case for it. Now, take any source of crafting and you can easily appear to have 3x normal WBL.

That is pretty damn weasel wordy imo

[Buri Reborn]

Think about it, though. People like to play higher point-buy games. Paizo's commentary on that is that it's such a high powered difference that you may be running literally double the wealth. It says something about the style of play. Yet, GMs utterly cringe (on these boards, anyway) at giving any PC over standard WBL but usually it comes out as condemning crafting cheese. It's a form of double-think, imo, and a failure to grasp the balance implications. 15 point-buy is the standard tone for play. You might think the couple point of ability scores doesn't matter yet the pacing of games at 15 and those higher are noticeably different. To try to say no to the double WBL thing feels like you want the damn to break in terms of power but to not get wet. I really don't understand the contention over gold. Yes, it *can* break games, but if you're playing with people so desperate to feel powerful that you'll only give them half measures to try to restrain their outlet then I wonder why you'd give it to them at all. Also, realize the further implications of that additional +1 (20 pb) and +2 (25 pb) that those kinds of players will produce. That's an automatic +5/+10% increase in whatever your class does without touching anything other than ability scores. In balance terms, that's a couple feats for free. But, gods forbid giving them some extra gps.

[Avh]

Buri Reborn wrote:

Avh wrote:

It isn't house rules.

Check here.

WBL is not affected by mythic tiers.

So, a 20th level Fighter, mythic or not, should have 20th level WBL.
In the rules, that is 880 000 gp my friend.

It is affected by point-buy.

Wealth By Level wrote:

Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value.

Take "might" as you will, but there's the case for it. Now, take any source of crafting and you can easily appear to have 3x normal WBL.

Yes, Point buy "Might" affect it.

Neither should nor will, only might; but at least it's written somewhere in the rules. You should know that will increase both the Fighter and the wizard WBL, as they are both created with the same Point buy though.

I also know that Magic item creation feats should increase WBL (+25% for one, +50% if you have 2 or more).

But I didn't find anywhere in the rules the possible modification of WBL from Mythic rules.
And actually, nothing in the mythic encounters show any improvements of treasure that could lead to better WBL than expected for someone of your level.

[Mathius]

I did not mean to flee the arena. I have infinite up work with. I will just teleport 3.14159 light hours up and assume that mind blank keeps you from getting next to me.

I could not find the fighter either. Once per day for as long as I could keep up the invisibility purges I would be in the open on the ground daring the fighter to come to me. If he does not I can not find him.

If the arena were finite I could eventual isolate him by blocking planar travel with forbiddance (except wish) and the slow fill every space with iron. If you break it with melee I can target disjoin and wall of suppression. If you do not their will evenutally be a very small area left that I will fill invisibility purge from many sources.

If you can stay invisible while in 6 IPs (5 spells and 1 item) then you can get next to me and I will die. Once the arena is small you might be able to disjunction spam enough to find me and then is will come down to contingencies of witch my familiar lets me have second.

[bookrat]

Higher wealth may not be illegal; it can be perfectly valid. However, for a comparison between two classes, the same wealth is required and it can't be too high or too low.

It if is too low, then you're taking away an integral part of pathfinder - magical item accumulation for higher levels. Then it's not truly a fair fight as the caster will clearly win. Magic items are supposed to help reign in the power difference.

If we go too high, then we're no longer comparing classes but rather mobile magical item caches.

Conversely, if the (mythic) fighter is allowed to have a considerably higher WBL, then all we are really claiming is that it requires a fighter to be both mythic AND have considerably more magical items just to be on par with a normal wizard. Is this really what we want to say about the fighter?

[Bandw2]

Mathius wrote:

I will just teleport 3.14159 light hours up and assume that mind blank keeps you from getting next to me.

why pi light hours?

[bookrat]

Bandw2 wrote:

Mathius wrote:

I will just teleport 3.14159 light hours up and assume that mind blank keeps you from getting next to me.

why pi light hours?

Don't bother. He'll just go into circular reasoning.

[Kaouse]

^I see what you did there.

[Mathius]

Just because it is far away and I like pie.

I do admit that mine could lose.