5-24 Assault on the Wound


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zefig wrote:
With those of you noting that the second round of mass combat battles was still super easy, were the demon armies ganging up on PC armies? We mostly had 3-4 demon armies on 1-2 PC armies during that section, oftentimes fighting at night, and we ended up losing 2-3 PC armies that way. Demons fight dirty!

This happened to us, we lost half our team in the second engagement. It was brutal, but we came out on top in the end.

Scarab Sages 5/5

The stitched horrors fear ability should be shattering any army they come against. I basically fearlocked an Army of Exploration player.

Another thing thats been kind of noted here but perhaps not explicitly stated is that Team Evil gets bonus bad guys for every unique army the players field.

The Exchange 1/5

Also I forgot to mention I almost TPK the party in the high tier with the tiefling armies. Being able to fire the crossbows as a standard action and as a move action burn anything around you, I dropped two players to neg with the fire. I had to rule that they didn't burn to death for a round because it lasts that long but I just found they were slightly over powered. Also the rules for (unit) types are kinda weird.

Shadow Lodge

Something else easily overlooked on the troops - they do their melee damage automatically too. On top of those 4 line attacks (with a standard) and the fire wall (with a move).

Troop Stat Block wrote:
Troop Attack: Creatures with the troop subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature within reach or whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. A troop’s stat block has “troop” in its Melee entry with an attack bonus given only for attacks of opportunity.

When I ran this, the party (for like this one scenario), lacked a spellcaster with a major AOE. They got through it, but it was a rough fight that kept the super-built aasimar life oracle occupied fulltime with healing.

The players were already asking questions along the lines of, "are we being punished with new mechanics today?".

It's like if you wanted to make a scenario to punish people, you'd think, "Hey, what can I follow up two mass combat battles with? I know, let's use a troop that normally would have machine guns but we'll just give them crossbows... and to put the cherry on top, how about a magus with natural attacks and smite evil? We can also give him stinking cloud, darkness, displacement, glitterdust and mirror image to make it as frustrating as possible to feel like hitting him is out of my control..."

If a particularly cruel GM is handed Brae-Hagen and can avoid the save-or-die mechanics of a tetori/witch/wizard/etc, if he simply uses the full iterative attack sequence with spell combat and smite up, he should be able to kill a good character in 1-2 rounds (which again, barring the 1-round wonders, he'd likely get).

This is another reason I'm not a fan of the scenario, it more than any other scenario I've seen has the power to completely take players out of the game for hours at a time, sending them to play games on their iPads or phones. When I ran it, a player quickly lost his cavalry in the first several minutes and was taken out of the first engagement. The same thing happened the second engagement. Quick deaths in the two engagements effectively removes someone for ~2 hours of this scenario. If that was the same player who was dropped unconscious by the troop and either rendered nauseous by a stinking cloud, lacking darkvision or some other interesting way to participate in the final combat, there's just way too high of a chance someone is sitting around not having fun in this one.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Keep in mind pinning is not a sufficient condition for a coup de grace. The monk would also need to tie the enemy up (possible on the same round though with Greater Grapple).

Are you sure about that Mark? A Pinned creature and a tie-up creature is essentially the same thing just tied up has extra rules for escaping. They both have the Pinned condition. Being Tied up gives the same exact penalties as pinned.

And neither Pinned or Tie-up gives the helpless condition which is required for a coup de grace.

Pinned/Tied-up Condition you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, Helpless Dexterity is treated as 0 which are 2 different things.

I could be wrong though, I am basing this on what i am seeing in the PRD

4/5 ****

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Dragnmoon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Keep in mind pinning is not a sufficient condition for a coup de grace. The monk would also need to tie the enemy up (possible on the same round though with Greater Grapple).

Are you sure about that Mark? A Pinned creature and a tie-up creature is essentially the same thing just tied up has extra rules for escaping. They both have the Pinned condition. Being Tied up gives the same exact penalties as pinned.

