So in doing some world building, I'm trying to think of a good reason why the gods and goddesses of the setting wouldn't interfere with the universe. I'm looking for something else besides a pact of non-interference or an overdeity that prevents them from interfering. Some reason why an evil god doesn't destroy good worlds, or a good god doesn't smite evil themselves. Any suggestions?
Other gods? Internal strife? Maybe they simply don't know? While near-omniscience is implied, it's never outright stated, so it's entirely possible that the gods are not aware of the multitude of evils at hand in the various Material Plane worlds and beyond.
The evil gods outnumber them.
The gods of good are weak, spineless, ineffectual gods.
They have more pressing issues than a minor blight of evil on some podunk backwater planet.
I should probably reword the original post. I really meant for any god, good or evil. Good reasons why an evil god doesn't just crush a planet, or a good god doesn't smite all evil.
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They are dealing with things of a scope we can't even comprehend.
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Gods can't be killed because they reside outside of the bounds of reality and thus aren't subject to the normal mortal limitations that reality imposes. They can subtly influence the world, but dare not enter it; if they do, they are suddenly subject to mortal limitations and thus can be killed.
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Doesn't have to be anything we can't comprehend. Think COLD WAR. US and Soviet Union only overtly sent troops into a few places, often with disastrous results to themselves, and did not dare to engage each other for fear of mutual assured destruction. They more commonly used behind-the-scenes puppet-string pulling, again often with disastrous results, but with more of the disastrous results being upon somebody else.
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Doesn't have to be anything we can't comprehend. Think COLD WAR. US and Soviet Union only overtly sent troops into a few places, often with disastrous results to themselves, and did not dare to engage each other for fear of mutual assured destruction. They more commonly used behind-the-scenes puppet-string pulling, again often with disastrous results, but with more of the disastrous results being upon somebody else.
If Lovecraft has taught me anything, comprehension makes things less cool.
So in doing some world building, I'm trying to think of a good reason why the gods and goddesses of the setting wouldn't interfere with the universe. I'm looking for something else besides a pact of non-interference or an overdeity that prevents them from interfering. Some reason why an evil god doesn't destroy good worlds, or a good god doesn't smite evil themselves. Any suggestions?
I think the one that makes the most sense is not so much a formal pact of non-interference, but more a general knowledge that directly interfering is akin to the nuclear option (i.e. triggers Mutually Assured Destruction). The gods are in a perpetual Cold War. Nobody wants to make it go hot by interfering in the mortal realm directly.
The gods of Good, Evil, and Neutrality are all generally as powerful as each other. They're the superpowers of Godland, and any threat of direct conflict bodes poorly for the individuals that start it, and everyone else they drag in afterward.
Also gives you a bit more free reign to have the demi-gods take a more active role if you prefer, them being akin to big fish in a small pond, powerful enough to affect the world to an extent but not powerful enough that a conflict between any or all of them would be a threat to the greater cosmos (though, of course, the poor puny mortals caught in the crossfire might not appreciate that distinction).
I find that incomprehensible motives only really work for gods that don't have any real connection to humanity or morality. If a god has a comprehensible church, orders of inquisitors and whatnot, it's expected that the god has a set of instructions understood by its followers.
Otherwise, 'it's incomprehensible' is just a cop out to avoid answering a legitimate theological question.
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You could take a page from the real world. We all "know" that whatever gods exist don't really intervene openly. If god is truly benevolent and omnipotent, why does he allow evil things to happen to good people?
We don't KNOW why. It's one of the typical hard questions in theology. Most lay people don't know any satisfying answers. Theologians may have some theories, but it's all very hard.
So there are some ideas around - "it would destroy free will", "suffer now to earn a better place in the afterlife" and so forth.
Maybe it's like that in the campaign world too? It's well-known that direct intervention doesn't happen. It's not known WHY. There are quite a few theories, but not enough proof to settle the answer. And divination spells give confusing answers. (Maybe the answers seem clear enough from a divine viewpoint, but they're too profound for mortals to comprehend.)
I find that incomprehensible motives only really work for gods that don't have any real connection to humanity or morality. If a god has a comprehensible church, orders of inquisitors and whatnot, it's expected that the god has a set of instructions understood by its followers.
Otherwise, 'it's incomprehensible' is just a cop out to avoid answering a legitimate theological question.
