I'm trying to figure out if I want some archetypes for my Ranger. My Ranger is actually not a ranger yet, because I started with a level of Barbarian for the extra move (the HP and the rage doesn't suck either), and I'm still level 1. (I'm not actually sure if that level of Barbarian was a good idea; they look like they have synergy, but Rangers get plenty of speed boosting spells later on.)
I'm limited to Core and APG.
My Ranger-to-be is a level 1 half elf Barbarian switch-hitter. Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Wis 14. Perception accidentally went through the roof because I decided to put the half-elf skill focus on it. Backgroundwise, I noticed somewhere that half-elves born from wild-elves from the Mwangi expanse are called "wildborn", so if that's a real thing in Golarion, I'll probably go with that. It sounds very appropriate to my layman's ears.
Looking for potential archetypes, the ones that appeal most to me are the Infiltrator, the Skirmisher, and the Urban Ranger. Actually also the Guide, but I know I'll probably be facing Gnolls, and Guide doesn't work with Infiltrator. Although my group lacks a rogue, Urban Ranger doesn't sound appropriate to the character. So are Infiltrator and Skirmisher any good? Are there any other archetypes I should look at?
Infiltrator sounds appropriate. I'd already considered the background that my character had been captured by and escaped from Gnolls, so knowing a gnolls up close sounds suitable. Also, Darkvision and AC +2 don't suck at all. And I'm giving up Favoured Terrain which I'm not terribly sure about.
Skirmisher sounds really cool. I would be giving up spells, which of course hurts, particularly at higher levels, but some of those tricks are pretty awesome:
Deft Stand: I can't believe how many fights with wolves in Kingmaker would have been a lot easier if I'd been able to stand up safely.
Surprise shift and Chameleon Step would do wonders for my mobility. Not sure how important mobility really is, but I really do like abilities like these. I'm not sure if it's worth giving up spells for, though.
Is it better to stick to a basic ranger? Are there other archetypes I should be looking at?
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I think the standard Ranger is the best option from an optimization standpoint... but many of the Ranger archetypes are really solid. If you go Skirmisher you're just going from "great" to "really good".
I like the Skirmisher because when I want to play a Ranger I'm generally not playing a character I'd want to have spells. Nothing replaces casting if you're looking for the best option but you're hardly crippling your team by replacing it with Hunter's Tricks.
There's a good in-character reason to give up divine magic too. The other members of the group are a Cleric and a Paladin, both of the same religion (and really enthusiastic about it!), so in response, I took the Skeptic trait. Doesn't actually have anything to do with divine magic, but forgoing divine magic would absolutely be appropriate.
Then again, some of those spells are also really nice.
Thought being limited to Core+APG does limit my spell list quite a bit. I love Longstrider, but it's not exactly killer, is it? Many of the killer spells are ranged, but I'm a switch-hitter. I'm not entirely sure which spells I'd actually want.
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I would not use an archetype. They tend to not be worth what you give up, in many cases. The ranger archetypes especially. If however you need a rogue in the party and don't have one, the Trapper archetype has trapfinding.
Trapper, or Skirmisher, are the two archetypes I'd consider if you absolutely don't want spells... but Longstrider, Falcon's Aim, Lead Blades, Resist Energy... you're giving up a lot of your self-sufficiency, which is sort of the calling card of the Ranger.
Trapper is not APG, though. I'm limited to Core and APG.
A pity you can't get the Trapper Ranger, really. You'd trade off spells for traps, and get Trapfinding to boot.
I really like both the standard Ranger and Urban Ranger. The standard Ranger does exactly what it thematically should do, and manages to be both powerful without being overpowered and surprisingly versatile. The Urban Ranger's trading out the more generally useful favored terrains is a significant loss though, as is swapping Knowledge (Nature) for (Local).
On the Trapper, beyond it not being APG, I also have to admit that those traps don't really excite me. I feel like I'd be swapping spells for just Trapfinding.
On the Urban Ranger, I have trouble judging the value of Favored Terrain. We're currently in a building in the desert, about to go to the basement. Will that count as desert, buildings or underground? Favored Terrain is ironically easiest in a city based adventure.
I can see how Instant Enemy is awesome, but I won't get it until level 10 (actually 11 because I started as a Barbarian). No idea if we're even going to get that far.
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This is what Ranger spells can do; don't be too hasty to get rid of them. It's a +6 bonus to hit and damage whatever you run into, as a swift action, for the entire combat. And there's no save or SR they can turn to.
If Traps are REALLY a thing in the campaign, Trapper is worthwhile. You don't take it to make traps yourself (who cares) but to deal with enemy traps.
Furthermore, Favored Terrain (Underground) basically means "dungeons". You don't have to try to get rid of that ability!
I'm adding a Ranger level to a 10 pt henchman (Warrior 2/Ranger 1) for our 15 pt 5th level party, so I'm real interested in what archetypes are worth it. It's for a Golarion campaign made up of old school 1st and 2nd Edition-style modules.