And neither Pinned or Tie-up gives the helpless condition which is required for a coup de grace.

Pinned/Tied-up Condition you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, Helpless Dexterity is treated as 0 which are 2 different things.

I could be wrong though, I am basing this on what i am seeing in the PRD

It's hiding in the helpless definition:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

5/5

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

Tie Up /= bound unless the GM wants it to. YMMV and ETV

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

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Well, let me tell you, if Baird ties me up I am all manners of helpless to resist.

4/5 Designer

Otherwise, what would that "bound" actually mean? Is there any way to make that word make sense while disallowing coup de grace with tie up?

Grand Lodge 4/5

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'Bound' is not actually a term defined by the rules and as such is open to GM interpretation. I have interpreted it to mean 'tied up and helpless' and will continue to do so until a clarification is issued.

5/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
'Bound' is not actually a term defined by the rules and as such is open to GM interpretation. I have interpreted it to mean 'tied up and helpless' and will continue to do so until a clarification is issued.

Exactly this. Maybe Mark can fix that. :-)

There's definitely a difference between tied up and bound. To me, tied up can range all the way down to being wrapped up a bit, unable to use your arms to get to your gear, but still able to wiggle around and try to protect yourself (as much as you could while pinned). Think handcuffed to an immovable object. Bound, on the other hand, means completely tied up and unable to resist.

This is why tied up is effectively pinned w/o someone holding you.

4/5 Designer

TriOmegaZero wrote:
'Bound' is not actually a term defined by the rules and as such is open to GM interpretation. I have interpreted it to mean 'tied up and helpless' and will continue to do so until a clarification is issued.
Kyle Baird wrote:
Bound, on the other hand, means completely tied up and unable to resist.

How does one reach this second sort of being tied up then?

Not trying to pick your interpretation apart. I may even prefer it if it has legs on which to stand, but I'm going to need some evidence, so let me know what you got!

Grand Lodge 4/5

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I should clarify that I interpret tied up = bound and thus helpless. :)

Since bound it not defined, I can say that it refers to tied up. ;)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Otherwise, what would that "bound" actually mean? Is there any way to make that word make sense while disallowing coup de grace with tie up?

In that case if you are going that route, how do you define Held?

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

If you are going to allow Bound to describe Tie-up then Held in Pinned.

Edit: sorry bringing this off topic. If someone wants to start a topic on it I will post there.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Dragnmoon wrote:
In that case if you are going that route, how do you define Held?

Paralyzed.

Scarab Sages 4/5 **

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber

Had a blast running these mass combats for my table, and they seemed to enjoy it as well.

Mass combat section ran ~3 hours, as the players favored defensive manuevers in combat. Thankfully, we had plenty of AOE for the troops, and some failed concentration checks significantly reduced Hagen's effectiveness, but still caused alarm as they determined the force punch was coming.

Anyone come up with a method to reduce the down-time between player turns when the melee phase slugfest begins? Had some moments of 5+ minute turns as the defensive walled dwarves fought the cultists. Eventually had the cultists disengage to keep stuff moving.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Kenneth Fisher wrote:
Anyone come up with a method to reduce the down-time between player turns when the melee phase slugfest begins?

Do not run each combat to completion on the same turn. Have each day be one round of combat for those engaged. This allows other players to be moving and possibly entering the battle as the rules suggest they should be able to do.

Scarab Sages

Dragnmoon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Otherwise, what would that "bound" actually mean? Is there any way to make that word make sense while disallowing coup de grace with tie up?

In that case if you are going that route, how do you define Held?

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

If you are going to allow Bound to describe Tie-up then Held in Pinned.

Edit: sorry bringing this off topic. If someone wants to start a topic on it I will post there.

Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.

I would say "Held" is along the lines of these spells:
Hold Person
Hold Monster

5/5

Mark Seifter wrote:

How does one reach this second sort of being tied up then?

