HE's also ignoring the fact his 'instantaneous' quote is referring to two different spells. NOT the same spell twice, which falls under the 'same source' rule and disqualifies itself.
Eh. I don't mind looking at some loopholes, but this trick is not one of them and doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
No, it is referring to the same spell or multiples of it. Instantaneous spells are different from most spells in that once they are cast they are no longer affecting you. Ie. Once Awaken is cast, there is no spell affecting you merely the results of the spell which is the increased HD, INT and CHA. This is why what MattR1986 and I assume Aelryinth are referring to namely;
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Does not apply here. It applies in situations where you have a spell effect like say Bull's Strength and then another Bull's Strength is cast on you. Once you cast Awaken, however it is no longer operating you on. It did its work instantaneously and is no longer affecting you. When you cast the second Awaken, you are not under the effects of Awaken. You may gotten a benefit from the past, but the spell itself is no longer in effect (due to it being instantaneous).
Thus we need to look at the section covering instantaneous. And that explicitly clears up how things that do not continuing operating after being cast work by noting that they stack cumulatively with each other. I'm sorry you don't like it, but its very very RAW.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I'm just not really understanding what's so tremendous about having infinite HD and CHA?
I mean... at level 20 the possibility would exist of going toe-to-toe with a level 20 arcane caster and all the ridiculousness they have to offer. Are you immune to trap the soul or baleful polymorph? Seems an ignoble end to someone that also had to spend infinite time to reach these infinite stats.
Also, does this come into effect (from 'Awaken' on pfsrd)?:
To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal's current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
A Nature Oracle would benefit more from CHA then most others as they can add it to their Initiative, their AC, their Saves and obviously it will make their Saving Throw DCs insane. Also, thanks to Paragon Surge, the Nature Oracle has access to the entire Sorcerer/Wizard list and thus is effectively both a level 20 arcane and divine caster.
Yes, you must succeed on a will save, but remember that your CHA adds to saves and you will gain bonuses to saves from your increased hit dice. This should balance out for the most part, as the save gets astronomically high so will your bonus to will saves. Even if for some reason that is not the case, you simply need to a roll a 20 on the save to continue the process. There are a number of ways to get rerolls to make this more likely and its not like you only have access to one awaken a day.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I'm just not really understanding what's so tremendous about having infinite HD and CHA?
I mean... at level 20 the possibility would exist of going toe-to-toe with a level 20 arcane caster and all the ridiculousness they have to offer. Are you immune to trap the soul or baleful polymorph? Seems an ignoble end to someone that also had to spend infinite time to reach these infinite stats.
Also, does this come into effect (from 'Awaken' on pfsrd)?:
To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal's current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).
That means the thing cant be killed by hit points, and any ability that forces a saves based on HD is can only be passed with a nat 20.
Also in PF, anything a PC can do, an NPC can also do. Do you really want a sorcerer or any other caster that is casting spells that make you autofail. At that point the BBEG just says "you lose". No dice rolls are even needed
Does anyone have a link to where this trick is spelled out in detail?
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Does anyone have a link to where this trick is spelled out in detail?
I don't know that one exists, but I can give a pretty decent quick breakdown.
So the two major abilities are as follows:
Awaken
School transmutation; Level druid 5
CASTING
Casting Time 24 hours
Components V, S, M (herbs and oils worth 2,000 gp), DF
EFFECT
Range touch
Target animal or tree touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal's current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. If you cast awaken again, any previously awakened creatures remain friendly to you, but they no longer undertake tasks for you unless it is in their best interests.
An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human's.
An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can't serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.
An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an Intelligence greater than 2.
The important take aways from this is that in order to benefit you must be a tree or animal with an intelligence of 2 or less. And if you want to benefit from it multiple times, you'll need to be able to turn back into a tree or animal after the change occurs. Obviously, becoming a tree is a little tricky, but luckily there is a way to become an animal (a very rare effect) and it allows you do so multiple time (very important). Namely the following ability:
At 20th level, you have discovered the intrinsic secrets of life itself, granting you incredible control over your own body. Once per day, you can surround yourself with an organic cocoon as a full-round action. While enclosed in the cocoon, you are considered helpless. Eight hours later, you emerge having changed your type to plant, animal, or humanoid, gaining superficial physical characteristics as appropriate (see the Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary). This change does not alter your Hit Dice, hit points, saving throws, skill points, class skills, or proficiencies. Each time the transformation is made, you are cleansed of all poisons or diseases, are restored to full hit points, and heal all ability damage. You must select a new type every time the transformation is made.
