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Starsaber: This is a complex question, and you are going to get a lot of varied answers.
Locally I feel like we go in phases, we get a rather large turnout and then over the next period of scheduled sessions we gradually lose 1-2 players each time until we have to call off sessions because we are only getting 1-2 signups.
I was supposed to be running 2 games this weekend. Among the Gods (which currently has 4 players) and King Xeros of Old Azlant (which has a single player). Its likely King Xeros will be called off.
We also get a strange effect locally. As we use Warhorn to gauge how many tables we need we can work out how many players are attending. For another game day we had 2 tables of City of Strangers Part 1 and 2 planned with 9 signing up for both sessions. Then about a day before 5 of those disappeared. It meant that I didnt have to gm the 2nd table, but it was still quite worrying that 5 people dropped out 24 hours before.
What can we do about it? We basically need to make sure we keep offering sessions so people realise we are still around. Advertise online/local game store. See if the actual DAY you are running on is the issue. Some people like midweek games (although most of your gms might have 9-5 jobs making running such games unlikely). Saturday might be good for some people if they use public transport (as some services are non existent on Sundays). Saturday can also be the day when people go to sporting events, causing a problem with attending a game.
Also look at the time the game is on. If its a late game, younger players might have issues going. If its on too early, you might have issues we people waking up in time to get there.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I preach it is better to sign up and cancel than never to sign up at all. Better too many GMs than too few.
I also notice cyclical turnouts and wonder how much that has to do with seasons and holidays. Part of our current problem has been local table limits due to constraints on our FLGS which make it difficult to do more than 3 (or even sometimes 2) tables at a time as we are always competing with table space for MTG, HeroClix, Warhammer, etc. And if you're not growing, then you're shrinking. However, our FLGS is moving to new digs that may help with that.
There are two factors in keeping your membership up; retaining old players and getting new players. Retaining old players means giving them what they want and if they stop showing up then asking them what you can do to get them to come back is always a good idea. Getting new players requires some form of advertising. And like anything else, word of mouth is always the best advertising.
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We go through cycles as well, and after four years they do seem to be seasonal. Nice weather pulls some folks away, too much snow/cold can do the same. +/-25% attendance is not out of line for any week.
It sounds like you may have a demographics issue, though. For us, we have several younger players, but they have all joined essentially an adult group and so have learned quickly the acceptable behaviours. Depending on your situation, this may be a factor. If it is, one way to potentially deal with it is to run some sessions later at night to attract more adults and fewer kids, while running your regular sessions at a more kid-friendly time.
Given only a little work, younger and older players can enjoy the game together, but it does require the adults to be accepting of the kids' enthusiasm, and the kids to play "grown-up" games and not the hack-and-slash-evil-kill-everything games I remember playing in middle school.
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Running into the problem of not having scenarios to play...if the scenarios offered have already been played then there is no reason to attend as you can't play a scenario twice...the store doesn't get you inside where you will probably spend money...and you won't buy that new paizo book/module/etc.
I was planning on playing this coming sunday but alas of the 4 scenarios offered I have played them all..ergo I will not be attending or more importantly for Paizo and the shop owner spending any money.
Paizo really needs to revise the replaying of scenarios rules.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Paizo really needs to revise the replaying of scenarios rules.
No, they don't. I've been running PFS in my shop for more than five years, and have increased my attendance and number of games every single year. I rarely, if ever, cancel scenarios, and if I do it is simply to switch that table over to another scenario that *does* garner a full group. My veterans are easily able to play in 2 or 3 sessions per month, and end up running 2 or 3 as well. Many of them run and play in Adventure Paths or home-designed campaigns. The inability to replay is certainly not an issue. In fact, I would actually call it a feature: because the same old faces can't constantly take every available seat at a game I get a regular influx of new players that freshens up the community a great deal.
To Starsaber: try a few different things.
1 - Run a regularly scheduled "Learn to Play Pathfinder" night. Set this table up as a 1st level only table, and use the PFS rules to run it (use Master of the Fallen Fortress or The Confirmation to run it, or use an older scenario from Season 0). Encourage your veterans to run it and try to schedule scenarios that one or two of your veterans haven't played before so they can have a seat with the new players and "show them the ropes" so to speak. I have been running these with great success for quite some time. I get 6 brand new faces every session, and those people often make the jump to regular PFS nights. The GM who runs my session was able to start a campaign up by hand-selecting various players to join him (a group of seven, five of which are now regular PFS players).
