Yes and yes. Grease requires careful placement if you want more use out of it than a single chance to make enemies fall prone. Of course, if you make an enemy have to move through a greased square to get to your party, you usually also have to worry about your allies having to get through the grease to get to the enemy. I like to use it to disrupt an enemy in the middle of a charge or to slow down enemies that are trying to flank my party.
I think the effect of grease may supercede the ordinary movement rules. If you attempt to move in grease you must do so at half speed and make a DC 10 acrobatics. Even if you are moving into a square without grease.
At least, I think thats how it works.
I think the effect of grease may supercede the ordinary movement rules. If you attempt to move in grease you must do so at half speed and make a DC 10 acrobatics. Even if you are moving into a square without grease.
At least, I think thats how it works.
I currently lean that way as well.
It doesn't just matter what the normal movement rules say because you're also reading the specialized spell rules, specific (spell wording) overrides general (mundane diff. terrain movement rules).
Per the spell...
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.
So the question is, do you count as walking "within or through" the square you start in to get to the next square. That's pretty all encompassing phrasing. Particularly the inclusion of "within". If it was just one or the other, within or through, I think a case could be made for the normal movement rules but when you include both it seems to preclude anything but either "movement takes your chances" or "stay in square to not take penalties".
This is why I just grease the boots of whoever you want to trip up.
The advantage of targeting the area not a (worn) object is avoiding allowing the opponent a reflex save per the spell text.
It's one of the reasons Grease is viewed as such a staple first level spell. It maintains some use even at higher levels since the area form has no save and allows no spell resist, only an Acrobatics check (and even that for only a partial effect)
This is why I just grease the boots of whoever you want to trip up.The advantage of targeting the area not a (worn) object is avoiding allowing the opponent a reflex save per the spell text.
Plus the fact that greased clothing doesn't make someone fall over, it just gives them a bonus to escape and avoid being grappled.
Well, seems the rules make it so you can 5ft out of the grease area.
Not necessarily. That is still being discussed. Reread my post that began with a quote from Claxon's posted before me [edit: 5th above this one] to catch yourself up. The movement rules would allow it but the spell rules don't seem to and they are (often) more specific. In this case there is a noticeable chance the initial square does count.
Right, that is my RAW interpretation. Moving out of the grease area can be done in a 5ft step.
RAI, I would agree with you, moving out of takes a move, the acrobatics, etc. but it is not supported in the RAW.
I quoted the spell text above, copied directly from the Paizo PRD. How exactly is that not RAW?
This is what the spell text says about it.
"A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check."
You can't just look to the movement rules. It is not just difficult terrain from the movement rules it is also a specific spell effect, you have to incorporate it's rules text as well. "within or through" covers literally anything but "stay there". That would mean a five foot step still triggers Grease's rules if not the general movement ones.
The RAW is the text of the spell. 'within or through the area of grease'
If you move while you are within a grease spell and want to move, or you move through a grease spell, you have to make a check. Only if you don't move can you avoid this check if you are already in the area of the spell. If you fail the check, you can't move and half to make a reflex save.
It has absolutely nothing to do with difficult terrain or additional movement cost from difficult terrain.
The text is fairly clear.
The RAW is the text of the spell. 'within or through the area of grease'
If you move while you are within a grease spell and want to move, or you move through a grease spell, you have to make a check. Only if you don't move can you avoid this check if you are already in the area of the spell. If you fail the check, you can't move and half to make a reflex save.
It has absolutely nothing to do with difficult terrain or additional movement cost from difficult terrain.
The text is fairly clear.
That's how I feel about it.
In Pathfinder, specific beats general. The movement rules in this case are the general rules. But the specifics of grease say if you're moving while in grease you have to do X and these conditions apply. In particular it means you move at half speed if and only if you can make a DC 10 acrobatics, and that you have to deal with the area as difficult terrain. Which would mean you can't just 5ft step out, it would require a move action.
Keep in mind you can't use any other movement in the same turn you 5 foot step.
"Within" means to move from a greased square to a greased square
"Through" means to move from a non-greased square to a greased squareTo 5-foot step out of a greased square onto a clean square still fits; there's no reason to say the movement rules are now irrelevant considering the above apply.
Which would be the other way to view it. No one is questioning "through", however '"Within" means to move from a greased square to a greased square' is a point of contention. If stepping out of it how did you not move within it (short of teleportation/flight effects) per the spells specific rules?
The spell also states
"Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
So if you were in a greased square the spell tells you what makes you not take the check or be flat footed and that's not moving. If you were in the square and moved, even if the movement rules for difficult terrain aren't in play, how have you managed to fall into the spell specific exempted category when you have in fact moved within the area of the spells effect?
If the spell only created difficult terrain, for example as "Stone Call" does, I would agree with looking to just the normal rules. However this spell creates a specific ground hazard with it's own unique rules listed in the spell. I think those create a specific situation that's in addition to regular difficult terrain rules.
