Goblin Squad Member
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However more options are good. So I assume by the Risen escalation comment the skeleton achievement is now introduced ? Did it back date to include existing skeleton kills ?
If I missed someone replying, sorry for repeating the info.
Yes, skeleton achievement is back-dated. My (refiner) character now has some achievement like Skellie-killer 4, which translates to 10 Divine.
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I agree that the killing-blow requirement will be a hardship for support-focused characters. It's also going to be an immersion-breaker for those of us wanting to RP while out and about.
I'm guessing the requirement is there, at least in part, so that we can't just drag a non-contributing character around with us while the damage-dealers kill everything needed for that character's achievements. (Bad memories of the "finns groups" in DAoC (Hibernia realm) here.) Perhaps a requirement of some level of participation - buffing, healing, debuffing, damage - rather than "must land killing blow" can be coded instead? Granted, we don't have to not spec for damage dealing, but we shouldn't have to, either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Drake, for Adventure achievements (like kill 500 goblins), you get credit for every one anyone in your party kills. For Martial/Subterfuge weapon expert achievements (like get 250 kills with long bow), the character currently needs to get the killing blow herself. There was a hint from the Devs that this may be changed in the future.
Aside: I'm not sure that the game is that grindy. My crafter character has Longbow 6 and Hammer 4, for a total of 31 Martial. She has Shortbow 4, for a total of 10 Subterfuge. Neither of those is enough to make me a master fighter or rogue, but I've spent a bare amount of xp on rogue and fighter feats, so that's fair. As for the total number of foes... My TT characters never killed quite as many, but that might have been because each 6-second combat round took 3-15 minutes to play out on the board.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Um, I thought the killing blow requirement was your group needed to get the killing blow. I know we have been avoiding groups because of it bugging recipe's but didn't they fix that?
When getting MonsterKill Achievements (Goblin Slayer, Bandit Slayer, etc.) the entire group gets credit. For Expert Achievements (Arcane Expert, Longbow Expert, etc.) only the Character who gets the killing blow gets credit.
I haven't been able to verify that the group bug on Recipes and Spells is fixed, but I think it is.
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The killing-blow requirement is the biggest barrier to play for me, so I'm looking forward to seeing what innovations await when the "OR" code is working.
There needs to be an alternative to the "killing" requirement, not just the "killing blow" requirement.
A Cleric / Healer should get a point for every full capacity heal that they administer to a character with 50% or less Hit Point, towards a Divine Achievement. He/She should also gain more Divine Points from reviving a fallen character.
A Crafter should gain points towards a Subterfuge Achievement for crafting suits of Light Armor, Short Bows, and Light Weapons.
A Rogue should gain points towards a Subterfuge Achievement for every time he/she successfully stealths passed a group of mobs (within their normal aggro range).
All of these allow for non combat ways to reach those achievements and actually helps breath some soul into the game.
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I haven't been able to verify that the group bug on Recipes and Spells is fixed, but I think it is.
Confirmed fixed. I ust learned a maneuver taht I got in a party loot drop last night
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Quests did a lot of camouflage on this "grindy sensation".
People complain a lot about "kill x quests", but that one was a way to put some fantasy's history and lore sense in grind jobs. Which is by definition a mechanic in any action/rpg game.
If you go to the forest only to get drops or kill X mobs, it is the same of doing those kind of quests. But in a less fatastic manner.
While I understand the rancidness with Themed Park games, because the lack of liberty on what have to be doing. I don't see a robust quest (or even lore) system as a principal characteristic of a Themed Park MMO.
There were lots of idea in this sense (the grind do not feel so grindy), but they were refused at sigh by harshs "This is not Themed Park game" responses. For me those lack of fantasy it is just turned me down (as long as some healthy/personal issues, made me get away a bit from the game)...
As my part, I feel the grinding on actual stage of PFO really boring. It's mindless and disrupt the game from the RPG part of Pathfinder imho.
Everytime I remember Skyrim, I imagine to have those kind of quests (and dinamic ones) here.
Everytime I remember Neverwinter, I imagine those kind of action-combat here. And of course the timely events and map-events.
Maybe it's a misconception of mine. Maybe just my over-expectations on how good game would be. But by now, I don't see me playing PFO for too long. Because, for me, it is not too fun. I was the one who play MMOs for history, the one who read every quest and found awesome when a history evolve in a unexpected manner. The grind is not feel grindy if you are doing it for some long way plot scheme.
