Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I think that was us! We definitely alerted him though, and his buffs were up and in force. If I recall, he put up a decent fight (or at least survived for a little while). Unfortunately, action economy is rough on single BBEGs.
Mind you, trying to fly out when you're surrounded by a bunch of angry adventurers isn't guaranteed to work. In fact in the second table I ran enough of the AoOs got through to reduce him to exactly 0hp. This meant that the strenuous action of attempting to fly meant he pretty much leapt out of the room and collapsed ignominiously.
Sunday? The table down fairly close to the HQ desk? With a couple of VCs at the tables as well? If so, then that was you.
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Quick question here:
Similarly, is any PC so pushed off out of the fight entirely if they cannot fly back up or teleport? A 100 foot climb would take 10 rounds of climbing with 20 successful DC 20 climb checks... Unlikely, really.
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The only real option in the rules is this.
It's practically impossible to catch yourself on a wall while falling, yet if you wish to attempt such a difficult task, you can make a Climb check (DC = wall's DC + 20) to do so.
Not very likely, but most GMs don't know it exists and make up Reflex saves to catch hold and the like.
Thankfully, my oracle wears boots of the cat and would have been fine.
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I think I counted 16x17 hexes. Thankfully, this is almost the exact size of my Chessex BattleMat. I bought it way back when I started gaming and totally missed the fact that it was 1 1/2" squares and hexes. Whoops! However, it seems to be a great size for the engagements. I figure it will allow 1" base minis or pogs to squeeze into a hex without too much hassle. Won't know from experience for another week yet. But 1 1/2" hexes should be good. Doesn't take up too much table-space either. If you want to go broader scale, go for 2" hexes.
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Where the PCs begin this encounter depends on how
they approach the cliff top. Allow each PC to attempt a DC 5 Stealth check. The PCs begin 150 feet away from the trap door but are able to approach 10 feet closer for each point by which the lowest Stealth check exceeds the DC (minimum starting distance of 40 feet).
So, would the PCs get a surprise round at Distance X or is it assumed they are spotted at Distance X and a normal combat begins?
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So, would the PCs get a surprise round at Distance X or is it assumed they are spotted at Distance X and a normal combat begins?Where the PCs begin this encounter depends on how
they approach the cliff top. Allow each PC to attempt a DC 5 Stealth check. The PCs begin 150 feet away from the trap door but are able to approach 10 feet closer for each point by which the lowest Stealth check exceeds the DC (minimum starting distance of 40 feet).
I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Their 'surprise round' is getting a bit closer than the standard 150'.
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Would you allow an army to "delay" in the initiative order as in a normal combat round? It does not seem thematic to mass combat but seems preferable in many ways to be reactionary, i.e. lower in the initiative order. Some of the enemy armies have tactics that would likewise benefit from lower initiative order.
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I just uploaded a clean mass combat hex map to the GM Prep forums. I managed to get a clean background out of it and overlay a hex, then resized it to extra large (29" wide) to max out the printable area at the local print shop. B&W on a 30" wide paper for these maps runs about $9 which seems acceptable.
Up next - I made some isometric maps of the command bunker, complete with a dartboard with a picture of Ollysta pinned to it... I'll upload those to the GM Prep in the next couple days. They are printable on 8.5"x11" regular old paper...
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Depending on how many players use unique armies, rolling the initiatives for the demon armies can be a real pain in the keister. You could easily have 12-13 armies to each roll 1d10 for in the second engagement.
The reason initiative matters is that you can use an army to prevent another army from moving.
For example, if the players form a murderball and then begin advancing towards some demons, imagine two players go first, and move their two armies towards a hex that may or may not have demons. You could then move a demon army into the location where the rest of the players' murderball is located and those players are then unable to move and rejoin the murderball army.
The tactic works for the players, too.
I recommend bringing a lot of d10s when you GM this scenario, so you can roll a dozen at once for the demon initiative. I just then line them up kind of how they landed in a big line and go through however my cheat sheet listed the demon armies and assign the initiatives.
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So how did GMs handle the environmental effects for the mass combat? It's obvious that there was stuff going on in the map (especially the "House of Reflections") but it wasn't clearly defined what mechanical effect they would have on combat or movement in those hexes. The rules in the back say that the GM is free to apply modifiers based on the environmnet as they see fit. I ran this Scenario 5 times over GenCon. Not once did I mess with environment modifiers, as spending 20-30 minutes explaining the basics to my players took long enough and certain regions weren't clearly defined on the map.
My other critique is about combat occuring in the same hex and "sharing hexes". I had to borrow a hex map from a friend just to run this scenario and it was of course, the standard 1" hex battlemat. Keeping track of which armies are all sharing which hexes gets complicated quickly. After the second time running it at the convention, I worked out a system of writing down each of the monsters on my notepad I used for initiative tracking, then writing each player down next to the monster who's hex they entered and moving their piece to the side of the map. (it helped that I use color-coded munchkin minis for generic baddies)
I think it would have been much simpler if they had combat lock in at ADJACENT hexes.
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I ran this Saturday and I had only one problem. What am I post to do with the Troop if they just ignore it and go down the hatch? I know its a Gargantuan creature for battlefield size purposes. but was I justified to say that they could all just go down the Trap door in a single round? I mean its space it takes up is irrelevant to the 5ft square that they go down since its basically a swarm of MEDIUM creatures.