Now we can only get one Awakening a day (though with a fast time demiplane you can get 2 per outside day), but this ability allows us to actually change our type and thus qualify for the animal part of Awaken. Furthermore, it will let us remove the magical beast type that Awaken grants us, thus setting us up to do it again.
The process goes as follows:
Step 1. Use Nature Oracle capstone to turn into an animal.
Step 2. Use a method to drain your INT to 2 (I recommend a Lorthact simulacrum for this part since it can do 1 INT at a time).
Step 3. You are now an animal and have 2 INT, you thus qualify to be targeted by Awaken.
Step 4. Have Awaken cast on you. If you want to do this the free way, have a minion/simulacrum cast a Wish duplicating Awaken to negate the cost. They may not succeed on their Will Save, but eventually one will roll a 20. Alternatively you could set a Contingency Awaken, though this will cost you money.
Step 5. Awaken takes effect. You gain +2 HD, 3d6 Intelligence (RAW this appears to overwrite your INT, so this will not increase, however with Maximize you are looking at an 18 INT, more if you Empower it), +1d3 CHA and become a magical beast. Unlike Intelligence, the CHA is a + to the existing stat. Note that Awaken is instantaneous and is no longer affecting you after it resolves.
Step 6. Repeat Step 1. This will require waiting a day.
HE's also ignoring the fact his 'instantaneous' quote is referring to two different spells. NOT the same spell twice, which falls under the 'same source' rule and disqualifies itself.
Eh. I don't mind looking at some loopholes, but this trick is not one of them and doesn't work.
==Aelryinth
I wanted to look at this for a moment.
If this logic were correct, fireball would be a one-use-only effect for any given creature.
Look, let's look at what it says together:
Combining Magic Effects
Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).
Okay, usually (vague term) bonuses don't stack from the same spell. It also notes that "more generally" (vague term) two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells... which makes sense because they're the same bonus type.
However...
The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that doesn't have a type stacks with any bonus.
... is being brought up, opposed to...
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
... which unfortunately are negated by...
Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.
How do we parse all of this together?
Usually bonuses don't stack with each other from the same spell (but, by extension, sometimes they do). Bonuses of the same type don't stack regardless of the source (unless they don't have a type, in which case they do). Usually the last spell that creates the "similar but different" effect trumps other spells (unless it's instantaneous, in which case they work cumulatively).
This is the only way of taking all these rules without conflicting with each other that I can see. Anything else seems to be twisting words.
Casting Time: 24 hours
Target: touched animal
Duration: instantaneous
Note: This spell does not function on an animal or plant with an intelligence greater than 2.
These are all pretty important things. It doesn't matter how many 5th level spells you've got in a day, you can't do it more than once per 24 hours.
Benefit: if you succeed at a will save (DC 10+current HD) to grant the animal 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 CHA, and +2HD; it becomes a magical beast (meaning that it can't, under normal circumstances, be the recipient of this effect more than once).
So... an oracle could, in theory, grant itself 1-3 additional points of charisma, two additional hit dice, and an intelligence ranging from 3 to 18, and the magical beast subtype (though they gain none of the benefits, really). Okay... so why is that a big deal?
To understand that, let's look at the oracle with the nature mystery.
This trick doesn't come online until 20th level, when the oracle receives their final revelation.
At 20th level, you have discovered the intrinsic secrets of life itself, granting you incredible control over your own body. Once per day, you can surround yourself with an organic cocoon as a full-round action. While enclosed in the cocoon, you are considered helpless. Eight hours later, you emerge having changed your type to plant, animal, or humanoid, gaining superficial physical characteristics as appropriate (see the Pathfinder RPG Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary). This change does not alter your Hit Dice, hit points, saving throws, skill points, class skills, or proficiencies. Each time the transformation is made, you are cleansed of all poisons or diseases, are restored to full hit points, and heal all ability damage. You must select a new type every time the transformation is made.
The bolded is the important part. Were you an aasimar? Well... you can become a humanoid instead of outsider! Were you an awakened ooze? Well... now you can become a plant! Were you an undead? Feel free to become an () animal!
... and the last thing is the most important part. It doesn't matter what you were before... you can become an animal.
The only thing lacking is the "INT above 2", which, you know, you'd automatically have every time... which is why you have an INT-drain assistant of some sort (be it magic item or simulacra-buddy or whatever you like).