So when I read the article, for me, some points are already a problem to be fixed.
PS: I´m not intented to be over-criticism or harsh in this post. It's just what I (and the RL friends that played) sense playing through alpha stages. I tried to be the most constructive I can. So, please, interpret that way... :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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But I need divine points to advance as a crusader and those come through killing things with focus objects.
Good news. After patch you also get divine achievements killing skeletons and cultists and don't have to rely on your cleric focus. Even non-clerics can now gain divine achievements.
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But that Cleric still can't get Divine achievements for Healing, or buffing, or using Knowledge: Religion, etc. Adding more stuff to kill doesn't fix the problem. I know the devs have hinted at more options--I'll be placated by a simple "yes, in the future you'll get achievements by doing stuff other than killing." And tying it to escalations is not the answer, unless every escalation has non-combat solutions relevant to characters. If the achievement is "burn a holy book" let me, for example, sneak into their camp and steal it (so the Rogue gets some glory). When the escalation quests basically result in "go kill this bunch of stuff, oh and it'll drop this widget you need" it's the same as mob farming.
I guess this topic really needs its on thread for Make Meaningful Achievements, so I can Make Meaningful Choices...
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That is what turned me off right from the git-go. I suppose in a way that is shallow of me, the game-play should have been a priority, and player interaction should have been at the top of the list, but visual style immediately suggested a juvenile theme that was about as attractive and interesting as Candy-Land and I never got close enough to find out first hand whether it was just the overwrapping of a good game. I figured I would hear good things about it if it were worth my time, especially since my guild had a sizeable contingent in its beta.Presentation is actually important to the gameplay experience. I don't follow Epic Games assertion that "eyecandy = gameplay", but the artistic style of a game definitely affects the experience. It's not about texture resolution or fancy lighting effects, but the basic character design, environments, etc.
Well although what you write is very informative, eg "calcuated whackiness" resonates, I think Being was definitely on the right tracks, you can sometimes tell a lot about a game's aesthetics that inform "deeper" intentions of how the game is played and hence what the perhaps you can call it "design philosophy" is actually trying to say to the player and community?
Personally a grittier art style for PFO would be fine by me, but I see they're attempting to keep the current Paizo Pathfinder flavor for continuity. It's so important if they're trying to develop social systems in the game such as buildings, politics, taxes (and death!). That said given it's high fantasy the idea of "Planes of Existence" I have a peccadillo for this being more expressed! :)
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AvenaOats the only problem is I'm pretty sure the Great Wheel or w/e D&D called the cosmology in the Planar Handbook wasn't OGL. It's a trope so I think the general idea falls under fair use but I think they have to be careful.
That said yes please on planar travel!
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AvenaOats the only problem is I'm pretty sure the Great Wheel or w/e D&D called the cosmology in the Planar Handbook wasn't OGL. It's a trope so I think the general idea falls under fair use but I think they have to be careful.
That said yes please on planar travel!
Pathfinder has its own cosmology, complete with various planes of existence and other planets in Golarion's stellar system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another MMO crash and burn? doesn't surprise me. My bet is on PFO to succeed
Setting hope aside for a moment, what do you base your bet on?
I don't ask this question to be contrarian or condescending, I am genuinely curious as to what you have seen so far that makes PFO stand above other MMOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder has its own cosmology, complete with various planes of existence and other planets in Golarion's stellar system.AvenaOats the only problem is I'm pretty sure the Great Wheel or w/e D&D called the cosmology in the Planar Handbook wasn't OGL. It's a trope so I think the general idea falls under fair use but I think they have to be careful.
That said yes please on planar travel!
This world-building is very appealing, very artful!
I did find out one nugget of info on Pathfinder's world-building that had me salivating due to it's secrecy... !
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I realize you weren't asking me, Bluddwolf, but I do have an opinion I would share if you're willing.
I still bet on PFO's success, aside from my monetary contributions, because I believe in the game's vision, the team Ryan has assembled working on it, and I am impressed by our community (the most fragile element in the mix). Somehow Ryan himself has gained my trust to guide the development toward the ultimate expression of the game.
He's done everything that I think the community has needed in terms of transparency, fairness, and keeping his eye on the ball. He hasn't stepped on us, letting us form our vision of who we the players are, and it seems clear to me that if we blow it building our end of the game, because it is up to us to do it right, he isn't going to butt in and correct us. He has an idea for how to approach destructive behaviors that, to me, looks unique.