Yeah, that's my thoughts on it. If they have enough of a connection to provide clerics their powers, then it does beg the question on why they don't do more.
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In one of my settings, nobody knows for sure but theologians have competing theories:
1. The gods were clearly vastly more active in the dawn of the world, and it is known that there is at least one binding pact between all of the gods that even they can't break. Perhaps they have built up more and more pacts between each other over the millenia, such that their ability to act directly has been severely limited.
2. Or, that they are not so bound by laws as they are by the limits of their own powers. They spent their energies frivolously in the dawn of time, but came to realise their powers were finite and had to be conserved as much as possible. Under this theory, spellcasting priests are a 'force multiplier'; a god can get more effect from the same amount of divine energy by passing it through a mortal servant.
3. There was another one but I forget what it was.
The idea that the gods are infinite is considered nonsense in this world.
Number one is definitely a common one but I do like that. Number two is interesting. A good take on the "gods needs worshipers" trope. One I had considered was based a bit on Gnosticism. Each God in the world is merely a simulacrum of an overdeity created by a demiurge. So each deity can't really overstep it's boundaries because it simply cannot exert its will over that overdeity's creation. Of course, then why wouldn't the overdeity step in... *shrug*
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How about this:
The gods are fighting constantly across every plane. Far away galaxies are giant battlefields where the gods and their more powerful followers duke it out, while the world of your campaign is relatively quiet.
The gods are too busy to interfere with the world because it's not important in the grand scheme of things, because it's not part of a major front and it doesn't have an abundance of resources that could swing a divine battle.
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A possible explanation is that maybe they're too powerful, their mere presence on the material plane would damage reality. Without even meaning to they would cause floods and earthquakes and fire raining from the skies. So the only way they can influence events without destroying the world is through their followers, which gives a good reason for them to bother with followers in the first place.
A possible explanation is that maybe they're too powerful, their mere presence on the material plane would damage reality. Without even meaning to they would cause floods and earthquakes and fire raining from the skies. So the only way they can influence events without destroying the world is through their followers, which gives a good reason for them to bother with followers in the first place.
The problem with that is that it doesn't explain why the EVIL gods aren't interfering.
Another option is that the world itself is within a god and he/she/it cannot reach inside oneself and he/she/it won't let the other gods interfere within, or maybe other gods are divinely squeamish and won't do this because *yuck*!
Or the world itself is impure and it would stain divine purity?
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So in doing some world building, I'm trying to think of a good reason why the gods and goddesses of the setting wouldn't interfere with the universe. I'm looking for something else besides a pact of non-interference or an overdeity that prevents them from interfering. Some reason why an evil god doesn't destroy good worlds, or a good god doesn't smite evil themselves. Any suggestions?
While similar to an overdeity, one consideration might be that there's something in this universe that the gods fear. Something they once put to sleep, or imprisoned. Because of this, they are very worried that full on interference might make enough noise to wake this thing, which would be bad.
This thing could be an elemental force or the awareness of the universe itself. Something so powerful that it eats gods for breakfast. Hell, waking it may have absolutely no repercussions for the mortals in the universe, but for the gods themselves, it could be their very end.
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From a couple of favorite books:
(The War God's Own, by David Weber)
The gods watch over many, many worlds, not just one. Those worlds aren't all in the same universe - the good vs. evil gods may be battling for supremacy over one another across many alternate versions of the same world. So their attention is divided. And if they act too directly, it can cause that entire universe/version of reality to splinter and collapse. Even the evil gods don't want that to happen, as it destroys their stuff. (It might even damage them to directly cause that sort of damage to a reality.) Therefore, the gods are limited to working through intermediaries (priest, paladins), and occasionally sending greater servants (heralds) to perform specific tasks.
(The Curse of Chalion, by Lois McMaster Bujold)
The gods don't exist as physical beings of this world - they're beyond mortality. From their perspective, the sufferings of mortals are seen differently. Horrible suffering that leads to death just means the soul passes on to its reward. Suffering in life is transient. Thus, although the good gods may be saddened by evil in all its forms, they take some of those forms of evil less seriously. They take a long view. They simply don't see the urgency required to intervene in many things that seem horrible to transient mortals. And when mortals move on to their reward, they can gain this longer perspective. The ills of mortality will no longer weigh on them.
