My personal take on Goblinwork's vision for Pathfinder Online (and we obviously are not talking about the MVP here):
Persistent virtual world in the spirit of Pathfinder built by the players for the players by forming social bonds allowing them to claim and defend land and to build settlements, points of interest and other structures, towards which the players can feel a genuine sense of ownership, while at the same time carving their own unique story in the dangerous and violent River Kingdoms.
Yeah, I got that part by it being a sandbox named Pathfinder Online. I was actually hoping for a game more similar to a table top, with more depth.
I'm really not trying to disagree with everything people say, but this is something that I think requires clarity. It's important.
What you listed could be a good game, but what you listed could also be basically what the MVP is.
You see what I mean? Though, I can imagine all of these things working. I can imagine the map full of settlements and everyone fighting... going to nodes, farming escalations. Is that really gonna be enough for you to play for years? That doesn't sound like an enduring model at all to me.
In what way is this game differing from other sandbox games other than that the map is divided into hexes (kinda cool, I guess), and the fact that it's got some table top influence (but maybe not enough in the key points.)
For instance: Crafting is woefully under-developed. You can't make a sword out of moonstone if you want... why not? That's not to mention the possibility of combining things, improving your skill, making legendary weapons, etc. It's just get recipe, get mats. You can argue that you can do plenty... but again...
I believe the word used was "soulless", everything you listed in your vision can be accomplished with the (even alpha) MVP and a little imagination. It doesn't seem very dynamic. Needs more flavor. A lot more.
Just little things... why does every NPC hate you if you have low rep? Shouldn't you be able to still interact with certain NPCs? Maybe they have a different alignment, maybe they are your friend.
It's just my opinion, but those are the type of thing that make a sandbox. Not, "You must join a settlement, you must gather recipes to craft, you must grind achievements..."
Where are the flowers growing out of the ground? I could go on for awhile, but again... who is listening?
Even if OE is in 2016, I can't believe that the game is going to be some hugely dynamic thing by then unless they continue to push the limits. It seems like they do have a vision, and are progressing towards it. It's just, as I said... not the kind of vision that seems like it'll capture the hearts of people. It's a system, for sure.
Goblin Squad Member
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I feel that the specialness comes less from raw game play than vision. I haven't heard any magic words from PFO staff about their vision. That may be an issue. I understand there is hype, but have we even heard a speech on "What will make PFO different?" Other than, you know, it has words you will recognize if you've played dnd.Are you reading the blogs and some of the dev posts?
I would concede that Goblinworks website although improved is still very unappealing in selling the vision so maybe that is what you are referring to? But then that needs to be tempered with what is actually visible to show I'd also caution so they can't oversell the current state of the game either.
You'll find a lot of players wanting more freedom in mmorpgs albeit fearful of what you mention ganking and hacking and aversive to poor performance from bugginess. You can see this with requests for "EVE Fantasy" all over the place, in fact. Usually such requests fail to categorize what it is about EVE that makes it work. PFO does have those features albeit it has the fortune to come after EVE and see ways of developing the game and culture in different directions that are more socially inclusive perhaps?
Anyway if you want vision, I'd say PFO has it in particular:-
1. Hexes (World)
2. Buildings & Settlements (Home & Community)
3. Roles (Characters)Those immediately kick-ass imo. At each level there's multiple possibilities of extension and integration of systems. Let's take some examples shall we?
1. We could have Mountain Hexes where it snows highly frequently which is lethal to characters without the right furs and outdoor gear as well as different requirements for survial.
2. We could obviously have Total War armies here.
3. We could have a plethora of roles Assassins (truely in role) and I'm working on a role concept too!At each level there's so much that could be extended and developed.
That's not a vision to me as much as building blocks. Under them, there are more blocks. Anything could happen. We got hexes, settlements and roles... cool but how will they be used?But sandbox is probably the reply. I don't believe in the hands off sandbox model. That's not a vision. I don't see much freedom, either. It seems pretty standard. Maybe someday I will make a longer post about pfo... and what I feel, but I don't think people care so much.
I'm not mad really, but I'm not excited. I am not like I can't wait to see what happens! Cuz o already kinda see where it's going. My reaction is... oh.