If you started off as a half-elf (though there might be something you can do with samsaran or scion of humanity aasimar plus racial heritage (elf or half-elf), but I don't know), you also have access to paragon surge.
So now, practically speaking, (most) every spell in the game (or at least your spell-list), and the ability to (more or less) infinitely increase your hit dice and charisma (though the increasing DC due to ever-higher-hit dice does put a practical limit, outside of natural 20s, after a while).
In any event, while it thoroughly looks like this works, RAW, a GM is entirely within their purview to just say "no", and, in fact, if it doesn't work for their game to allow this thing to happen at 20th level, then they shouldn't allow this thing to work at 20th level. Of course, you've got to get to 20th level, so you've got an entire campaign to play before you get there (barring using mythic as expansion-after-20th).
Hope that helps everyone!
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In any event, while it thoroughly looks like this works, RAW, a GM is entirely within their purview to just say "no", and, in fact, if it doesn't work for their game to allow this thing to happen at 20th level, then they shouldn't allow this thing to work at 20th level. Of course, you've got to get to 20th level, so you've got an entire campaign to play before you get there (barring using mythic as expansion-after-20th).
If I had a caster try to start an infinite power loop, I would allow them the attempt.
Also, if using Golarion deities, I would have Achaekek fulfill the purpose for which he was created.
He isn't that tough unfortunately :(
Sure he is. (And if the task is big enough, Big A is likely to grant him a little boost). The above loop takes a lot of time, and Achaekek only has to visit while the oracle is helpless.
Voila: no more oracle.
Also, there's nothing to stop Achaekek from using the same infinite wish loops anyone else uses - Achaekek can't cast spells, but magic items exist, and, being lawful evil and not a genie, Achaekek probably knows at least one genie that would be willing to help a brother out. And that's all he needs, really. Just the one.
Regardless, this is irrelevant: the OP was asking about uber builds in actual play. I've made one, but (sadly) retired him for the GM's sake.
The problem with trying to over-power the GM has always been two-fold: if you can do it, so can the GM; and the GM always has the right to say "no".
I enjoy the crazy combinations and super powers. I don't enjoy ruining other peoples' fun. Those don't always work well together, but I like it when they do.
Does anyone have a link to where this trick is spelled out in detail?Anzyr's breakdown
Ok, so it is rules legal. Before reading the capstone I thought it just automatically made you into an animal upon reaching 20. I did not it had a reset button that allowed you to keep doing it. The thing about instantaneous spells is that they have no duration so once they affect you they can still affect you again barring certain situations.
PS: To anyone reading this and about to argue about the power of it, I don't think this was an intended consequence, but that is different than not being rules legal.
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In any event, while it thoroughly looks like this works, RAW, a GM is entirely within their purview to just say "no", and, in fact, if it doesn't work for their game to allow this thing to happen at 20th level, then they shouldn't allow this thing to work at 20th level. Of course, you've got to get to 20th level, so you've got an entire campaign to play before you get there (barring using mythic as expansion-after-20th).If I had a caster try to start an infinite power loop, I would allow them the attempt.
Also, if using Golarion deities, I would have Achaekek fulfill the purpose for which he was created.
There are times I would have done something like this or twisted wished, but now I just say no, and I would hope a GM would do the same for me. Not that I would try anything like this, but to him my tactic might be cheese.
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I enjoy the crazy combinations and super powers. I don't enjoy ruining other peoples' fun. Those don't always work well together, but I like it when they do.Personally I think the far more common problem is the trivial ability to overshadow other characters without ever meaning or trying to. If three players choose fighter, rogue and monk as their class and the fourth decides to play a druid then the stark differences are pretty likely to show up very quickly at even basic levels of rules familiarity.
That depends on the players. A fighter could still do well in that game. A monk could to, but it would someone with high system mastery. I will also add that that the druid would have to try to outstrip everyone. If all of the players are of equal skill it should be much of an issue.
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There are times I would have done something like this or twisted wished, but now I just say no, and I would hope a GM would do the same for me. Not that I would try anything like this, but to him my tactic might be cheese.
I would only pull a move like that for someone insisting against all arguments their can can exploit a loophole in RAW to become tremendously overpowered.
It would also most likely be the final scenario for a long running campaign. Heck, they may even succeed, if they can survive.
You... tell it what to do in advance. That... doesn't seem hard.