It might just work. And I'm rooting for his vision because frankly if the players of PvP cannot recognize that the rest of the gamers, those dedicated to PvE and afraid of PvP, are needed if PvP is to become what it could be. It takes all kinds to make a world. We have to have all kinds of players and stop fragmenting our games so badly.
Look what has happened to Wildstar. The most common complaint I am reading is that they went too hardcore. Look at ESO: the population after level 50 is not encouraging and it was the after-50 content that was tuned for the hardcore. Count in SWOTOR and we're talking a billion before we even start considering the 50 Million Blizzard dumped into Titan.
We are losing some great works because we aren't together and haven't been able to get along together well enough to unite in a common vision of what a good game is.
We have to, or we're going to lose.
PFO may have a chance to be the online gaming industry's Pathfinder, literally. We need a way forward, and between Chris Roberts and Ryan we may have found the right track. If only the players can bring players into the dream, and live it well, live it fiercely, and love it every step of the way.
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I keep tellin yedudes how to make a successful MMO.
Make it a sandbox, as in the players can overcome anything, there is TC and everything, but introduce large scale pve events that push the community to choose. Like PVE sieges or take overs of areas (not escalations... at all.)
Keep the game sandboxy, but add content. There is no added content that will make a game not sandboxy.
I have looked into the future and I believe that, not the sandpark model, is the future of MMO. So meaningful choices, TC, but also a world where things happen that aren't started by players. A game with npc villains, npc bounty hunters... Just little things like that, I'm telling ya.
I'm convinced that's going to be the only enduring model from here forward, but people aren't trying it yet. People want open pvp and sandbox. I think everyone secretly wants that, but they also want content. Not 'rides' or 'quests' but truly dynamic events that could last weeks.
GW if you want your game to be the best ever... heed.
Edit:
Another MMO crash and burn? doesn't surprise me. My bet is on PFO to succeedSetting hope aside for a moment, what do you base your bet on?
I don't ask this question to be contrarian or condescending, I am genuinely curious as to what you have seen so far that makes PFO stand above other MMOs.
the glimmer of hope that they will actually listen and take chances. That's all. I am up and down regarding whether I believe.
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@ Being,
That is well said, and you are quite correct that GW transparency has been above and beyond most.
I see three things standing in way of PFO being truly great. What I mean by truly great is obviously subjective, but as I go through those three (I'll call them concerns) you may see where I am going.
First, is the graphics and the animations of character movement. Let's not get into the argument that game play trumps graphics. If the first reaction of a potential player is, "What is this 2000?" That is a big, big problem and some on these forums can have their "high brow" view of that sentiment, but it is no less a reality that will keep potential players away.
Lets say they get passed the front cover of this book. The first time they jump into melee combat, the animations will be staring them right in the face and the year 2000 will spring to mind again.
Secondly, the perceived or real grindiness of the achievement gating. This may be addressed by adding more ways to "skin that cat" and hopefully there will be as many non combat and perhaps even social ways to do that.
Third, MVP may create the greatest of hurdles. GW may have in its collective minds what constitutes "Minimum Viable Product", but quite frankly, their belief in that is secondary and perhaps even completely unimportant (if they miscalculate). MVP will be determined by the potential customer. If they are not satisfied that the game is developed to their "Minimum Expectations" for what they will pay for, they won't... period!
There seems to be a disconnect between what GW may consider to be minimally viable and what are reasonable expectations of an MMO being produced in 2014 - 2016.
I would suggest that we take a look at the last 25 MMOs made over the passed 10 years and ask ourselves, "What are the most common 15 features that they share in common." Those 15 features are what MVP expectations are.
PFO should not launch into EE without them, IMHO. I am in no hurry for the game to be released just so it can be said that it is now "EE".
I'd also suggest that launching EE, immediately following a major patch, will likely prove to be a critical error. Which means the EE build (whatever number that will be) should be tested for at least a month.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've seen the artwork improving. Haven't you? It isn't really something that can usually be rushed, and it will take time.
The most common element of the last 25 MMOs, while not universal among them, is that they failed, cost a tremendous amount of money in failing, and a very hefty chunk of that lost money was artwork.