1. Vision:-
the ability to think about or plan the future with imagination or wisdom.
I think it boils down very elgantly.
Let's look again: Hexes, they are dynamic and modular and help create a highly changeable world.
Let's look again: Buildings are extensions of characters and communities and help the players feel as if they have impact on the world of consequence.
Let's look again: Roles, bringing this back into mmorpgs instead of just a combat-machine or The Hero. As before I gave one or two "thrilling" examples.
Tbh I find your communication above not very conducive to discussion it's garbled without pausing to structure a coherent line of thinking, but you asked a very fair question so I felt compelled to answer it, not to attempt to sway you with hype nor tell you what PFO is or should be, but what it could be... and perhaps you failed to recognize that or use your imagination in response to it?
>" I was actually hoping for a game more similar to a table top, with more depth."
I'd say the Tabletop can provide that. They are really great gaming resources from what I've read.
@ "Tbh I find your communication above not very conducive to discussion it's garbled without pausing to structure a coherent line of thinking,"
Haha, that sucks. I did not mean to confuse you. I guess it was more of the style of writing that "rotates around a common theme." The theme was simply that it's not dynamic and there isn't enough nuance. It's on the 'limited' side of the sandbox spectrum. It seems like the larger parts (the ones you listed) can change, but it breaks down at the parts of parts (and beyond) level. Of course, this is just how I feel.
However, I was able to grasp your post, no need to rehash.
I will speak no more in this thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the differences aren't significant, then how in the world is it worth the effort ? Grinding sucks, but grinding for nothing...
I do not mean to point this specifically at Audoucet, but his dismissal of potential has evoked something I would say to many.
It is too easy, isn't it, for mortal man to so lose his sense of values that he knows no sense of worth whatsoever.
So sad.
A different man values differently, and for him the worth is in what he makes of it. You can make your life decisions for the sake of money, or time, or vacuous entertainment, but the man who is invested in humanity, in human culture, in creating history... those values are meaningful. Not pitiful hours of play.
You will find worthy that which you truly value, but if you value nothing, then nothing has worth.
Every action you take, every word you breathe, make them as if they were worth your life.
Seek to create something of value. You either have the vision, or you are only howling in darkness.
PFO is your canvas. GW is supplying the paint. Create, artist, or shut your yap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being tell people to shut their yap, is not called for. Of late of you have been rude and border line obnoxious.
As for the grind, I played eq 1 for years many year. This game currently is just as grindy, with less challenge and more rewards. Obviously I don't mind the idea of some grind, however the form that it is currently in, is very boring. I am hoping for either some progress in the mobs ai/ wandering, or more likely see if pvp will make the game challenging and therefore fun to play. Currently its not for me, and it seems other people have this same issue, and that is really the point of any game. Is it fun? do you enjoy yourself? The point of posting is not to one up each other or silence the game's critics, it to communicate our feelings to the developers and each other. As far as my problems with it as it stand others have stated them in detail. I hope GW manages to address some of these problems, if fear the the MVP will not be engaging/challenging enough for me, and many others, if not I will come back with OE and check to see then.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here is our vision of how this is supposed to work (in the MVP, not long term).
You go into the wilderness and kill monsters to get crafting components and coin. The more monsters you kill, the more components and coin you get.
You bring that stuff back to town and sell it to the crafters. You use the coin you generated in the wilderness and the coin you got from selling the loot to buy upgraded gear so you can kill different monsters and get more valuable crafting components and more coin.
You notice every once in a while while doing this that you've hit an achievement which may be gating your training.
You should find relatively quickly that the time required to accumulate enough XP to advance your training roughly correlates with the time it takes to kill enough monsters to clear the gate.
So it should not feel "grindy" in the sense that you are mindlessly killing monsters for no purpose other than racking up a kill total.
Killing mobs over and over again, weather its for xp, crafting components or to rack up a kill total is grinding and even worse in the case of crafting components, farming.
Trying to narrow the definition of grinding down to an infinitesimally narrow scope so you can claim PFO going to be all about grinding doesn't make PFO not all about grinding.
