So the first question is that you use either what the weapon would give you or replace it all. Using your unarmed dmg replace all damage that the shield would do.
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I'm going to go with chess pwn here. All bashing would do is delay when your unarmed damage overtakes your shield damage.
Bashing increases the 'size' of the weapon but the size of the weapon has no effect on the wielder's size and that's what the unarmed damage is based on.
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ok to clear things up
Warpriest has a very similar thing
it states
At 4th level, the warpriest gains the ability to enhance one of his sacred weapons with divine power as a swift action. This power grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every 4 levels beyond 4th, this bonus increases by 1 (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). If the warpriest has more than one sacred weapon, he can enhance another on the following round by using another swift action. The warpriest can use this ability a number of rounds per day equal to his warpriest level, but these rounds need not be consecutive. These bonuses stack with any existing bonuses the weapon might have, to a maximum of +5. The warpriest can enhance a weapon with any of the following weapon special abilities: brilliant energy, defending, disruption, flaming, frost, keen, and shock. In addition, if the warpriest is chaotic, he can add anarchic and vicious. If he is evil, he can add mighty cleaving and unholy. If he is good, he can add ghost touch and holy. If he is lawful, he can add axiomatic and merciful. If he is neutral (with no other alignment components), he can add spell storing and thundering. Adding any of these special abilities replaces an amount of bonus equal to the special ability’s base cost (see Table 15–9 on page 469 of the Core Rulebook). Duplicate abilities do not stack. The weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus before any other special abilities can be added.
I don't see how what you posted alters what I said.
"At 5th level, a brawler’s damage with close weapons increases. When wielding a close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that weapon (for example, a 5th-level Medium brawler wielding a punching dagger deals 1d6 points of damage instead of the weapon’s normal 1d4)."
All "Bashing, shield spikes and impacting" does is increase the base damage of the weapon. The ability says you can take the weapon damage or your unarmed damage -4 levels. To affect the unarmed damage, you'd have to increase your size NOT the weapon's size.
In an unrelated note, the text for the Shield Champion reads 'can throw a medium or light shield' - does this include a 'medium' sized heavy shield? I could find no entries anywhere for a 'medium' shield, only 'heavy' and 'light'...
I'd say it's yet another editing error. I'd say heavy and light instead of medium and light.
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Close Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 5th level, a brawler’s
damage with close weapons increases. When wielding a
close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a
brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that
weapon (for example, a 5th-level Medium brawler wielding a
punching dagger deals 1d6 points of damage instead of the
weapon’s normal 1d4). If the weapon normally deals more
damage than this, its damage is unchanged. This ability
does not affect any other aspect of the weapon. The brawler
can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of her
adjusted unarmed strike damage—this must be declared
before the attack roll is made.
Why are you ignoring this sentence in the middle of the text
Post #1 Yes, base WEAPON damage. Now you get that OR your unarmed damage. Increasing your weapon damage does just that but it does nothing to the unarmed damage.
Post #3 The enhancement works just fine. Bonuses are different than altering the base damage.
Post #3 No, I didn't ignore that at all. That ability is totally intact as it continues it increase you shield base damage. What you are ignoring is that the ability says you use the weapons damage (which the power increases) OR you can use your unarmed damage (which isn't affected by bashing). Now if you have an ability that increased your unarmed damage, that'd work.
What the line you quote is there for is that it lets you know the weapon still acts in all other ways as the same weapon. For instance same crit rate, damage type, reach, ect.
I'm going with all those enhancements as altering the weapons damage. Nothing leads me to believe that those enhancements alter your unarmed damage. All they do is increase your weapons size.
Now do this with another weapon. Take a dagger. You up it's size from medium to huge, wield it in both hands and take it's damage to 1d8 would this alter your unarmed damage in any way? Nope Same with the shield.
Changing the size is shifting the base damage to a larger size. You need an effect that sifts your size to affect unarmed attacks.
Yep, Rushley son of Halum has it.
No. He's saying that a size increase alters the base damage of the weapon.
A large short sword is a d8 damage dice, that's it's base damage. It's not an upgrade from a d6, it's just a d8, period.
So while spikes and bash increase the damage they do so as if it were the base damage. That they are upgrades is less important than the type of upgrade they provide. This isn't an argument, this is how it works.
The base damage becomes 2d6, well above the brawlers unarmed strike damage and so that ability doesn't apply. That's already a pretty huge damage boost, don't be greedy.
Your posts are actually a little confusing, i'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say, or rather how you're trying to get there.
Greater magic fang doesn't increase your base damage. It increases it through enchantments. That's the base damage.
Thank you for clarifying your position.
The bashing enhancement says, "deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger". Your position is that this is considered an upgrade on the base dice of the weapon, rather than an upgrade provided by the enchantment?
I mentioned magic fang as an off the top of my head example - it may have been a bit imperfect.
