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So, just starting with my Bull Rush Brawler character for Carrion Crown, and was looking for advice on common battlefield tactics.
I want to be able to take advantage of this particular focus, and wonder if anyone has some pointers for maximizing it's potential in combat.
Advice?
you cant shield slam (bull rush) into walls.... read bull rush.
You cannot Bull Rush into walls, but Shield Slam is an exception:
Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.
In essence, Shield Slam causes a bull rush effect, if possible, and if not (due to an obstruction), it causes a trip effect.
Really the only way you can make full use of this is gonna be having a caster buddy who is kind enough to cast Pit spells for you.
However, what you said here:
Brawler's Flurry only gives you the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, whilst using Brawler's Flurry.
So, you can't use it to pick feats that require it as a prerequisite.
I think is wrong. There is precedent for you qualifying for Feats if you only meet the prerequisites "some of the time", and Brawler's Flurry actually says you HAVE the Two-Weapon Fighting Feats, rather than the Monk's wording of being treated AS IF you had them.
So you would be able to Shield Slam while Flurrying by my reading, just not at other times.
This makes it a bit more useful. You can now attack, Slam, and push someone back (hopefully 10 feet). If nothing else, this means you can continually deny an enemy a full attack if you invest enough into it to be able to shove someone at least 10 feet each time. Or 5 feet and then 5 ft. step back.
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I play a Bull Rush specialist / shield slam Fighter (9th level) in PFS. I have some tactical advice:
The Charge section of the combat rules grants you an additional +2 for Bull Rush attempts, for a total of +4 on the charge, by RAW.
A (brief) discussion on the topic: Charge and Bull Rush...
Since you only need 10' of space to accomplish this, it is wise to try and charge often.
I recommend getting Greater Bull Rush as soon as possible. Martial Maneuvers can you there, but I think that it's important enough for a Bull Rush character to have it on all of the time.
Using the first round to move to position can set up a 'run the gauntlet' effect with Greater Bull Rush very easily. Once your bonus is high enough, you can launch an enemy through your party's melee characters and everyone gets a free swipe. Many opponents have dropped before they even stopped moving from this in my games.
As much as it may hurt to take Two Weapon Fighting, I recommend you do it because Shield Slam is a fantastic feat. As a shield brawler, you will probably get Improved Shield Bash anyway, so you only have to worry about one useless feat. However, TWF does let you draw two weapons with a free action, for what that's worth.
Tactically, the Shield Slam feat works very well with Greater Bull Rush. Set your charge (and timing/initiative order) up just right and your party will get three attacks off before the enemy has a chance to fight back: 1 Greater BR, 1 Allies' turn, 1 enemy stands up.
With Shield Slam, you can also eventually 'prone lock' an enemy. You can't trip a prone enemy, but you can shield slam them, which grants you a free Bull Rush with the Shield Slam feat. If you have them pinned against a wall, table, or 'other surface', they're not getting back on their feet without getting wrecked. There is added hilarity when two friendly melee types are standing adjacent to them/you.
Also, Pauldrons of the Bull are incredibly useful.
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Having read the above discussion more carefully and reviewed the ACG playtest document, I'm not sure that I am as confident in Rynjin's point as he is.
I agree with the idea and I'd probably make the same argument if I were in your position. I think the argument is not identical to, say, the argument for a Beast Totem Barbarian qualifying for Weapon Focus: Claw with his rage power.
The Brawler's Flurry ability has some pretty specific and restrictive language. I think there's an argument for it qualifying you for other feats (Shield Slam), but I'm not sure that you would be able to use those feats outside of a Brawler's Flurry.
I'd get a specific ruling from your GM.
Even if your GM denies that you will qualify, I think taking TWF anyway is still worth it.
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I was thinking of going for Rhino Charge at 5th, to move, ready a Charge/Bull Rush, then repeat.
I hoped to avoid the Shield angle this time, but it really seems a good way to go.
The Shield Slam "prone lock", with Merciless Rush seems a pretty good combo.
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Yeah that is nasty. If you have Spiked Destroyer as well, it would get ridiculous.
Rhino Charge is a great feat. But I don't think it's absolutely vital, or as important as Greater Bull Rush / Shield Slam.
I am going to take it at 10th since there have not been a lot of situations where it would have changed much in my experience.
Charge gives you a nice bonus, but you can Shield Slam an adjacent character; if your bonus is high enough, it will work.