Oh, wait, "But then the GM gets to interpret, blah-blah", yeah, no, let me just go ahead and tell you to say "no" to the idea. Pulling a jerk move is a jerk thing regardless of whether or not the other person is being a jerk.
So...any uber build aside from this? Or are we just going to talk about this (from what I can tell) completely RAW acceptable build?
I'm still kinda confused as to what the definition of "uber build" here is; so far I've gathered it means infinite power loops only.
Well uber is subjective for the most part. I mentioned a few characters that I played that I certainly think qualify (Gravewalker Witch and Lunar Oracle) and to a lesser extent a simple Conjuration Wizard (Diviner, especially Foresight would be stronger for sure). But are those the "best of the best"? Eh... the Lunar Oracle might be up there especially if I added Celestial Obediance (Arshea) to it. But really outside of the really crazy stuff "uber" is tricky to determine.
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I'm partial to the Kensai Magus personally :), I'm about to test it up against Beastmass 1. Predictions is that it would be able to handle it better than the Zen Archer, since the Kensai can expend arcane pool to use reflection to deal with the Pit Lord's 1/year wish (though at a steep price).
Samsaran
STR: 4 DEX: 10 CON: 6 INT: 22 WIS: 12 CHA: 10
At level 20 (with Greater Age Resistance casted):
STR: 10 DEX: 20 CON: 12 INT: 38 WIS: 19 CHA: 10
Resist Energy (Wizard 2)
Echolocation (Alchemist 4)
Greater Age Resistance (Alchemist 5)
Dance of a Thousand Cuts (Bard 6)
Greater Dispel Magic (Bard 5)
Freedom of Movement (Bard 4)
Dimensional Anchor (Summ 3)
Traits:
Magical Lineage: Frostbite? SG?
Bruising Intellect
Feats:
1. *Weapon Focus
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Enforcer
5. Rime Spell
5. Quickdraw
7. Greater Weapon Focus
9. Critical Focus
11. Elemental Spell
11. Bleeding Critical
13. Dazzling Display
15. Shatter Defenses
17. Staggering Critical
17. Critical Mastery
19. Extra Arcana: Reflection
Arcana:
3 Arcane Accuracy
6 Empowered Magic
12 Accurate Strike
15 Quicken Arcana
18 Bane
20 Reflection
Items:
+1 Agile, Cruel, Merciful, Keen Wakishazi
+1 Greater Dispelling Wakishazi
+1 Impervious Spell Storing Anchoring Adamentium Wakizhasi
Armor:
Greater Energy Resistence Fire,
Determination, Silken Ceremonial Robe
+6 int/wis 90,000
+6 dex/con belt 90,000
Otherworldly Kimono 67,000
Sandals of Quick Reaction 4,000
Crown of Conquests 24,600
Amulet Natural armor +5 50,000
Ring of Protection +5 50,000
Ring of Arcane Mastery 20,000
polymorphic pouch 5,000
Gloves of Storing 5,000
Eyes of the Eagle 2,500
2 Cracked Pale Green Prisms 8000
Lavender and Green Ellipsoid 40,000
wands rods, and scrolls
Shield 750
Mage Armor 750
2x Wand of Infernal Heal
Extend Metmagic 3,000
Used Items:
Tome +5 of Intelligence 137,500
Manual +4 Dexterity 110,000
If your familiar with how the frostbite build operates, you'll know why this build is uber :)
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There are times I would have done something like this or twisted wished, but now I just say no, and I would hope a GM would do the same for me. Not that I would try anything like this, but to him my tactic might be cheese.In any event, while it thoroughly looks like this works, RAW, a GM is entirely within their purview to just say "no", and, in fact, if it doesn't work for their game to allow this thing to happen at 20th level, then they shouldn't allow this thing to work at 20th level. Of course, you've got to get to 20th level, so you've got an entire campaign to play before you get there (barring using mythic as expansion-after-20th).If I had a caster try to start an infinite power loop, I would allow them the attempt.
Also, if using Golarion deities, I would have Achaekek fulfill the purpose for which he was created.
Have to agree on this point. If you don't want a player doing something, a straight no is always better than a "Yes, but I'm going to passive-aggressively punish you for it."
My GMing style is more aggressively-passive.
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Ninja'd by six minutes, dang it, Anzyr! :D:Tends to happen, given that he has arbitrarily high initiative, ninjaing mortals must be pretty easy!
