I've got an upcoming scenario where the players will be approaching guards in the dark and they'll likely have torches out. I need to know when the guards spot the players (or their torch light) so I knowish how many rounds/minutes they have to react to the encroaching players. I don't need a specific rule, just something that can get me in the ballpark.
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Assuming clear line of sight and it being night, the torch should be obvious from thousands of feet away. Of course, if the guards are distracted, or the players can keep the torch itself shielded (light sources are easier to see than spill-over light), the range will be lower.
Yeah, line of site means a lot in this. Are the players marching through the woods up to a castle? Are they out on the open plains? Are they walking up the side of a mountain?
People carrying torches at night are highly visible to those out in the dark. If you have a clear line of sight you could probably see them coming from a mile or two away.
If we're talking about at night, and the players are carrying torches... then as soon as there is a line of visibility the players will be spoted. Unless they take precaution not to be seen, which would have to include shielding their light source.
A single candle on a dark night can be spotted as far as 30 miles away.
So basically, if your players are approaching from an open field and have visible torches the guards will really have all the time they want/need to buff as much as they like.
However, they could also be expecting someone or something and would have no way of identifying the PCs until they got relatively close.
I also wouldn't allow the PCs to attempt use stealth while carrying lit torches.
Miles and miles. Assume a +60 or so to Perception.
I've got an upcoming scenario where the players will be approaching guards in the dark and they'll likely have torches out. I need to know when the guards spot the players (or their torch light) so I knowish how many rounds/minutes they have to react to the encroaching players. I don't need a specific rule, just something that can get me in the ballpark.
I've encountered this problem before. The guards would have plenty of time to see the approaching PCs. Given these are guards, they would have all the time in the world to prep for the PCs since, as guards, they don't need much time to prep. Hell, they could send for reinforcements and all if necessary. Multiple TPK's in the past has led most every gaming group I run to NEVER use light sources because the light source carrying characters they played in the past were so obvious in subterranean situations, stealth-oriented adventures, or anything ever at night.
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You should probably point this out to the players, as its something that would be obvious to their characters unless they have the combined wisdom score of an ergot addled lemming.
Miles and miles. Assume a +60 or so to Perception.
Perception checks don't factor in unless people are trying to be stealthy, and you can't (or at least shouldn't) be able to use stealth while carrying an obvious light source in the dark of night.
The guards might not see the PCs specifically, but they will see that light from a long long distance. No point in adding a perception check. The guards see it, and they see it with potentially a very long time to prepare.
Miles and miles. Assume a +60 or so to Perception.Perception checks don't factor in unless people are trying to be stealthy,
Yes, they do. Remember that distance is also a factor for noticing things via perception.
From the SRD: "Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
Noticing "the sounds of battle" or "the stench of rotting garbage" are both defined as a -10 DC, so any fool will notice that he's standing in the middle of a battle. But there's also a +1 penalty to the DC per ten feet, so a battle 500 feet away would have an effective 40 DC, beyond the capacity of most first level characters without some major situational modifiers.
Miles and miles. Assume a +60 or so to Perception.Perception checks don't factor in unless people are trying to be stealthy,Yes, they do. Remember that distance is also a factor for noticing things via perception.
From the SRD: "Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
Noticing "the sounds of battle" or "the stench of rotting garbage" are both defined as a -10 DC, so any fool will notice that he's standing in the middle of a battle. But there's also a +1 penalty to the DC per ten feet, so a battle 500 feet away would have an effective 40 DC, beyond the capacity of most first level characters without some major situational modifiers.
Which is exactly why you shouldn't apply the perception rules here. They break down at large distance. It isn't wise to use them.
You can see light from very far distances. Think about it like this, we see the sun. Only because of the light it emits. If we apply the perception rules it is impossible to notice the sun or moon, but clearly they are seen. Don't use the perception rules in a situaiton they are unsuited for. They simply don't apply.
As I stated, the human eye can see the light of a single candle up to 30 miles away in complete dark. On a star lit night, it will be reduced. But we're likely still in the realm of miles of distance.
