Does Create Pit cause structural damage?


Rules Questions

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Ravingdork wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
I think that what matter is the 10'x10' area, the spell effect is "Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels".
So, under your interpretation, I could cast this spell in a flat, 10-foot wide hallway, then squeeze/escape artist underneath the nearby wall, since the slope that is created is not counted for the purposes of placement?

A wall generally isn't considered a flat horizontal surface.

Now if you've got double-wide doors there could be an argument for doing something like you said. First you would want to make your Reflex save to avoid slipping and falling into the pit. It wouldn't be escape artist, but a climb check (DC 25) should do it.


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BretI wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
I think that what matter is the 10'x10' area, the spell effect is "Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels".
So, under your interpretation, I could cast this spell in a flat, 10-foot wide hallway, then squeeze/escape artist underneath the nearby wall, since the slope that is created is not counted for the purposes of placement?
A wall generally isn't considered a flat horizontal surface.

Yes, but as Diego pointed out, the spell's area only covers the 10x10-foot wide pit, not the additional area of the slope. A spell's rules text only governs the effect in the listed areas unless specifically stated otherwise.


I have certainly used and allowed people to use create pit as a way to bypass locked doors before. Didn't break anything.


Ravingdork wrote:

Haha. That is so queer!

That sounds more like a mind-affecting illusion effect, rather than a transmutation effect, claudekennilol. After reading the spell more closely, I think that you must be right, but I suppose much of the above discussion can still be applied to portable holes and their effects on various things.

It's neither illusion nor transmutation. It's a Conjuration type spell of the Creation subcategory. Other subcategories of Conjuration involve Teleportation, Calling, and other kinds of interplanar and intraplanar travel. So it's more a bending of space than anything else. The pit isn't illusion because it is, actually, a relative change in depth compared to its surroundings. But the space is folded in on itself rather than using physical depth. That's why, if you were to tunnel under the hole, you'd never encounter it. With a Create Pit effect 20 feet away and 20 feet deep, you could dig down 10 feet and then dig towards it and go right past, never digging into the side. But the pit is there, it isn't illusionary in nature. It's an actual hole in the ground; just not going through the Z axis but, rather, bending the Z axis through the Astral axis. I'd even be willing to say that, if you dug 10 feet under then tunneled to where the center of the pit would be, then dug 10 feet straight up, you'd dig up into the bottom of the pit which is a total of 20 feet down from where you started. So, you dig down 10 feet, over, then up 10 feet, and you end up 20 feet lower than when you started, despite the fact that 10 feet down followed by 10 feet straight up should result in zero net change.


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Yes, quite right. My mistake.

Grand Lodge

If it cannot have any effect on objects, as they seem immune, then what happens to objects on, or held by creatures?

Does this mean no one can throw a rope down to the creature in the pit?

What happens if one attempts to pour water, sand, gravel etc., down into the pit?


I think it's clear all of us need to click the FAQ button at this point LOL

Sovereign Court

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No need for an FAQ. It's clearly stated in the rules how it functions.

Create Pit is a conjuration(creations) effect. That fall under the rules for conjuration spells. I'll quote it for you all.

Magic Chapter: Conjuration School wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

You can cast a pit under something, but not inside of something. Under a table? Sure table falls in. Under a pillar actually attached to the ground (which should be anything structural in most situations) the spell will fail as it cannot appear inside of the support. You can't use it to cut anything in two, trees or otherwise.

If you've got a 10' wide door you certainly could cast it under there and climb down one side and up the other.


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Barachiel Shina wrote:

I had a player who saw a 30 ft. high balcony being held up by 6 wide pillars. He asked what would happen if he did Create Pit underneath one of the pillars. Would it fall through, weakening the structure, and could he proceed to create more pits beneath the other pillars and cause it all to collapse?

I could not find anything in the spell concerning objects. What if you did create pit underneath a tree, for example? Or the corner of someone's small cabin, would it tilt inside?

