With 7 str, the wizard will probably have under 23lb to stay under a medium load. Lets assume a little bit of room and make it 20lb.
20lb max heavy load is at 2 strength
Only able to move 5ft as a full round action at 1 strength
Even in the worst case, Ray of Enfeeblement is probably only going to immobilize and knock off a few points of AC. It isn't that crippling, considering that the attacker(s) would need multiple castings. Given the amount of times an attacker would need to cast and land it, they are better off with a Save or Lose.
Oh, and by level 10 the difference between the Wizard's Fort and Will progression is 4 points. Unless the wizard hard dumps wisdom or has a really high constitution, Feeblemind is only going to have a slightly better chance of landing than Baleful Polymorph, which is a far more flexible spell (since it wrecks almost anything that isn't a psychic or SLA caster).
To be fair I'm not the GM suffering from game breaking arcane, though I witness it constantly as my aforementioned flame oracle. Though lots of strength damage does happen in game...through blood money...that I have to clean up...a lot!
But ray of enfeeblement is level 2.
A wizard needs good Con. They thus tend to have a somewhat decent Fort save, even with a poor base save. With the feeblemind penalty, a wizard is on equal level if they have the same con and wis modifiers.
Alright, lemme rephrase. The average heroic NPC has a point buy of 15. And how is it not the same as a PC dumping?So I have a question, what do anti-stat dumpers feel about NPCs with dump stats? Given your average NPC has a 15 point buy...you get where Im going.If you go directly by the book they use a stat array. The NPC's with PC classes get the better of the two arrays.
I do think that something like "they are not PC's, so it's not the same" would be their line of reasoning if they actually use point buy for NPC's.
I will assume they will default to the same thing they told me when I brought up rolling and doing the same thing with the lowest rolled score. Basically trading in points from one ability score to get better somewhere else is the issue. It is the way it is done that many don't like.
Here is the quote I got from the previous conversation.
....The issue is that if someone drops the score that is low into the attribute they dont care about, people complain, but if someone rolls a low score and puts it into the same stat it is supposed to be ok.......
Because there is a difference between choosing to take a really low attribute in a dump stat in order to get a really high one and someone who gets stuck with a low stat and chooses to stick it in the place it will hurt the least.
A ten is not dumped no matter how often you try to expand the definition to include it.15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is a long way from 18, 14, 7, 7, 7, 7 or whatever a properly dumped wizard ends up with....why would you even suggest that?! That's two defensive stats you are hard dumping, at least! Just...ow, that's eye burn.
A properly dumped wizard would hard dump STR and CHA to 7 which are useless unless you use charm spells or are going the EK route, and they would soft dump wis to 10 or maybe 8 if they're feeling ballsy. After that the point amount would be thrown to INT, DEX, and CON, which are kinda important to wizards.
So your average NPC has one less dumped stat than your average optimized SAD caster, though they only soft dump rather than hard dump. So what your reasoning for not punishing them as well?
What makes you the arbiter of whether or not a 10 is dumped?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Generally speaking, it is not considered dumped until you can get points in return for it, which basically makes dump stats those below 10. There is no official definition of a dump stat, but that is how it is commonly discussed here.
Frankly I think everyone has adopted there own tricks house rules and personal ways of doing things that work for there game and who is to say their way is wrong at something so abstract as a table top rpg. oh sorry i'm interrupting the argument *bad llama bad* carry on
As said above - common useage.
I have seen quite a few people in PFS describe 10 Constitution as dumped. Does that not count for anything?
Its expanding the defnition until its practically useless.
I would not describe calling 10 Constitution on a front line rogue as dumping constitution "practically useless". I find that it conveys quite a lot of useful information, both about the subject of the label and the speaker.
As said above - common useage.I have seen quite a few people in PFS describe 10 Constitution as dumped. Does that not count for anything?
it would certainly feel that way I guess you could take toughness and great fort to somewhat compensate?
Analysis (tl:dr stats man they do things.)
what other use could str have? and still whats wrong with the skinny book worm being bad at athletics and talking to people or the fighter being dumb? well i decided i don't mind stat dumping although i think 7 might be asking for it low point build seems more like forcing characters to be more one dimensional.