Not trying to pick your interpretation apart. I may even prefer it if it has legs on which to stand, but I'm going to need some evidence, so let me know what you got!

Pick all you want. This a very gray area in the rules as currently written (fix that you new designer, you).

Imagine you're 'rasslin' somebody and you pull out a length of rope. You gain control of the grapple, pin them against the ground and with a free hand wrap the rope around them. The way the rules read to me, they're now effectively pinned even when you let them go, except that in order to break this pin they need a much higher check and you can stand back and laugh at them. The only things they can do, are the same things they could do while pinned. So they can still wiggle around and try to avoid attacks, just like when you were sitting on them and had them pinned, but they don't have to hold still and let you slit their throat.

Now, there has to be some way to finish tying them up so they can't wiggle and effectively bind them. There's no clear way to do this as bound isn't a defined condition.

Scarab Sages

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Kenneth Fisher wrote:
Anyone come up with a method to reduce the down-time between player turns when the melee phase slugfest begins?
Do not run each combat to completion on the same turn. Have each day be one round of combat for those engaged. This allows other players to be moving and possibly entering the battle as the rules suggest they should be able to do.

The player handout rules for mass combat says that the Melee Phase does not end until one side falls or withdraws. Running it as each round is a new day allows some units multiple attacks each round and is more deadly to the players, especially in the second mass combat set.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Kyle Baird wrote:


Imagine you're 'rasslin' somebody and you pull out a length of rope...

Oh Kyle, "imagine," like we all haven't done this before.

Scarab Sages

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You guys have spent way too much time with Zarta...

Grand Lodge 4/5

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WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:
The player handout rules for mass combat says that the Melee Phase does not end until one side falls or withdraws. Running it as each round is a new day allows some units multiple attacks each round and is more deadly to the players, especially in the second mass combat set.

I am aware of what the handout says, but that completely precludes armies joining battles in progress which they also mention, as they cannot take their turn until the combat is over. This left players sitting out of the game for up to an hour during our slot zero at PaizoCon.

We did not get to run the second melee. What units would get extra attacks? The ranged phase only happen once.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Battle Phases:
The rules for mass combat in this adventure are broken down into four major phases: the Movement phase, the Tactics phase, the Ranged phase, and the Melee phase. Completing all four phases (as applicable) represents a full day of campaigning, after which the phases repeat the following day.

Movement Phase:
During this phase, each unit commander (PC and NPC armies) moves his or her army up to its speed in hexes. To determine the order in which the armies act, each army rolls 1d10 and adds its Speed and commander’s Charisma bonus to the roll. Armies act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. When one army enters the hex of an enemy army, those armies are considered locked in combat and cannot move until the next day. If any armies are in combat, proceed to the Tactics phase; otherwise the day ends.

Melee Phase:
The armies finally clash with melee attacks. Each commander selects a strategy using the Strategy Track, then each army makes an attack against another army. Repeat the Melee phase until one army is defeated or routs, or some other event ends the battle.

My understanding is that once combatants are locked in a combat, they must continue to fight until one is Dead, Routed, or Withdraws. They only get one Melee Phase (normally) a day, but it doesn't put everyone else not in combat on hold. It just generally means actively fighting combatants get to advance to the Tactics -> Ranged -> Melee Phase each day, while everyone else only gets their Movement Phase in a day.

Scarab Sages

TriOmegaZero wrote:
WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:
The player handout rules for mass combat says that the Melee Phase does not end until one side falls or withdraws. Running it as each round is a new day allows some units multiple attacks each round and is more deadly to the players, especially in the second mass combat set.

I am aware of what the handout says, but that completely precludes armies joining battles in progress which they also mention, as they cannot take their turn until the combat is over. This left players sitting out of the game for up to an hour during our slot zero at PaizoCon.

We did not get to run the second melee. What units would get extra attacks? The ranged phase only happen once.