I just reasoned they each had a movement of 60 feet in a single round to go down a 15ft ladder. into a area that supports their full gargantuan size. was i wrong to spare the PC's a full on TPK saying they simply couldnt go down because a Gargantuan crature cant fit because its too big? How should have I ran this? How should anyone Run a situation like that?
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Thinking about where each individual would have to move, it should be at least a full-round action, after the troop moved adjacent to the ladder. If the GM allowed the troop to use any of its damage-dealing abilities while doing so, it's more like two full rounds. They might choose to fire crossbows through the trapdoor instead.
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you CAN shape swarms and Troops. as long as they are all connected they don't have to stay in a 4x4 square grid. you effectively have a 16 square line to play with as needed. its in the RAW and there is no overruling exception given.
...A single troop occupies a 20-foot-by-20-foot square, equal in size to a Gargantuan creature, though the actual size category of the troop is the same as that of the component creatures. The area occupied by a troop is completely shape-able, though the troop must remain in contiguous squares to accurately reflect the teamwork of trained military units...
...The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
If you read the Troop type description in the appendix of the scenario, it gives you all the info you need on troops. Aside from being really, REALLY stealthy, I don't see how the party could possibly bypass the troop (tho, i would have preferred it as an optional encounter given the potential time sink of the mass combat). even if they all just push through/run around, the troop can easily follow them down the ladder and crowd the first floor. on the other hand, i can see this being an effective strategy to avoid their deadly crossbow volley attack. if it takes the pc's more than a round to move to and through the trap door (as it should) the troop should drop its flame wall to block access.
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What nosig says is true. But it is also true that the troop that occupies a 20'x20' square can be adjusted to a different shape (as it says so in the troop rules).
Personally, both times I ran it, I had them switch to two ranks of eight, filling two rows between the 'horns' in front of the trapdoor.
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I ran this at low tier.
My party's response to the mass combat was overwhelmingly negative. One person actually went outside and sat in her car for an hour after her army was defeated in the second encounter. I actually had to call Engagement 2 in my favor since the rift drakes would have torn everyone a new one. Also, they were tired of not playing their characters.
I let the party do half damage to the troop with weapons, but I didn't see that stated anywhere. I made the assumption because I would have just murdered them all otherwise since they had very little AOE damage. One person used the horns as cover and another stayed 85 feet away. I'm glad I forgot about the automatic melee damage or I probably would have killed the cavalier who was able to do almost nothing since she was eating the fire and crossbows.
In the last fight, I lost initiative, so they were able to pile in and dump a bunch of damage onto him. He did manage to fly out, however. But once I did his vanish then hydraulic push tactic, I called the fight because a couple readied actions were going off and they had all their regular turns to go.
I still enjoyed the scenario. I want Paizo to keep making inventive scenarios like this. However, I don't think mass combat is good for PFS.
P.S. On a more personal note, I was very disappointed that this was not the 7-11, as I stacked all of the boons on my high level riftwarden.
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I let the party do half damage to the troop with weapons, but I didn't see that stated anywhere. I made the assumption because I would have just murdered them all otherwise since they had very little AOE damage.
They should have taken full damage, as the Troop subtype does not mention any immunity to weapon damage, as the Swarm subtype does. Troops are composed of Small or Medium creatures, and the half damage rule for swarms is for swarms of Tiny creatures.
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I let the party do half damage to the troop with weapons, but I didn't see that stated anywhere. I made the assumption because I would have just murdered them all otherwise since they had very little AOE damage.They should have taken full damage, as the Troop subtype does not mention any immunity to weapon damage, as the Swarm subtype does. Troops are composed of Small or Medium creatures, and the half damage rule for swarms is for swarms of Tiny creatures.
Oops. However, that wouldn't have changed the fight dramatically. I would have had one less round of shooting (after I had already dropped the cavalier). Also, I didn't move the troop at all since I was in a bit of a hurry after the mass combat ate up so much time.
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P.S. On a more personal note, I was very disappointed that this was not the 7-11, as I stacked all of the boons on my high level riftwarden.
You are aware that as a player in this scenario, you can use the relevant army boons that ANY of your characters have earned (regardless of which PC you actually play the scenario with), right?
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P.S. On a more personal note, I was very disappointed that this was not the 7-11, as I stacked all of the boons on my high level riftwarden.You are aware that as a player in this scenario, you can use the relevant army boons that ANY of your characters have earned (regardless of which PC you actually play the scenario with), right?
That still doesn't address his desire to lead the armies with the character that actually earned those boons.
I am aware. I will be playing this with my cleric of Irori, which will actually work better for me mechanically since he has a +5 Charisma mod as opposed to my riftwarden's +2.
And I suppose I shouldn't have used the word "very" since my riftwarden got a proper sendoff in Legacy of the Stonelords.
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When I ran this I had a sound striker bard pre-roll his 8 or 9 attacks on the troop, all ready to go to remind me that these attacks are treated as weapon damage effects which will affect troops.
I ended up having to have a rules argument (not the same thing as a discussion) about troops being flat out immune to effects that affect a specific number of targets, just like swarms are. I was prepared to 'bend the rules' and treat his prolific number of sound strikes he could perform as an AOE rather than strictly by RAW as attacks on discrete targets. He didn't want to do only 1 attack's worth of damage, not even with the +50% adjustment, so I ended up having to not let him use the ability on the troop at all. He wasn't happy, but the rules lawyers of PFS surely will rejoice at hearing about our pain at having gone through the rules dispute.