Or for an idea of my own:
The gods are like parents. Not modern helicopter parents, constantly swooping in to fix every little inconvenience for their children. But busy adults with their own concerns, and with a desire for their children (i.e. mortals) to grow up strong. They want mortals to choose their own paths, learn from their mistakes, and make their own decisions. Only then can they grow. So mortals are left to the consequences of their actions, even when those consequences sadden the gods. Prayer may help one to bear one's burdens - it shouldn't be expected to make those burdens vanish. (Even clerics with powerful spells don't "win the adventure path" with a prayer and a spell - they gain help against the foes they face, so they can choose to go on to face fiercer foes.)
The Gods can only truly connect with the mortal world once every ten million years (or whatever huge number you wanna use). During these times, the Gods shaped the world, created champions of legend, etc. But in between these times, the most they can influence the world is by granting Clerics holy powers, or speaking to a spell caster who used Commune, etc.
Alternatively, the gods aren't "real" to begin with. They are concepts which are imbued with and store power from their worshipers (thought-forms). While their worshipers are able to draw energy off of these due to the belief of so many, any stories and legends regarding their actions are largely fictions or propaganda from the church as a result of good writing or visions granted by hallucinogenic materials. Mortals may believe, fanatically, but it doesn't make them any more sentient, independent entities than a rock.
When one "communes" with their deity, it's more akin to communing with an akashic record and not some all powerful divine being.
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Think of it in cold war terms. The gods are the USA and Russia brimming with enough "nuclear weapons" to totally obliterate everything. There is no pact, no ceasefire, just the understanding that actual full all out war is nothing but mutually assured destruction of everything.
So in that scenario prime material worlds are the Korea's, Vietnam's and Cuba's of the multiverse. Places where the gods fight by proxy through agents and followers.
So in short Gods don't directly interfere because that would cause a cataclysm which would destroy everything including themselves.
they're too busy killing each other to care about what is happening down on the material plane.
Why would evil gods want to destroy worlds? That's where they keep all of their stuff.
If the gods live on a different plane, just limit their powers when on your prime plane. Maybe make the gods only killable while on the prime plane, so they are all too afraid to come down there and do much.
Alternatively, just tie their power to the world itself, so if the world takes damage, so do they. If an army is killed a god wouldn't feel it, but if an entire race were wiped out all of the gods would be diminished.
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It's because the gods percieve time in a different way. It may seem that the gods don't interact, but in fact they do. It's just that the human lifespan is so incredibly short compared to the lifespan of a god that we percieve them as inactive, while in fact, we're just lucky the gods are taking a breather. In fact, it's over now. It seems that Rovagug just escaped from his prison.
Thanks for the idea, I'll add this to the ideas-I'm-never-gonna-work-out-pile.
There are a lot of ways this can happen, limited only by your imagination and any constraints already placed on the mythology. A few possibilities off the top of my head:
1. Long ago, the gods created the universe in its original state. They then left, perhaps to create other universes, perhaps to avoid interfering with mortal autonomy, perhaps some other reason. Maybe they even died out. However, they left behind a sort of residue of themselves, and this is what people (probably unknowingly) worship. These "shadow gods" don't actually have the capability to influence the world on their own, but a god's worshipers can tap into that essence and manifest the god's persona in their minds, communicate with it, and draw divine power from it.
2. The gods can interact with the material plane directly, but they choose not to because doing so doesn't achieve their ends. A good god may choose not to smite evil because it wants mortals to choose to be good without constant handholding; an evil god, similarly, may prefer to corrupt rather than simply destroy because corrupting mortals better realizes its goals. The ultimate goals may be ineffable, or they may be very simple. (I rather liked Xanth's approach to this:)
In a D&D-ized version of this, a god's apparent persona may simply be the persona that serves to best maximize its expression. Not that this ever needs to be apparent to the PCs--it's a game on a level beyond mortals.
3. The gods are essentially in a state of equilibrium--no god can act directly without being opposed by an equal force from one or more other gods, canceling its effects. This isn't a pact of mutually-assured destruction so much as a physics state--a god that moves to destroy the world will be countered by an equal act of creation or stability that effectively nullifies the attempt. (Whether this reaction actually saves the world from destruction or merely results in the creation of a new world that the god would also want to destroy is a matter that is only important to mortals....) Life--especially sentient life--does not exist in this equilibrium state, so beings that channel the power of these gods can further the gods ends without any guaranteed repercussions. Thus, the gods use agents to further their ends--not because they are ineffectual, but because they are all equally omnipotent. A change in this equilibrium would likely be a catastrophic event, and a campaign could revolve around the concept of preventing or correcting such a loss of equilibrium before the universe is destroyed (or worse).
