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Inspired by another thread posted today. I'm a bit enamored with the idea of playing with no casters... Pathfinder certainly works with the assumption that you're going to have at least one 9 level caster in your party, but I think it would be possible to do with the right builds. This is mainly a thought experiment, I doubt I'd be able to put this party in a campaign.
Here's my current ideas:
Fetchling Paladin
The Paladin is an obviously necessary member of the team. I'm picking the Fetchling race mainly because the ability to grant Barb buddy Displacement at 9th level is probably better than extra HP from Lay On Hands but I might be convinced otherwise. I'd likely have him up front with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon to capitalize on that dex boost. I almost want to make him the Divine Defender archetype because any buff is a good buff for this team but the range limitations are just too much.
Oni-Spawn Tiefling Barbarian [Invulnerable Rager]
Pretty typical AM SMASH build for this gal. Alter Self is a nice extra boost to strength, other than that you can just Greater Beast Totem your way to the front lines.
Garuda-Blooded Aasimar Ranger [Freebooter]
I mainly wanted this heritage for the Dex/Wis stat spread but See Invisibility is a FANTASTIC spell-like for this party and solves a huge problem they'd otherwise have. The Aasimar is an archer 100%. She should be able to kill anyone the Tiefling can't. The Freebooter archetype provides some math bonuses, which is great since we don't have a caster to feed us buffs. He takes the Trapfinding trait and is the skill monkey, of course.
Human Monk [Sensei/Underfoot Adept]
I'm pretty proud of this idea. The Sensei gets Inspire Courage which is self-explanatory; the Underfoot Adept (qualified for via Racial Heritage) offers trip-based control and makes the ability viable MUCH longer than it otherwise would be with the effective size increases. You can't really get that without a caster otherwise. Our Monk has the dubious title of being the only person on the team without darkvision but you have to give somewhere.
I think this team can cover most situations a typical adventuring team would find themselves in. We have a face (Paladin), skill monkey (Ranger), DPR (Barbarian/Ranger), buffs (Ranger/Monk), healing (Paladin) and battlefield control (Monk). Further ideas to make this work are of course appreciated.
Ninja (Teamwork), Ninja (Teamwork), Ninja (Teamwork), Ranger.
or
Ninja (Poison), Ranger (Bow), Ranger(Switch Hitter), Gunslinger.
or
Monk (Combat Patrol/AC), Monk (Trip), Fighter (Reach)/ Fighter (tower Shield), Ranger (Bow).
Ninjas can swarm foes for flanking backstabs out of vanish (Massive, sudden DPR + Poison + debuffs + Magic weapons), using teamwork feats to keep each other alive, ranger for DPR and buffs. Ninjas = All the skills and insane UMD, ranger = ranged damage vs fly.
Ninja (Skill monkey/scout/Poison Debuff), Ranger (DPR/Traps/Range), Ranger (DPR/Switch hitter/Buffs), Gunslinger (Alchemical Ammunition/Debuffs/Range vs touch). High wealth can cover mobility issues (range vs flying should help), enough skills to make up for magic deficiencies.
Monk for setting up a limited combat zone. Monk as a trip specialist with a reach weapon to keep the enemies down or in place, a reach fighter as backup for the monk and to add damage/ or to provide cover for the ranger to pour on magic damage and special material ammunition.
The enemies can't move, enemy casters are constantly under threat, and your ranger can pump out magical damage without wasting move actions taking defensive moves.
An all martial group would need high STR for all of their contingency items, and lots of gold to buy said contingency items. Potions and fast drinker feat to keep themselves alive or High UMD heal wands. If the whole party golfbags special materials/different enchantments and seriously buffs ac and saves, it should work pretty well.
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No 6 or 9s?
1: Human Paladin. Needs to be Human for the extra skill points, these will be needed. Roles: Warrior/Diplomacy/Healing
2: Ranger, pick your race. Darkvision is okay but we need the Ranger for outdoor stuff and specialisation in archery. Plus pet.
3: Bloodrager. Melee maniac with some use of utility spells.
4: Ninja. Different way of solving problems.
If it is going to high level, swap the Ninja for a Slayer/Red Mantis Assassin (might not work wit the Paladin).
This give more spell choice thus more options.
I'm not sure of the exact build I'd use off the top of my head, but I can see this class restriction making the Lantern Bearer actually very tempting.
Here:
Ranger (Trapper, Guide) 6 / Lantern Bearer 10 would be a strong contender for this type of party.
15 pt.
Str 13 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7
20 pt.
Str 12 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 7
25 pt.
Str 12 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 7
Half-Elf. Bonus into Dex. Grab the +2 to will saves in place of the skill focus.