Arbitrary high initiatives are good, but I need to figure out what ability lets Tacticslion makes such detailed posts. Especially since it goes way more into depth on the "instantaneous duration" thing.
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I'm partial to the Kensai Magus personally :), I'm about to test it up against Beastmass 1. Predictions is that it would be able to handle it better than the Zen Archer, since the Kensai can expend arcane pool to use reflection to deal with the Pit Lord's 1/year wish (though at a steep price).
I don't see how a pit fiend would get a spell off with the kensai.
You auto-win initiative and shut down his SLA's with Lingering Pain.Zen archer should also win initiative, but there is always the crappy roll.
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I'd say they're builds that trivialize encounters, although honestly most 'uber' builds are able to do plenty of things except for martial minded ones.I have a few fighters and barbarians that trivialize most content.
Most classes can with with a sufficiently optimized build.
Again, I don't see the singular focus as Uber, but I'm sure that's what the OP meant.
I guess for the Uber build, they meant something that only did one thing incredibly well, and to accomplish that, it'd have to go first, so initiative would be brutally important. But most spell casting Ubers are varied enough to respond to just about any situation.
I'd say they're builds that trivialize encounters, although honestly most 'uber' builds are able to do plenty of things except for martial minded ones.I have a few fighters and barbarians that trivialize most content.
Most classes can with with a sufficiently optimized build.
Again, I don't see the singular focus as Uber, but I'm sure that's what the OP meant.
I guess for the Uber build, they meant something that only did one thing incredibly well, and to accomplish that, it'd have to go first, so initiative would be brutally important. But most spell casting Ubers are varied enough to respond to just about any situation.
Yeah, the OP seemed to be thinking of hyper-focused one-trick-pony characters when he thinks of uber builds. Personally, I don't find those sorts of builds particularly uber since they tend to be very weak at handling anything other than their one trick.
Personally, I'd class an uber build as a character who does everything for the party, to the point where everyone else feels like a sidekick NPC.
Ok, I don't want to get into semantic definitions of exactly what is meant by uber, optimized, focused, or whatever.
Yes, a witch has things other than a slumber hex. But if the person does nothing except slumber hex, ignores any other possible action, and just sits there when slumber hex is not an option; does it really matter?
Yes, the blaster could have something else. But what if he never does? He's got: scorching ray, empower scorching ray, maximized scorching ray, intensified scorching ray, empowered intensified scorching ray, etc... Sure it was effective in combats with opponents that could be affected by scorching ray. However, I found it boring just being next to him. And outside of combat he just sat there.
Yes, the max physical stat axe-o-matic does horrific melee damage. But some of these builds allow virtually nothing else. Is that really fun?
Most of the examples cited above are actually not what I was talking about. They do have and actually utilize their flexibility. They are not focused on exclusively 1 type of combat and nothing else.
A few months ago there was a build with a wis of 10 (might have been 11), int of 7, and charisma of 5. It was a mostly fighter dwarf. Several people were talking about how good it was. I know a person at my PFS local who will probably run it exactly as written if he sees it. But he will probably also be bored a lot of the time we are playing.
Obviously doesn't know how to play blasters..
You OBVIOUSLY use Fireball. Combine Wayang Spell-hunter and Meta-Magic Master with Spell Perfection to cast Intesified/Dazing/Empowered Fireballs...
And even the blaster caster still utilizies haste, fly, ect.... or else teh fighter is pretty much boned....
...You are mistaken, deeply so Silentman73. The only uber builds that multiclass/prestige class are from 3.5. I can't think of many PF builds that are truly uber that multiclass more then 1 single level and I can't think of any that take Prestige classes. And no one considers 3rd party material at all when creating uber builds, so that's just plain incorrect.There are players who enjoy the one-trick pony types; they really like doing some things, and are content if their GM lets them do those things. That's great if it's the type of game they're playing, but when they're looking for a particular kind of game that isn't available, they can become discouraged.
When I see "uber-build" as a phrase, I tend to think about the overoptimized multi-class/prestige class/unending third-party-resource-using builds that are near-guaranteed to one-shot most anything within a 5-6 CR range of their level. It's, again, great if those players are in a game with like-minded players, but when they aren't, the other players wind up becoming, functionally, their cleanup crew, and that stops being fun very quickly. I pity the GM that doesn't get a scenario like that under control with "the quickness". System mastery is nice, but I think those players lose sight of the game's ultimate goal of fun for everyone, not just for them. I just think back to my 3.5 dragon-wildshaping Druid with an ongoing AC of 72... :(
Power is fun. Optimization can even be fun. But sometimes I think GMs can be too lenient, and need to be willing to say "Nope, you can't use that." I still recall, before I took a several-month break towards the end of 3.5 (I came back to playing with 4th Edition), considering running a campaign where the players had access to no books other than the Core Rulebooks (which, as a player, meant they had the Player's Handbook). It was really appealing to me after months of severe power-gaming in 3.5 to strip the game back to its fundamental elements.