You can deride my sentiment as highbrow as you like, but putting the cart before the horse is ill advised.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder has its own cosmology, complete with various planes of existence and other planets in Golarion's stellar system.AvenaOats the only problem is I'm pretty sure the Great Wheel or w/e D&D called the cosmology in the Planar Handbook wasn't OGL. It's a trope so I think the general idea falls under fair use but I think they have to be careful.
That said yes please on planar travel!This world-building is very appealing, very artful!
I did find out one nugget of info on Pathfinder's world-building that had me salivating due to it's secrecy... !
Just one? They've buried a bunch of unexplained secrets in the lore.
I think the biggest is "What happened to Aroden?!?" On the brink of the fulfillment of a major prophecy, he suddenly goes incommunicado. No more prophecies, no more spells for his clerics. Nothing. As far as anyone can tell, the God of Humanity just died. Nobody claimed credit for killing him. A permanent hurricane erupted that drowned two or three countries, and it's still swirling in place a hundred years later.
Which mystery caught your attention?
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Here is our vision of how this is supposed to work (in the MVP, not long term).
You go into the wilderness and kill monsters to get crafting components and coin. The more monsters you kill, the more components and coin you get.
You bring that stuff back to town and sell it to the crafters. You use the coin you generated in the wilderness and the coin you got from selling the loot to buy upgraded gear so you can kill different monsters and get more valuable crafting components and more coin.
You notice every once in a while while doing this that you've hit an achievement which may be gating your training.
You should find relatively quickly that the time required to accumulate enough XP to advance your training roughly correlates with the time it takes to kill enough monsters to clear the gate.
So it should not feel "grindy" in the sense that you are mindlessly killing monsters for no purpose other than racking up a kill total.
I have the impression some people would like to eventually ONLY do PvP and nothing else. Or at least mainly get their income from PvP at least. For them any killing of PvE content at all is probably an issue.
Even for those players who want to focus on PvP, we're hoping to set things up in such a way that occasionally dealing with PvE content is an organic part of that. In its simplest form, PvP players will have to pay attention to the locations of nearby monsters when attacking other players in the wild, and sometimes they'll have to kill those monsters when they get too close to them. Eventually we hope to have some monsters wandering more widely, making them even harder to ignore completely. Implemented properly, regular PvE interactions will feel like an integral part of PvP. As a result, those PvP players won't be grinding monster kills purely to get achievements, they'll just be earning them along the way. As Ryan said, they'll ideally be earning those achievements roughly in synch with the rate they're earning XP.
In the future, we're hoping to integrate PvE with lots of other systems, like having the Escalations more directly affect harvesting, settlements, faction ratings, POIs, maybe even crafting. That will give players plenty of motivations for dealing with PvE content other than just a desire to advance.
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We are going to have to clear growing escalations, protect our PoIs and otherwise PvE on a regular basis. I don't see us "having" to go out grinding certain mobs, as that will happen anyway as we are protecting our caravan routes, defending our settlements and gathering crafting mats. I think all the folks complaining about that are being shortsighted. Stop looking to see if you completed the achievement. Go out and have fun instead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've seen the artwork improving. Haven't you? It isn't really something that can usually be rushed, and it will take time.
The most common element of the last 25 MMOs, while not universal among them, is that they failed, cost a tremendous amount of money in failing, and a very hefty chunk of that lost money was artwork.
You can deride my sentiment as highbrow as you like, but putting the cart before the horse is ill advised.
This is not the argument that I made as it relates to artwork. Nor is it the discussion that I prompted with regards to the last 25 MMOs. So let me rephrase in case I was unclear.
If you look at any 25 MMOs, you will find that they all have some common features. Those features make up what could be considered industry standards, and I argue make up what the typical MMO player would consider to be minimal viable product.
As for the graphics I had said, they are a deterrent for some to pick up PFO. I have not known any MMO that failed because its graphics were too good. MMOs don't lose money because their graphics were expensive, they lose money because the game was not engaging enough.
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I don't argue with the points you made there Bluudwolf, but the players who won't give the game a shake because the visuals aren't AAA also aren't generally project managers and are not qualified to define the MVP. Those who are project managers, if they were worth their salt, would also demur from asserting the MVP on professional grounds: they don't know enough details.
I understand and understood your point but the mission is to produce what the real project manager has defined as the MVP and I think it is safe to assume that they don't really want a massive opening so it is okay if many thousands don't show up right away, in part because it will take a long time to bring the visuals up to industry standards. That is a given. GW will find it challenging to manage the infrastructure for EE as it is. Let the development process be as gradual as the iterative design can comfortably handle. The visuals are already good enough for us to begin play once the MVP is determined a 'go'. We can live with these graphics until they become as good as it gets.
