|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is more for personal reference but opinions are welcome.
I didn't really like the versions of Cap I had seen on the various boards. Most never touched on the visual aspect of his style beyond 'Shield bash' and having a throwing shield. Many of them are also a good bit dated or bogged down with perennial rules discussion. So I thought this might be fun and extremely party friendly and wanted to optimize it. Feel free to post your suggestions in case there is something I might have missed, overlooked or gave too much/not enough consideration over. This is being considered as one of two candidates for this Saturdays pfs.
Human: Ranger (Skirmisher) 7, Fighter (Brawler) 4. Not sure about Freebooter.
Stats: Whatever you want. I dumped charisma, started with 18 str and 14/15 in Dex and Con. Wisdom is at 12 or so.
Skirmisher levels-
1.) Power Attack
1.) Two-Weapon Fighting (Human)
2.) Shield Slam (Ranger Style)
3.) Opening Volley
5.) Weapon Focus: Shield
6.) Shield Master (Ranger Style)
7.) Point Blank Shot
Brawler Levels-
8.) Target of Opportunity (Teamwork)
9.) Equipment Trick: Shield (Fighter)
9.) Lookout (Teamwork)
11.) Weapon Specialization: Shield (Fighter)
11.) Throw Anything or Deadly Aim or Dodge or Close Quarters Thrower.
Favored enemies (2): Humanoid (Human), Outsider (Evil) or Undead.
Skills: Perception, Acrobatics, whatever else you feel fits the theme. You have 7+ points per level. But don't forget about Equipment Trick: Shield.
Ranger Tricks: Vengeance Strike, Surprise Shift.
Hunters Bond: Companions.
Equipment: Ring of Tactical Precision, Called property on shield (and whatever else you want), Belt of Mighty Hurling. This character has access to a Braid of the Master. The other candidate can use it for the ac bonus, though. All other equipment is optional.
The teamwork feats are powerful, particularly Target of Opportunity. You can unload a good deal of damage with this if your ally fires first and hits, letting you shoot. If you hit, your ally gets another shot before continuing with their full attack.
Without a level of Cavalier, we use a ring of tactical precision and give the ring (and the feat use) to an ally with a ranged weapon. If there is no one else who uses ranged attacks we have Lookout to enhance party survival or we could take precise strike to work with another melee character.
Ranger tricks are awesome and the two we grabbed focused on damage dealing and maneuverability. There are other goodies to choose and if you want more versatility. You can easily take hobbling attack, aiding attack, tangling attack or upending strike, for instance.
This build can produce large amounts of damage and attacks from unexpected situations. If a particular ally hits with a ranged attack or any ally is hit while you are adjacent to an enemy, you get a free attack as an immediate action at your highest bab. You are already two weapon fighting which gives you one additional attack when you get to take a full attack action but even better, every time you bash with your shield you get a free bull rush attempt. And don't forget that because of Opening Volley (probably your most powerful feat) you should almost always be power attacking and rarely miss on iteratives: You are incredibly consistent with your attacks. In fact, you should always be attacking at a bonus. First: Shield Master removes your Two-Weapon Fighting penalties with the shield and then it gives you a bonus to hit and damage. Second: as long as you use your offhand attack as the first attack after a ranged attack, you get a +4 to hit with it netting you a total bonus of +2 instead of the usual -2. You are hitting more often than normal, harder than normal and in more situations that are normally allowed. And when facing down the boss, you two hand the shield for even more damage. Remember also that power attack won't penalize your shield throws. :)
Awesome! I've always been enamored by Captain America/Andoran builds. It's such a cool concept!
Just curious, what's the second weapon for the TWF? Most builds I see include IUS, but I don't see it. Do Brawlers get it for free?
|
|
The second weapon is a cestus or brass knuckles. I miss read the braid of a hundred masters as it just gives unarmed damage and not proficiency.
@blackblood troll If cap isn't throwing punches is he still cap? I personally felt the answer was 'no' and all the kids in my neighborhood had problems imagining him without punching. This ultimately made me realize that if I was building cap, he needed to punch and use a shield.
When I made him I had some sets of criteria: what it takes to be effective and what it takes to count as being cap. Punching, Shield Fighting, Shield Throwing, Party Support, Rapid Attacks and Agility were all absolute minimum requirements for him to be Captain America. Cutting any of them makes him feel noticeably less so. You can ignore everything else about the guy but these traits are the visual experience that makes up Cap. In Pathfinder, it was paramount that I included every last one of them. People have to feel that you're cap with every action you take. So when I tried to free up a feat slot so I could two hand the shield-I was screwed and had to keep it since I had no other way to punch or get my extra attacks.