I'd probably allow it. For comparison a Shatter spell targeted at a section of the column should destroy or severely damage it enough to cause structural concerns. It is creative use of magic for a direct effect, and since it will take more than one casting to actually pull the thing down (stone columns of that size don't offer a lot of support and would need backup) there's time for folk on the balcony or nearby to take issue and do something about it.

I mean, it would also depend on the width of the pillars, and whether they were sectioned or solid-state and a lot of other factors, but probably.

Grand Lodge

This could be cast upon a lake of still water, or even lava, by the looks of the spell.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
This could be cast upon a lake of still water, or even lava, by the looks of the spell.

"It must arrive on a surface capable of supporting it." I think that rules out putting it on a lake of still water; it may be horizontal and unobstructed, but it will most certainly not support a hole in the ground.


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Kazaan wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
This could be cast upon a lake of still water, or even lava, by the looks of the spell.
"It must arrive on a surface capable of supporting it." I think that rules out putting it on a lake of still water; it may be horizontal and unobstructed, but it will most certainly not support a hole in the ground.
Create Pit, APG pg 213 wrote:
Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material.

Oil has weight and can float on water. I suspect that the pit being even lighter than oil can also float on water.


BretI wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
This could be cast upon a lake of still water, or even lava, by the looks of the spell.
"It must arrive on a surface capable of supporting it." I think that rules out putting it on a lake of still water; it may be horizontal and unobstructed, but it will most certainly not support a hole in the ground.
Create Pit, APG pg 213 wrote:
Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material.
Oil has weight and can float on water. I suspect that the pit being even lighter than oil can also float on water.
Dictionary.com wrote:

verb (used with object)

1. to bear or hold up (a load, mass, structure, part, etc.); serve as a foundation for.
2. to sustain or withstand (weight, pressure, strain, etc.) without giving way; serve as a prop for.
3. to undergo or endure, especially with patience or submission; tolerate.
4. to sustain (a person, the mind, spirits, courage, etc.) under trial or affliction:
They supported him throughout his ordeal.
5. to maintain (a person, family, establishment, institution, etc.) by supplying with things necessary to existence; provide for:
to support a family.
6. to uphold (a person, cause, policy, etc.) by aid, countenance, one's vote, etc.; back; second.
7. to maintain or advocate (a theory, principle, etc.).

Support doesn't only mean to be able to hold up weight, pressure, strain, etc. It's pretty obvious that the surface needs to be able to Support, that is, "serve as a foundation for" a hole in the ground. How, exactly, can water or any other liquid serve as a foundation for a hole in the ground?


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Kazaan wrote:
Support doesn't only mean to be able to hold up weight, pressure, strain, etc. It's pretty obvious that the surface needs to be able to Support, that is, "serve as a foundation for" a hole in the ground. How, exactly, can water or any other liquid serve as a foundation for a hole in the ground?

Normally I would say surface tension, but in this case the answer is magic.

If someone wearing a ring of water walking can be supported, something that is magical and lighter than oil should also be supported.

Would you forbid someone from creating a pit under someone walking across a lake?

How about a Basiliscus lizard, can I Create Pit under one of those animals as it runs across water?

Sovereign Court

How can anything be a proper foundation for an extradimensional space that extrudes through/into/parallel with it?

A pit on the water would be really weird, I imagine it'd quickly lead to some of the water flowing into it. And that point the water level might drop, and then you'd have a pit floating in the air. Then what happens?


Again, we aren't just talking about weight here. Yes, the hole weighs nothing and water can support oil (though, this is a matter of density, not weight, as that same water can also support a ship weighing several hundred tons). But can you dig a hole in water? Or, in other words, the ground would, ordinarily, support a mundane hole, but would water support a mundane hole? To answer your questions, yes, I would forbid someone creating a pit under someone walking across a lake because the water, while supporting someone enchanted with water walking, wouldn't support a hole. If you want to counter this point, please provide video of you digging a lasting hole in water with a shovel. I would, however, allow the casting of Create Pit on a sheet of paper because it is conceivable that you could make a pit out of paper.