I was reaching for a method of enhancing the damage on an unarmed strike, for comparison's sake.
arcenierin, it doesn't matter that it's an enchantment, you have to read what the enchantment DOES. Bashing makes the weapon bigger for damage. this makes the base damage bigger but it's still the base damage and it's base damage that gets check for when figuring out if unarmed damage or weapon damage is used.
On magic fang, the spell doesn't alter base unarmed damage so it doesn't do anything for the shield. If you had an ability that said "you deal unarmed damage as if you where 2 sizes bigger" then that would increase your unarmed damage.
You're reaching for a way to turn a powerful ability into something insane. Don't hide that. You're obviously just a power gamer looking for the next way to do an absurd level of damage.
This isn't it.
The base damage of a weapon is the dice it uses, not other bonus's that come attached.
Spikes and bashing increase the base damage of the shield.
The brawler ability lets them use their base unarmed strike dice with other weapons.
The Shield is already well above that so just leave it alone.
Putting the bashing property aside, then, Using a different weapon totally, just for clarity's sake.
If we were discussing a punching dagger instead of a shield...
I could make my punching dagger a 1d6 weapon out of the gate.
If I then wanted to enchant my dagger to do 1d6 elemental damage on strike, are you saying this should be allowed since the enchantment is added damage, and does not impact the base damage of the weapon?
Not snarking - really trying to follow the logic.
Yep, that's it. Bonuses from the weapon continue to work on the weapon and bonuses to unarmed don't. Your +2 flaming shield would indeed add +1d6 fire to damage and add a +2 enchantment bonus to hit and damage.
It's the size changes that work what looks backwards at a quick glance. Size changed alter the base damage into a new base damage. So changes to the shields size changes it's base damage and change to your size changes your unarmed damage.
The wording on this ability and how it interacts with Bashing is a bit foggy and is definitely something FAQ worthy. But let's keep the rules in the book in mind before we start getting angry here.
The AC dodge bonus is serious too. It specifically brings up shields as stopping the bonus.
According to the ACG, here's the description:
At 4th level, when a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD. This bonus increases by 1 at 9th, 13th and 18th levels
Emphasis mine. It specifically calls out wearing armor. A shield isn't worn, it's wielded.
Thing is, brawlers aren't normally proficient in shields so why mention them at all?
They actually are:
A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons plus the handaxe, short sword, and all weapons in the close fighter weapon group.
Again, emphasis mine. Close weapons are defined as: bayonet, brass knuckles, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart
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Rushley... if you're complaining about power gamers, you're in the wrong forum, my friend.
On reading the relevant passages, I think that the intent of the ability is to allow the brawler to use whichever damage value is most beneficial. Also, given the line about not affecting any other aspect of the weapon, I believe the damage comparison and choice is limited to the base weapon damage, before magical effects.
A spiked shield isn't a magical enhancement, but rather a specific type of weapon. It's listed as such on the paizo srd. (http://paizo.com/prd/equipment.html)
So I'd say you could either use the spiked shield damage, or the unarmed strike damage. After choosing your base, you would then apply bashing to increase the damage dice from there.
Assuming you play a catfolk shield champion and take the Cat's Claws racial trait (1d4 claws as natural attack), then Catfolk Exemplar "sharp claws" (1d6 claws as natural attack), then Feral Combat Training (use natural attacks as part of flurry, apply unarmed strike enhancements to natural weapons), would the enhanced damage from your claws apply to the shield?
No, because Close Weapon Mastery specifically says, "unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower or the base damage for that weapon" and a catlfolk's claws are natural attacks.
So, wearing a Monk's robe to up my effective unarmed damage should in theory translate to my close weapon mastery, then?
Yes, you increase your unarmed damage by 5 levels (+1 chart level after the -4 levels from the ability).
Assuming you play a catfolk shield champion and take the Cat's Claws racial trait (1d4 claws as natural attack), then Catfolk Exemplar "sharp claws" (1d6 claws as natural attack), then Feral Combat Training (use natural attacks as part of flurry, apply unarmed strike enhancements to natural weapons), would the enhanced damage from your claws apply to the shield?
This becomes more interesting were you to take, say Improved Natural Attack (assuming a benevolent DM allows such) to further enhance the damage of the claws/natural attack/unarmed strike.
This works the same way as the shield. Feral Combat allows you to use your unarmed damage instead of your claw damage. Catfolk Exemplar and Improved Natural Attack alter your claw(weapon) base damage. None affect your unarmed damage and thus wouldn't translate into any extra damage to your shield.
This works the same way as the shield. Feral Combat allows you to use your unarmed damage instead of your claw damage. Catfolk Exemplar and Improved Natural Attack alter your claw(weapon) base damage. None affect your unarmed damage and thus wouldn't translate into any extra damage to your shield.I don't read FCT as swapping claw damage for unarmed damage as it states: "you can apply... effects that augment an unarmed strike" to the claws, which would imply that the monk/brawler's unarmed strike damage progression would also apply to the claws as well, which puts the claws into a nebulous place.