@Esper Magic,
I debated over fighter but that quickly entered the 'complicated' realm where I had dipped monk, cavalier and ranger as well as having fighter levels and had him min/maxed. This character started (alongside a barbarian) as a thought experiment to see if I could make a simple character. There is a running joke in pfs that I will surprise everyone and show up some day with something simple like a fighter. Ta DA!
In this case fighter was a lot more limited and inflexible than I wanted. Sure, they can grab a few more feats (actually they get 13 feats by 11th level and this build gets 12) but you also had to wait for the good feats, had no skill flexibility, no class skills to work with, no ability to do anything for your allies and it honestly felt a little underwhelming, never mind untrue to Caps image.
Ranger seemed to represent his training better and if you consider freebooter (Although Tactician fighter works as well) he really has some of the leadership elements. Then the tricks kick in and more than make up for the single feat we are behind a pure fighter.
Also, I keep hearing that rangers are better than fighters. There are tons of fighter guides and almost no ranger guides. So this would be a blind test.
|
Personally, if combining Ranger with something for Captain America, I'd make that something either Paladin (but you're dumping Charisma) or Sohei Monk.
Two-handing the shield is also better than TWF most times, and that's what I'd go with. Cap mostly fights with his fists when the shield's gone for whatever reason, and Sohei lets you do that without even needing a weapon. So go for it. I'll also note that a +5 Bashing Heavy Shield with +1 Returning Shield Spikes is the correct way to represent Cap's Shield. For the record.
Looks good, only thing I'd add is a Deflect Arrows ability!
|
|
@maouse equipment trick:shield let's you enter total defense to hide behind your shield and get cover. You just need the skill prerequisites (escape artist 5, I believe).
I forgot to add improved shield bash on the list. I always forget that feat in every build. *sigh*
@Deadmanwalking
Fighter beats sohei here. It is mechanically superior for our needs and doesn't add features we don't use.
Paladin is awesome if you go Sacred Shield. You only need/want a level. But cavaliers tactician ability feels more authentic and again, doesn't saddle you with mechanical options that don't quite fit cap. Power-wise, the paladin may be the way to go, though. But then you have to figure out the stats.
Cap throws his shield a lot. Every round or every other round. There are enough situations where his shield is gone for the rest of the round (throw shield and use swift action on something other than calling it back) where he is stuck using the cestus. On that note he probably needs one on his shield hand, too. Second, there are fights where you don't want to destroy everything utterly and it is nice to fling out the punches and such while other people mop up. And this cap only gets a str of about 20 unless we blow some serious cash for 22 (belt of mighty hurling means we need an ioun stone +4 str or a greater belt of mighty hurling a expensive stuff). So the difference in Damage from 2-handed and not is 2 points. Our offhand attacks deal 1d4+2+ weapon enhancement bonus. So we do more damage two weapon fighting unless we really need the 'to hit' bonuses more.
Feat progression edit
To make room for improved shield bash remove Lookout from our list and replace it with point blank shot. Move opening volley and weapon focus down into the next available feat slots. Put improved shield bash into the third level feat slot. This way it comes early enough to matter and you're not being murdered for your entire career as you shield bash and then lose large amounts of ac.
|
Our offhand attacks deal 1d4+2+ weapon enhancement bonus. So we do more damage two weapon fighting unless we really need the 'to hit' bonuses more.
Not really... First of all, power attack gives +3 for Two-Handing the shield. Secondly, The shield should be doing 2d6 + 1.5STR bonus base damage. (Heavy Bashing Spiked Shield)
|
|
Spikes change how the shield works and impact the throwing aspect, if memory serves. If I were to use a spiked shield, I would change the combat style entirely and give him spiked armor and make him Captain Chekial, etc.
I did consider this. In that case, fighter was better, probably.
But I wanted Cap. So no spikes. And I wanted whatever the advantage for not hurling a spiked shield over a normal one, though I honestly do not recall the what or why.
As a side note, I am having a heluva time determining if freebooter is worth it or not. In pfs I think if my favors enemies are humans, Evil outsiders and/or undead, that freebooter will be pointless 90% of the time since the favored enemy bonuses will come up in almost every single scenario. Giving my group half of that bonus sounds extremely solid.
But for a move action, giving all allies +1 or +2 against a single target....always works but a far inferior bonus. The only saving grace is that, from what I read in the crb, I could move action to activate- five foot step before during or after the activation- sudden shift as a swift action and move five more feet- then full attack as Cap has only taken a five foot step, despite having covers ten feet of distance and used a move action ability.