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Ascalaphus wrote:

How can anything be a proper foundation for an extradimensional space that extrudes through/into/parallel with it?

A pit on the water would be really weird, I imagine it'd quickly lead to some of the water flowing into it. And that point the water level might drop, and then you'd have a pit floating in the air. Then what happens?

In order for the water to flow into the pit, the pit would have to be heavier than the water or you have to be spraying the water into the pit. We know that the pit is lighter than the water because of the spell description. We know that adding mass to an extra dimensional space doesn't increase the weight because of Handy Haversack, portable hole, bag of holding, and just about every other extra dimensional space.

A 'create pit' on the top of water should not cause the water level to go down.


BretI wrote:


In order for the water to flow into the pit, the pit would have to be heavier than the water or you have to be spraying the water into the pit. We know that the pit is lighter than the water because of the spell description. We know that adding mass to an extra dimensional space doesn't increase the weight because of Handy Haversack, portable hole, bag of holding, and just about every other extra dimensional space.

A 'create pit' on the top of water should not cause the water level to go down.

I'm not following this line of reasoning, I'm afraid.

I'm visualizing a very wide, very shallow pool -- perhaps 40' by 40', but only an inch or so deep (the Reflecting Pool in front of the Washington Monument in DC might be a good example).

Using create pit in the center of the pool creates an artificial, non-Euclidean space that is lower (by local gravitational vector) than the surrounding area. That's basically what the "sloped area" around the pit means. The "slope" is specifically the (artificial) gravity well. So any water in the sloped area will run "down" the slope and into the pit, following the gravity well. Once it's in the pit proper, it's no longer in our normal space (as it's in the extradimensional space), which means there's less water in the reflecting pool, and the water level should indeed go down.

Weight has nothing to do with it -- the pit creates its own pseudoweight through its artificial gravity, and it's effectively lower than anything in the surrounding area (since that's what "slope" means).

Eventually the pool would empty itself into the pit.

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:

If it cannot have any effect on objects, as they seem immune, then what happens to objects on, or held by creatures?

Does this mean no one can throw a rope down to the creature in the pit?

What happens if one attempts to pour water, sand, gravel etc., down into the pit?

The argument was never, "Create Pit does not affect objects." The argument was, "Create Pit cannot uproot or destroy objects embedded in or firmly attached to the ground."

Scarab Sages

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Ascalaphus wrote:
How can anything be a proper foundation for an extradimensional space that extrudes through/into/parallel with it?

The requirement for a horizontal surface would preclude the pit from extending through or into another object. Placing the pit in parallel would be legal, but would not cause a firmly attached object to topple.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:

I'm not following this line of reasoning, I'm afraid.

I'm visualizing a very wide, very shallow pool -- perhaps 40' by 40', but only an inch or so deep (the Reflecting Pool in front of the Washington Monument in DC might be a good example).

Using create pit in the center of the pool creates an artificial, non-Euclidean space that is lower (by local gravitational vector) than the surrounding area. That's basically what the "sloped area" around the pit means. The "slope" is specifically the (artificial) gravity well. So any water in the sloped area will run "down" the slope and into the pit, following the gravity well. Once it's in the pit proper, it's no longer in our normal space (as it's in the extradimensional space), which means there's less water in the reflecting pool, and the water level should indeed go down.

Weight has nothing to do with it -- the pit creates its own pseudoweight through its artificial gravity, and it's effectively lower than anything in the surrounding area (since that's what "slope" means).

Eventually the pool would empty itself into the pit.

Your base assumptions are different than mine.

I'm assuming that the pit has an edge that is above the water line. You are assuming that the edge is below the water line.

Put the edge above the water line and the water level either goes up (because there is a large amount of displaced water) or stays the same. In the case of this spell, I believe it makes more sense to say minimal displacement so the water level stays the same.

