Sythesist Summoners make damn good fighters too... by level 20 having a +8 bonus to Str/Dex and +16 to AC BEFORE applying any evolutions or feats or items can get really nasty. Add in that you can have a huge Cha, so getting Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) for another +6 Str is easy and you will have plenty of spells, of which the Summoner has a rediculous spell list...
Sure, the Synthesist falls behind the Master Summoner in pure capability (Action Economy is king, and no one beats the Master Summoner in Action economy... especially if he has Quicken SLA...)
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That's not the question. The question is "Which class is better assuming Anzyr is playing both of them." And guess what, when I play a Druid and a Fighter, the Druid is going to be more effective. Because I know more about Druids then Fighters? Nope! It's because Druid is a better class for being a melee then a Fighter.
It may not be the answer you want, but the most effective player is the one who stops worrying about the perceived limits of the class and uses all available tools.
Class will strongly influence play style, but it does not place an absolute limit on any character. The player that realizes this will will be the most effective, regardless of class chosen.
the most effective player
Key word is player.
What's the most effective class though? That's what was asked.
Sythesist Summoners make damn good fighters too... by level 20 having a +8 bonus to Str/Dex and +16 to AC BEFORE applying any evolutions or feats or items can get really nasty. Add in that you can have a huge Cha, so getting Eldritch Heritage (abyssal) for another +6 Str is easy and you will have plenty of spells, of which the Summoner has a rediculous spell list...
Sure, the Synthesist falls behind the Master Summoner in pure capability (Action Economy is king, and no one beats the Master Summoner in Action economy... especially if he has Quicken SLA...)
True, but a synthesist is more playable.
Master summoners take player skill to actually play in a reasonable amount of time.
You know, in the original post, the poster calls out for all things being equal.
That would cover things like optimization, gear, feats etc.
So assuming all classes had equal levels of optimal feat selection, class ability selection, optimal gear selection, and all classes played in the most optimal way...
Which class is the best martial?
This isn't necessarily which build is the best (as a Horizon Walker is pretty scary, but that's a multiclass), which single class is head and above all others?
My money is on either the Barbarian or the Paladin. Either of those two are terrifying sights on the battlefield.
Actually it's more like "You can't play Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris plays World of Warcraft."I'm saddened that no one has said "Chuck Norris"You can't play Chuck Norris, Chuck Norris plays you.
Chuck Norris doesn't play anything, he wins.
Back to my night elf Mohawk in barrens chat...
You know, in the original post, the poster calls out for all things being equal.
That would cover things like optimization, gear, feats etc.
So assuming all classes had equal levels of optimal feat selection, class ability selection, optimal gear selection, and all classes played in the most optimal way...
Which class is the best martial?
This isn't necessarily which build is the best (as a Horizon Walker is pretty scary, but that's a multiclass), which single class is head and above all others?
My money is on either the Barbarian or the Paladin. Either of those two are terrifying sights on the battlefield.
Idk... a Synthesist Summoner is nasty... a half-elf Sythesist Summoner is even more mean (geting an extra 10 Evo points is mean... and if you take the Wild Caller archetype as well you effectively double your pool). The Synthesist is the only martial capable of laying down a literal wall of natural attacks while having Ex or Su flight, and have a stupid huge AC without having to invest in a +4 enchantment (wild). On top of that, the Synthesist is the most merciful for any point buy, since they can more or less ignore their physical stats in preference for their mental and still be as strong as a Barb...
So which class is best at melee combat all things being equal?At low level, all other things being equal, I would say the druid. With a focus on strength and enough wisdom for casting buff, area control and summons you are a perfectly effective melee combatant yourself and you bring a range of extra versatility along with your own pocket fighter.
At mid level the druid continues to be extremely effective as they not only add powerful wild shape forms but they have a wide range of useful buffs, excellent area control and a large number of summons. At this level (8-12) they are also joined by the Oracle and Cleric which can both be exceptional melee combatants who also bring potent buffs and area denial.
At high level all three remain crazily powerful martials if build that way. Druids perhaps fall a little way behind as animal summons don't scale as well as others and the cleric personal buff spells are generally better than the druid ones. Auto fearing any creature that hits you without a save or spell resistance is incredibly potent (Druids also get it but as a polymorph effect they have to give up wild shape to use it).
Actually at low levels all summoners are probably stronger... they have a stronger spell list and they have an Animal Companion+
Once the druid gets Wild Shape it moves a little to the druid, then back to the summoner when he gets access to SM IV...