2 - When you schedule game days be sure you have a spread of new and old scenarios, and a spread of available tiers. I schedule four tables each game day, always scheduling two Tier 1-x scenarios, one Tier 3-7 (or 5-9) and one Tier 5-9 (or 7-11). This allows people lots of choices, and if you keep an eye on what you've run more in the past versus what you have *not* run, you will not have a problem with players not being able to find a scenario they haven't played.
3 - Offer your players a lot of incentive to GM. Obviously, Paizo does a good job of this already, but you as the organizer can do more. If you charge a paltry $2 per player, you can make up to $12 per table which you can use to give your GMs gift certificates so that they can acquire the goodies they need to GM. Always buy the scenarios you plan to schedule, and have a hard copy to loan out to GMs who are tight on funds. And if someone GMs a game for you, guarantee them a seat at another table of their choice on a different game day (essentially, show them the schedule before you show the players the schedule).
4 - Always schedule ahead of time. Announce your schedule for the entire month before you *get* to that month, and always post regular updates on the state of players.
I have a pool of nearly 100 players that come through my store regularly, and there are another 300 in and around the city that I see on occasion. By following the tactics I outlined above I had a very large hand in creating that player base, and I never wont for players or GMs, and never have any issues packing my store on game days.
Good fortune on your own organizing. If you want more specific advice, please feel free to ask.
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Drogan I Disagree completely
In my area we run quite a few games on different days and locations and we are running into the problem of getting scenarios that a group of 5-6 players haven't played.
Lets face it there are only so many scenarios and If you have several characters ( example I have 2-12's, 1-11th, 1-6th, 2-4th, and a 1st)...you've done a good job of exhausting the available scenarios.
I'm sure you have run into the problem of having 5 players sitting at a table trying to find one scenario in common that none of them have played...an almost impossible task.
Paizo makes money by selling product and storeowners make money by selling product....period... no disputing this fact, therefore why set a meaningless rule in place to prevent people form coming to a store and spending money?
Now if I were GM'ing a game for someone and they were acting on their prior knowledge of the scenario and not their PC's knowledge I would give them a warning about it, but in my area we have a lot of good players and this would be a rare happenstance.
Anything to enhance attendance and spending is to be encouraged...anything detrimental to that does not make sense.
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I don't have Drogon's knowledge or experience, but I've been organizing games at my location for a little over two years now. Beyond following Drogon's advice, my suggestions are:
1: Make sure to have as much advertising as possible; if your store has a facebook page make sure to get it to advertise your games.
2: Try running something special. I ran Thornkeep last summer and it really boosted attendance at my location.
3: Keep an eye on your player's levels and plan tiers based on that knowledge.
4: Speak to your Venture Captain and Lieutenants. They may have ideas for increasing attendance; alternatively they may have heard complaints from players you've lost.
5: Offer new scenarios.
6: Consider holding a special game day on a Saturday or a Sunday. Offer a sanctioned module (the repeatable 1-2 modules tend to be good at drawing crowds). Make sure to promote the normal game day.
7: Keep a list of the adventures you've run at your location and that are run at nearby locations and the dates that they were run. That way it is easier to avoid running the same things other people have. Its possible you've just had a string of bad scenario choices.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I'm sure you have run into the problem of having 5 players sitting at a table trying to find one scenario in common that none of them have played...
Nope. Not even once.
I have coordinated somewhere in the neighborhood of 1100 PFS games. I have never once had a table sit down and be unable to play the scenario they signed up to play due to not being able to find a common scenario that they *could* play.
Not. Once.
Why? Because I schedule ahead of time. It is impossible to have this problem when people know in advance what they are being offered.
Paizo makes money by selling product and storeowners make money by selling product....period... no disputing this fact, therefore why set a meaningless rule in place to prevent people form coming to a store and spending money?
Pathfinder is the second best selling product in my shop. It sits behind only Magic. I have no issues making plenty of sales in my shop where there is no replay. Maybe I'm unique. Maybe I'm special. But I doubt those are the only reasons. I would rather say that it's because of the single greatest feature PFS has: NO REPLAY.
Why? Because I always am confident of being able to attract new players with the surety that they will be able to find seats at the games I offer because they won't be locked out by all the old guard who will replay into perpetuity, chasing whatever boon or item happens to be on this chronicle, or merely because they're too selfish to give their seat up to someone else who hasn't yet seen the scenario.