I'm waffling between vanilla Ranger and Urban Ranger. It's for an unoptimized heavy crossbow user.
If nothing else, I think it would be fairly safe to trade out favored terrain for the Infiltrator archetype.
Favored terrain is a nice little boost to initiative and his scout skills... it is rather situational and doesn't quite beat out extra AC, senses, or some feats (such as the ones that boost saves).
So Skirmisher is not such a great idea, unless the campaign is unlikely to reach level 11. (And to be honest, I think it actually is unlikely to reach level 11.)
Infiltrator is probably good. While the initiative and skill bonus of Favored Terrain are nice, they're not spectacular, and they depend on being in the right terrain (and I suspect that depends on how lenient the GM is). On the other hand, Darkvision for level * 10 minutes per day lets me do stuff I can't otherwise do. AC +2 for level * 10 minutes per day means I've got that bonus when I need it most. I'd still need to figure out which of those two is better.
To what extent Trapper will be worthwhile, I don't know. Even if traps really are a thing in this campaign (I'm not sure if they are), then giving up spells for a chance to find and disable them, still sounds like a bad trade-off.
There are a number of fairly generic favored terrains that will let you get decent bonuses wherever. Urban, Underground and the Forest/Plains/Mountains depending on the local terrain will let you get your bonuses a lot more than you'd think.
The Guide archetype makes rangers much easier to use prior to level 10. Sure, you won't be getting favored enemy bonuses against mooks but you will get it (effectively) against all major enemies. Gnolls are a terribly specific favored enemy to take!
On the Urban Ranger, I have trouble judging the value of Favored Terrain. We're currently in a building in the desert, about to go to the basement. Will that count as desert, buildings or underground? Favored Terrain is ironically easiest in a city based adventure.
Yeah, Paizo really dropped the ball, pulled out a gun and shot it with the Urban Ranger. They should have done something like you only get "Urban" favored terrain but you get twice the normal bonus you would at each level or something like that. As it is though, unless you are sure you will never leave the specific city you start in. Like, hey if you were playing the Neverwinter MMO? Awesome archetype cause you never leave Neverwinter (Well, you do go to the outlying coast a bit and Icewind Dale at 60, ut you still always come back to Neverwinter) World of Warcraft? Not so awesome cause you got 4+ cities and what 4 continents?
Indeed, AbsolutGrndZer0. It would be a lot more useful if the Urban Ranger just got "Urban" as favored terrain automatically at level 3 then "Underground" at level 8 and left it at that.
Given that "Urban" alone covers just about anything that counts as a Settlement, this is actually a bit of an upgrade. I do like the Urban Ranger from a flavor point-of-view though. They're sort of the city watch to the Rogue's burglar or pickpocket.
Indeed, AbsolutGrndZer0. It would be a lot more useful if the Urban Ranger just got "Urban" as favored terrain automatically at level 3 then "Underground" at level 8 and left it at that.
Given that "Urban" alone covers just about anything that counts as a Settlement, this is actually a bit of an upgrade. I do like the Urban Ranger from a flavor point-of-view though. They're sort of the city watch to the Rogue's burglar or pickpocket.
Oh yeah, that's what I mean everything else about the Urban ranger I love... but that favored terrain GIMP is just like 'aaaaaargh' okay so um just cross Favored Terrain off my character completely for most campaigns...
I actually use Infiltrator a lot on rangers I make because I'm just not a hug fan of favored terrain. That being said favored terrain can be a great ability. Skirmisher is a good one too as it removes your spells and if it doesn't make sense to have spells for your character idea than that's what I would go with for an archetype. And if I'm remembering right they both can be applied which can be even better for certain concepts.
Consider Beastmaster: you don't give up too much, and you get to choose from the full list of animal companions, opening up some great options. With the Boon Companion feat, the +4 levels will exactly compensate both for the level lost from barbarian and the -3 from ranger, giving you a full-leveled animal companion of choice.
The Guide archetype makes rangers much easier to use prior to level 10. Sure, you won't be getting favored enemy bonuses against mooks but you will get it (effectively) against all major enemies. Gnolls are a terribly specific favored enemy to take!
I realize that, but this specific campaign appears to be entirely about Gnolls. We're on a mission to scout and eventually defeat some gnoll stronghold, so it looks like I'll mostly be fighting gnolls. (It's a published Adventure Path that takes place in a faux-Moroccan land. I forgot the name.)
Though clearly the gnolls do have some pets: today I killed a dire boar. It was actually a very switch-hittery fight: instead of the scale mail I had before, I wore leather armor I'd found, snuck up to a building that turned out to contain the dire boar. Boar seemed to smell my presence, so I put a few arrows in it and took some distance. It ends up next to me but can't attack anymore (hurray for the barbarian speed bonus!), so I drop the bow and switch to greatsword. He gores me badly, so withdraw while my buddies rush closer to help me. I throw a javelin at it from a distance, and finally charge again for the killing blow. It was a fun, though somewhat terrifying fight (I really couldn't take a second hit, and neither could anyone else). I'm clearly no tank, but I can do terrifying amounts of damage in varying circumstances already.