Um.... what....
Your just wrong... The power builds are all mostly single classes with a dip elsewhere. Case a point:
Half-Elf Oracle with Skill Focus: Know (Any)+Eldritch Heritage Arcane+Paragon Surge spell. With this combo the Half-elf pretty much has every Cleric AND wizard spell on command. If you want to really power build it you take the lunar mystery and get the revelations that let you replace Dex with Cha for AC and reflex and the revelation that gives you an Animal Companion. What you do then is use the elf FC bonus to treat your effective level for your animal companion revelation as +1/2 higher per tiem invested. This lets your Animal Companion effectively be the AC of a level 30 druid....
IAMBARBARIAN: Pretty much barb.... nothing else...
*InsertMagusHere*: Pretty much pure magus....
Vivisectionist-Beastmorph Alchemist: Again, single class...
need I continue?
PF prestige classes are pretty much mostly bad... the exceptions are:
Champion of the Irori w/Old Crane wing
Mystic Theurge if you abuse early entry rules
Eldritch Knight into Arcane Archer w/early entry from Wizard 1/Fighter 1
Bloatmage W/early entry for evocation mages.
I know I am missing a few but I can't remember off the top of my head... but a good majority of them are trash...
Obviously just saying "no" is the first solution but if someone wanted to be a royal pain in the ass and cry tyranny and raw to allow this absurd exploit, I'd probably make sure their character was permanently a tree and have the other PCs relieve themself and their companions/familiars on you or hang a nice swing from you. Can't play a new char if yours is still alive. Lesson learned from being a douche. Obviously I wouldn't wait 2 years for them to get to 20th to try this, it'd be if we were already at really high levels.
Its also technically raw to pay 14% on income through loopholes and flaws in the system, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed if it can be.
I was assuming the person was reasonable, but maybe did not understand the power of what they were asking for. Otherwise I eject them from my table. :)
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Ok I can see why that would bother you if you started a super high level game and then two weeks in someone tried it, but if you played a game from low level and got to 20 and decided now the time is right to assume your "rightful mantle" in the pantheon through a series of costly and potentially dangerous rituals, sure why not. It's an endgame strategy.
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I would like to see you post them in any of andreww's beastmass or character benchmark threads! I am interested to see how they actually do
I have a few fighters and barbarians that trivialize most content.Most classes can with with a sufficiently optimized build.
I'd honestly consider the Character Benchmark thread better for this. Beastmass is nice, but it deals with only combat potential (albeit combat potential against a wide variety of foes), while a truly Uber character should be able to contribute in every situation.
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Again, I don't see the singular focus as Uber, but I'm sure that's what the OP meant.I'd say they're builds that trivialize encounters, although honestly most 'uber' builds are able to do plenty of things except for martial minded ones.I have a few fighters and barbarians that trivialize most content.
Most classes can with with a sufficiently optimized build.
Who said they had a singular focus?
You are right. Banning someone from a server for being a jerk and hacking makes you a complete jerk. Shooting a criminal committing a violent felony makes you a total jerk as well.
First sentence: Thank you! :D
Second sentence: false analogy. :DThird sentence: ridiculously false analogy (and can get you jailed in some states)*. :D
Harming the property or person of another is totally the same as finding a powerful combination in game (except for the everything about it, which is different; there may be a mild similarity in that it makes some people unhappy, whereas the other two make people exceedingly unhappy).
Please, Matt, stop doing this sort of thing - it does you no favors and makes you look desperate and slightly silly... which I suspect you are not either (for example, I suspect, should you be interested in actually researching the topics linked above, you would go further than wikipedia). This is one of the reasons that others have requested that you stop posting like a jerk. I'm sure you're not... but it can certainly come off that way in how you present yourself and your posts.
Thus, I'm asking you, politely, to change the manner in which you post for the good of yourself and the good of all of us who interact with you. You will garner more respect, and be seen as all-around more reasonable and well-thought-out.