"Within" means to move from a greased square to a greased square
"Through" means to move from a non-greased square to a greased squareTo 5-foot step out of a greased square onto a clean square still fits; there's no reason to say the movement rules are now irrelevant considering the above apply.
I severely disagree with your definition of within.
Think about it like this. Grease creates a 10ft by 10ft greasy area. You're sit in a 5ft by 5ft square. But you don't take up the whole square. While you may be moving into a square without grease, you still have to move through parts of the square you're already in. Now, it doesn't factor in mechanically. We know how to measure how far you move. It is essentially 30ft (normally) from one square center to another.
Otherwise you're definition of grease nearly negates half the spell. Whats the point of saying you have to make an acrobatics check and that it is difficult terrain if you can completely avoid it (even when cast on the ground you're standing, by taking a simple 5ft step out? Under this interpretation the best it does it force you to take a different route.
Hardly seems like the intention.
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Here's the relevant wording of the spell, since nobody's quoted it yet:
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
This bolded bit is the first part that still affects the grease walker, regardless.
If you cast it tactfully, you can force the enemy to either 5ft step out and take another route it might not like, or force them to walk within it.
Or another enemy behind the grease might be forced to walk through it.
So it makes perfect sense considering all these options for a level 1 spell that the movement rules that allow you/them to 5-foot step out of the grease still apply.
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If stepping out of it how did you not move within it (short of teleportation/flight effects) per the spells specific rules?
"The spell's specific rules" that you're talking about is a rule as interpreted, but ignores the movement rules. It's always the destination square that counts for the type of movement you make. Even if you don't consider greased squares difficult terrain (which is ludicrous), that's still how movement works.
If the spell only created difficult terrain, ...I think those create a specific situation that's in addition to regular difficult terrain rules.
Grease creates more than just difficult terrain, but it's specific about what it does. The only part in dispute is "within or through".
The spell also states
"Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.So if you were in a greased square the spell tells you what makes you not take the check or be flat footed and that's not moving. If you were in the square and moved, even if the movement rules for difficult terrain aren't in play, how have you managed to fall into the spell specific exempted category when you have in fact moved within the area of the spells effect?
The rules never describe every corner case or exception, unless it's specific about it (like how Dimension Door says "A creature that passes through the portal [i]can't take any other actions until its next turn."[/i] - that's all encompassing).
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"Within" means to move from a greased square to a greased square
"Through" means to move from a non-greased square to a greased squareTo 5-foot step out of a greased square onto a clean square still fits; there's no reason to say the movement rules are now irrelevant considering the above apply.
I severely disagree with your definition of within.
Think about it like this. Grease creates a 10ft by 10ft greasy area. You're sit in a 5ft by 5ft square. But you don't take up the whole square. While you may be moving into a square without grease, you still have to move through parts of the square you're already in. Now, it doesn't factor in mechanically. We know how to measure how far you move. It is essentially 30ft (normally) from one square center to another.
Otherwise you're definition of grease nearly negates half the spell. Whats the point of saying you have to make an acrobatics check and that it is difficult terrain if you can completely avoid it (even when cast on the ground you're standing, by taking a simple 5ft step out? Under this interpretation the best it does it force you to take a different route.
Hardly seems like the intention.
Insofar as you don't take up the whole square, I agree with you,. but what is to prevent you from defining the part you take up as being at the edge of the greased area, rather than near the middle?
No, Avatar-1's definition of "within" does not require weird readings of both the spell and the rules, and does not make yet another 1st level spell outpower higher level spells.
Now, a grease, in conjunction with a create pit, can be ugly....
I feel if you feet are leaving and meeting greased ground at any point, you need to make the acrobatics check.
"The spell's specific rules" that you're talking about is a rule as interpreted, but ignores the movement rules. It's always the destination square that counts for the type of movement you make. Even if you don't consider greased squares difficult terrain (which is ludicrous), that's still how movement works.
Please enlighten me, which movement rules are we talking about that say you ignore the conditions of the square you are in?
The closest I could find with a cursory search was:
Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.
If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.
Which to me sounds a lot more like you do take it into account that ignore it.
A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease. Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.
Per the spell, if you move you must make a check. Doesn't matter if it is a 5'-step or not, it is movement that triggers a check. So you're still subject to the Grease until you are out of the area of effect.
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Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.
If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.
Which to me sounds a lot more like you do take it into account that ignore it.
That bolded rule refers to a single square that has two types of terrain in it, like half difficult terrain but half regular terrain; the difficult terrain takes precedence.
Think of how you move along diagonals - 5ft for the first square, 10ft for the second square. When you move from square A to square B, square B is your first diagonal movement, so you spend 5ft of movement. When you move from square B to square C, square C is your second diagonal, so you spend 10ft of movement.
There's other lines in the Environment chapter that reference it:
Dense Rubble: The ground is covered with rocks of all sizes. It costs 2 squares of movement to enter a square with dense rubble.
Steep Slope: Characters moving uphill (to an adjacent square of higher elevation) must spend 2 squares of movement to enter each square of steep slope.