It just makes you sound like a politician with a background in salesmanship trying to sell a pile of poop by claiming its not brown enough to be poop.
As for PFO sharing Wildstars fate...
No one in there right mind is going to be playing PFO because of what the game is, cause as it stands at the last log in its incredibly repetitive, boring and nothing more then farming and grinding with antiquated graphics that would have looked decent at best, 20 years ago, and non-interesting combat system that is so hindered by the UI its more frustrating then entertaining.
People will play this because of the promised POTENTIAL the game has.
If GW does not bring some of that potential to fruition QUICKLY and give us the game they implied we'd have and let us do what they implied we'd do during EE this game will bomb so badly it will be remembered as nothing more then how NOT to do a MMO.
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Frankly, I know a lot of people who would have been interested in WildStar but refused to even give it a chance because of who produced it. They are still pissed off about them shutting down a PROFITABLE City of Heroes.
For real only reason I did not try Wildstar was because it was from NCSoft, I liked the art style and liked the developer's vision for there game somewhat so I would have tried it for sure if not for NCSoft. I fell one other aspect of Wildstar that hurts it is the size or there Raids, even WoW did away with the 40 man format.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the potentially fatal flaws in the way GW is going about its crafting cycle is that it is creating the sense of the made rush to grind, even the lowest tier gear.
The best player economy in an MMO, in the history of MMOs, did not do it this way. Not even back in its 2003 beta.
Last night was the first time I felt the game was unplayable. Advancement impossible due to broken attributes increase. Leveling feats to level 2 useless, no increase in power of those fears and the apparently only allow the use of higher tier gear, which is sparse on the auction house, if there at all.
With over a week's worth of crafting grinding, all the game has to show in the AH is a handful of tier 1 gear (probably loot drops).
Tier One gear should be dropped, or seeded into NPC vendors.
Crafters should be focusing on simply repairing tier one gear, and crafting tier 2+ gear.
This will elevate the sense that grinding is needed to get the economy off the ground.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do not try to change the definition. That is the job of a backstabbing politician. They will get angry if you try to take their job... and will likely place sanctions on your company. They may even run smear campaigns against you in the next election. Of course, they are dumb enough to think you are in the campaign against them.
I have found myself counting kills way to often to think of it in any other way then grinding. It is grinding for levels... CLASS levels. Its a class even if you want to call it a role. If I want to be a better healer, I have to increase my cleric levels.
It is what it is. If you want it to be different, then make it different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being tell people to shut their yap, is not called for. Of late of you have been rude and border line obnoxious.
That is how you took it. What I did was urge people to embrace responsibility for the value they place on what they do. It is incongruous to assign responsibility for the value of what you do to a sandbox game.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I do not mean to point this specifically at Audoucet, but his dismissal of potential has evoked something I would say to many.
It is too easy, isn't it, for mortal man to so lose his sense of values that he knows no sense of worth whatsoever.
So sad.
A different man values differently, and for him the worth is in what he makes of it. You can make your life decisions for the sake of money, or time, or vacuous entertainment, but the man who is invested in humanity, in human culture, in creating history... those values are meaningful. Not pitiful hours of play.
You will find worthy that which you truly value, but if you value nothing, then nothing has worth.
Every action you take, every word you breathe, make them as if they were worth your life.
Seek to create something of value. You either have the vision, or you are only howling in darkness.
PFO is your canvas. GW is supplying the paint. Create, artist, or shut your yap.
Er, I hope you don't consider breathing that nonsense as "worth your life". What's sad is people considering farming to be a worthy experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is part of the grind (perceived or otherwise) due to the large amount of experience that people are logging into during Alpha?
I have not played Alpha, but I have been reading the boards and it sounds a bit like what would happen if someone had taken a break for a few months then logged in to a bunch of unspent experience.
"Oh my goodness, I can get xxxx8, but I have to kill 250 goblins with an axe, sword, and longbow."