Finally it is more likely that MMOs fail because they spent more than they can take in fast enough to keep building. PFO is trying to avoid that problem by working through the cycles of development gradually, not breaking the bank but not going broke either. It is an exercise in moderation.
It is okay if we only pull in the players who are more interested in the game than in the packaging.
Slow growth: It's safe! It's tasty! It's Organic!
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If you look at any 25 MMOs, you will find that they all have some common features.
It's not appropriate to compare the most-recent 25 MMOs, as another common element, beyond their shared demonstration of risk of failure, is their average budgets. PFO isn't operating in that realm, nor anywhere nearby.
Without similar budgets, one can't expect all MMOs, successful or not, to share similar features.
The graphics don't have to be good... IF the game is solid. That's what I'm banking on. Depth, balance. I want the math and ideas to be right. The graphics are just to display concepts, to me.
Now if they don't do that, then it's over... if it doesn't end up having its own flavor that people cannot get elsewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The graphics don't have to be good... IF the game is solid. That's what I'm banking on. Depth, balance. I want the math and ideas to be right. The graphics are just to display concepts, to me.
Now if they don't do that, then it's over... if it doesn't end up having its own flavor that people cannot get elsewhere.
I don't recall if it has been addressed, but the animation of combat is at least in part related to game play.
PFO having its own flavor means it needs to have something yuan is innovative or unique to itself. What is that expected to be?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder has its own cosmology, complete with various planes of existence and other planets in Golarion's stellar system.AvenaOats the only problem is I'm pretty sure the Great Wheel or w/e D&D called the cosmology in the Planar Handbook wasn't OGL. It's a trope so I think the general idea falls under fair use but I think they have to be careful.
That said yes please on planar travel!This world-building is very appealing, very artful!
I did find out one nugget of info on Pathfinder's world-building that had me salivating due to it's secrecy... !
Just one? They've buried a bunch of unexplained secrets in the lore.
I think the biggest is "What happened to Aroden?!?" On the brink of the fulfillment of a major prophecy, he suddenly goes incommunicado. No more prophecies, no more spells for his clerics. Nothing. As far as anyone can tell, the God of Humanity just died. Nobody claimed credit for killing him. A permanent hurricane erupted that drowned two or three countries, and it's still swirling in place a hundred years later.
Which mystery caught your attention?
*AvenaOats' eyes narrow sharply, and shift rapidly left and right and back-again*
I'm seriously going to have to dig into all these, thanks for sharing those 3 links in particular (they're all excellent and book-marked). It's really "luciferase?" to explore such world-building, I find. Difficult to find the right word. :)
I know the "unwritten rules" on story-telling just about enough to know that I'm now compelled to return the favor... and not to, some sort of curse will afflict me? However I can invoke the rule that allows the teller of a tale to avoid an anti-climax, which let's me off the hook (only just!). The small secret, a mere trifle compared to the grand designs of dieties, is in part Paizo lore/cannon and in part a tiny sprinkle of spice added... connecting the dots in the lore, while I was doing some research on a number of werewolf materials. To stick to story and not enter the territory of "sale" given this is a favored and focused subject, it concerns the mythology of these beings and their origins. I think something very interesting is buried within it that is somewhat "original" and remains veiled. When a story fits together so well and yet has not been uttered... is it begging to be told or is there a calamitous reason it has not been told? That worries me, but I have a hunch it's the former in this case. Afterall, a good story has to start with ONE set of footprints, doesn't it?
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How many customers did WildStar have? Might a smaller customer-base have alleviated some of the problems?If you read the comments, having a smaller community would have made no difference, and that doesn't even mane sense anyway.
Wild Star failed because it was too Grindy, too much a WoW Clone, and was Soulless.
Goblin Works needs to pay attention to this article, because they may have two of those issues on their own hands.
I never minded grinding. After a while it gives me something of a zen state. Lol
However, Wildstars problem, for me, was that if you made an alt you had to grind the exact same stuff. Games like EQ or even SWtOR were a grind too but at least all your characters had a different path and a different part of the world to do it in.
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The graphics don't have to be good... IF the game is solid. That's what I'm banking on. Depth, balance. I want the math and ideas to be right. The graphics are just to display concepts, to me.