Which is exactly why you shouldn't apply the perception rules here. They break down at large distance.Miles and miles. Assume a +60 or so to Perception.Perception checks don't factor in unless people are trying to be stealthy,Yes, they do. Remember that distance is also a factor for noticing things via perception.
From the SRD: "Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
Noticing "the sounds of battle" or "the stench of rotting garbage" are both defined as a -10 DC, so any fool will notice that he's standing in the middle of a battle. But there's also a +1 penalty to the DC per ten feet, so a battle 500 feet away would have an effective 40 DC, beyond the capacity of most first level characters without some major situational modifiers.
Not at all. Simply apply appropriate situational modifiers, which the GM is at license to do within the rules.
Thanks all! They're in a cave so they need the light to move around. Seems like the guards will be fully prepped by the time the players arrive.
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Miles and miles. Assume a +60 or so to Perception.Perception checks don't factor in unless people are trying to be stealthy,Yes, they do. Remember that distance is also a factor for noticing things via perception.
From the SRD: "Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
Noticing "the sounds of battle" or "the stench of rotting garbage" are both defined as a -10 DC, so any fool will notice that he's standing in the middle of a battle. But there's also a +1 penalty to the DC per ten feet, so a battle 500 feet away would have an effective 40 DC, beyond the capacity of most first level characters without some major situational modifiers.
The light from a torch in a dark cave isn't exactly a fine detail. Perception check unnecessary unless the guard was distracted.
The light from a torch in a dark cave isn't exactly a fine detail. Perception check unnecessary unless the guard was distracted.Miles and miles. Assume a +60 or so to Perception.Perception checks don't factor in unless people are trying to be stealthy,Yes, they do. Remember that distance is also a factor for noticing things via perception.
From the SRD: "Perception is also used to notice fine details in the environment. The DC to notice such details varies depending upon distance, the environment, and how noticeable the detail is. The following table gives a number of guidelines."
Noticing "the sounds of battle" or "the stench of rotting garbage" are both defined as a -10 DC, so any fool will notice that he's standing in the middle of a battle. But there's also a +1 penalty to the DC per ten feet, so a battle 500 feet away would have an effective 40 DC, beyond the capacity of most first level characters without some major situational modifiers.
Exactly
A single candle on a dark night can be spotted as far as 30 miles away.
The Earth's surface curves out of sight at a distance of 3.1 miles, or 5 kilometers.
If Earth were flat, or if you were standing atop a mountain surveying a larger-than-usual patch of the planet, you could perceive bright lights hundreds of miles distant. On a dark night, you could even see a candle flame flickering up to 30 mi. (48 km) away.
Is Golarion flat?
I don't understand your point here. I was referring to the theoritical limits of vision, obviously there are mitigating circumstances.
If there were a candle 30 miles up in the sky with perfect visibility the human eye can theoritically see it. Realistically though there is too much ambient light in the sky to pick it out among the stars. We can clearly see visible light of varying intensity from extreme distances (i.e. the sun). My point was merely that the eye is more powerful than many people think about contextually.
For the OP, as soon as there is a line of sight between the torch and the guard he will notice it in the dark cave.
You can see light from very far distances. Think about it like this, we see the sun. Only because of the light it emits. If we apply the perception rules it is impossible to notice the sun or moon, but clearly they are seen. Don't use the perception rules in a situaiton they are unsuited for. They simply don't apply.
Ya, I always found it funny, by RAW no one could possibly see the sun, or a mountain range, or the ocean. RAW doesn't always work for everything.
Applying the modifier for a light in the dark is pretty silly, unless somehow the city has a lot of ambient lighting like a modern city. Ambient lighting drastically decreases how easy it is to spot other lights, so at that point I'd probably start to apply perception rules (at a decreased penalty though, maybe -1 for every 20 or 30 feet). But, unless its a steam punk game or the city has a lot of money for magical lighting, this seems unlikely to be the situation in most Pathfinder games.
RAW works fine in those instances. The sun is not a fine detail, nor is a mountain range or an ocean, unless you're looking at it from an astronomically significant distance.
A good question to ask is, will the guards see a light and say "Someone is approaching" or will they say "We're being attacked". If I were the player, I would prepare a ruse of some kind. Even if its not a great one, it might be enough to get the gate open