In other words... Druidzilla reborn.... or reincarnated, if you will.Idk... a Synthesist Summoner is nasty... a half-elf Sythesist Summoner is even more mean (geting an extra 10 Evo points is mean... and if you take the Wild Caller archetype as well you effectively double your pool). The Synthesist is the only martial capable of laying down a literal wall of natural attacks while having Ex or Su flight, and have a stupid huge AC without having to invest in a +4 enchantment (wild). On top of that, the Synthesist is the most merciful for any point buy, since they can more or less ignore their physical stats in preference for their mental and still be as strong as a Barb...You know, in the original post, the poster calls out for all things being equal.
That would cover things like optimization, gear, feats etc.
So assuming all classes had equal levels of optimal feat selection, class ability selection, optimal gear selection, and all classes played in the most optimal way...
Which class is the best martial?
This isn't necessarily which build is the best (as a Horizon Walker is pretty scary, but that's a multiclass), which single class is head and above all others?
My money is on either the Barbarian or the Paladin. Either of those two are terrifying sights on the battlefield.
Pretty much... Sythesist is literally Druidzilla 2.0... Except now you can build whatever abilities you want... Want Pounce? no Problem. Rake? Sure. Rend? Why not?
That's not the question. The question is "Which class is better assuming Anzyr is playing both of them." And guess what, when I play a Druid and a Fighter, the Druid is going to be more effective. Because I know more about Druids then Fighters? Nope! It's because Druid is a better class for being a melee then a Fighter.It may not be the answer you want, but the most effective player is the one who stops worrying about the perceived limits of the class and uses all available tools.
Class will strongly influence play style, but it does not place an absolute limit on any character. The player that realizes this will will be the most effective, regardless of class chosen.
I must disagree, as the most effective player is the one who knows the value of all their options and uses them effectively. A player whose character lacks the ability to fly when it is needed is not as effective as one who can for example. And I would very much like to see you restat those Fighters as Druids. Whats the worst that could happen? You find out that you can make more effective builds?
IMO, making a melee character is one of the most frustrating aspects of Pathfinder. Traditionally, the fighter or "weaponmaster" is one of my favorite classes in fantasy RPGs. Though, at this point, the fighter has fallen so far behind the other Full BAB classes that it's laughable.
This forum seems to have a love affair with rangers, but... meh. I've attempted to make one for various games on several occasions, but never came up with a build I was happy with. They have a lot going on for them, but that's also their weakness. They're just spread too thing amongst all their various features.
Barbarians are very solid mechanically, and most likely the standard for melees in Pathfinder. Unfortunately, I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the flavor of barbarians. Their rage powers have gotten so out of hand that there is no way I can justify it in an RP sense. They're far more supernatural than martial at this point.
Paladins... not going to lock myself into a LG character, pass.
All in all, I would have to say my favorite melee class is the Summoner. I've found through experience the synergy between a well built summoner and eidolon can flat out be scary. In addition, the summoner winds up being a solid buffer for his eidolon and the party as a whole. Not to mention the battlefield control one brings to the table as well.
IMO, making a melee character is one of the most frustrating aspects of Pathfinder. Traditionally, the fighter or "weaponmaster" is one of my favorite classes in fantasy RPGs. Though, at this point, the fighter has fallen so far behind the other Full BAB classes that it's laughable.
This forum seems to have a love affair with rangers, but... meh. I've attempted to make one for various games on several occasions, but never came up with a build I was happy with. They have a lot going on for them, but that's also their weakness. They're just spread too thing amongst all their various features.
Barbarians are very solid mechanically, and most likely the standard for melees in Pathfinder. Unfortunately, I HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE, HATE the flavor of barbarians. Their rage powers have gotten so out of hand that there is no way I can justify it in an RP sense. They're far more supernatural than martial at this point.
Paladins... not going to lock myself into a LG character, pass.
All in all, I would have to say my favorite melee class is the Summoner. I've found through experience the synergy between a well built summoner and eidolon can flat out be scary. In addition, the summoner winds up being a solid buffer for his eidolon and the party as a whole. Not to mention the battlefield control one brings to the table as well.
You might check out the Slayer when it comes out.
Samurai makes best fighter - sword vs world, batting with skill, tactics, strategy and resolve - fighting to survive instead of being given free candy in god mode and needing battling to succeed and survive with martial skill as opposed to mystical nonsense rubbish that happens to be powerful and all together unrealistic even in a magical fantasy context.. getting xp as a person and becoming a man as opposed to being a commoner whose character is unstoppable but at the cost of becoming softer in real life.
PS anyone know what this refers to: "don't scale as well as others and the cleric personal buff spells are generally better than the druid ones. Auto fearing any creature that hits you without a save or spell resistance is incredibly potent (Druids also get it but as a polymorph effect they have to give up wild shape to use it)."