LFR died a terrible death over the course of a couple years. I watched as it went from king of the OrgPlay hill to a sad, bored collection of the same half-dozen hangers-ons who couldn't fathom the idea of playing something other than the mighty Dungeons & Dragons. The number one culprit behind this unnecessary decline? Replay. Number two? The ability to create a character at whatever tier was necessary to join a game. Both policies' flaw? It handed all the tools needed to those hangers-ons to lock out new blood.
It's a community. Grow it. That's how you keep from having the problems you are describing.
Anything to enhance attendance and spending is to be encouraged...anything detrimental to that does not make sense.
On this statement we are 100% in agreement. We sure do differ on what is detrimental, however.
I think I have the numbers to prove my side of the argument stands up to scrutiny.
In case it is escaping peoples' notice: I am not just the coordinator for my store's PFS games; I'm the store owner. I will jettison PFS in a heartbeat if replay becomes legal. Why? Because I want to make money. Introduce replay and the money making potential of PFS will dry up just like Living Forgotten Realms did.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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This rule is not new.
I've checked all the way back to v1.1 of the guide (yes I saved them)
In 1.1 the rule was "You may not replay, ever"
In 2.1 they ... well here is the quote
It just gets more refined over the years.Scenarios May Only Be Played Once
You may only play a Pathfinder Society Organized Play adventure scenario once. This means that once you have played a scenario, you may never play that scenario again with any future characters. The only exception to this rule is using a pregenerated character to replay a scenario in order to make a legal table.and all that time we have had a few people stating that it must be a problem for... somebody. Very few people have stepped forward and said, "I've played everything and I want to be able to re-play stuff..." usually it's "I can't find a game I haven't played being offered in the shop I play at..." or something like that.
I have played almost everything. And I've been like this for months... and I'm happy with the way it works now. Please don't brake it, trying to fix a problem for me... when I don't think it's a problem.
And nosig's crew doesn't even use my suggested method of "schedule ahead." If I recall properly they all show up at a set time, then have a free-for-all muster of who can play what Rock/Paper/Scissors. And they still find things they can all play. Crazy.
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Unklbuck, there are 144 scenarios right now. Plus modules and sanctioned adventure paths. I've experienced the problem that you have before, but only because A) certain individuals showed up at the game day/con slot without knowing that they couldn't play the adventure on offer, and B) I and my volunteer GMs don't happen to own every scenario.
I suggest if you continue to have this problem, do what I do at my location: One week before you post the final schedule for the next month, bring a tentative schedule to the game. That way you can get feedback on what scenarios are good choices and what scenarios aren't.
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And nosig's crew doesn't even use my suggested method of "schedule ahead." If I recall properly they all show up at a set time, then have a free-for-all muster of who can play what Rock/Paper/Scissors. And they still find things they can all play. Crazy.
You and nosig seem to have some pretty big player bases to pull from and venues to put them in. It doesn't quite work that way with smaller groups.
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This rule is not new.
I've checked all the way back to v1.1 of the guide (yes I saved them)
In 1.1 the rule was "You may not replay, ever"
In 2.1 they ... well here is the quote
It just gets more refined over the years.Scenarios May Only Be Played Once
You may only play a Pathfinder Society Organized Play adventure scenario once. This means that once you have played a scenario, you may never play that scenario again with any future characters. The only exception to this rule is using a pregenerated character to replay a scenario in order to make a legal table.and all that time we have had a few people stating that it must be a problem for... somebody. Very few people have stepped forward and said, "I've played everything and I want to be able to re-play stuff..." usually it's "I can't find a game I haven't played being offered in the shop I play at..." or something like that.
I have played almost everything. And I've been like this for months... and I'm happy with the way it works now. Please don't brake it, trying to fix a problem for me... when I don't think it's a problem.
Tamec,
I think you missed an iteration of the replay rule, which allowed a limited amount of replay.
At one point, you could replay a scenario up to 5 times, as long as each play of the scenario was with a PC from a different faction.
So, yes, long before the Tier 1 rule came into existence, it was possible to plauy the same scenario up to 5 times (only 5, as there were only 5 factions at the time).
What can I say? My -1 has two player credits on him from Season 0 scenarios that were played during Season 0.
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Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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Actually v1.1 of the guide is for season 0 because it has a 3.5 character sheet in it.
and in v1.1
(players can only play each scenario once, regardless of how many characters they have)
It is then followed by rules for slot 0s for GMs. This, from my experience is almost cut and paste from the RPGA.