As said above - common useage.I have seen quite a few people in PFS describe 10 Constitution as dumped. Does that not count for anything?
That's pretty bad in pfs because you may have to play up at some point, and something can AOE you dead rather easily. If you're a second level rogue and your other players are a level 4 cleric level 5 fighter and a level level 5 wizard you'll be fighting level 7 monsters all night. 8 more hitpoints before you die makes a big difference.
As said above - common useage.I have seen quite a few people in PFS describe 10 Constitution as dumped. Does that not count for anything?
Not really. As an example if a group of people have a certain usage of the word "Kasot", and someone else tries to come in and use their version the new definition is not going to go over well. In the forums we have an unwritten agreement as to what dumping is. And communication is a lot easier if everyone uses the same definition for a word, so it is counter-intuitive to not use the same definition.
PS: Kasot is a word I made up.
I'm playing an Inquisitor now as well, and respectfully I must disagree. Dex is critically important; Inquisitors can't wear heavy armor, and they need it for many skills including Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics, etc. Wisdom is critically important, Strength is critically important (for a melee build), and you need bonuses in Con and Int. Cha is the only stat you can safely ignore.
Monk is pretty much the same way.
Compare that to a Wizard, they need one stat; Int. Definitely unequal.
Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics? Are you trying to take the niche of the rogue?
Wis you only need enough to be able to cast spells, so a 13 gets you to 3rd level, and my build gives you enough wis to cast every spell a Inquisitor can get.
My Build has a str of 18.
Everyone needs Bonuses to Con. a 12 int is fine.
Wizards need decent Con & Dex, too, at least as much as a Inquisitor.
So I have a question, what do anti-stat dumpers feel about NPCs with dump stats? Given your average NPC has a 15 point buy...you get where Im going.
"Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), while creatures with character class levels have the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8);"
Yes, NPCs have one eight, sometimes a nine also. A tiny bit of dumping there. Peasants are different from adventurers.
So I have a question, what do anti-stat dumpers feel about NPCs with dump stats? Given your average NPC has a 15 point buy...you get where Im going.well, diplomacy is ineffective against npcs, so...
No it's not.
I think that a GM who objects to players who routinely put the minimum possible value into certain stats (with charisma 7 being the most common choice) is basically saying, "I am not ever going to do anything that challenges your character's charisma, but I am going to be upset if you don't put points into it anyway." It is up to the GM to run things in a manner that makes such decisions hard choices.
I'm playing an Inquisitor now as well, and respectfully I must disagree. Dex is critically important; Inquisitors can't wear heavy armor, and they need it for many skills including Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics, etc. Wisdom is critically important, Strength is critically important (for a melee build), and you need bonuses in Con and Int. Cha is the only stat you can safely ignore.
Monk is pretty much the same way.
Compare that to a Wizard, they need one stat; Int. Definitely unequal.
Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics? Are you trying to take the niche of the rogue?
Wis you only need enough to be able to cast spells, so a 13 gets you to 3rd level, and my build gives you enough wis to cast every spell a Inquisitor can get.
My Build has a str of 18.
Everyone needs Bonuses to Con. a 12 int is fine.
Wizards need decent Con & Dex, too, at least as much as a Inquisitor.
Not to derail this thread, but alot of times the Inquisitor has to fill the rogue role, so Dex becomes very important. Same with Wisdom, you need it not just for spells, but Perception, Survival, Sense Motive, etc.
Any skill monkey type class has to spread their stats much thinner than a full caster or heavily armored martial. If I want to be successful doing all the things a skill monkey is expected to do, Charisma is getting dumped.
Unless you have a class feature that uses it, a headband of charisma for 4.5 k is like buying a +6 stat boosting item for 36,000 gp, because they'll do the same for your skills.
Not to derail this thread, but alot of times the Inquisitor has to fill the rogue role...Why do you feel this way?
Because sometimes no one feels like playing a Rogue but someone does feel like playing an Inquisitor?
You either invest, or you dump. I refuse to call +0 investing, so it falls into the dumping category. Stop trying to make it more complex than that by giving +0 its own special snowflake category, we already have to distinguish between hard dumping and soft dumping at times.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I guess I don't understand what role the character is being pidgeonholed into.