Thank you! :D
* Not that I agree with this policy, but it's worth being aware of. You can actually get put into jail and serve time because you stopped violence. Sad, but, the state of things. :/
Arbitrary high initiatives are good, but I need to figure out what ability lets Tacticslion makes such detailed posts. Especially since it goes way more into depth on the "instantaneous duration" thing.Ninja'd by six minutes, dang it, Anzyr! :D:Tends to happen, given that he has arbitrarily high initiative, ninjaing mortals must be pretty easy!
I took Skill Focus (Pedantry). That, plus maximum ranks in Perform (Windbag). :D
Obviously just saying "no" is the first solution but if someone wanted to be a royal pain in the ass and cry tyranny and raw to allow this absurd exploit, I'd probably make sure their character was permanently a tree and have the other PCs relieve themself and their companions/familiars on you or hang a nice swing from you. Can't play a new char if yours is still alive. Lesson learned from being a douche. Obviously I wouldn't wait 2 years for them to get to 20th to try this, it'd be if we were already at really high levels.
Its also technically raw to pay 14% on income through loopholes and flaws in the system, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed if it can be.
Ok I can see why that would bother you if you started a super high level game and then two weeks in someone tried it, but if you played a game from low level and got to 20 and decided now the time is right to assume your "rightful mantle" in the pantheon through a series of costly and potentially dangerous rituals, sure why not. It's an endgame strategy.
See, these two things right here is a major source of the disagreement. As I've indicated, multiple times, my baseline presumption is that this is an endgame effect. For whatever reason (perhaps a tendency to start at higher levels), others have been seemingly taking it, "You show up at the game with a level 20 character ready to cheeze the system because dirty powergamer." (the last part of which really rubs me the wrong way).
As others have said, I suspect we'd all be far more reasonable in-person. It just doesn't always come off that way in the forums.
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Who said they had a singular focus?Again, I don't see the singular focus as Uber, but I'm sure that's what the OP meant.I'd say they're builds that trivialize encounters, although honestly most 'uber' builds are able to do plenty of things except for martial minded ones.I have a few fighters and barbarians that trivialize most content.
Most classes can with with a sufficiently optimized build.
From the OP:
I see some of the build recommendations here that I might use for ideas, but I would never really try them as written. They are often hugely focused, have 2 dump stats, the classic 1 trick pony, etc…
Any potential difficulties are just dusted over.
- You only have 1 skill point. Fighters don’t have skills so losing one doesn’t make any difference…
- You would have no social skills. It doesn’t matter since low social skills are worse than none…
- Sometimes you can’t wear full plate armor. It won’t matter to me since I won’t go to those places…
- You have no defense. PF only rewards offense…
- Some things don’t have a mind to take over. Not a problem since…
- But what about… I’ll just role play…
This seems to denote singular (combat) focus.
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This seems to denote singular (combat) focus.Who said they had a singular focus?Again, I don't see the singular focus as Uber, but I'm sure that's what the OP meant.I'd say they're builds that trivialize encounters, although honestly most 'uber' builds are able to do plenty of things except for martial minded ones.I have a few fighters and barbarians that trivialize most content.
Most classes can with with a sufficiently optimized build.
Take the statement in context.
I have....
I prefer characters with options. Narrowly focused character tend to run into hard counters eventually.
I'm actually really interested in seeing the Fighter that can trivialize social situations without destroying his combat ability.
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This seems to denote singular (combat) focus.Who said they had a singular focus?Again, I don't see the singular focus as Uber, but I'm sure that's what the OP meant.I'd say they're builds that trivialize encounters, although honestly most 'uber' builds are able to do plenty of things except for martial minded ones.I have a few fighters and barbarians that trivialize most content.
Most classes can with with a sufficiently optimized build.
Take the statement in context.
I have....
I prefer characters with options. Narrowly focused character tend to run into hard counters eventually.
Thus the difference between Uber and One Trick Pony.
Uber does everything.
One Trick Pony does one thing well, which it seems the OP was talking about, and again, seemingly exclusively in a martial sense.
The phrasing used might be a legacy of the old - very old - 'ubercharger' build from 3.5, which was made to produce damage in scientific notation. People took to calling almost all charge-based builds 'uberchargers' for awhile after that, and the phrasing can still be seen on some forums.
Ubercharging refers to any character that can kill in one round on the charge. Optimized uberchargers can kill mountains.
==Aelryinth