That just sounds incredibly awesome.
Either way, I am having a time of it in making this decision.
|
|
With the advent of the advance class guide and the specific nod given to martials and unarmed fighters in particular, I thought it was time to revisit this.
The ACG introduced a brawler archetype called the shield champion. I did not necessarily see anything inherent to it that makes or breaks a captain america build, however, the brawler class itself certainly adds a lot to the concept with better skill points, martial flexibility and passive dodge bonuses, two weapon fighting and a focus on the close weapon group.
So let us see what we have.
Human Ranger (Skirmisher) 7/Fighter (Brawler) 2/Brawler 2.
LG Medium humanoid (human)
--------------------
Health87 (11d10+22)
Speed30 feet.
Initiative+4
Stealth+17
Perception+16
--------------------
Defense
AC 33+(8 armor, 5 shield, 2 deflection, 2 natural, 3 Dex, 1 Luck, 1 insight, +1 trait)
Flat: 30
Touch: 18
CMD: 29 (11 Bab, 5 Str, 3 Dex, 10 base).
Fort:+13, Ref:+11, Will:+4
--------------------
--------------------
Special Attacks
Vengeance Strike, Surprise Shift 5x/day total.
Feats
.Power Attack
.Improved Shield Bash (Human Bonus)
.Shield Slam (Ranger Style)
.Opening Volley
.Endurance (Ranger Bonus Feat)
.Weapon Focus: Shield
.Target of Opportunity (Teamwork)
.Shield Master (Ranger Style)
.Point Blank Shot
.Equipment Trick: Shield
.Throw Anything
.Deadly Aim*
.Close Quarters Thrower*
.Open Slot
--------------------
Statistics
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14 Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +11; CMB +16; CMD 29
Traits Defender of the Society, ??????
Skills
Perception+16
Stealth+17
Survival+13
Sense Motive+16
Acrobatics+17
Climb+13
Escape Artist+13
Swim+13
Diplomacy+12
Profession: Soldier+14
Knowledge Engineering+15
--------------------
Special Abilities
Track
Wild Empathy
Combat Style (Shield)
Hunter's Bond (Companions)
Favored Enemy: Humanoid (Human), Outsider (Evil).
Favored Terrain: Forest, Plains, Underground or Urban (pick 1).
Woodland Stride
Martial Flexibility
Brawlers Cunning
Martial Training
Brawlers Flurry
--------------------
Equipment
+2 Mithril Breastplate (can add brawling), +2 Heavy Mithril Bashing Called shield (can add more enhancements), +2 Belt of Mighty Hurling, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +2, Ring of Tactical Precision, Cracked Dusty Rose Prism, Dusty Rose Prism.
I didn't calculate his offense or add all possible or even reasonable gear like a cloak of resistance. So some bonuses are much lower than they could be (stealth and perception can easily be +5 higher). The loss of fighter level 3 royally sucks but Brawlers flurry is worth it- you deal more damage two weapon fighting than two handing (adding full Str bonus on the offhand) and you get free unarmed strike feat and damage as well. The captain America-specific features that we need are all here.
That said, is there any new gear we are missing that helps or specific enhancements? Any feat paths to take considering Martial Flexibility is an option?
Also, anyone have a build using the Shield Champion or regular brawler yet? I'm curious to see what sorts of ideas people have now considering all of the new toys. I still think that the ranger is not only a great candidate but is still competing for best candidate, though that may simply not be the case. If it isn't, please prove me wrong. Show me a far superior captain america in brawler form (or mostly brawler form) if you can. And yeah, I know, this guys will save makes him a puppet. :)
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Probably not pfs compatible but anyway:
Captain America
NG Human Shield Champion [Brawler] 12
Abilities: Unarmed Damage or Shield damage (2d6), Brawler Cunning, Martial Flexibility (Immediate action), Martial Training, Brawler's Furry, AC Bonus+2, Knockout 2/day, Throw Shield, Returning Shield.
Feats:Improved Unarmed Strike (b), Exotic weapon proficiency: Throwing Shield (1), Improved Shield Bash(b), Shield Focus(b), Power Attack(3),Combat Expertise(5), Weapon Focus (Medium Shield)(b), Greater Weapon (Medium Shield) (7),Shield Slam(b), Weapon Specialization (Medium Shield) (9), Greater Weapon Specialization (medium shield) (11), Shield Master(b), Improved Critical (Medium Shield)(b)
Notes:
-Put all your gold into your shield...seriously with the lack of brawler's strike, you'll need to make your shield magic asap, preferably a +3 shield as soon as possible to bypass most damage reduction. Making it Adamantine is very thematic. Making the shield deflecting is optional and would only do it when my shield is a least a +3 adamantine.