Consider Beastmaster: you don't give up too much, and you get to choose from the full list of animal companions, opening up some great options. With the Boon Companion feat, the +4 levels will exactly compensate both for the level lost from barbarian and the -3 from ranger, giving you a full-leveled animal companion of choice.
Boon Companion does sound perfect to compensate for my missing levels. Unfortunately it's from a book we don't use (and it doesn't seem part of the open PRD even), so I guess it's not going to be an option.
I'm not terribly interested in having the multiple animal companions that Beastmaster allows. The Improved Empathic Link is really neat though, and exactly what everybody would really want from their animal companion but never actually got. But giving up a combat style feat for a switch-hitter? Not sure if that's such a great idea.
The broader choice that the Beastmaster allows won't be necessary; I already picked my animal companion. We found some Geier (large vulture) eggs, and apparently I can hatch and train a geier and eventually take it as my animal companion. At level 7 (11 for me unless I take Boon Companion) it becomes Large and I can use it as a mount, which sounds incredibly cool, though I'm doubtful we'll take this campaign that far.
*struggles to wrap his mind around the idea of a game where Boon Companion is considered too exotic of a feat to allow*
Guide and Skirmisher can be taken together, since the archetype abilities don't replace the same core abilities.
From the Guide, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of Ranger's Focus, letting me effectively choose an individual creature as a favored enemy for the duration of a combat without the need for him to be any particular race. Giving your entire party +2 to Initiative, Perception, Stealth and Survival via Terrain Bond can also be a life saver.
My [multiclass] PC is just now hitting 9th L Ranger and honestly I'm not thrilled about swapping Evasion for Ranger's Luck, but...
The Skirmisher brings nothing to the table but Hunter's Tricks, which objectively probably are not worth the loss of spells. I had decided up front I wanted some form of spell-less Ranger so I lost nothing by using the archetype. Again, multiclassing means I'm only just now picking up my third Trick, but a single-class Guide-Skirmisher would get more benefit, obviously. I recommend Defensive Bow Stance if you play a ranged combatant, since it simulates a feat I believe you need to be middling high level to get...I've forgotten what the feat is called.
Boon Companion does sound perfect to compensate for my missing levels. Unfortunately it's from a book we don't use (and it doesn't seem part of the open PRD even), so I guess it's not going to be an option.
Well, if your GM isn't allowing it that's one thing, but it's as much a part of the PRD as anything. It's posted on d20pfsrd and pretty sure on the main Pathfinder srd. It's also allowed as far as I know in PFS. So, not sure what you mean by "not part of the open PRD even"
Well, if your GM isn't allowing it that's one thing, but it's as much a part of the PRD as anything. It's posted on d20pfsrd and pretty sure on the main Pathfinder srd. It's also allowed as far as I know in PFS. So, not sure what you mean by "not part of the open PRD even"
Boon Companion does sound perfect to compensate for my missing levels. Unfortunately it's from a book we don't use (and it doesn't seem part of the open PRD even), so I guess it's not going to be an option.
It's not on http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/indices/feats.html .
If it's considered highly standard and balanced, I can always ask. But generally the GM doesn't like using rules that aren't in books he doesn't have, which I can totally understand. The fact that it's not listed on Paizo's own PRD site doesn't help, as we tend to use that as our main reference site, rather than d20pfsrd.
But I'll ask. If anyone has a link a discussion about how Ranger's animal companions are too useless without it, that would definitely help. In fact, in another campaign, another player has a ranger with a badger as companion, and the badger has so far been utterly useless, so that would be a pretty strong case to make.
Boon Companion is here.
Guys it is no good to keep telling him to take boon companion it is not from CRP or APG and That is the books they use.
There is nothing wrong with not using the whole SRD. And boon companion is not from one of the hardcover books, it is from animal archives.
Guys it is no good to keep telling him to take boon companion it is not from CRP or APG and That is the books they use.
There is nothing wrong with not using the whole SRD. And boon companion is not from one of the hardcover books, it is from animal archives.
I missed that part, it sounded like he was unable to use it because HE didn't own the book and it wasn't on the "PRD." (which as someone else pointed out, is and always has been HC books only, and not even all of them, just the non-Golarion specific stuff) If though the GM has said "Core and APG only" then I understand.
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Since you know you're going to be fighting a lot of Gnolls, Guide would be a terrible choice for you.
After struggling to envision a game where "Favoured Community" would be useful I have decided that any "Urban" Ranger I make will simply be a Vanilla Ranger with Wisdom in the Flesh (Disable Device), a Religion trait that *i think* is in the APG. Favoured Terrain will be Urban/Underground. Done.
If I was making a Ranger for your campaign it would probably be standard CRB version with FE: Gnolls and FT: Desert.