If 25 pt. buy, put the 4th level point into dex, the 8th into con, the rest into dex. If 15 or 20 pt. buy, all into dex.
This guy can take care of: Disable Device, Perception (and he has trapfinding), Stealth, Survivial and several knowledge skills (nature, dungeoneering, planes, geography are class skills). The big boon, though, is the SLAs of the Lantern Bearer, which include things like dispel magic and see invisibility, with caster level equal to character level.
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This second guy I'm pretty proud of.
Angel-Blooded Aasimar, Paladin of Shelyn
Paladin (Oath of Vengeance, Sacred Servant) 4 > Sentinel 1 > Evangelist 10 > Paladin 9
I won't completely spell out this build, but a few highlights:
* Evangelist uses Sentinel as its aligned class, so we'll get both Sentinel and Evangelist boons.
* The 2nd Evangelist boon gives us a Versatile Performance choice, for while we will select Dance (Acrobatics, Fly); this makes up for the poor dex this character will have, and be especially useful for when we get the Aasimar wings later.
* Sentinel gives bonuses with the Glaive, so this guy will be a good battlefield controller.
* Oath of Vengeance will give us plenty of smiting uses, and Sacred Servant lets us pick a domain from Shelyn, though we will only get the 1st level power.
* 2nd Sentinel boon makes the Paladin smite add TWICE charisma on attack rolls, and add charisma in addition to paladin levels on damage rolls. So, this guys' smite remains powerful, even though its not advancing from paladin levels.
* High skill points from Evangelist means that we can keep intelligence at 10 or 12 and easily be able to master all the face skills. We can grab UMD as an additional class skill from Evangelist, and this guy will be the one to use the wands for the party. By level 6, he'll have something like a +13 on UMD; +15 for wands he's used before. By level 9 at the latest he'll be able to use wands without fail.
Really, these two guys would make a fine duo; they've got most stuff covered between them. There are some knowledge skills left out, though, and DPS isn't fantastic against non-evil things. I'll have to consider for the other two; one will probably just end up being a rage-pouncer...
All-alchemist party. After all, they have Extracts, not spells.
Human Monk [Sensei/Underfoot Adept]
I'm pretty proud of this idea. The Sensei gets Inspire Courage which is self-explanatory; the Underfoot Adept (qualified for via Racial Heritage) offers trip-based control and makes the ability viable MUCH longer than it otherwise would be with the effective size increases. You can't really get that without a caster otherwise. Our Monk has the dubious title of being the only person on the team without darkvision but you have to give somewhere.
You pick classes before you pick feats so you can't qualify for Underfoot at level 1.
I'd probably go...
Rakshasa-Spawn Hospitaler Paladin, take the Tiefling FCB and Fey-Foundling and frontline all day. Also, removes conditions.
Halfling (Order of the Dragon) Cavalier with Swift Aid and Body Guard, AC getting bonus int so it can take Body Guard as well. Sits there making AoO's, regular reach attacks, and giving out buffs.
Elven Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker some melee, some ranged DPR/skills.
Human Zen Archer purely Ranged DPR, maybe some skills.
:/
The third character plays a purely support Role. Dwarven Monk (Sensei, Ki Mystic, Qinggong Monk)
Slow fall > true strike (wait for it),
high jump > barkskin,
wholeness of body > gaseous form,
abundant step > restoration/ki leech,
quivering palm > restoration/ki leech,
tongue of the sun and the moon > abundant step
perfect self > diamond soul
Okay, this guy is useless at combat, but he's a godd**n machine when it comes to support. I never would have thought of this if not for this particular challenge, so thank you, Arachnofiend.
First, he has the bardic inspiration abilities, as hit upon by Arachnofiend. Great. He has the very, very, very excellent ki mystic ability to let allies re-roll saves, which will be insanely useful in this party. But most of all, he has this incredible synergy between the sensei and the Qinggong monk abilities. So, at 6th level, the sensei can give the benefit of his monk abilities to others. At 12th level, he can give the abilities to ALL of his allies. Consider at 12th level: move action, start inspire courage. Standard action: give 'true strike' to ALL of your allies. OR, give 'barkskin' to ALL of your allies. Each of these costs one ki. Later, you'll be able to cast 'restoration' on all of them with no material components.
NOW, consider taking the Quicken Spell Like Ability feat for, say, true strike. In the first round of combat, he starts Inspire Courage as a move action, gives the entire party 'true strike' as a swift action, and gives the entire party 'barkskin' as a standard. Or just tries to punch someone if they already have barkskin.