Of course if a melee druid is the first thing that hits you, you're probably dead.
Of course if a melee druid is the first thing that hits you, you're probably dead.Samurai makes best fighter - sword vs world, batting with skill, tactics, strategy and resolve - fighting to survive instead of being given free candy in god mode and needing battling to succeed and survive with martial skill as opposed to mystical nonsense rubbish that happens to be powerful and all together unrealistic even in a magical fantasy context.. getting xp as a person and becoming a man as opposed to being a commoner whose character is unstoppable but at the cost of becoming softer in real life.
PS anyone know what this refers to: "don't scale as well as others and the cleric personal buff spells are generally better than the druid ones. Auto fearing any creature that hits you without a save or spell resistance is incredibly potent (Druids also get it but as a polymorph effect they have to give up wild shape to use it)."
Curse you pounce and your ability to make full attacks on a charge instead of having to deal with losing most of your damage when you move more than 10 feet!
So what about the horizon walker makes it do some much damage?
So what about the horizon walker makes it do some much damage?
Terrain Dominance lets you treat your Favored Terrain bonus as Favored Enemy when fighting creatures native to that terrain.
But you only get 3 times dominance yes? Dosent that leave you not so hot in several places. I undestand that you take the rogue talent favored terrain several times to get a high bonus yes?
But you only get 3 times dominance yes? Dosent that leave you not so hot in several places. I undestand that you take the rogue talent favored terrain several times to get a high bonus yes?
Correct. But you'd be hard pressed to not fight either Urban, Mountain or Underground native creatures. You're also still a 19 BAB Character with amazing skills.
And with instant enemy shenanigans you can select Favored Terrain Aquatic and Instant Enemy them as Aquatic since it treats them as your Favored enemy for all purposes which can include their native terrain.
But you only get 3 times dominance yes? Dosent that leave you not so hot in several places. I undestand that you take the rogue talent favored terrain several times to get a high bonus yes?Correct. But you'd be hard pressed to not fight either Urban, Mountain or Underground native creatures. You're also still a 19 BAB Character with amazing skills.
And with instant enemy shenanigans you can select Favored Terrain Aquatic and Instant Enemy them as Aquatic since it treats them as your Favored enemy for all purposes which can include their native terrain.
That doesn't work, because Instant Enemy only lets you treat a creature as a different creature type. Native Terrain is an entirely separate part of a creature's stat block that doesn't interact with that spell.
You use 'aquatic' because aquatic is a creature type, and all aquatic creatures have a terrain of 'water'.
Ergo, works fine.
==Aelryinth
But you only get 3 times dominance yes? Dosent that leave you not so hot in several places. I undestand that you take the rogue talent favored terrain several times to get a high bonus yes?Correct. But you'd be hard pressed to not fight either Urban, Mountain or Underground native creatures. You're also still a 19 BAB Character with amazing skills.
And with instant enemy shenanigans you can select Favored Terrain Aquatic and Instant Enemy them as Aquatic since it treats them as your Favored enemy for all purposes which can include their native terrain.
*Slow clap*
This is wonderful and makes me really really want to try out that Terrain Dominance Build. And the Instant Enemy (Aquatic)... fantastic.
You use 'aquatic' because aquatic is a creature type, and all aquatic creatures have a terrain of 'water'.
Ergo, works fine.
==Aelryinth
No, it doesn't work because you're looking at two completely separate parts of the creature's stat block.
The spell says:
"With this spell you designate the target as your favored enemy for the remainder of its duration. Select one of your favored enemy types. For the duration of the spell, you treat the target as if it were that type of favored enemy for all purposes."
Favored Enemy says:
"At 1st level, a ranger selects a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table."
The table lists the following: Aberration, Animal, Construct, Dragon, Fey, Humanoid (by subtype), Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Outsider (by subtype), Plant, Undead, Vermin.
Therefore, when you choose a favored enemy, you are choosing a Type. When you use Instant Enemy, you are choosing a favored enemy, which means you are choosing a Type.
You can pick Humanoid (Gnoll) as the type, but the actual creature, Gnoll (which are from plains or desert), is not the only creature of that Type.
For example, I could make a Human with the Racial Heritage feat and gain the Gnoll subtype, making me a Humanoid (Human, Gnoll).
Anyway, the point is, with Instant Enemy, you choose a favored enemy, which is a Type, not a creature. And Terrain Dominance does not care about creature types, it only affects specific creatures native to that terrain.
Correct Darigaaz. The nice thing is that all Humanoid(Aquatic) type creatures are all native to the Aquatic terrain.