I shouldn't limit this to Inquisitor, but basically any 6 skill point/lvl class: Ranger, Hunter, Slayer, Bard, etc. What ends up happening in alot of groups is nobody plays a Rogue cause they, you know, suck. So, they ask the other skill guy to pick up the slack: scouting, disarming traps, all that stuff. So, you end up needing every single stat so you can do everything the group asks you to do. You get spread pretty thin.
I'm in a group where everyone else is playing 2 skill pt/lvl, so guess who does all the skill stuff?
Shouldn't a mage be disarming traps? I mean that's what Summon Monster I is for in the later levels.
You either invest, or you dump. I refuse to call +0 investing, so it falls into the dumping category. Stop trying to make it more complex than that by giving +0 its own special snowflake category, we already have to distinguish between hard dumping and soft dumping at times.
lolwut
You either invest, or you dump. I refuse to call +0 investing, so it falls into the dumping category. Stop trying to make it more complex than that by giving +0 its own special snowflake category, we already have to distinguish between hard dumping and soft dumping at times.lolwut
Apparently I have to explain everything in depth.
Stats come into two categories. Invested and dumped.
The invested category gets its name from the fact that you have to invest your points from point buy to have a stat get into that catagory, you need 2 points for a +1, 5 points for a +2, etc.
By limiting the system to a two category system everything that is not invested goes into the other category, which in this case is dumped. A more proper name for it would be not-invested, but dumped is easier to roll off the tongue so it gets that name.
Is anyone still confused about this very simple system?
It was never confusing, Hyper, just not accepted. It certainly doesn't accord with my understanding of dumped.
Alright, alright. we'll play by your system (weird as it is.) 10 is no longer dumping...now let me ask you this.
I have an Empiricist Investigator who dips one level into Inspired Blade Swashbuckler, and I'm on a 10 point buy. What reason do I have to not go 9, 14, 14, 15, 8, 7 for my stat array (the +2 goes into dex here.)
The way I see it, there's only one weakness this combo with this stat array has that it cannot patch up with its abilities or spells, and even then it has a way to soften the blow, but I'll wait for your responses. Maybe I missed something in there.
Optimization doesn't make you worse at roleplaying...okay maybe it makes you suck at roleplaying, but for me it makes me better.
Or at the very least my optimized characters I make now have more interesting stories and personalities than the unoptimized characters I made when I started playing.
|
MY only problem, so to speak, with dumping is the mindset that anything which is not absolutely as high as possible is worthless.
Yeah, I don't truck with that either. I prefer to keep all my scores above 10 for unfortunate encounters with stat damaging monsters. (I crit an 8 Str Witch for 8 points of Str damage from a shadow. The party was less than amused.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not to derail this thread, but alot of times the Inquisitor has to fill the rogue role, so Dex becomes very important. Same with Wisdom, you need it not just for spells, but Perception, Survival, Sense Motive, etc.Any skill monkey type class has to spread their stats much thinner than a full caster or heavily armored martial. If I want to be successful doing all the things a skill monkey is expected to do, Charisma is getting dumped.
If you are making your Inquisitor fill both the tank and skill monkey riches, then sure, he's gonna need a lot of good stats.
Make your wizard a gish who will fill both the warrior and spellslinger roles and you know what...?
Clerics who have to fulfill tank and divine spellcaster/healer roles have to have good stats in many abilities.
Filling any two niches- need five decent abilities, in general.
Shouldn't a mage be disarming traps? I mean that's what Summon Monster I is for in the later levels.
How does that disarm a trap on the locked door? or on a chest? Or a teleport trap?
I mean sure if the trap is a pit trap in a corridor and the ranger spotted it, sure, send in the pony.
Stats come into two categories. Invested and dumped.
By limiting the system to a two category system everything that is not invested goes into the other category, which in this case is dumped. A more proper name for it would be not-invested, but dumped is easier to roll off the tongue so it gets that name.
Is anyone still confused about this very simple system?
No, but those are YOUR terms. Not unreasonable, but you will have to explain them every time, like Humpty Dumpty.