To make him optimal, the party will want to let him do the coup de grace blows when possible after he has ki leech, so he can get ki back. Ew.
For skills, grab him Deific Obedience for Irori, Breadth of Knowledge, and he can cover any of the knowledge skills that Ranger/Lanternbearer cannot.
Equipment: Wisdom boosters and a ring of ki mastery ASAP.
I'd probably go...
Rakshasa-Spawn Hospitaler Paladin, take the Tiefling FCB and Fey-Foundling and frontline all day. Also, removes conditions.
Halfling (Order of the Dragon) Cavalier with Swift Aid and Body Guard, AC getting bonus int so it can take Body Guard as well. Sits there making AoO's, regular reach attacks, and giving out buffs.
Elven Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker some melee, some ranged DPR/skills.
Human Zen Archer purely Ranged DPR, maybe some skills.
Do you have a way to deal with invisible creatures?
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Do you have a way to deal with invisible creatures?I'd probably go...
Rakshasa-Spawn Hospitaler Paladin, take the Tiefling FCB and Fey-Foundling and frontline all day. Also, removes conditions.
Halfling (Order of the Dragon) Cavalier with Swift Aid and Body Guard, AC getting bonus int so it can take Body Guard as well. Sits there making AoO's, regular reach attacks, and giving out buffs.
Elven Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker some melee, some ranged DPR/skills.
Human Zen Archer purely Ranged DPR, maybe some skills.
Flour?
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The ranger can see invisible with a spell-like ability. I will say that as this party goes into the later levels certain control spells will be absolutely crippling. Flight, wall spells, invisibility, will all be extremely hard for the party to deal with. The same goes for condition removal (blindness, neg levels, and so on).
I will also agree that the tiefling Fey Foundling Paladin's self heals are hideously good, and well outweigh the displacement SLA.
For the barbarian, I would personally suggest human, and take the favored class bonus to boost superstition. The saves will be through the roof, which is definitely needed for a barbarian.
Flour?Do you have a way to deal with invisible creatures?I'd probably go...
<snip>
It'd be awkward vs incorporeal invisible enemies...
Finally, my fourth:
4th character is a NG Half-Orc Barbarian of Erastil. This one's the big hitter for non-evil things. Even for evil things he's on par with the paladin. The other three have all necessary skills covered; this guy dumps INT, and gets *just* enough skills, with one point left over for Perception, to qualify for Mammoth Rider on time.
Barbarian (Mounted Fury) 6 / Evangelist 3 / Mammoth Rider 10
Obviously this guy will pick up the Boon Companion feat, to get a full level mount. His effective Barbarian level will be 8th , for the purpose of class abilities. Not sure I would spend them on Ferocious Mount, actually, as this character won't have an excess of rage rounds (only 18+CON per day), and may not be able to be splitting them with the mount. Superstition, for sure, given the lack of casters in the party. Ghost rager might be nice, too.
Besides the inherent benefits of Evangelist, the reason we take Evangelist at all here is for the 2nd boon of Erastil, which creates an exact copy of your animal companion 1/day for rounds equal to your character level. You won't get that ability until character level 16, but then your very powerful, huge-size mastadon or wolf or what-have-you has a twin that shows up for a while.
It's possible a straight Barbarian would be better, but I can't get over the idea of duplicating the huge mount =D
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An Oath of Charity Hospitaler Paladin can see to almost all of a party's healing and condition removal needs. Especially with UMD and a scroll or wand or three. Their self-healing is gonna be sub-par (though Fey Foundling still helps), but the ability to switch out Mercies is pretty phenomenal. With Unsanctioned Knowledge they can even help out on the utility spells front.
Getting some of the utility spells also looks likely to be possible via Bloodrager.
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Ghosttouch flower?It'd be awkward vs incorporeal invisible enemies...Flour?Do you have a way to deal with invisible creatures?I'd probably go...
<snip>
Coat the party in flour and convince the undead you are really ghosts?
Ugh. The invisibility thing is annoying. Arachnofiend's solution of having a Garuda-blooded aasimar on the team is mechanically the best, however I don't want to think that you have to take this one, specific subrace in order to make this work.
Lantern Bearer can get you faerie fire at character level 6, and see invisibility at character level 8, but that's coming in a little late.
Anyone else have any ideas to deal with this for early levels?
if there's going to be a lot of evil around, 4 paladin's all the way. obviously what they do beyond class abilities shouldn't be the same.
How about a Samsaran adept -> soul warden -> Evangelist (soul warden). Was mainly off the top of the head not much thought into it for pushing power.
I did mean adept the NPC class, it's a 5th level spellcasting class.