When I played this, we played low tier. There may be things in high tier that are different, but the Dretches, Rift Drakes, and I believe Stitched Horrors were all getting ranged attacks. Again, this is based on your proposed one melee round per day. It's not completely overpowering if you follow the rules on the handout.

Scarab Sages

"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Battle Phases:

The rules for mass combat in this adventure are broken down into four major phases: the Movement phase, the Tactics phase, the Ranged phase, and the Melee phase. Completing all four phases (as applicable) represents a full day of campaigning, after which the phases repeat the following day.

Movement Phase:
During this phase, each unit commander (PC and NPC armies) moves his or her army up to its speed in hexes. To determine the order in which the armies act, each army rolls 1d10 and adds its Speed and commander’s Charisma bonus to the roll. Armies act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. When one army enters the hex of an enemy army, those armies are considered locked in combat and cannot move until the next day. If any armies are in combat, proceed to the Tactics phase; otherwise the day ends.

Melee Phase:
The armies finally clash with melee attacks. Each commander selects a strategy using the Strategy Track, then each army makes an attack against another army. Repeat the Melee phase until one army is defeated or routs, or some other event ends the battle.

My understanding is that once combatants are locked in a combat, they must continue to fight until one is Dead, Routed, or Withdraws. They only get one Melee Phase (normally) a day, but it doesn't put everyone else not in combat on hold. It just generally means actively fighting combatants get to advance to the Tactics -> Ranged -> Melee Phase each day, while everyone else only gets their Movement Phase in a day.

My understanding, and the way it was played with our group was you follow initiative to conduct the movement phase. Once all units have completed their movements, all units select their Tactics. Once base Tactics are established, resolve Ranged combats in order of initiative. After this starts the Melee phase, which repeats until an army is defeated, routed or withdraws. Until the Melee phase can no longer be played, no one outside the combats has much to do other than plan(be a General). The day is not over until all combat ends according to the rules handout. It took a couple rounds for everyone to get used to the rules, but ran very quickly once we did.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)

This thread proves that everything relates back to grappling monks...

Grand Lodge 4/5

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And maybe it would have gone quicker had we gotten used to the rules. As it was, we ran the first melee over three hours with multiple battles. Each battle had at least one player army not participating, leaving that player with nothing to do for an hour or more due to having to resolve each combat before initiative could resume.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:
"Devil's Advocate" wrote:

Battle Phases:

The rules for mass combat in this adventure are broken down into four major phases: the Movement phase, the Tactics phase, the Ranged phase, and the Melee phase. Completing all four phases (as applicable) represents a full day of campaigning, after which the phases repeat the following day.

Movement Phase:
During this phase, each unit commander (PC and NPC armies) moves his or her army up to its speed in hexes. To determine the order in which the armies act, each army rolls 1d10 and adds its Speed and commander’s Charisma bonus to the roll. Armies act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. When one army enters the hex of an enemy army, those armies are considered locked in combat and cannot move until the next day. If any armies are in combat, proceed to the Tactics phase; otherwise the day ends.

Melee Phase:
The armies finally clash with melee attacks. Each commander selects a strategy using the Strategy Track, then each army makes an attack against another army. Repeat the Melee phase until one army is defeated or routs, or some other event ends the battle.

My understanding is that once combatants are locked in a combat, they must continue to fight until one is Dead, Routed, or Withdraws. They only get one Melee Phase (normally) a day, but it doesn't put everyone else not in combat on hold. It just generally means actively fighting combatants get to advance to the Tactics -> Ranged -> Melee Phase each day, while everyone else only gets their Movement Phase in a day.

My understanding, and the way it was played with our group was you follow initiative to conduct the movement phase. Once all units have completed their movements, all units select their Tactics. Once base Tactics are established, resolve Ranged combats in order of initiative. After this starts the Melee phase, which repeats until an army is defeated, routed or withdraws. Until the Melee phase can no...