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The way we do it in our area is basically we announce the scenarios that re going to be played at the middle of the week (our PFS is on Sunday). However, we have the schedule (which is subject to change if a GM gets sick or has an emergency) posted on our facebook page so that people can see what's coming up. We regularly run 4 or 5 tables each week.
While attendance ebbs and flows the slowest I have seen the shop was 2 tables. We don't do sign ups (even though our size probably justifies it). We have found that sign ups do not accurately reflect who wants to play or who wants to play what adventure. Signups accurate reflect who thinks about signing up during the week and then does so.
We had an Anniversary day a few months ago and probably only 5 people signed up for anything, even though we were encouraging people to sign up all month leading up to the event. When the event happened we had 6 tables with the smallest table (mine) being 6 people. Signups are not an accurate representation of who wants to be involved and a strict adherence to "the signup sheet" can discourage people from playing. I think this may be truer for a smaller venue. IDK I could be wrong but that is my general belief.
Of course this might not work for every chapter but I know that it has worked for mine.
I also think that it is the responsibility of the event coordinator to make sure that no one is being alienated. I work with middle school children and they can be a lot to deal with. If you have a large middle school population, I would make sure that they are not being rude or hassling older players.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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You and nosig seem to have some pretty big player bases to pull from and venues to put them in. It doesn't quite work that way with smaller groups.
It's true. I do. Do you really think my player base came pre-installed, though?
I started with five players and a GM. I did the things I talk about above. I watched the mistakes that were being made in LFR (lack of GM credit and leaning on the same GMs over and over) and made sure to avoid them. I made sure to have a very good understanding of what made an OrgPlay campaign tick. Finally, I took a direct hand in making sure that the experiences of the GMs and players were as exciting as I could make it.
I grew my community to what it is. Do the same thing and you'll have a good player base to work with, too.
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To Drogon and Nosig, when BNW and others are talking player base, I'm guessing they are talking about the general population of where you live and run games. It sounds like the two of you live in more heavily populated areas, which will give you a larger group of people to grow a player base out of. Not everyone is as fortunate to have such a large group of people to recruit a player base out of. If my research is correct, Drogon, you get to draw your player base out of Denver, which is much more than someone running out of a store in a much smaller town could hope to achieve.
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Undead Mitch and BNW: I live in rural southern Illinois. Like 6-7 hours south of Chicago. Carbondale, where I organize, has a population of roughly 26,000 during the semester, since its a university town.
I regularly sit about 8 tables per game day (4 per slot), twice monthly. We have only two players thus far that have significantly slowed their attendance due to lack of things to play*, and neither of those players have GMed more than a handful of scenarios each.
Please dont assume Drogon's success in Denver or nosig's in St Louis has anything to do with the size of the community.
*And by lack of things to play, I mean their list of sscenarios they have left is probably still 20-25 strong.
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On topic: Starsaber, if you have the contact information for any of the adult players, I would ask them personally if there was any reason why they havent come back. If it is because of the kids (Ive got my own batch of players that age, I know how they can be :P), then maybe offer to have a table run separately for them. I know our younger players, being the minority of the group, like to play together whenever possible, so it might be the same way with your few adult players preferring to play together instead of with a bunch of kids.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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It's true. I do. Do you really think my player base came pre-installed, though?No, but i think you're dealing with orders of magnitude more people within reasonable gaming distance, and what looks like a dream setup for gaming.
This is a fair point, BigNorseWolf (and UndeadMitch). But I think Seth is the counter to that point. I, personally, have no experience with organizing for a small town or rural population, so I will not presume to advise you on how to deal with your challenges.
I *will* say that I feel replay legalization is not the answer. It will fix a problem that a very small percentage of people have, quite likely in a pleasant way for those with good people management skills. But it will create a whole new set of problems for a very large percentage of us who have already experienced those problems and don't want to see them again, or those of us who do not have good management skills.
I respect your positions. I would like to see a solution to your problems that does not make my own position untenable.
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Undead Mitch and BNW: I live in rural southern Illinois. Like 6-7 hours south of Chicago. Carbondale, where I organize, has a population of roughly 26,000 during the semester, since its a university town.
I regularly sit about 8 tables per game day (4 per slot), twice monthly. We have only two players thus far that have significantly slowed their attendance due to lack of things to play*, and neither of those players have GMed more than a handful of scenarios each.