I did mean adept the NPC class, it's a 5th level spellcasting class.
Wow, that's cheeky. Well played.
Why are we wasting so many points on INT with this build? If you start as a Ranger you should have plenty of skill points and its still a four person party. No need to waste what could be a legitimate combat threat as a skill monkey. Take the 14 down to 10 and put the points into strength and go the switch hitter route picking up quickdraw and power attack at some point.
Because he needs int to cast the Lantern Bearer spells. That being said, I could definitely drop it to 12, pump strength to 14, and rely on getting a +2 int item later.
Ah, excellent discovery! The Half-Elf's Arcane Training alternate racial trait will let him use spell trigger and spell completion items as though he were a 1st level wizard; this resolves a lot of the early invisibility issues, among other things. Sadly he has to give up +6hp favored class bonus from his ranger levels, but I think it's worth it.
Aasimar Paladin (Holy Tactician) - Racial SLA's, and limited casting/healing, plus lots of teamwork feats and Weal's Champion party buff.
Halfling Ninja - Eventually Prestige into Shadowdancer. Shadow Conj and Shadow Evoc? Most versatile SLA's in a low-magic campaign. Plus pseudo-Dimension Door and Minor Image SLA's. For more SLA's, take the Minor/Major Magic Rogue Talents. You're now the Urban Skill Monkey and Magic Swiss Army Knife. You could be a Gnome instead for even more Racial SLA's, but I think Halfling is better in the instance.
Oread Ranger (Switch-Hitter) - Minorly useful Racial SLA, and replace Earth Affinity with Stone in the Blood. Buy a Wand of Acid Splash and give it to the Halfling. Proceed to out-of-combat- full heal all day for half the price of a CLW Wand. Also, your Nature-Skill Monkey
Human Barbarian (Superstitious Build) - The Ant-Magic group member. Kill all the magic. And back up Nature-Skill Monkey.
Ah, excellent discovery! The Half-Elf's Arcane Training alternate racial trait will let him use spell trigger and spell completion items as though he were a 1st level wizard; this resolves a lot of the early invisibility issues, among other things. Sadly he has to give up +6hp favored class bonus from his ranger levels, but I think it's worth it.
Well if the elf is going to be the new ranged caster, then let someone else be his meat shield! Who said caster party tactics won't work with no casters?
Uh, sure. But, you have to understand, what I've described here is a very, very non-standard Paladin, and shouldn't be taken as a solid Paladin build in general. In my final version of my four man party, which I'm still working on, I ended up going with a full Paladin.
First off all, I wrote it slightly incorrectly; he'd need to take five levels of Paladin before qualifying for Sentinel. So, the first five levels are Paladin. He gets Oath of Vengeance, which allows him to use two of his lay on hands to do smite evil. The Sacred Servant archetype gives him a domain and some casting relevant abilities in place of his Divine Bond and some of his smite evil uses. I would not use Sacred Servant for a full Paladin, but it's good when you're in Paladin for 4 or 5 levels.
The Sentinel prestige class gives you a ton of bonuses with your deity's favored weapon. In this case, the Glaive. The Evangelist prestige class give some minor abilities, most importantly skill points, but also advances the abilities of one other class, in this case, Sentinel. You should look at the links for more info if that's not clear.
I should also add its up for debate still whether the Evangelist's "Aligned Class" should be useable on another prestige class.
As described under those two prestige classes, the paladin will get a set of boons from Shelyn, which are described in more detail at the link. The most significant one is the second sentinel boon, which increases the power of the Paladin's smite. This is important, because the smite was otherwise not getting more powerful, as we're not advancing Paladin levels.
Finally, because we're actually leveling in Evangelist after level 6, we get a ton of skill points, letting this character be the linguist and face for the party easily.
This build, on the whole, is very very good at two things: smiting things very, very thoroughly and very often, and being a face. What he loses, however, is increases in his healing ability, as well as increases in his spellcasting. In my more current draft of the party, which I'll be posting when more finalized, I replaced him with a Straight Paladin 20. The new version is not nearly as good at killing things, but he is a very good party healer and the primary spellcaster in a party with no major spellcasting. When its posted, you may find it a better look at proper Paladin Building than this optimized Frankenstein :)
Hmmm...
Human Paladin (for extra feat and skill points, focus on social skills)
Human or Half-Orc Barbarian (Superstition/Beast Totem/Spell Sunder)
Half-Elf Ranger (With Dual Minded for increased Will save)
and Bloodrager if ACG classes are allowed. If not, Go with Zen Archer/Qiggong Monk.
Game is going to be difficult, so I wouldn't touch a Rogue or Fighter with a 10ft pole.