It's been ruled that the scaling damage from unarmed damage is an 'effects that augment an unarmed strike'. That in no way makes claws unarmed attacks. If it did, there would be no reason to tell you that "you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature" as you can already use unarmed attacks with a flurry.
It's been ruled that the scaling damage from unarmed damage is an 'effects that augment an unarmed strike'. That in no way makes claws unarmed attacks. If it did, there would be no reason to tell you that "you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature" as you can already use unarmed attacks with a flurry.This works the same way as the shield. Feral Combat allows you to use your unarmed damage instead of your claw damage. Catfolk Exemplar and Improved Natural Attack alter your claw(weapon) base damage. None affect your unarmed damage and thus wouldn't translate into any extra damage to your shield.I don't read FCT as swapping claw damage for unarmed damage as it states: "you can apply... effects that augment an unarmed strike" to the claws, which would imply that the monk/brawler's unarmed strike damage progression would also apply to the claws as well, which puts the claws into a nebulous place.
True, Close Combat Mastery in no way augments your unarmed damage. Your close weapon damage is augmented by your unarmed strike damage.
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But getting back to the original point of this post. I think the key is in the wording of the abilities:
When wielding a close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that weapon...
This ability does not affect any other aspect of the of the weapon.
A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger
Close Combat Mastery specifically does state that it trades one base damage for another. Bashing does not increase base weapon damage, simply that the "weapon" deals damage is if it were larger. Unfortunately, by RAW, that would mean the two abilities stack.
However, a clever GM could make the argument that Close Combat Mastery specifically states that it does not change any aspects of the weapon, but Bashing is an enchantment for [b]armor[/]...
Close Combat Mastery specifically does state that it trades one base damage for another. Bashing does not increase base weapon damage, simply that the "weapon" deals damage is if it were larger. Unfortunately, by RAW, that would mean the two abilities stack.
As I pointed out earlier, size changes alters your base damage to a new base damage. A 1 step size increase makes a medium dagger into a large dagger dealing d6 base damage. Bashing does the same thing by increasing the base damage by 2 sizes to a new base damage.
In essence you're moving a small weapon to a large weapon. The thing is, the unarmed damage part doesn't change your base damage. You just get the option of using it instead of the weapon's damage. This is how size changes work; they give a new base damage.
And herolab isn't a rules source Humphry.
As I pointed out earlier, size changes alters your base damage to a new base damage. A 1 step size increase makes a medium dagger into a large dagger dealing d6 base damage. Bashing does the same thing by increasing the base damage by 2 sizes to a new base damage.
I understand where you're coming from, and at my tables, I would rule in your favor, because I feel that this is how the rule is intended to work.
However, without an FAQ, we're left with interpretation based on the rules as they currently exist. The only reference I can find that specifies that increasing a weapon's "effective" size altering it's base damage is in the spell description for Strong Jaw. Even Gravity Bow and Lead Blades talk about increases the weapon's damage as if it were a size category larger - base damage is not mentioned. If you could link an FAQ or show where in the rules it states specify that magical augments to "effective" size of a weapon increase a weapon's base damage, it would help.
Close Combat Master specifies that the only affects "base" damage, you still use every other aspect of the weapon. Like, if your shield is made of Cold Iron or Adamantine, you'd still overcome applicable DR, but be using unarmed damage (a level -4) to do so.
Which brings up the question, how does Strong Jaw interact with Close Combat Mastery?
Whatever happened to the OP's other question about the shields ("In an unrelated note, the text for the Shield Champion reads 'can throw a medium or light shield' - does this include a 'medium' sized heavy shield? I could find no entries anywhere for a 'medium' shield, only 'heavy' and 'light'...")? Did I miss an answer in the responses somewhere? My Shield Champion is more than academically interested. ;->
LB
Another question (yep, here I go being a Reanimator Alchemist for this post):
"Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed"; since apparently the Shield Champion does indeed get the benefit of the Close Weapon Mastery feature (as long as it's dealing with shields and any Simple weapons that are in the Close group as well), does Brawler's Flurry with "weapons with the 'monk' special feature" also work for them? I'm guessing yes, but it never hurts to double-check. :)
LB
@Lady Bluehawk, What is a medium shield?
There are only light and heavy shields and you can only wear shields your size if you want to gain AC from them.
Your second question is about whether or not a shield is a monk special weapon?
Heh, sorry; I was quoting from the errata-filled Advanced Class Guide, where they finally pointed out that "medium" should say "heavy." My bad; one shouldn't perpetuate errors. :)
At any rate, my thought was that since Brawlers (and Shield Champions) are considered both Fighters and Monks for many aspects of the class, if the Flurry also counts for monk weapons, then the Brawler and/or Shield Champion might be eligible for monk weapon use. Looking at this since my original question, I'm guessing the answer to that is "no" unless the weapon in question also falls into the Close Weapon Group or Simple categories. It wasn't my intention to imply that shields could be monk weapons (although those dang madus are weird enough...). ;->
LB