Please dont assume Drogon's success in Denver or nosig's in St Louis has anything to do with the size of the community.
*And by lack of things to play, I mean their list of sscenarios they have left is probably still 20-25 strong.
And I live a few miles outside of a town of roughly 5-6 thousand. If Omaha wasn't within driving distance, I wouldn't be able to play PFS. As it is, I have to drive about 45 minutes to play or GM PFS. You say you only live in a community of about 26,000, but that is a college town. You may not be as big as a major metropolis, but you still get a sizable population of an age group that is prime for PFS. A college town is not the same as a small town.
Edit: Having said my peace, I do agree with Drogon. Unlimited replays is not the correct answer to this problem.
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And I live a few miles outside of a town of roughly 5-6 thousand. If Omaha wasn't within driving distance, I wouldn't be able to play PFS. As it is, I have to drive about 45 minutes to play or GM PFS. You say you only live in a community of about 26,000, but that is a college town. You may not be as big as a major metropolis, but you still get a sizable population of an age group that is prime for PFS. A college town is not the same as a small town.Undead Mitch and BNW: I live in rural southern Illinois. Like 6-7 hours south of Chicago. Carbondale, where I organize, has a population of roughly 26,000 during the semester, since its a university town.
I regularly sit about 8 tables per game day (4 per slot), twice monthly. We have only two players thus far that have significantly slowed their attendance due to lack of things to play*, and neither of those players have GMed more than a handful of scenarios each.
Please dont assume Drogon's success in Denver or nosig's in St Louis has anything to do with the size of the community.
*And by lack of things to play, I mean their list of sscenarios they have left is probably still 20-25 strong.
I also drive 45+ minutes to get to that town. The town I live in is about 9,000. Perhaps a handful of my players come from the university. The majority of my players are over 25 and married. And I have some middleschoolers.
If your player base is as small as it sounds and yet you have so many people with nothing left to play, I highly suggest they start GMing. Its a great way to give back to the community and can seriously help lengthen your ability to gain credit.
Im not trying to discounting your experiences or difficulties, but neither should you discount those of people who live in a larger area. Just because the rule doesnt work well for your area, despite working for the vast majority of players out there, doesnt mean the rule needs to be fixed.
Edited population after Googling it. :P
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Seth, I'm not actually lobbying for replays, it looks like you started your response before I added in my edit stating my position. Putting aside any further discussion on population and demographics, there are different problems for different areas. My play area in Omaha, for example is actually pretty solid when it comes to having a player base. However, we have suffered in the past because of organization more than anything else, an issue that we are starting to get under control. I just recognize that not everyone has the luxury of a larger town within driving distance like we do. To reiterate, I don't actually endorse unlimited replays.
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Seth, I'm not actually lobbying for replays, it looks like you started your response before I added in my edit stating my position.
You would be correct. :P
I agree, organization can be one of the biggest problems. I regularly play 'Sign-up-Sudoku' a couple minutes before each session begins making sure that tables are good to go and everyone who wants a seat has one. Every now and then there will be a single player who isnt able to get a seat, but that is mostly due to them not signing up on Warhorn and not showing up til right at the start time.
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This is a fair point, BigNorseWolf (and UndeadMitch). But I think Seth is the counter to that point. I, personally, have no experience with organizing for a small town or rural population, so I will not presume to advise you on how to deal with your challenges.
What I'd like, ideally, is some sort of bus exception. IE, if your choices are to drive home or replay then you replay. I don't see how it could be made without an exploit though. I have had a game at a con fall through and not been able to hop into anything else.
Locally our friendly local comic shop has 2 tables, and they're doing a big favor setting up that much space for us.. We have to fluctuate around that. If people have played both scenarios being offered they don't show. If one table goes poof the dm playing the higher level table can be out of luck.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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This is a fair point, BigNorseWolf (and UndeadMitch). But I think Seth is the counter to that point. I, personally, have no experience with organizing for a small town or rural population, so I will not presume to advise you on how to deal with your challenges.What I'd like, ideally, is some sort of bus exception. IE, if your choices are to drive home or replay then you replay. I don't see how it could be made without an exploit though. I have had a game at a con fall through and not been able to hop into anything else.
Locally our friendly local comic shop has 2 tables, and they're doing a big favor setting up that much space for us.. We have to fluctuate around that. If people have played both scenarios being offered they don't show. If one table goes poof the dm playing the higher level table can be out of luck.