If it weren't for real creatures like the lizard and magical effects like water walking, it wouldn't make any difference. Since there are, I would allow the created planar pit to float on water. Doesn't seem like that much of a stretch given other things that sort of magic can do.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
I think that what matter is the 10'x10' area, the spell effect is "Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels".
So, under your interpretation, I could cast this spell in a flat, 10-foot wide hallway, then squeeze/escape artist underneath the nearby wall, since the slope that is created is not counted for the purposes of placement?

No. If you look the discussion we had on the forum several week ago about create pit, the slopes are a weird effect.

It is an area that work as a slope, but only if you end your turn there.

A slope so steep that it will require a reflex save, but that don't require a climb check? Noting like that in the rules outside of this line of spells.

That "slope" exist only if you end your turn in that square. But you can't enter in a square that is filled by a wall (barring incorporeality or other effects). So you can't pass under the wall when you leave the pit as there is no "slope" during your turn, only at its end.

Sure it is an interpretation and you can say that the slope exist all the time and it has special rules. The spell is vague enough that it is a possible interpretation.
If you use that interpretation you need a 20'x20' area of horizontal ground to cast the spell as the slopes are part of the extradimensional pit.

Liberty's Edge

boring7 wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:

I had a player who saw a 30 ft. high balcony being held up by 6 wide pillars. He asked what would happen if he did Create Pit underneath one of the pillars. Would it fall through, weakening the structure, and could he proceed to create more pits beneath the other pillars and cause it all to collapse?

I could not find anything in the spell concerning objects. What if you did create pit underneath a tree, for example? Or the corner of someone's small cabin, would it tilt inside?

I'd probably allow it. For comparison a Shatter spell targeted at a section of the column should destroy or severely damage it enough to cause structural concerns. It is creative use of magic for a direct effect, and since it will take more than one casting to actually pull the thing down (stone columns of that size don't offer a lot of support and would need backup) there's time for folk on the balcony or nearby to take issue and do something about it.

I mean, it would also depend on the width of the pillars, and whether they were sectioned or solid-state and a lot of other factors, but probably.

PRD - shatter wrote:
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid nonmagical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

At most a 200 lbs column. We can be generous and say you can reach 300 lbs with the different caster level enhancing effects.

a cubic meter of limestone weight about 2.500 kg. That is 5500 lbs for 35 cubic ft. 300 lbs are less than 2 cubic feet. An extremely small column. and a freestanding one, as generally a column is part of an edifice, not an object that you can target separately from other things.
For comparison 1 cubic meter of wood would weight less than 2.000 lbs. So 1 cubic foot of wood should weight about 57 lbs. Our guy with 30 caster level will be capable to shatter a 5 cubic feet column.
A 6"*6"*20' pole.

c


BretI wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

I'm not following this line of reasoning, I'm afraid.

I'm visualizing a very wide, very shallow pool -- perhaps 40' by 40', but only an inch or so deep (the Reflecting Pool in front of the Washington Monument in DC might be a good example).

Using create pit in the center of the pool creates an artificial, non-Euclidean space that is lower (by local gravitational vector) than the surrounding area. That's basically what the "sloped area" around the pit means. The "slope" is specifically the (artificial) gravity well. So any water in the sloped area will run "down" the slope and into the pit, following the gravity well. Once it's in the pit proper, it's no longer in our normal space (as it's in the extradimensional space), which means there's less water in the reflecting pool, and the water level should indeed go down.

Weight has nothing to do with it -- the pit creates its own pseudoweight through its artificial gravity, and it's effectively lower than anything in the surrounding area (since that's what "slope" means).

Eventually the pool would empty itself into the pit.

Your base assumptions are different than mine.

I'm assuming that the pit has an edge that is above the water line. You are assuming that the edge is below the water line.

I am indeed. The sides of the pit slope downward -- that's in the spell. That means that there is a gradient from the waterline 10' away from the edge of the pit (20' away from the center point of the spell), so the edge of the pit is effectively "below" the waterline.


Create pit could cause structural damage depending on the situation. It would be 100% up the GM to determine if a structure would be damaged. Using create pit like this would required a engineering skill check in my game to determine if and how much damage could be done. That's how I'd do it.

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