Now if they don't do that, then it's over... if it doesn't end up having its own flavor that people cannot get elsewhere.
I don't recall if it has been addressed, but the animation of combat is at least in part related to game play.
PFO having its own flavor means it needs to have something yuan is innovative or unique to itself. What is that expected to be?
I suppose it is. There are issues. Animation is much easier to do than make everything shiny, I imagine. Some animations in PFO don't even exist yet.
It's nearly impossible to predict a MMO's success. Few have been successful, really. I do feel I have a pretty good handle on what WON'T be good. WildStar fell into that. There is a certain trajectory of hype. I think that's almost by design now. I dunno if companies believe they can hold major subs for so long so they want to sell a lot early.
I do want to say something, all of the stuff I talk about or want in a game (and believe will actually be positive once someone goes all the way in on it) probably won't happen. I know this. That aside, PFO, while not having a unique flavor (to me, yet), is a very ambitious project. All of the skills, the synergies, the feat synergies... a lot of that stuff is not working so well now. Making it all work to combos, balancing it, making builds viable. That's going to be hard work. However, again, it will be all for naught if they don't come up with something special.
Again, a Mortal Online comment: MO was buggy. It was filled with psychopathic people (truly), it had speed hacking and duping. Many unsavory ways to make money, but... that game was had something special that you couldn't get elsewhere.
I feel that the specialness comes less from raw game play than vision. I haven't heard any magic words from PFO staff about their vision. That may be an issue. I understand there is hype, but have we even heard a speech on "What will make PFO different?" Other than, you know, it has words you will recognize if you've played dnd.
The only thing that caught my eye was escalations and they are already boring to me. No real sense of urgency yet... or reward.
Edit: @ AET Raf, the issue with grind is being stuck. If you are always grinding and always progressing that's doable. My Cleric leveled up from 4 focus to 5 by getting 100 focus kills (mostly stacked goblins), and I need 6 to get my next skills (will probably try other ways soon tbh), and I saw the counter go to... 100 out of 250. And I just shook my head. That's only... maybe a couple hours? An hour+ of serious just touch-farming (cuz that's the only skill that does any dmg), but the idea that I was stuck and unable to progress despite the fact that I have 20,000+ experience... was not pleasant for me.
We grind in real life. We progress towards goals, but when you are staring at a number counter watching it slowly rise, that's when grinding becomes an issue.
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I feel that the specialness comes less from raw game play than vision. I haven't heard any magic words from PFO staff about their vision. That may be an issue. I understand there is hype, but have we even heard a speech on "What will make PFO different?" Other than, you know, it has words you will recognize if you've played dnd.
Are you reading the blogs and some of the dev posts?
I would concede that Goblinworks website although improved is still very unappealing in selling the vision so maybe that is what you are referring to? But then that needs to be tempered with what is actually visible to show I'd also caution so they can't oversell the current state of the game either.
You'll find a lot of players wanting more freedom in mmorpgs albeit fearful of what you mention ganking and hacking and aversive to poor performance from bugginess. You can see this with requests for "EVE Fantasy" all over the place, in fact. Usually such requests fail to categorize what it is about EVE that makes it work. PFO does have those features albeit it has the fortune to come after EVE and see ways of developing the game and culture in different directions that are more socially inclusive perhaps?
Anyway if you want vision, I'd say PFO has it in particular:-
1. Hexes (World)
2. Buildings & Settlements (Home & Community)
3. Roles (Characters)
Those immediately kick-ass imo. At each level there's multiple possibilities of extension and integration of systems. Let's take some examples shall we?
1. We could have Mountain Hexes where it snows highly frequently which is lethal to characters without the right furs and outdoor gear as well as different requirements for survial.
2. We could obviously have Total War armies here.
3. We could have a plethora of roles Assassins (truely in role) and I'm working on a role concept too!
At each level there's so much that could be extended and developed.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The grindiness is already an issue, when you consider you have to kill hundreds or even a thousand or more of lowly mobs, just to achieve the lower levels of the roles (ie Rogue 7+).
That grindiness helps lead to that "soulless" feeling, just as end game that is nothing more than a gear grind, or having to raid through the same dungeons over and over again.
I haven't changed my opinion, I think that the actual achievements system will not stay part of the game. I still think that it was a very very bad design choice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I think that the actual achievements system will not stay part of the game.