Do you like designing? Meaning, when you look at an adventure do you find things to tweak and change, or little enhancements to NPCs' personalities that you know will make a difference? If you GM regularly then you probably do. So, here is my suggestion:
Take your five least favorite scenarios and change them. Turn them into something special by changing NPC interaction, plot lines, encounter areas, or entire encounters. Turn them into something that is yours.
Then, when you have the situation you are describing, get those players who are left on the sidelines involved in a pickup game. Run them through one of your five adventures. You are, essentially, replaying an adventure with everyone for no credit. But you're also testing your design chops on a group who can give you feedback. Especially if they've already played the original version. Was it better? If so, how? If not, why? What do you think I could do better? The answer to those questions will shape the design of your next pickup game.
If you don't want to do that, then do what I suggested in the other thread and start a Greatest Hits of PFS campaign. Have a slew of favorite adventures prepped that you know everyone has played and make that game your second table. No credit replay in action to its fullest. You can even track your PCs in the exact same way you do in PFS. You just can't report it or take those PCs to a sanctioned game.
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Then, when you have the situation you are describing, get those players who are left on the sidelines involved in a pickup game.
This is what i mean about not getting what I mean about a small group. If something like this happens table 1 absorbs all if not most of table 2, leaving too few people for a pickup game.
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Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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There are about a dozen stores in the Greater Denver area running PFS events.I was the second or third to organize games after Drogon's store. I, too, had 2 to 3 tables going twice a month but, then, within a year _every_ store in Eastern Colorado was doing PFS. My tables dropped to maybe 1 a month. I was ready to throw in the towel for PFS at my local store and just continue playing & GMing at Drogon's store. But then, after talking to some of the other guys, we started a PFS sanctioned Reign of Winter game. My point being: Just us 6 guys every 2 weeks each month.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Then, when you have the situation you are describing, get those players who are left on the sidelines involved in a pickup game.This is what i mean about not getting what I mean about a small group. If something like this happens table 1 absorbs all if not most of table 2, leaving too few people for a pickup game.
No, I get it. I just keep overlooking it due to reading everything else in between.
I have to say that I think the AP suggestion is best. Spend the next year playing through one. At the end of that year your options will have expanded by 24+ scenarios, 2 more APs, 6 modules (hopefully), and perhaps another half-dozen players because you kept that "Learn to Play Pathfinder" night on the schedule once per month.
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Then, when you have the situation you are describing, get those players who are left on the sidelines involved in a pickup game.This is what i mean about not getting what I mean about a small group. If something like this happens table 1 absorbs all if not most of table 2, leaving too few people for a pickup game.No, I get it. I just keep overlooking it due to reading everything else in between.
I have to say that I think the AP suggestion is best. Spend the next year playing through one. At the end of that year your options will have expanded by 24+ scenarios, 2 more APs, 6 modules (hopefully), and perhaps another half-dozen players because you kept that "Learn to Play Pathfinder" night on the schedule once per month.
Ummm. Not enough people for a second table is when we run into the already played that problem.
I GM, but am not terribly creative on it, which is why I run modules or APs for my home campaign, not a sand box.
Last time I tried an AP, we lost half the players. Twice. I am going to be starting up running an AP, RotRL, on a different day, literally as a home campaign, but I am still needed to help support local PFS... And I still like to play, not just GM.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Then, when you have the situation you are describing, get those players who are left on the sidelines involved in a pickup game.This is what i mean about not getting what I mean about a small group. If something like this happens table 1 absorbs all if not most of table 2, leaving too few people for a pickup game.No, I get it. I just keep overlooking it due to reading everything else in between.
I have to say that I think the AP suggestion is best. Spend the next year playing through one. At the end of that year your options will have expanded by 24+ scenarios, 2 more APs, 6 modules (hopefully), and perhaps another half-dozen players because you kept that "Learn to Play Pathfinder" night on the schedule once per month.
Ummm. Not enough people for a second table is when we run into the already played that problem.
I GM, but am not terribly creative on it, which is why I run modules or APs for my home campaign, not a sand box.
Last time I tried an AP, we lost half the players. Twice. I am going to be starting up running an AP, RotRL, on a different day, literally as a home campaign, but I am still needed to help support local PFS... And I still like to play, not just GM.
Yes, I understand all of that.
