arcenierin's page

Rushley... if you're complaining about power gamers, you're in the wrong forum, my friend.

On reading the relevant passages, I think that the intent of the ability is to allow the brawler to use whichever damage value is most beneficial. Also, given the line about not affecting any other aspect of the weapon, I believe the damage comparison and choice is limited to the base weapon damage, before magical effects.

A spiked shield isn't a magical enhancement, but rather a specific type of weapon. It's listed as such on the paizo srd. (http://paizo.com/prd/equipment.html)

So I'd say you could either use the spiked shield damage, or the unarmed strike damage. After choosing your base, you would then apply bashing to increase the damage dice from there.

Absent compelling arguments to the contrary, I'm leaning in that direction as well. I had came to the same conclusion about shield spikes earlier.

If bashing said that it increased the dice on the weapon, that would be one thing...as written, it seems as though it might go either way. The approach of 'increase your unarmed damage dice' seems like it works RAW though.

The problem is that the way things are written, a compelling argument can be made either for or against the ability working with the bashing enhancement.

To be fair, bashing has caused no small number of other debates, historically.

If anything, this discussion has pointed out to me that this particular topic can be fairly divisive!

If anyone wishes to continue to weigh in on this topic, I'd be very glad to hear what they have to say. I'm trying to anticipate what the reactions will be in PFS and want to be as prepared as possible. Any constructive posts are appreciated. Dismissing the topic, threadjacking, or personal attacks...are somewhat less so.

Also, thanks to Rushley and Graystone for making an eloquent case with their explanation of weapon dice mechanics and how they see such mechanics interacting with this class. I found a good deal of last night's discussion to be informative, from a game mechanics sense.

So, wearing a Monk's robe to up my effective unarmed damage should in theory translate to my close weapon mastery, then?

You're reaching for a way to turn a powerful ability into something insane. Don't hide that. You're obviously just a power gamer looking for the next way to do an absurd level of damage.

This isn't it.

The base damage of a weapon is the dice it uses, not other bonus's that come attached.

Spikes and bashing increase the base damage of the shield.

The brawler ability lets them use their base unarmed strike dice with other weapons.

The Shield is already well above that so just leave it alone.

Putting the bashing property aside, then, Using a different weapon totally, just for clarity's sake.

If we were discussing a punching dagger instead of a shield...

I could make my punching dagger a 1d6 weapon out of the gate.

If I then wanted to enchant my dagger to do 1d6 elemental damage on strike, are you saying this should be allowed since the enchantment is added damage, and does not impact the base damage of the weapon?

Not snarking - really trying to follow the logic.

You cannot get a shield to do 4d8 damage. That's what your formula would allow for and it is absurd. Stop trying, just stop. If you want to abuse weird interactions in the game go ahead, but I get the feeling I would hate playing on a table with you.

I try and do my homework before sitting at the table, so my wit and charming personality aren't overpowered by the number of dice hitting the deck at once.

In seriousness, I've seen several proposals voiced for how this goes - some for, some against. I'm reaching out to the greater community specifically because I want to draw upon the combined experience of the board veterans before flying off half cocked because I'm having trouble sussing out how this is supposed to work. I agree, this seems a bit illogical. I also see where this isn't nearly the most broken thing being discussed as the result of the new book dropping. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right - let me say instead that a) I appreciate the feedback, and b) I enjoy the opportunity to learn. I appreciate your taking the time to spell out your position, as well as the underlying logic.

No. He's saying that a size increase alters the base damage of the weapon.

A large short sword is a d8 damage dice, that's it's base damage. It's not an upgrade from a d6, it's just a d8, period.

So while spikes and bash increase the damage they do so as if it were the base damage. That they are upgrades is less important than the type of upgrade they provide. This isn't an argument, this is how it works.

The base damage becomes 2d6, well above the brawlers unarmed strike damage and so that ability doesn't apply. That's already a pretty huge damage boost, don't be greedy.

Your posts are actually a little confusing, i'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say, or rather how you're trying to get there.

Greater magic fang doesn't increase your base damage. It increases it through enchantments. That's the base damage.

Thank you for clarifying your position.

The bashing enhancement says, "deals damage as if it were a bashing weapon of two size categories larger". Your position is that this is considered an upgrade on the base dice of the weapon, rather than an upgrade provided by the enchantment?