-Shield damage power spike at level 12, when you can use your unarmed strike damage for your shield damage.
-Use martial flexibility when you actually need to gain a maneuver, like improved grapple/trip etc...don't forget Equipment tricks (Shield), very great use of martial flexibility in general. In early levels (level 1-2), I would recommend to use it for deadly aim or power attack depending of your needs.
-If you can retrain, I'll get rid of throwing shield as soon as you hit level 3, since it's when shield champion ability kicks in.
-Still not very clear if brawler qualifies to some of the shields feats without TWF since it technically only works when you are using Brawler's furry if that's not the case, drop missile shield, you can always access it with martial flexibility.
Probably not pfs compatible but anyway:
Captain America
NG Human Shield Champion [Brawler] 12
Abilities: Unarmed Damage or Shield damage (2d6), Brawler Cunning, Martial Flexibility (Immediate action), Martial Training, Brawler's Furry, AC Bonus+2, Knockout 2/day, Throw Shield, Returning Shield.
Feats:Improved Unarmed Strike (b), Exotic weapon proficiency: Throwing Shield (1), Improved Shield Bash(b), Shield Focus(b), Power Attack(3),Combat Expertise(5), Weapon Focus (Medium Shield)(b), Greater Weapon (Medium Shield) (7),Shield Slam(b), Weapon Specialization (Medium Shield) (9), Greater Weapon Specialization (medium shield) (11), Shield Master(b), Improved Critical (Medium Shield)(b)
Notes:
-Put all your gold into your shield...seriously with the lack of brawler's strike, you'll need to make your shield magic asap, preferably a +3 shield as soon as possible to bypass most damage reduction. Making it Adamantine is very thematic. Making the shield deflecting is optional and would only do it when my shield is a least a +3 adamantine.
-Shield damage power spike at level 12, when you can use your unarmed strike damage for your shield damage.
-Use martial flexibility when you actually need to gain a maneuver, like improved grapple/trip etc...don't forget Equipment tricks (Shield), very great use of martial flexibility in general. In early levels (level 1-2), I would recommend to use it for deadly aim or power attack depending of your needs.
-If you can retrain, I'll get rid of throwing shield as soon as you hit level 3, since it's when shield champion ability kicks in.
-Still not very clear if brawler qualifies to some of the shields feats without TWF since it technically only works when you are using Brawler's furry if that's not the case, drop missile shield, you can always access it with martial flexibility.
I consider this a pretty much perfect representation of Cap. About the only thing I can think to add would be proficiency in firearms, for the occasions when he decides to rock a gun.
|
|
Yep, with the advent of Shield Champion it's clearly the correct way to make Captain America. Maybe dipping a few levels Paladin for thematic reasons (4 levels of Oath of Vengeance gives you some mechanical ones too, with Smite Evil several times a day, plus ridiculous Saves, and delays Brawler stuff but doesn't actually cost you much of any of the Shield Champion things).
-Put all your gold into your shield...seriously with the lack of brawler's strike, you'll need to make your shield magic asap, preferably a +3 shield as soon as possible to bypass most damage reduction. Making it Adamantine is very thematic. Making the shield deflecting is optional and would only do it when my shield is a least a +3 adamantine.
The real problem with the Shield Champion is that you don't get shield master until 11th. That leaves you high and dry without brawler's strike. You'd probably need to pick up a cestus or some other interim solution to actually hurt things for a lot of levels.
So basically you can enchant your shield as a weapon in addition to it being enchanted for AC, but then you will have wasted that money the moment you hit 11th.
I've tried making builds of this, but the fact that it only comes together after 11th rather takes the wind out of my sails.
|
|
-Put all your gold into your shield...seriously with the lack of brawler's strike, you'll need to make your shield magic asap, preferably a +3 shield as soon as possible to bypass most damage reduction. Making it Adamantine is very thematic. Making the shield deflecting is optional and would only do it when my shield is a least a +3 adamantine.The real problem with the Shield Champion is that you don't get shield master until 11th. That leaves you high and dry without brawler's strike. You'd probably need to pick up a cestus or some other interim solution to actually hurt things for a lot of levels.
So basically you can enchant your shield as a weapon in addition to it being enchanted for AC, but then you will have wasted that money the moment you hit 11th.
I've tried making builds of this, but the fact that it only comes together after 11th rather takes the wind out of my sails.