I dont believe that is right. Reading through the Ult Camp, it looks like there is no Movement Phase, its only Tactics, Ranged, and Melee. But an army only gets one of those a day, (which all resolve at the same time). But Mass Combat itself is Day by Day, (so just like a normal basic combat round, one standard, one move, etc which is Round by Round),you only get one turn. You just cant move away, or shift location without special rules. I

There are also rules for extra combatants joining the battle in progress, so it can not put everyone else on hold while each individual one isresolved between DM and 1 player.

Scarab Sages

TOZ, Everyone should be moving before combat begins. Once something enters a hex of an enemy, it locks them in, but more armies could move into that hex before the end of the movement phase.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Yes, and if they cannot reach that hex in time, they are out of the game until the battle ends.

It really just encourages players to form Voltron and roll across the map at the slowest armies speed, negating any difference in combat from normal initative.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Yes, and if they cannot reach that hex in time, they are out of the game until the battle ends.

It really just encourages players to form Voltron and roll across the map at the slowest armies speed, negating any difference in combat from normal initative.

We did a variation on this. We turtled up, drawing the enemies to us, then mobbed them down two or three at a time.

Grand Lodge 4/5

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I believe Thursty called it 'the murderball'.

WiseWolfOfYoitsu wrote:
When I played this, we played low tier. There may be things in high tier that are different, but the Dretches, Rift Drakes, and I believe Stitched Horrors were all getting ranged attacks. Again, this is based on your proposed one melee round per day. It's not completely overpowering if you follow the rules on the handout.

I want to return to this to point out that you only get one ranged attack before closing to melee. If you're already in melee, you can't really make a ranged attack. Maybe this isn't explicitly written the the rules, but I feel it fits better the intention of mass combat.

Silver Crusade 5/5

When I ran it, I suggested to my players that if they all grouped up, so would the bad guys. And since the bad guy armies outnumber the good guy armies they would likely not do well. It worked out, with no more than two pc armies in a hex at a time. Though there was a very tense moment when the PCs stuck their necks out and had to fight 4 npc armies with two pc armies (the players had been fighting the bad guys two-on-one all afternoon, and I warned them beforehand that they were making a dangerous move)

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Alex, how long did those individual battles take to resolve, and what were the unengaged players doing?

Silver Crusade 5/5

The 4 on 2 battle took around 20 minutes (see first post for the description). Other than that one battle, only one other battle took longer than five minutes (the battle between the Mendevian cavalry and the tieflings at Silvershore). Most other battles took 2 or 3 minutes, which is only slightly longer than a player's turn in a combat round.

Silver Crusade 2/5

P. 236 in the Ultimate Campaign book talks about Battle Phases, and p. 239 talks about victory, rout or defeat.

prd wrote:
For example, a battle in a muddy field after a rain could take place over hours and involve several short breaks to remove the dead from the battlefield, but still counts as one battle for the purposes of these rules. If there is an extended break (such as stopping at nightfall to resume combat in the morning) or the battle conditions change significantly (such as the assassination of a commander, the arrival of another army, and so on), the GM should treat each period of combat between armies as one battle.
prd wrote:
3. Melee Phase: The armies finally clash with melee attacks. Each commander selects a strategy using the Strategy Track, then each army makes an attack against another army. Repeat the Melee phase until one army is defeated or routs, or some other event ends the battle.
prd wrote:
An army is victorious if all of its enemy armies flee the battlefield or are defeated. The aftermath of the battle can be different for each army, and depends on whether it was defeated, routed, or victorious.

There are as many melee phases in one battle as are necessary to end the battle. It isn't just one melee phase per day.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Mark Seifter wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?
Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, respectfully disagree.

Bruno grapple keyboard and make FAQ about this issue last year. It has not been addressed.

(Although not a rules guy, James Jacobs says multiple grapple checks in one round is intended.)

edit to add: Bruno not post earlier in thread because Bruno not sure if GMing scenario and didn't want to spoil self. Bruno now scheduled to GM, hence why responding to post now.