Would it be less grindy if you were looking ahead and saw - I'll have xxxx8 by Christmas as long as I kill 250 goblins with an axe, sword, and longbow over the next 3 months?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think there are several more issues why it feels a grind
A) this is alpha - everything gets wiped. I have players in my allience who don't bother because of that. Alpha takes away a lot of meaningful interaction
B) this is alpha and we don't have yet full numbers. This means I do a lot currently solo. That also makes it feel more like a grind compared to playing in a social setting
C) people try to go for single class it seems. I'm a fighter 2 and have >250 kills with Longbow and mace and >100 with the great sword and short bow. I know that when I was at 99 goblins that I looked for goblin 100 - but otherwise I kill them when I feel I want or avoid them when I go fast from a to b.
D) the whole game is now how old? I might have racked up 1000 kills total and not trying. Yes - I played a lot. But they add up. Now if I go from a to b I don't make beeline around monsters - I just rush through them - adding to the kill numbers
What was a grind for me? Taking me 45 minutes yesterday fom TK to the settlement in the South to give my daughter a hand up and heavy armour and longsword. And then going all the way back this morning as my jealous son wanted armour and longbow as well but didn't sign in when I was in TK to hand it to him.
Kills - I guess around 50 - 25 each direction. And some 20-30 nodes that I harvested. I agree if you are focussed on a single role then you have an issue.
I'm now constantly out of XP as there is soooo much I qualify but can't do right now.
And yes - the above is my first character. My two alts feel a grind to fight with as they are considerably worth and I have to play much more careful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is part of the grind (perceived or otherwise) due to the large amount of experience that people are logging into during Alpha?
I have not played Alpha, but I have been reading the boards and it sounds a bit like what would happen if someone had taken a break for a few months then logged in to a bunch of unspent experience.
"Oh my goodness, I can get xxxx8, but I have to kill 250 goblins with an axe, sword, and longbow."
Would it be less grindy if you were looking ahead and saw - I'll have xxxx8 by Christmas as long as I kill 250 goblins with an axe, sword, and longbow over the next 3 months?
The current alpha has been up for just over a week. We started from scratch and gain xp as we would when the game launches. I play a couple hours a day, more on some days and less on others.
I have found myself looking for the magic number of kills I need to increase a skill/class.
So, not really a large amount of xp. Have been playing regularly. And still looking for what I have to grind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Er, I hope you don't consider breathing that nonsense as "worth your life". What's sad is people considering farming to be a worthy experience.
Some people do enjoy farming, mindlessly and for hours, whether the rest of us understand and empathise or not. That we are different does not make their personal values wrong, or sad, really. What is sad, I think, is when someone values nothing.
Since we are spending segments of our limited mortal lives doing what we do, those segments are already worth the value of the time we invest in them, whether the purpose is for relaxation, an expression of creativity, therapeutic purposes, or what have you. Some have the semblance of an excuse because they sincerely have not come to terms with their own mortality and feel immortal I suppose.
We should, in my view, consider whether the value we derive from a hobby or a habit is greater than or lesser than the value of the time we spend focused upon it. The value of that time should be worth the portion of our finite lives on Earth, or it is a portion of life misspent.
Yet what each of us values will vary with who at core we are. It is not possible for the developer to predict more than generally what their target customer will value. And when their described design is clearly intended for those who more wish to do whatever they will value, and not passively experience a pre-created commercial values-package (as they would in a themepark game), then should we have an expectation that the design of a sand-box will also supply a pre-created commercial values-package before we will say it has worth?
If you came into this sandbox design wanting the advantages of liberty and consequence, but remain unwilling to develop and value your vision of what you wish to express and enjoy in that sandbox, then you aren't helping to create value or worth. Instead you would be someone pretending to be an artist by staring at a blank canvas waiting for the Mona Lisa to simply appear there without lifting a brush or choosing your palette of colors.
Pre-packaged commercial values are either themepark or instruments of marketing. I don't think it ever should have been expected that a sandbox design should somehow provide our values for us. The implication is that they cannot provide the worth you find in the game. You have to find your worth.
It is up to us, not GW, to make this fabricated environment worth our while. PFO should be just a creative medium we can work together with.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Some people do enjoy farming, mindlessly and for hours, whether the rest of us understand and empathise or not. That we are different does not make their personal values wrong, or sad, really.
Mmh, yeah, totally does.