I mentioned magic fang as an off the top of my head example - it may have been a bit imperfect.
I was reaching for a method of enhancing the damage on an unarmed strike, for comparison's sake.

Close Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 5th level, a brawler’s

damage with close weapons increases. When wielding a
close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a
brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that
weapon (for example, a 5th-level Medium brawler wielding a
punching dagger deals 1d6 points of damage instead of the
weapon’s normal 1d4). If the weapon normally deals more
damage than this, its damage is unchanged. This ability
does not affect any other aspect of the weapon. The brawler
can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of her
adjusted unarmed strike damage—this must be declared
before the attack roll is made.

Why are you ignoring this sentence in the middle of the text

If I understand what you are proposing, the base weapon damage (1d4) is replaced by the brawler's base damage (1d6). This does not affect any other aspect of the weapon (enchantments, spikes, etc.). The base dmg of the weapon is replaced. Your bolded text kicks in, stating that the new base damage does not effectively override any other enhancements on the weapon. Once the weapon dice are modified, stuff like bashing (in the case of a shield) kicks in, turbocharging the damage level.

Is this the case you are making?

I'm going with all those enhancements as altering the weapons damage. Nothing leads me to believe that those enhancements alter your unarmed damage. All they do is increase your weapons size.

Now do this with another weapon. Take a dagger. You up it's size from medium to huge, wield it in both hands and take it's damage to 1d8 would this alter your unarmed damage in any way? Nope Same with the shield.

Changing the size is shifting the base damage to a larger size. You need an effect that sifts your size to affect unarmed attacks.

Ah. I think I see where you are coming from.

If I'm reading you correctly, you propose that the 'unarmed' damage completely overrides the enhancements on the weapon - you can have weapon enhancements apply to the 'weapon' damage, or you can use your unarmed damage, but you cant use your unarmed damage as the 'base' damage for the weapon before weapon upgrades are applied - is that your argument?

Interesting. To take this a step further - say you had greater magic fang or something on you that somehow enhanced your base unarmed damage. Are you then suggesting that that unarmed enhancement should translate into the damage calculation used by the brawler's ability?

I'm trying to follow you here. I don't know that I agree with your approach, but I'd like to make sure I understand what you are trying to convey before I continue.

JoeJ wrote:

Whisperknives wrote:

Am I the only person picturing Barbarians running around Superman Punching things to death in one hit?

It can't be to death; Superman doesn't kill (except that one time).

I finally have a reason to make a barbarisn for PFS and I'm going to name him Roman Reigns.

snicker - I'm making Ambrose (brawler) for Friday night's PFS session...

Actually, after re-reading the related text...

Assume I am using a normal heavy shield...

Base damage of 1d4.

Spiked shield makes it 1d6.

Bashing enhancement makes it 1d8 then 2d6.

In this scenario, a 1d4 base weapon is 'effectively' enhanced to 2d6. 1d4 is the BASE damage of the weapon, before enhancements. This assertion is based around the idea that the RAW references the 'damage' of the weapon.

I read the brawler's ability as upping the base damage of the weapon to 1d6/1d8/1d10/insanity. The brawler can choose whether to use the shield as a 1d4 base weapon or a 1d6 base weapon. All subsequent enhancements are added on top of the base.

Another, slightly less absurd interpretation is that a spiked shield is considered its own classification of weapon - i.e. the spikes are not considered a multiplier in and of themselves. In this case, the weapon base damage, as calculated by brawler levels, is only subjected to two levels of enhancement via the bashing enhancement. Still absurd, but slightly less so.

Discuss?

This may be somewhat common sensical, but here goes...

Close weapon mastery states that I may use my unarmed dmg instead of my close weapons base damage. It also says I don't get this bonus if my weapon hits harder than the damage this grants.

If I use a shield with the bashing enchantment, the shield counts as two sizes larger. This bonus kicks in on top of my weapon's base damage, and is based off it accordingly.

I figure the rules as intended mean I shouldn't be able to up the base dmg of my shield, then step it up twice again with bashing. With that said, bashing doesn't impact the base damage of my weapon, it impacts the end damage. I think a case can be made either way.

Thus, I put this question before my peers.

In an unrelated note, the text for the Shield Champion reads 'can throw a medium or light shield' - does this include a 'medium' sized heavy shield? I could find no entries anywhere for a 'medium' shield, only 'heavy' and 'light'...