I'm suggesting you use the small size to your advantage. Schedule an Adventure Path on the same night and same location as the PFS. Run the AP as PFS sanctioned (in home mode so you can run whatever rules you want but still get chronicles). When the PFS table is short, put those players into the AP for the night so they can still get a chronicle. You'll likely be over-full on players that night, but with home-mode rules that won't matter. Have some extra characters at the correct level always ready to go.
After a year of this you will have many more options to be able to keep those two tables always firing.
And if you like to play, too, then do two different APs every other session. You run one, and recruit another guy to run the other. Or use modules like Dragon's Demand in the meantime - that's worth a good six sessions, but doesn't go nearly as long as an AP. After that Paizo should have gotten these most recent two modules done for sanctioning, and you'll have another 12 sessions there. And Emerald Spire is on the way. You know they'll be sanctioning that. And it's huge.
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Can you guys seriously take this dead horse elsewhere? The OP is asking for advice on how to fix their diminishing game day turn out; while this point is one facet, and you guys have been good about weaving other advice in a little here and there, replays (for credit) are not going to happen. Reference many of the posts that Mike Brock has made just in the last few days.
So seriously, let this one go or start a new thread, please, so we can put this thread back on track: brainstorming ways to bring old players back and bring new players in. Focusing on arguing endlessly about this one point (especially when it is in MULTIPLE threads, FFS!) isn't helpful or productive to the point of this thread.
I'm sorry. I think I should put the replay threads down now. I think I may be getting over-saturated with the arguments.
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There is always going to be a problem with attendance some of the time. Whether too many players to GM ratio, just to few, and sometimes too many people (I do hate turning people away but the store I run can really only fit two full tables really, three if less people per scenario.)
Much of it does involve catering to those who attend regularly so they can still play, or at least play on and off with gming. As far as getting new GMs, sometimes you just have to ask someone you have seen around a bunch, and suggest something simple to start like first steps or the convocation. Once someone GMs once they are more likely to volunteer again.
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Given only a little work, younger and older players can enjoy the game together, but it does require the adults to be accepting of the kids' enthusiasm, and the kids to play "grown-up" games and not the hack-and-slash-evil-kill-everything games I remember playing in middle school.
Heh... you're talking about middle schoolers? Sounds like college students....
(My home game is a mix of other professors and students. Half of the students really want to be evil. For a while, I humored them, and ran a game with evil characters. However, I was running two different groups, which was too much to keep up with; if I was just running one, *I* prefer having more heroic characters. Still, they were "CN because the GM said no evil" types. They were mature enough to play it well, but were always pulling for pure sociopathy. One of the students (perhaps coincidentally, the oldest one) did a much better job of fitting in with the whole "good" vibe.)
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Yes, I understand all of that.
I'm suggesting you use the small size to your advantage. Schedule an Adventure Path on the same night and same location as the PFS. Run the AP as PFS sanctioned (in home mode so you can run whatever rules you want but still get chronicles). When the PFS table is short, put those players into the AP for the night so they can still get a chronicle. You'll likely be over-full on players that night, but with home-mode rules that won't matter. Have some extra characters at the correct level always ready to go.
After a year of this you will have many more options to be able to keep those two tables always firing.
And if you like to play, too, then do two different APs every other session. You run one, and recruit another guy to run the other. Or use modules like Dragon's Demand in the meantime - that's worth a good six sessions, but doesn't go nearly as long as an AP. After that Paizo should have gotten these most recent two modules done for sanctioning, and you'll have another 12 sessions there. And Emerald Spire is on the way. You know they'll be sanctioning that. And it's huge.
We barely have time for a PFS scenario. Running an AP as you suggest would probably break the pieces into chunks so small no one, even the GM, would know what the story is. Also, given a 4-5 hour block, the chronicle for the sanctioned section would show up, maybe, every other session. For a, hopefully, intermittent fillerish thing? And you want us to put folks who have never managed to get to second level into an ongoing AP, with pregens of the appropriate level?
After a year? After a year?! Yikes. I really have no non-prpofane way to respond to this, as I have been running PFS sessions at this location since 2010, and have the recurring issue of, "Might as well take a few months off, no one is showing up besides me." Been there, done that. Waaaaay too many times.
So, now, you are suggesting using two different APs, as filler, for those weeks when we don't get enough people for everyone to play PFS? Did I mention that one of our players is a pre-teen? And that his brother currently has two games of PFS under his belt?