4/5 Designer

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Bruno Breakbone wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Move up establish grapple. Round 2 Pin. Unless there's something i'm missing even a tetori can't move up and pin on the first round?
Even if the enemy moved up to the tetori, you can't maintain during the same round you established. The only way I can think of to pull it off is with Snapping Turtle Clutch to establish off turn and then maintain on your own next turn for the pin and tie up.

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful tetori, respectfully disagree.

Bruno grapple keyboard and make FAQ about this issue last year. It has not been addressed.

(Although not a rules guy, James Jacobs says multiple grapple checks in one round is intended.)

edit to add: Bruno not post earlier in thread because Bruno not sure if GMing scenario and didn't want to spoil self. Bruno now scheduled to GM, hence why responding to post now.

@FAQ timing--smaller grapple ambiguities will probably wait for a big ol' grapple FAQ blog that covers many edge cases, so while that will take longer, it will also be a nice bigger juicier FAQ to grapple with hugs of joy and friendship for handsome tetori like Bruno.

TOZ wrote:
I want to return to this to point out that you only get one ranged attack before closing to melee. If you're already in melee, you can't really make a ranged attack. Maybe this isn't explicitly written the the rules, but I feel it fits better the intention of mass combat.

Back on topic so I don't feel bad about derailing--I think what they were saying is that if you disengage combat each day after a single melee phase, then armies with ranged attacks get to make their ranged attacks more often (since presumably there would be another ranged phase after the armies broke camp the next morning, unless the demons and paladins all stopped fighting and pulled out their sleeping bags to sleep amongst one another while still in melee range or something like that).

Grand Lodge 4/5

Mark Seifter wrote:
Otherwise, what would that "bound" actually mean? Is there any way to make that word make sense while disallowing coup de grace with tie up?

Mark, just to disambiguify, maybe add one more potential step to grappling after the first Tie Up, which would require a tied up opponent, and, if successful, would leave them with the bound condition?

Tied up would be unable to normally escape, bound would be mummified in ropes/chains/what-have-you.

Just as a thought.

5/5

Standard Grapple
Move, Maintain - go right to tied up with -10 penalty.
Swift, maintain - bind.

Or more common would be to bind on the next round.

I like this. Then we could define bound as being helpless.

Dark Archive 5/5

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Potentially dangerous tactic to PC armies in the second engagement is to have the dretch armies in the murderball take Disengage checks (which only require checks against the armies engaging them), and then focus ranged on a single PC army until burnt to a crisp.

There's SOME subtlety in the ruleset for tactically minded folks. I didn't have as much trouble presenting it in-line with the game and keeping it moving.

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TetsujinOni wrote:

Potentially dangerous tactic to PC armies in the second engagement is to have the dretch armies in the murderball take Disengage checks (which only require checks against the armies engaging them), and then focus ranged on a single PC army until burnt to a crisp.

There's SOME subtlety in the ruleset for tactically minded folks. I didn't have as much trouble presenting it in-line with the game and keeping it moving.

I was doing the same thing with the Elven Uprooters when I played it (especially since I had super high morale checks thanks to playing a high CHA character.).

Dark Archive 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

about the only way I can see to get good use out of the uprooters (though they also have sniper, so they can melee AND shoot, iirc)

Grand Lodge 3/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I just played this on Sunday and then read it after our party nearly TPKed, almost for the second time - once fighting the second battle and once during the troop fight.

Party make-up and levels - Rogue 6, Rogue 5, Samurai 6 (me), Cavalier 1/Inquisitor 5 - high tier, barely.

Mass combat - no real complaints. Our GM was trying to run it cold and it's basically a whole new game that none of us had played before - our mistakes were our fault and a matter of being tactically outmatched.

The troop, on the other hand, seems wildly unbalanced. The ability to make the equivalent of four lightning bolts without provoking while casting a Wall of Fire and automatically dealing melee make the damage output far more than even the dedicated front-liners can easily handle.