Doesn't matter if they are, the spell doesn't let you change the effective native terrain, only the effective creature type.
native terrain is not a property of creature type. Changing what creature type it counts as does not affect this.
Just checking here, is Favored Enemy a class feature that can be retrained? This build takes a long time to really come online.
Yes and yeah thats one of the big issues. Till 9th level, you're essentially just a Fighter with better skills.
Doesn't matter if they are, the spell doesn't let you change the effective native terrain, only the effective creature type.
native terrain is not a property of creature type. Changing what creature type it counts as does not affect this.
Are you saying Humanoid(Aquatic) creatures are not native to Water?
Instant Enemy says I can treat the creature as that type of creature for all purposes.
Doesn't matter if they are, the spell doesn't let you change the effective native terrain, only the effective creature type.
native terrain is not a property of creature type. Changing what creature type it counts as does not affect this.
Are you saying Humanoid(Aquatic) creatures are not native to Water?
Instant Enemy says I can treat the creature as that type of creature for all purposes.
Let me quote you from the prd
Aquatic Subtype: These creatures always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe water. It cannot breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality. Aquatic creatures always treat Swim as a class skill.
Point me to the part in there where it says "aquatic creatures are always native to the aquatic terrain" or words to that mechanical effect. I'll save you the effort, they're not in there. So it doesn't matter if you treat something as Humanoid(aquatic), you're still not changing its native terrain or giving it any properties that say it's native to aquatic terrain.
Doesn't matter if they are, the spell doesn't let you change the effective native terrain, only the effective creature type.
native terrain is not a property of creature type. Changing what creature type it counts as does not affect this.
Are you saying Humanoid(Aquatic) creatures are not native to Water?
Instant Enemy says I can treat the creature as that type of creature for all purposes.
Let me quote you from the prd
Aquatic Subtype: These creatures always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe water. It cannot breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality. Aquatic creatures always treat Swim as a class skill.Point me to the part in there where it says "aquatic creatures are always native to the aquatic terrain" or words to that mechanical effect. I'll save you the effort, they're not in there. So it doesn't matter if you treat something as Humanoid(aquatic), you're still not changing its native terrain or giving it any properties that say it's native to aquatic terrain.
So you're saying no, Humanoid(Aquatic) creatures are not always native to water.
Or you're saying that Instant Enemy doesn't let me treat them as that type for all purposes.
But we know you're saying that me treating you as the Aquatic Subtype, doesn't mean that you're native to Water despite all aquatic subtype creatures being native to water.
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So you're saying no, Humanoid(Aquatic) creatures are not always native to water.
Or you're saying that Instant Enemy doesn't let me treat them as that type for all purposes.
But we know you're saying that me treating you as the Aquatic Subtype, doesn't mean that you're native to Water despite all aquatic subtype creatures being native to water.
Correct, I'm saying that no, being Humanoid(aquatic) does not automatically make your native terrain to aquatic. It's the same as saying that treating a target as Humanoid(Gnoll) lets you use Terrain Dominance(Deserts) against it because the only monster in the bestiary with the type of Humanoid(Gnoll) is the Gnoll which is native to Warm Plains and Deserts. Which is wrong.
I'd be happy to change my stance if you can quote me some relevant rules text I missed, but as it stands
Favored Enemy only cares about what creature type you are
Instant Enemy only lets you count something as a different creature type
Terrain Dominance cares about what terrain the creature is native to
Native Terrain is not a property of creature type
Therefore, using Instant Enemy to change a creature's effective creature type does nothing to change its native terrain and will not activate Terrain Dominance.
All printed Aquatic(Humanoid) creatures are native to water.
All printed Aquatic(Humanoid) creatures are native to water.
And all printed Humanoid(Gnoll) are native to Warm Plains and Deserts. It doesn't mean that Terrain Dominance(Deserts) works on them. Wanna know why? Because "Native to Deserts" is not a part of the gnoll subtype.
It doesn't work that way against ANY other creature type, so why would it work that way against Humanoid(aquatic) or Humanoid(Gnoll)?
Again, quote me the rules-relevant text and I'll be happy to reconsider my stance.
Except it's not a Humanoid (Gnoll) for Favored Enemy purposes. It's an Aquatic (Humanoid).
Which are all native to water.
2+2=4. Let's not make this complicated just because some of us might not like it.
Totally a nitpick, but Terrain Dominace (Deserts) does work on Gnolls because Gnolls are native to warm plains or deserts in their statblock.
I think it would still work, you just have to use a different subtype. The outsiders are good for this... for example, Agathions are noted as being native to Nirvana. So if you pick Aligned Plane (Neutral Good) as your favored terrain and Outsider (Good) as your favored enemy you can treat everything as Agathions and therefore native to Nirvana, getting your bonus.