On Dragon's Demand: Nice idea, too bad I have already GMed and played it for PFS credit. At present, in addition, I suspect that dropping new to PF players (I did mention that the youngsters are using the Beginner's Box?) into a 12-15 module, if it ever gets the chronicles, might be a bit like dropping a halfling in plate armor into the deep end of a pool.
Drogon:
Issue: We have a mix of experienced and new players.
Not everyone is able to show up for every session.
We only have about 4 people currently doing the GMing.
At least two of the GMs use public transit, or a ride from a friend, to get to the game.
Some of our GMs have a fairly small list, especially of low level scenarios, that they can play for credit.
We are starting up into using a Warhorn site for registration, but the initial stuff, for this game day, was done on the store calendar, and originally setup without registration being turned on. Getting people to use the Warhorn is an uphill struggle.
We have been setting up the schedule trying to do some story-arc based games. One of the GMs started running the Destiony of the Sands series, and has done parts 1 & 2, so far. As a break from that, another GM started running the Devil We Know series, since it introduces some of the NPCs that the party is supposed to be running into during Part 3 of Destiny. Unfortunately, two of the GMs have played part or most of the DWK series.
So, our problems:
Irregular turn-out.
Schedule is attempting to do stuff for the players, not make sure the "other" GM can play.
Experienced GMs.
Prereg is under-used.
Significant portion of the player base is not familiar with what scenarios are out there.
Store has limited hours on the day we play.
At least two of us, this Sunday, have to go to work after the game. Both of the ones I know of are the GMs who use public transit.
Once again, the more experienced people would like to see that second table (semi-mythical to begin with) start looking at running 3-7s or higher...
Leaves me either GMing, sometimes only for that table credit toward my next star, or asking for a very specific list of scenarios to be prepped, which makes me sounding a bit... greedy or entitled.
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One thing I like to do from time to time to help bolster attendance is hold a 'Bring a new player to PFS' day. Anyone who brings a new player gets some kind of small compensation. A single extra reroll for the day (to be used over the 2-3 slots), a free entry into the raffle for both the new player and the person who brought them ($.50 entry each normally), or something like that.
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Regarding the conflicting mod with vet players. There are two other ways to get past it.
First, at wildcard mods make your own list of available playable mods and get the vets to fill in their playable options. I ran a wildcard with two guys who wanted me to offer a list so they could veto one by one..literally 45 minutes wasted. With the reference sheet 5 minutes to sort and go. One guy couldn't go but no delay.
Second if its a common reoccurring group get their complete list and manage the mods. You can even gain extra pts by having experienced players DM and then contribute to the planned mods. Its not as useful with intermittent players.
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@nosig:
Irregular turnout is, sometimes, having to see if we can get a 4th person, so even one table can go off. I don't think I have seen, on the current day, more than about 12 people show up. Heck, the first timew I had to GM on this day was because we ran over a 6 player table, and I would prefer not to play at 7 player tables. I pulled up In Service to Lore on my tablet, and ran it that way for a second table.
Scheduling for players, not GMs: Has to do with how small a list , especially of low tier scenarios, would be available to choose from if we try to setup the games so that I can join the other table, if mine doesn't go off.
Sorry, other than the current GMs, one of the players is on a hiatus from GMing, and the rest are all so shiny that they still have visible serial numbers.
The Warhorn we use is still new, and we are working against the inertia from the pre-signup days. Working on it, but far from done. Last time I looked, we had two GMs signed up (if you count that I took a verbal from someone to run 5-08 instead of my needing to), and two players (including myself) signed up for this Sunday's sessions. Oh, and all 4 people are the regular GM pool...
People not familiar with the scenarios: I mean that I would have to send some of them to Paizo's site to look at the Product list, they are so new. I am not sure some of them even realize that PFS is in Season 5 at this time. "Would you like to play blalh-blah-blah or blah-blah-blah?" gets blank stares.
We play on Sundays, and the store opens at 10 am, with a hard close time of 6 pm. Not to mention that some of us have to be at work somewhere else that same night. I used to try running there on Saturdays, when they stayed open until 11 pm or later, but the third time the cycle hit just me at the store, after spending 90 minutes on buses to get there, I just sort of gave up.
The person who should be coordinating the game day, the GM who started the Sunday games, is not able to attend very often, anymore, due to a change in his job schedule. He is one of the people who works on Sundays...
As an added fillip: we just had our third VC retire. No idea if anyone is willing to stepup, or if Mike is going to just turn off the position for our area. I don't think I could fulfill the position, given my lack of reliable transport to visit local game stores...