These are all really good ideas. Some I've seen before (Cold War, MAD pact) and some that are really new. Jut woke up, but once I get the sand outta my eyes, I'd love to chime in.
They play the long game. They charge out now and commit everything they have, they will expose themselves to their enemies and weaken themselves in the long run. Instead, they give a blessing here, a vision there, and they move their pieces into play to tip things towards their interests.
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To come back on my previous post: They've waged war against each other for eons, thereby creating the material plane and the inner and outer planes. They're just taking a breather. (For the past 10000 years or so.)
Or: This only works for a monotheistic LG deity. Free will. Interfering with the free will of people would be a non-lawful non-good act and therefore impossible for a LG deity.
Or something like that.
(I rather liked Xanth's approach to this:)
** spoiler omitted **...
... I practically grew up on that books and I never caught why they wrote their names like that. I just thought it was Anthony being Anthony.
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Aliette de Bodard's excellent Obsidian & Blood series has at least part of the reason the Aztecs are sacrificing people so often is to keep a number of destructive gods so intoxicated with blood that they won't wreck the world. Not something that would fit too well in a normal Pathfinder game, but I could see it working in some settings.
Funnily enough, my setting is in the New World. I could nab that one :)
Aliette de Bodard's excellent Obsidian & Blood series has at least part of the reason the Aztecs are sacrificing people so often is to keep a number of destructive gods so intoxicated with blood that they won't wreck the world. Not something that would fit too well in a normal Pathfinder game, but I could see it working in some settings.
but Aztec mythology already has it where they're sacrificing people to keep the world from being destroyed by gods...
they believe that they lived in the fifth world and the first 4 all got destroyed because they were doing something that dishonored the gods. Each world had a different god that created it, and the fifth world was created by a demigod who I think was based on vampire bats. and by created by i mean they ritually sacrificed him.
i can't remember exactly what happened in the other worlds but they were punished in the same way they did something wrong. the fourth world is believed to have committed cannibalism and so the gods sent down jaguars to eat everyone.
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Also, in Golarion, doesn't the (possibly overly ambitiously named) "Contract of Creation" drawn up by Asmodeus and signed by the major deities of the time forbid direct interference, with at least an implied threat that freaking the contract will release Rovagug?
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One of my favorite theories of why Gods don't interfere in the mortal world comes from 4e.
The idea is, the early wars that the Gods fought were so destructive, spirits born from the world itself arose and forced the warring Gods off of the material plane. The Gods literally can't go back to the world, or the spirits will force them off again.
there's also the no game no life approach, where the gods all basically killed each other, and the only god left over wants to see competition and people overcoming hardships.
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Ripped from one of my settings:
Deities require mortal acknowledgment to stay alive. Yes, deities are alive, but in a much more flexible way than the living can understand. Undead briefly understand it following creation or restoration via their creators. Outsiders instinctively recognize it by in their footsteps before finding a comfortable place to stop.
Mass worship means little outside of bragging rights. Portfolio control offers nothing other than a constant mental nagging--chronic headaches for some. Ascending to godhood can be likened to be trapped underwater with only a few straws to breathe through. Oh, yes, they're trapped; and the worst thing is, only they know why.
Every god and goddess was once mortal--all of them, no exceptions. Each one made the same journey: ascension, hubris, recollection, revelation, and then an eternal conflict.
Ascension is when a mortal makes the decision to shed their physical shell and heed the siren call. It doesn't matter what certain condition presented ascension as an option--they accepted, that's all that matters.
Hubris occurs when a deity believes themselves greater than their elders. They wage war, attempt romance, engage in subterfuge, and direct their follows on the Prime to do the same. However, nothing changes; their peers persist and no effort seems to alter a thing.
Recollection follows once a deity finishes flexing their divine muscles and remembers their mortality. What challenges there were! What excitement! And then they look back onto the world they left--really have a look and not just mentally tune into their supplicants' prayers and sins.
Revelation begins when the deity realizes what they've left behind and what little they've gained. They decide to reach out and--wait, what's that? There's something out here...between them and the Prime. Something different. It's blocking the way and it almost hurts to touch it...pain...that's an old feeling. It doesn't pursue, though, it merely exists. It's funny how the deity didn't see this before. The other deities seem to notice it too--one of them is even fighting it. Then they're gone.