Totally a nitpick, but Terrain Dominace (Deserts) does work on Gnolls because Gnolls are native to warm plains or deserts in their statblock.
It works on Gnolls yes. But not "I cast instant enemy on the red dragon to make it count as Humanoid(Gnoll)"
See the difference?
I think it would still work, you just have to use a different subtype. The outsiders are good for this... for example, Agathions are noted as being native to Nirvana. So if you pick Aligned Plane (Neutral Good) as your favored terrain and Outsider (Good) as your favored enemy you can treat everything as Agathions and therefore native to Nirvana, getting your bonus.
Unfortunately, you can only treat it as that type, not a particular creature. And there are some Outsider (Good) that are not native to Nirvana. Like Angels. I believe that Aquatic (Humanoid) and the Water Terrain is probably the most RAW tight way to do this.
All printed Aquatic(Humanoid) creatures are native to water.
And all printed Humanoid(Gnoll) are native to Warm Plains and Deserts. It doesn't mean that Terrain Dominance(Deserts) works on them. Wanna know why? Because "Native to Deserts" is not a part of the gnoll subtype.
It doesn't work that way against ANY other creature type, so why would it work that way against Humanoid(aquatic) or Humanoid(Gnoll)?
Again, quote me the rules-relevant text and I'll be happy to reconsider my stance.
Honestly this doesn't feel like a rules discussion. It's simple association. Yes, you can say that it doesn't change their native terrain.
However that doesn't hold up to simple brain parsing. I'm trained to fight creatures native to a certain environment. My spell allows me to treat a creature as a certain type of creature whom are ALL native to that environment for ALL purposes.
Heres where the divide happens. You say that despite my spell allowing me to treat them as a creature type whom are invariably native to that terrain, it doesn't allow me to treat them so despite Instant Enemy allowing me to treat them as that type of enemy for all purposes.
Ah, right.
Then Darigaaz is right and it doesn't work at all. Even though all creatures that are normally aquatic are listed as being in the water terrain, being shifted to the aquatic subtype does not shift your terrain type to water. It seems like it should, but for something like this I am going to err on the side of "the rules don't say I can".
Totally a nitpick, but Terrain Dominace (Deserts) does work on Gnolls because Gnolls are native to warm plains or deserts in their statblock.It works on Gnolls yes. But not "I cast instant enemy on the red dragon to make it count as Humanoid(Gnoll)"
See the difference?
I understand exactly what you meant, which is why I called it out as a nitpick. You said that Terrain Dominance (Deserts) doesn't necessarily work on Gnolls just because all printed Gnolls are native to deserts.
Even if you were to encounter a tribe of gnolls that has lived in the arctic regions for generations, they are still native to deserts and would therefore fall under the sway of Terrain Dominace (Deserts).
However, if Paizo were to print a subtype of Gnolls that aren't native to deserts, your statement would be true. They very well could come out with something like Winter Gnolls that have adapted to, and become native to, arctic regions.
Despite that, however, you will (probably) never see a creature with the aquatic subtype that isn't native to water. It would stand to reason that treating a creature as part of the aquatic subtype would also treat them as native to the aquatic/water terrain.
[Edit] I should add I would never allow this to work. Choosing Urban/Mountains/Underground are powerful enough choices that you're basically guaranteed to find something like 85% of the bestiary in those three terrains.
I understand exactly what you meant, which is why I called it out as a nitpick. You said that Terrain Dominance (Deserts) doesn't necessarily work on Gnolls just because all printed Gnolls are native to deserts.
Even if you were to encounter a tribe of gnolls that has lived in the arctic regions for generations, they are still native to deserts and would therefore fall under the sway of Terrain Dominace (Deserts).
However, if Paizo were to print a subtype of Gnolls that aren't native to deserts, your statement would be true. They very well could come out with something like Winter Gnolls that have adapted to, and become native to, arctic regions.
Despite that, however, you will (probably) never see a creature with the aquatic subtype that isn't native to water. It would stand to reason that treating a creature as part of the aquatic subtype would also treat them as native to the aquatic/water terrain.
[Edit] I should add I would never allow this to work. Choosing Urban/Mountains/Underground are powerful enough choices that you're basically guaranteed to find something like 85% of the bestiary in those three terrains.
Well then lets get hypothetical. Theoretically, if an aquatic subtype creature was printed that was not native to aquatic terrain, would it invalidate your argument?
And for clarification, I said it would not work on Humanoid(Gnoll). Not that it would not work on Gnolls (the creature with an entry in the bestiary).