(I skipped the rest of your post, since you essentially don't say anything)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here are stats for Thod:
Adventure points: 35
Arcane : 0
Crafting: 14 (I think this might be 6 more if level 4 means 4 points and not 1)
Devine : 2
Martial: 14
Social: 0
Subterfudge: 5
He is a fighter - so he doesn't need arcane, devine or subterfudge nor social.
So whoever says you can't get up adventure because of having to kill 1000 goblins - well - there are alternative ways. And I'm not even sure I count them correct - so it might be more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some people do enjoy farming, mindlessly and for hours, whether the rest of us understand and empathise or not. That we are different does not make their personal values wrong, or sad, really.Mmh, yeah, totally does.
(I skipped the rest of your post, since you essentially don't say anything)
Which is an indication of your problem. You do not value what you ignore not because it isn't there, but because you ignore it. You do not value what I have been saying. Without reading them, you have decided that my words aren't worth your time in the same way that PFO achievements aren't worth the time it takes to achieve them, thus proving my point.
Achievements are a metric regulating abilities. The regulation of player abilities is either something you don't value, or you don't think that regulation will be beneficial to the game. If it is the former then that says something about your values. If it is the latter then what would you replace achievements with?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if I get flamed here:
If you need another point and go from 250 goblins to 500 goblins and find it a grind, then you are doing it wrong.
Go instead from 0 to 10 goblin dogs. Nope - still on 5/10. Damn - I need to grind 5 more goblin dogs to go from 35 to 36 points.
Adventure points are easy !!
There are lots of different monster types there. Don't slay the 100th goblin. Go out and look for a new monster type. And yes - Elite Goblins count extra.
I have killed for advenute points:
Bandits
Ogres
Elite Goblins
Goblins
Wolfs
Goblin Dogs
Elite Bandits
There are several other monster classes I have avoided as they are part of escalations and won't do them on my own. And the 'go and kill 10 goblin dogs' is not that dissimilar from some suggestions I have seen in the thread about meaningful goals.
Edit: Could someone tell me what level I need to train for the 35 adventure points - so that I don't have enough?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Which is an indication of your problem. You do not value what you ignore not because it isn't there, but because you ignore it. You do not value what I have been saying. Without reading them, you have decided that my words aren't worth your time in the same way that PFO achievements aren't worth the time it takes to achieve them, thus proving my point.
Achievements are a metric regulating abilities. The regulation of player abilities is either something you don't value, or you don't think that regulation will be beneficial to the game. If it is the former then that says something about your values. If it is the latter then what would you replace achievements with?
I did read you, but you don't say anything, you are just making general empty statements while listening to yourself, in a weird attempt to look "wise".
And Being. My values ? Man, being old doesn't give you any kind of authority on the account of values. Especially since you are a relativist.
If you see any kind of worth in killing 200 goblins, good for you. I already did it in hundreds of games, and I am very sorry to say, but the highlight of PFO is not, the combat gameplay.
If you want to be guided in your gameplay, I have no problem with GW rewarding you with a pink goblin pet or a "King of Kills" title, but I am myself more interested in the sandbox aspect of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being
In every community there are standard values, they are highly dependent on the "environment". In a game environment = game mechanics. Saying that "we are free to do what we want here, so lets think of a way to spend our time the best way" will break of our differences, and values that win are those that are stimulated by the environment. If the game ends up stimulating grind - grind will be the standard here and it won't change until it stops being stimulated. I saw several times the situation when a MMO stopped encouraging grouping - majority immediately started playing solo, moreover, they cried about it not stimulating grouping anymore, while refusing to party up because it "wasn't effective". I have my purposes for playing a game, I work towards them - but that is just a grain of sand that does not have any effect on where the main stream is going. To actually affect it and create a Mona Lisa, a higher commitment is needed than just taking a brush - commitment that one cannot expect from a regular player who has other things to do in life.
I don't really like all these pointless complaints about game that is far from being finished, and think that constructive suggestions on how to archieve the stated developement goals would be a bit more useful. But I believe that eventually the community will only act the way that the game encourages it to act and I'd like to see the corresponding stimulation mechanics to be implemented at some point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...eventually the community will only act the way that the game encourages it to act and I'd like to see the corresponding stimulation mechanics to be implemented at some point.