True the build doesn't come into his own until level 11+ with this archetype but well while i can understand, it's a bit disappointing for people usually playing in the low levels,but to be fair most superheroics are roughly the equivalent of level 12+ in dnd with people like Thor being 15+ easily. I would mostly refer to a dragon magazine article about conversion in general, mentioning that if you want to play avengers, it's not great to play the game at level 2-3, which I agree with.
|
|
So what does ranger bring to the table that the brawler doesn't?
2 more skill points per level- Meh
Early access to two important and powerful feats-Rather important.
Ranger Tricks- Cool and powerful but limited.
Favored Enemy- Plenty of damage.
Favored Enemy = Brawlers Flurry + Close Weapon Mastery for damage.
Early Access = Brawler Bonus Feats + ?
Ranger Tricks = Throw Shield
Martial Versatility isn't really matched.
So that said, I can see how the brawler is a simpler choice and in some ways better choice. Is there any compelling reason to take a ranger instead of a Brawler or alongside a Brawler? The early access loses relevance later on when the brawler gets those as bonus feats which would then be wasted.
I think pure ranger, pure shield champion or ranger brawler (no champion archetype), or ranger shield champion are the best bets for optimizing this. I just can't settle on the best level combination to justify any decision made.
The early access seems to be a significant and potent selling point for the ranger, though. Above all else, being able to shield slam and use shield master by 6th level is just really good and extremely relevant. But is it enough to bother with levels of ranger at all? Let's assume you're playing in Pfs. Levels 1-11 are going to really influence decision weight, I think.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
OK, here is a shot at a Brawler based build for cap.
Human Brawler (Shield Champion) 11.
LG Medium humanoid (human)
Feats
1.) Improved Unarmed Strike (Brawler Bonus)
1.) Improved Shield Bash (Human Bonus)
1.) Power Attack
2.) Two-Weapon Fighting (Brawler Bonus)
2.) Opening Volley (Brawler Bonus)
3.) Shield Focus
5.) Point Blank Shot (Brawler Bonus)
5.) Combat Expertise
7.) Shield Slam
8.) Close Quarters Thrower (Brawler Bonus)
9.) Greater Shield Focus (Shield Champion Bonus)
9.) Deadly Aim
11.) Shield Master (Shield Champion Bonus)
11.) Weapon Focus: Shield (Brawler Bonus)
--------------------
Statistics
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 14 Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 7
Traits Defender of the Society, ??????
--------------------
Special Abilities
Returning Shield (Returning Weapon Property for thrown shields).
Throw Shield (Far Shot feat for shield range purposes)
Martial Flexibility 8/day
Martial Training (level counts as fighter and monk for feat prereqs)
Brawlers Cunning (int treated as 13 for feat prereqs)
Ac Bonus +2 (dodge bonus to ac and cmd)
Knockout 2/day DC 20 fort.
Close Weapon Mastery 1d8 (Close weapons deal 1d8 or better damage).
Brawlers Flurry (Awesome form of Two-Weapon Fighting)
This one clearly has some advantages over the ranger but an important thing to note is that they both have the same number of feats and the ranger 'goes off' a lot sooner than the brawler. Shield champion actually adds little to the ranger build and regular Brawler or Exemplar are stronger choices, mechanically. A lot of shield champion features mitigate the need to burn feat slots and martial flexibility is pretty great.
Offensively and defensively the Brawler has more Martial Flexibility uses and knockout as well as an additional attack per full attack followed by a slightly higher touch ac (but not quite as good of a regular ac). The ranger, has tricks which can spike their damage and combined with favored enemy or boon companion can readily compensate for 2-3 feats from Martial Flexibility, despite the limited use per day in comparison.
The brawler is a fair bit more flexible in feat selection and gets progressively more potent and ridiculous in later levels such as 12-19.
Compared to a pure ranger version, the Brawler definitely is the stronger overall choice. However if you begin to multiclassing, I do not think that Brawler makes the stronger core. Rangers early access feats, larger skill selection, additional skill points, growing number of and uses of skirmisher tricks combined with favored enemy do a surprising job of keeping up while simultaneously being friendly to dipping more so than brawler. Brawlers get good and useful things at nearly every level. Everything good about the ranger is spread out five levels apart or comes rather late. you lose very little for leaving the class but gain quite a lot for dipping into others.
Anyway, that's all I got so far. I really thought the brawler might stand out more from the ranger and make it obsolete but it hardly seems to as long as your ranger dips fighter and/or brawler. If not dipping ranger 5/Brawler 5 has some potential depending on what you're going for. Otherwise pure Brawler or ranger-dipped seem the optimal choices.