Another suggestion:
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone + Wayfinder
It is later on, but at 11th I would grab Shield Master and use two shields, you only get the AC from one of them, but now you can two weapon fight with no penalties at all.
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Another suggestion: Bull Rush is one of the few abilities that allows you to actually shove an enemy off of something.
Be sure to look at terrain features and think a few moves ahead.
I once used Shield Slam to knock a caster off of a ledge; the whole group (waiting below) got AOOs as he sailed through the air above them, hit the wall, and then took falling damage. He started combat prone, injured, and surrounded.
A real crowd pleaser.
Make sure to read shield slam very carefully. You'll notice that you'll need an entire move action to move or a 5 ft step in order to follow, and it's not based on available movement. So, if you charge then hit into a shield slam bull rush, you cannot follow... but if you have a 5ft or move to move, then you can spend it to follow any distance you make on the rush. This is more to your disadvantage than advantage sadly, but as mentioned before, the +4 on a charge is really helpful.
Be sure to point out any debuffs or situations like your enemy being flat footed when your gm checks the cmd of your target. Those increments matter, and every point counts!
Remember to not touch your attack roll dice, because you need that on successful hit if you choose to do so, to preform your shield slam bull rush. Also, be ready to give everyone a head ache while you domino effect bull rush a line of targets and need to calculate and check exactly how far you push each back, and who falls prone from not being able to continue due to an actual surface, or another creature from preventing them.
Another suggestion: Bull Rush is one of the few abilities that allows you to actually shove an enemy off of something.
Be sure to look at terrain features and think a few moves ahead.
I once used Shield Slam to knock a caster off of a ledge; the whole group (waiting below) got AOOs as he sailed through the air above them, hit the wall, and then took falling damage. He started combat prone, injured, and surrounded.
A real crowd pleaser.
every time the perfect situation happens for me to do awesome, someone or something screws it up at the last possible second before it gets to my initiative order!
One day... One day.
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Be sure to point out any debuffs or situations like your enemy being flat footed when your gm checks the cmd of your target. Those increments matter, and every point counts!
This is a great suggestion. I need to pay more attention to it myself.
You're right about the limits of moving along with Shield Slam. I haven't had much trouble with this myself, as 'launching them through the air' is usually my goal.
On that note, I imagine that you can also use Bull Rush to knock allies out of danger or into position. Using Shield Slam isn't a great idea with this tactic; just use your shoulder.
If the enemy gets around you and is messing with the squishy caster, you may be more certain of your success vs. the ally's CMD than the enemy's CMD. Just move, Bull Rush them out of the way, and say hello.
This 'rescue' movement does not provoke AOOs onto your ally, even with Greater Bull Rush (your movement will though). Shouldn't be too hard to shove them about 15' away from danger.
Bonus points if you set up a flank this way.
I think I may have a few tips on future items at least:
1. Maelstrom Shield - Leo goes powertrippin', no need for walls. So good it hurts (mostly the enemy, especially when combined with Greater Trip). Bashing ability included, increasing the damage die by two size categories (2d6 while Leo's medium).
2. Tempest Shield - Leo gains a second free bull rush on his shield bash. Meaning a second Merciless Rush potential for even more hobgoblin fun. Bashing ability included.
3. Impact - Adds enhancement bonus to all bull rush attempts. Expensive +2 weapon ability that needs a spiked shield and Shield Master, but your "hobbie" will bull rush anything into oblivion aided by his dirt cheap +5 shield enhancement. And of course he gets to add one additional damage die size increase to his pain party.
4. Pauldrons of the Bull - Roll bull rush attempts twice, use best roll. Say no more.
5. Opalescent White Pyramid - An ioun stone for EWP (throwing shield) for added flexibility. Combine with a Belt of Mighty Hurling and the shield suddenly have ok str-based ranged capacity in Leo's dirty paws.
6. Titanic - For a bigger, better and more bada$$ Beilmeister that can bull rush and trip gargantuan creatures. Absolutely vital if you're continuing into higher levels, so it stinks your little (pun intended) Leo can't get it. Substitutes?