Your points are well taken, psyphey. On the last, your quoted point, do you see any way to stimulate ability progression while still regulating the power of individual characters to a rough parity that would not be interpreted 'grinding'?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is part of the grind (perceived or otherwise) due to the large amount of experience that people are logging into during Alpha?
I think part of it might be, but mostly as a hold-over from the build that awarded us so much experience that the only way we could use it was by either grinding out achievements or by using the shotgun method of buying out every trainer of low level feats for all roles.
If xp accrued more slowly than it does currently, or the xp cost of feats increased, the feeling of grindiness might vanish. That might only result in complaints that xp gain is too slow, and I think it would argue for slowing escalation rates, but it might be an approach toward solution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your points are well taken, psyphey. On the last, your quoted point, do you see any way to stimulate ability progression while still regulating the power of individual characters to a rough parity that would not be interpreted 'grinding'?
The current system is not really working yet, because of the lack of many things in alpha that will be in EE, so tbh I don't see any problem here in the first place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did read you, but you don't say anything, you are just making general empty statements while listening to yourself, in a weird attempt to look "wise".
Weird? Is your 'normal' attempting to look foolish?
And Being. My values ? Man, being old doesn't give you any kind of authority on the account of values. Especially since you are a relativist.
There are other -isms than absolutism or relativism, and I'm not at all an authoritarian. You said the method of regulating character power in PFO is worthless, an absolutist authoritarian assertion. Somehow you presume to be arbiter of value, yet accuse me of your own tendency. That is called projection.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Somehow you presume to be arbiter of value, yet accuse me of your own tendency. That is called projection.
It's actually the other way around, but intellectual honesty isn't your strong suit.
You are the one trying to impose your views here. You are the one talking about my " values ".
Read yourself.
Me, the only thing I was saying is that I am sure that the achievement system will disappear.
If my opinion doesn't suit you, that is in no way my problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ "Tbh I find your communication above not very conducive to discussion it's garbled without pausing to structure a coherent line of thinking,"
Haha, that sucks. I did not mean to confuse you. I guess it was more of the style of writing that "rotates around a common theme." The theme was simply that it's not dynamic and there isn't enough nuance. It's on the 'limited' side of the sandbox spectrum. It seems like the larger parts (the ones you listed) can change, but it breaks down at the parts of parts (and beyond) level. Of course, this is just how I feel.
However, I was able to grasp your post, no need to rehash.
I will speak no more in this thread.
Well you take the suggestion with good humor and put me to rights where I could simply have said "I was confused by some of your commentary", :-). Maybe I'm the one making a meal of things here, hehe, but I notice in mmorpg forums a substantial lack of accurate articulation when players want to discuss what they find lacking in the genre and equally what they grope towards wanting more of. Of course there's sometimes the complete opposite and searing light of clarity of expression and vision breaks through.
Where does such random musings fit into the thread? Well, it could be argued the Carbine devs decided there was a substantial market of players who clearly expressed a desire to play a game such as Wildstar, so much so they were willing to put a business plan together for the above game's budget, which a quick google search indicates was in development for 7 years on a budget of 50-70m$ region. It's not an issue if that cursory spot-check is wrong, the ball-park is more than enough.
Of course the problem seems to be that perhaps the market was smaller than estimated and equally continued to decline over the course of the apparently long development.
So what can be done? Well we see with PFO that it starts small and can iterate development and hence vision over time. I think there is vision here and if one word were to summarize it which Ryan has used often:-
"Fractal".
Maybe if you look at the fractal picture quickly you only see a weird and definite shape. Were you to look closer you'd see how crazy these shapes really are... and they're all over nature, funnily enough!
Here's the picture again:-
Fractal: "HEX -> Settlement -> Buildings -> Character Roles"
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@AvenaOats - I think you touched on one of the things GoblinWorks has going for them. They are using seemingly an Agile Development methodology and opting to released a minimum viable product as early as possible, and then have players give feedback right away so the game can be shaped iteratively into the game people want to play.
That kind of pattern seems to me one that will help avoid the WildStar outcome, where years and millions of $ are spent developing a vision that ultimately was irrelevant before it was released.