Given their repeated insistence that they won't allow a player to create a character, wait for years, and suddenly have a never-played, yet very powerful, entity--possibly for sale--what do you believe should replace it? Something needs to require playing the game for advancement, and I've not heard many alternative suggestions.
I feel that the specialness comes less from raw game play than vision. I haven't heard any magic words from PFO staff about their vision. That may be an issue. I understand there is hype, but have we even heard a speech on "What will make PFO different?" Other than, you know, it has words you will recognize if you've played dnd.Are you reading the blogs and some of the dev posts?
I would concede that Goblinworks website although improved is still very unappealing in selling the vision so maybe that is what you are referring to? But then that needs to be tempered with what is actually visible to show I'd also caution so they can't oversell the current state of the game either.
You'll find a lot of players wanting more freedom in mmorpgs albeit fearful of what you mention ganking and hacking and aversive to poor performance from bugginess. You can see this with requests for "EVE Fantasy" all over the place, in fact. Usually such requests fail to categorize what it is about EVE that makes it work. PFO does have those features albeit it has the fortune to come after EVE and see ways of developing the game and culture in different directions that are more socially inclusive perhaps?
Anyway if you want vision, I'd say PFO has it in particular:-
1. Hexes (World)
2. Buildings & Settlements (Home & Community)
3. Roles (Characters)Those immediately kick-ass imo. At each level there's multiple possibilities of extension and integration of systems. Let's take some examples shall we?
1. We could have Mountain Hexes where it snows highly frequently which is lethal to characters without the right furs and outdoor gear as well as different requirements for survial.
2. We could obviously have Total War armies here.
3. We could have a plethora of roles Assassins (truely in role) and I'm working on a role concept too!At each level there's so much that could be extended and developed.
That's not a vision to me as much as building blocks. Under them, there are more blocks. Anything could happen. We got hexes, settlements and roles... cool but how will they be used?But sandbox is probably the reply. I don't believe in the hands off sandbox model. That's not a vision. I don't see much freedom, either. It seems pretty standard. Maybe someday I will make a longer post about pfo... and what I feel, but I don't think people care so much.
I'm not mad really, but I'm not excited. I am not like I can't wait to see what happens! Cuz o already kinda see where it's going. My reaction is... oh.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal take on Goblinwork's vision for Pathfinder Online (and we obviously are not talking about the MVP here):
Persistent virtual world in the spirit of Pathfinder built by the players for the players by forming social bonds allowing them to claim and defend land and to build settlements, points of interest and other structures, towards which the players can feel a genuine sense of ownership, while at the same time carving their own unique story in the dangerous and violent River Kingdoms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I think that the actual achievements system will not stay part of the game.Given their repeated insistence that they won't allow a player to create a character, wait for years, and suddenly have a never-played, yet very powerful, entity--possibly for sale--what do you believe should replace it? Something needs to require playing the game for advancement, and I've not heard many alternative suggestions.
They have also said that there will not be a steep power curve, nor a vast difference between a veteran and a new character.
What they are now saying is that a player who can play 4 - 6 hours a day will have a significant advantage over one who can only play for 2 hours per day. Then take that and compound it by many months of differential in actually playing the game, and you have a steep power curve.
At the very least there seems to be a contradiction.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Given their repeated insistence that they won't allow a player to create a character, wait for years, and suddenly have a never-played, yet very powerful, entity--possibly for sale--what do you believe should replace it? Something needs to require playing the game for advancement, and I've not heard many alternative suggestions.
I just think that they'll get over "their repeated insistence that they won't allow a player to create a character, wait for years, and suddenly have a never-played, yet very powerful, entity".
" Something needs to require playing the game for advancement"
I don't think it does.
What do you think, that if I buy an account without playing it, and after five years, I sell it, the guy will have to play five years before being what he is supposed to be ? Most people will just grind quickly like Chinese farmers under cocaine (or just pay one to do it), and they will suddenly pop out of the blue in the community. All you will have achieved is force them to lose three months of their lives if they are normal people, and two weeks for hard-core gamers.
Edit : and what do you think about the most interesting clients with multiple paid subscriptions ? You know I have the intention of having five or six accounts. You think that I'll grind each of them ? Lol, no way man, I already don't play theme-park because of that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...will have to play five years...