1, 2, 3 and 4 together nets a total of not 10, but more like 100: a +5 Maelstrom tempest +1 impact spiked shield of pure hobgoblin bull rushing bonanza! With enlarge person, the damage die of Big Bad Bashing Beilmeister's shield will be a decent 4d6, but more importantly, he gets to make up to FOUR bull rush attempts per initial shield bash attack, taking the best of two rolls at each attempt and can gain Merciless Rush damage from all four. (How? Each bash triggers two bull rushes (Shield Slam, Tempest Shield), and one or two trip attempts (Maelstrom Shield, Squash Flat) or even an automatic trip (if next to wall), which in turn triggers an AoO (Greater Trip) for another bash with two bull rushes.)
So, I'd seriously consider putting some more points into Int and grabbing 2-4 levels Lore Warden (as the ACG classes are allowed to MC with their "parent" classes now), giving Leo free CE for IT, GT and Squash Flat, stacking the pain and BFC potential of his shield spike so high it'll reach Heaven and poke Iomedae's righteous up-tight behind!
You probably already know this, but the "move through" problem with Merciless Rush has been fixed. This also means you can shield slam bull rush just to get the damage bonus (and any free trip attempts), without actually moving the target.
BTW, how does Leo get Heavy Shield Proficiency? Does the brawler grant shield prof's now?
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Well, that's kind of the rub.
Brawler is proficient with shields as weapons, but not as armor.
The listed build has a Darkwood Shield(no acp), so no penalties to attack rolls.
It is kind of the reason that I had considered a "shieldless" build, but it seems to really be the way to go.
It may be worth it to take a two level dip into Ranger, for Shield proficiency, and Shield Slam.
A 2 level dip in Ranger is always good for a martial, in my humble opinion. You gain a pretty solid chunk of things.
I have no idea when I would do it though.
Timing dips is always important.
Assuming straight Brawler besides, you probably want Shield Slam ASAP. So maybe Brawler 2/Ranger 2/Brawler X?
Depends on the campaign. If you know you're going to be fighting a lot of X Favored Enemy is breddy gud.
Trapper is a no-brainer regardless.
Ah. FE Undead will serve you well obviously, but there's a lot of variety in CC so Guide may be good too.
Well, you're going Shield Slam so that point is moot.
Consider Slayer for a dip too over Ranger.
Perhaps it might be a better choice when you make your final game plan. The Slayer may use their Slayer talents to grab ranger style feats, so at level 2 of Slayer if you choose "Weapon and Shield" ranger style, you could have shield slam on deck. It would be a matter of preference between Ranger (Possibly an Archetype), or Slayer, but I am just making you aware of another alternative to skipping ahead for shield slam if you were to dip.
Slayer isn't as good of a dip.
Trapper Ranger grants you: Favored Enemy,, Track +1, Wild Empathy, Trapfinding, 6 skills, Medium armor and shield proficiency, and a Combat Style Feat with 2 levels.
Guide will grant you a 1/day Swift action +2 vs a single foe instead of Favored Enemy.
Slayer, on the other hand, merely grants the armor and skills, along with the Feat, Track +1, and Favored Target. Unfortunately, Favored Target as a Move action. You'd need at least 7 levels to make it a Swift (at which point you may as well go full on Slayer).
I admittedly am not familiar to all of the Ranger Archetypes, which is why I made sure to include the mention of possible archetypes in my post, and to only make it a suggestion to consider looking into Slayer.
I personally didn't mind using favored target as a move action when I knew it would take a double move to position to hit a target. I move, favored target, then plan to charge my next round while reaping the extra +1 bonus to everything.
Also, I also like how I can shield slam, "use my" 5ft step with shield slam to follow, and still have a move action to favor another target if let's say the enemy died on spiked destroyer, or greater bull rushes AoO's killed the target, or Merciful Rush did the job... etc
Favored Enemy forever, Swift action 1/day, or move action Favored Target. Personally, I rather be called a SLAYER than a ranger, but that's just me.
BRAWLER/SLAYER on paper looks pretty awesome to me. Brawling in the mosh pit listening to Slayer.
I completely agree that the names are just for flavor, but you know Slayer sounds way cooler!
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Yeah.
Well, I still have a hard time convincing others that their class name doesn't define them.
I've seen looks that resemble pre-head-explosion Scanners looks, when I tell people you can play Lawful Good religious Rogues, who never lie, and never steal, and are not that good at being sneaky.
Moving on...
Are there some situational feats that could be good choices for Martial Maneuvers?
Lunge, Blind Fight, Precise Shot. Catch Off Guard maybe and likewise Throw Anything. Stuff like that.