When we played, my 6th-level samurai and the 6th-level Cavalier 1/Inquisitor 5 closed to melee in order to provide some sort of defense for the two party rogues. No, we were not balanced, but it hardly mattered, given the absurd damage that was immediately leveled upon us. The GM drew all four lines of fire through my samurai's space, dealing 7d8 and change to me and the rogue trying to use me for cover, without so much as a single roll made. The next round, the volley of arrows was lessened as the party had either drawn beside me or fled for cover, but then came the auto-damage as I had moved adjacent to try to prevent some of the arrow damage by threatening the archers with my reach weapon. By the time the troop had taken it's move action, we had two characters dead, and our two rogues had turned tail and fled rather than be the next casualties.

Having an enemy that can (with the proper geometry from the GM) churn out 7d8 plus 5d4 a round at range and simultaneously auto-hit melee is unbalancing and, quite frankly, unfair for the players. It's absurdly strong against a 'tank' character, as their AC has become literally useless. It is literally untouchable by anything but an area-blasting caster - single-target spells do not affect it, so there goes Magic Missle, any enchantments you might have, your Scorching Rays. It has the equivalent of four lightning bolts a round with no limit on how many times it can use it, which is simply devastating no matter what your character is. It can control the battlefield with it's wall of flame after firing four lightning bolts. And, in the event that you manage to duck and weave your way into melee because why would you ever try to outshoot it, it ignores your AC and doesn't give you a save, it simply moves straight to damaging you, regardless of what sort of investment you've made in your saves or your AC.

Having not played Book 5 of Reign of Winter, I can't really speak to how the troop in there is handled. But, given the way it was presented in this scenario, I severely wish it had stayed there. I can't recall ever fighting an enemy where I felt quite as helpless, with no way of defeating it without playing a completely different character.

2/5

John Francis wrote:


Mind you, trying to fly out when you're surrounded by a bunch of angry adventurers isn't guaranteed to work. In fact in the second table I ran enough of the AoOs got through to reduce him to exactly 0hp. This meant that the strenuous action of attempting to fly meant he pretty much leapt out of the room and collapsed ignominiously.

I think that was us! We definitely alerted him though, and his buffs were up and in force. If I recall, he put up a decent fight (or at least survived for a little while). Unfortunately, action economy is rough on single BBEGs.

Might be interesting to incorporate the trap into his encounter, though I don't remember the specifics of it right now.

edit- The mob outside the main lair was definitely a confusing point for us as well. I was knocked unconscious, but we recovered and dispersed them relatively quickly.

4/5

Jelloarm wrote:
The GM drew all four lines of fire through my samurai's space, dealing 7d8 and change to me and the rogue trying to use me for cover, without so much as a single roll made.

No rolls at all, even reflex saves? There's supposed to be a reflex save for half, which is "evasion able." And it looked like you had two rogues.

Not saying the troop isn't brutal...it is.

Grand Lodge 3/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My misspeak - I did have a reflex save, which, as it was all four lines, at DC 21. I kept rolling 15s, which got me to 20. But, alas, only in horseshoes and hand-grenades...

And concerning evasion, you will note that only the rogues survived.

5/5

Paulicus wrote:
edit- The mob outside the main lair was definitely a confusing point for us as well. I was knocked unconscious, but we recovered and dispersed them relatively quickly.

I think this may be the first time I've seen "mob" used to describe a monster on this forum that's actually been appropriate.

2/5

I greatly enjoyed the scenario, including the troop, but I can see people saying it deals a lot of damage. A high tier CR equivalent dragon does like 6d6 with its breath weapon and can't use it every round. It's very rocket tag - kill it quick or it's gonna eat you up. I was a self healing focused paladin so I was okay for a bit but the look on peoples faces when they saw the troops damage numbers was something best described as terror.

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