We've seen no sign that one has to play the number of hours the character is old to spend all the experience that character's earned. We have, however, seen that the character does need to be played somewhat, and the definition of "somewhat" is likely to be where the tweaking of the system's going to occur, rather than scrapping the system in its entirety.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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...will have a significant advantage...Do we know the differences in those two characters will be significant? It seems, from the numbers folks've been posting, that it's likely to be incremental differences, not game-changing ones.
If the differences aren't significant, then how in the world is it worth the effort ? Grinding sucks, but grinding for nothing...
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Goblin Squad Member
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They've also said their sweet-spot is where one racks up Achievements by simply playing the game, without excessive need to grind things out individually. At this point, however, the full suite of things-to-do isn't available yet, nor are we advancing the interests of our Companies, Settlements, and Nations.
That means some people are concentrating on things that do--in the present situation--require repetition, such as advancing to higher levels in their Roles as quickly as possible. It's easy to see how those folks might find they're grinding, but we also hear from other voices every day saying they don't believe they're facing a grind, or that the grind they're seeing doesn't appear particularly onerous to them; standards of acceptability vary by player, as expected.
Once there are more things to do, and more causes to do both the things available to do now, and the things that'll be added, we might then be able to more easily assess whether the grind is "too much". At present, it appears--to me--too early for a fair appraisal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reading Bluddwolf I'm just wondering - how does a part-time bandit work who will waylay people one hour a week.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here - but playing more will be an advantage one way or another.
The question is - will it be an insurmountable advantage?
The part-time bandit I ignore. What is the chance he ever is in the right spot at the right time to waylay me.
The around the clock bandit needs clever play, protection or other measures to overcome.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Reading Bluddwolf I'm just wondering - how does a part-time bandit work who will waylay people one hour a week.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here - but playing more will be an advantage one way or another.
The question is - will it be an insurmountable advantage?
The part-time bandit I ignore. What is the chance he ever is in the right spot at the right time to waylay me.
The around the clock bandit needs clever play, protection or other measures to overcome.
That's not the point, the point is you pay for XP, in PFO.
If you have to spend most of your game time keeping up with your achievements, you will not play a lot. And if it's so easy that you don't have to grind blablabla, then the system has no point, since it will defeat the purpose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Reading Bluddwolf I'm just wondering - how does a part-time bandit work who will waylay people one hour a week.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here - but playing more will be an advantage one way or another.
The question is - will it be an insurmountable advantage?
The part-time bandit I ignore. What is the chance he ever is in the right spot at the right time to waylay me.
The around the clock bandit needs clever play, protection or other measures to overcome.
Bandits
Far more bandits roam the Kingdoms than one would think
the population could absorb. Criminals and castoffs from
nearby nations, as well as natives, frequently take a turn at
banditry here. The law is flexible, and the Sixth River Freedom
subtly encourages it.Despite the fierce reputation of River Kingdoms bandits,
many young men and women only try banditry as a side job,
or as a found opportunity when they happen upon treasure
left in weak hands. For a few, it’s the only way to retrieve what
was stolen from them first. Other bandits are mercenary
soldiers turned out of their previous jobs. They would rather
fight than steal, but they’d rather live than starve.Commoners are a hardscrabble lot, so for profit, bandits
target wealthy outsiders. Most cities contain lookouts for
bandit crews, gathering information on likely visiting targets,
or offering guide services to lure visitors into traps. The locals
are always wise to these tricks, and for a handful of coppers, a
local can usually identify the lookouts... assuming he isn’t one
of them himself.For a charismatic few, banditry is a path to legitimacy.
Bandit gangs past a certain size gain their own gravity;
highway robbery becomes usurpation at a surprisingly low
threshold in the River Kingdoms. More than once, a bandit
leader has ended up taking over a keep that he only meant
to plunder at the outset.Yet the River Kingdoms are far from lawless; it’s just
that the laws they adhere to appear lawless in practice.
The Six River Freedoms receive a lot of lip service, but
the primary law of the River Kingdoms is that power
rules. The members of the Outlaw Council would be
quick to inform would-be philosophers that all nations
follow this rule; the River Kingdoms just aren’t shy
about admitting it.
@ Thod,
As you can see, straight from the lore, you are quite correct in assuming that banditry for most will not likely be a full time profession.
However, the UnNamed Company clearly falls within the later grouping of the "Charismatic Few."
Only the eventual game mechanics will tell by what means we will be able to conduct banditry, and how often.