And with the final step of their journey in sight, the deities hide themselves away and wait until their mad enough to face something stronger and unknown. Trapped in the cosmos, the gods wait, sipping greedily at the meager bit of power flowing their way, and pray.
What if the Clerics are the gods? Like, let's say that a god is a divine being who's magic gives them dominion over some aspect of the world. Let's also say that gods are numerous. A city of millions could have a dozen or so gods. These gods all want to do their thing, but people being people, s+$+ happens, especially because power corrupts. I don't use alignment, but I would imagine altruistic gods may actually be outnumbered do to that factor. Each god is individually not that strong, but collectively they can raise some major Hell.
Even better, perhaps Clerics are monks on the path to godhood, but have not actually achieved it yet. When they reach high level/sufficient epic tier, they will do so. The vast majority never reach godhood, however.
The Gods are imprisoned. The only means they have for influencing the world is to work through agents such as clerics and oracles, sending prophetic dreams etc... They desperately need heroes powerful enough to defeat whatever it was that imprissoned them and set them free.
They promise to turn the world into a golden paradise is some mortal can release them.
of course leaving the question who imprisoned them and why
Maybe a great disaster occurred the last time the gods interfered, and they don't want to repeat the disaster? They're so serious about this, that they collectively murder any god that opposes this. A great many scholars spend their lifetime finding out what this grave mistake was. Perhaps a planet exploded. Perhaps they gave birth to a sentient planet that ended up causing a lot of problems. Maybe the material plane was ripped asunder and what remains of it are disconnected yet stable bubbles scattered throughout the Astral Plane. Maybe something much more mindblowing and surreal.
Maybe the Material Plane was completely destroyed. The gods managed to save Golerion and perhaps even the solar system. However, all other star systems no longer exist. The gods placed a powerful illusion on Golerion to fool mortals into believing the universe still exists. While they slowly try to rebuild the Material Plane, the gods made a pact that none of them would directly interfere with the surviving planet, because the last remaining mortal worshipers inhabit this tiny rock.
This suggestion came inspired by a campaign that recently ended. My GM caused a TPK because a good-aligned abruptly intervened and accidentally put the party in a scenario where either everyone dies or the Big Bad becomes a demigoddess and takes over the world.
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The approach to my home CS is as follows:
The thousands of planets across the galaxy share many of the same gods. They are not omnipresent, definitely not omniscient, and barely omni-aware of their worshipers (per the Deities and Demigods explanation that they can ping their worshipers and what not). Unless their galactic portfolio of planets is quite small (Solus is only worshipped Tor and a few other planets, Xortia only on 2 with a dozen or so followers crash landed on Golarion so like 2.01 planets), the gods have a lot to do to satisfy worshipers, tend to their realms, and outwit the other gods who are trying to steal their power.
Gods can die, and in fact history and the astral plane are littered with the corpses of divinities who have fallen to each other or to the Elder or Lesser Titans and their god-killing weaponry. Give your enemies an opening, and you find yourself surrounded by Balors wielding balor whips crafted from godshards and a round later you've expelled your crystalline god essence all over where ever you just died.
Deities have to pick and choose when, if ever, to leave their realm. Heralds are a dime a dozen, and at Greater Planar Ally HD, they can solo 80% of your problematic business on the material plane when your mortal worshipers can't handle it themselves.
Gods send their worshipers dreams, visions, and divine servitors to guide them, inspire quests, and even warn of pending alignment changes. The fact that the gods don't have the omnipresence other settings divinities do actually *requires* that they employ their underlings in the management of their divine gifts.
Before my mythic game went on hiatus, they were visited by Solus himself. The PC's had been stirring an ancient pot when they were questing to forge a Godsbane (one of the Titan's god killing weapons), and after a conclave of deities good and evil convened, the Sun God appeared before the party to depart knowledge, warnings, and the tacit support of the pantheon in their quest. Had these been any normal 9th level characters, this wouldn't even have caused a blip on the divine's radar, hell even 19th level characters wouldn't be much of a concern, but the mythic deeds the party had accomplished pulled them into the divine forefront, getting gods who are to vulnerable and too busy to worry about specific things on a planet they oversee to actually decide to convene and not outright kill a god who's outside his divine realm.