I think PFO's issue will be to maintain excitement as people/players await core features or promised features to be update or added.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...which is where I was trying to go, however ineptly or offensively, with what I was saying. We have our part to do, and so much of the 'worth' of PFO will be dependent more on us than on the developer.
Imo one of the USP's of EE PFO will be the great community we find here. Guess I've invested a few years into the community already. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Roughly 10% of a game community actually visits a game forum.
Only those who think it is a positive experience, actually visit it.
Is there any evidence that an MMO or other game has sold additional subscriptions based on its forum community?
I'm not saying this is not a good community, but let's not make it something it isn't. Let's especially not burden it with the responsibility of being a scapegoat for the game's failure, if it should fail.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's true, I think the sub model in this case should work FOR PFO ie the small number of early players willing to pay are choosing to invest in the game's fortunes (those Destiny's Twins going up in value for one example), whereas possibly it works against Wildstar? Another comparison.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's true, I think the sub model in this case should work FOR PFO ie the small number of early players willing to pay are choosing to invest in the game's fortunes (those Destiny's Twins going up in value for one example), whereas possibly it works against Wildstar? Another comparison.
It would not even bother me if PFO sold the DT later on. Say for 2 years worth of a sub. So $350. That would almost guarantee you 2 years of a paid subscription and another 2 years that the person invested in. They would more then likely stay for that 2 years minimum.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having read most of the exchange between Audoucet and Being, I agree far more with Being even though I find his posts rather pretentious.
I also find the vision and tone Audoucet seems to be pushing towards rather distasteful and disagree that the XP dump from Alpha IS a major source of the grinding feeling and it would be lessened with less XP to spend and more time to naturally accrue the achievements that gate the feats.
Dismissiveness and insulting others for the way they choose to play a game is rather petty and I dislike that path. I understand it isn't the prevalent choice but still valid.
That being said take this all with a grain of salt as I'm speaking from a entirely theoretical point as I do not have Alpha access. I'm basing my thoughts off the information I have. My current understanding is that normally new players would have only 1000xp on character creation but Alpha characters have several thousand upon creation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having read most of the exchange between Audoucet and Being, I agree far more with Being even though I find his posts rather pretentious.
I also find the vision and tone Audoucet seems to be pushing towards rather distasteful and disagree that the XP dump from Alpha IS a major source of the grinding feeling and it would be lessened with less XP to spend and more time to naturally accrue the achievements that gate the feats.
Dismissiveness and insulting others for the way they choose to play a game is rather petty and I dislike that path. I understand it isn't the prevalent choice but still valid.
That being said take this all with a grain of salt as I'm speaking from a entirely theoretical point as I do not have Alpha access. I'm basing my thoughts off the information I have. My current understanding is that normally new players would have only 1000xp on character creation but Alpha characters have several thousand upon creation.
We all started with 1000xp and gain 100xp per hour in the current alpha.
If you want an Alpha invite, send me a pm with your email.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That being said take this all with a grain of salt as I'm speaking from a entirely theoretical point as I do not have Alpha access. I'm basing my thoughts off the information I have.
So what are you waiting for? Send me a PM for Alpha access and jump into the shark infested Alpha waters, its fun I assure you! LOL
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Goblin Squad Member
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...even though I find his posts rather pretentious...
Well, I don't know whether pretentious is really the right word since I am fairly authentic and have well earned my thoughts and language, but I am sure I sound pretentious or pedantic or arrogant at times and those are things I must incessantly work on. I'm not without sin, and I do wish to be wise, much as Audocet accused, but Wisdom really is an authentic desire of mine, something I wished for from an early age and have paid for in many ways over the years when the world sternly questioned me on it, the way the world tends to.
I apologize to the community for my excess and my hubris, but with it all please know I am sincere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wrote stuff, lots of times....
I can understand why many people find your words
"pretentious or pedantic or arrogant at times" as I struggle most of the time to make sense of what you write. The way you express yourself in words is not "normal standard English" compared to the way (in my view)as the vast majority of people who post here express themselves.I have gotten better at understanding "Being-speak" overtime, but still I get lost in your meaning, intent and tone... :)