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In another thread we had a side discussion about what happen when you combine abilities and magical bonus so that you would exceed the +10 limit for enhancement and special abilities for weapons.
Let's start with a example where we only have magical bonuses from enchanted items:
A guy with a +1, axiomatic, holy, flaming burst bow (equivalent to +7 total bonus) fire a +5, ghost touch, arrow (equivalent to +6 total bonus)
The +1 and +5 enhancements overlap but the other abilities stack, so the arrow work as a +5, axiomatic, holy, ghost touch, flaming burst arrow, equivalent to +12 total bonus.
The enhancement limit for a weapon is +10.
So, what happen?
1) the character firing the arrow decide what abilities should be suppressed so that the +10 limit is respected?
2) the character can't notch the arrow to the bow as the excessive magical forces repel each other?
3) "It is an arrow, the only rule is: Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies., all the other effects aren't transferred to the ammunition, you only benefit from them, so there is no actual overlapping. You fire a +5 ken arrow that that benefit from axiomatic, holy, flaming burst."
(No one has tried that argument, but it is a possible reading of the rules)
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Now let's have some temporary effect.
Same scenario as above, but the arrow is +5 keen because someone has cast greater magic weapon at caster level 20 and keen weapon on it.
That give us option 4:
4) Temporary effects are suppressed till the item is compliant with the rules.
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Now we get our +1, axiomatic, holy, flaming burst bow (equivalent to +7 total bonus) and want to cast greater magic weapon at caster level 20 on it.
That would give us a total bonus of +11 (the straight +x enhancements overlap).
What we should do? We can temporarily suppress some of the bow bonuses or we should have to cast greater magic weapon at a lower caster level so that it only give a +4 bonus?
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Now let's move to melee weapon. We have a magus (or one of the other classes that can give extra bonuses to a weapon) with a +1, keen, holy, spell storing, ghost touch, wounding scimitar (equivalent to +8 total bonus) He is 17th level and he want to use his arcane pool to add to his weapon powers. He don't have any of the extra arcana giving other options for the weapon so he can't add abilities that overlap with those currently working on the weapon beside the +1.
Adding the +5 from Arcane bond would give the weapon a +13 bonus, +12 if he chose to overlap the existing +1 enhancement with another +1.
So what happen?
1) The magus can't use the arcane bond ability and substantially lose a major class feature?
2) he will have to use his ability arcane bond as a lower character level (and someone is arguing that it is not possible to do that)?
3) he get to choose what abilities are suppressed and what work?
Comments?
Edited to change keen to ghost touch in the first example.
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I thought you can't make keen arrows? Since arrows are not melee weapons?
RAW only with the Keen Edge spell that work on arrow and bolts. I will correct the first example. Thanks for the head up.
Though the keen edge spell would work, but that does not supply an enhancement bonus, so would not interact with your question.
It is a special ability with a equivalent enhancement bonus and the limit is:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
As spells don't list a equivalent enhancement bonus but can give special abilities to the weapon we should use the value given in the appropriate tables in the magic items section of the rules.
And Ï'd guess, that the latest effects which increase the weapon above a +10 bonus would not apply. So in case of the arrow + bow, the enhancements from the bow would be applied to the arrow. So you wouldn't get some of the enhancements from the bow.
If you can find a way to define latest.
The bow was enchanted 3,000 years ago, I have cast greater magic weapon on the arrow 5 minutes ago, but the arrow has received the bow bonus a split second ago when I notched it to the string. What is the latest effect?
There isnt anything really to debate.
IF i have a +1 bow with 8 worth of enchantments on it and i am a magus i can add... +1.. if i cast greater magic weapon.. nothing happens. Do you follow?
In the case of greater magic weapon it doesnt have to list an equivalent. As far as i know you could add keen no problem.
But you cant go above +10
There isnt anything really to debate.
IF i have a +1 bow with 8 worth of enchantments on it and i am a magus i can add... +1.. if i cast greater magic weapon.. nothing happens. Do you follow?
In the case of greater magic weapon it doesnt have to list an equivalent. As far as i know you could add keen no problem.
But you cant go above +10
The question is about situations where a weapon and ammunition are BOTH enchanted. If both have more than a +5 are you simply unable to use that ammunition with that weapon? By what you said, that would be a yes. But that simply doesn't make sense. So what DOES happen?
The +10 limit applies separately to the bow and to the arrows it fires -- there is no rule limiting the combination. We already have rules about their enhancement bonuses not stacking so use the higher one. I really don't see a problem here, especially since +10 arrows are darned expensive.
But it would be awesome to see a well chosen combination of special effects go off when you use that +5 bow with +5 worth of other bonuses to fire a +1 arrow with +9 worth of other bonuses at a big boss enemy.
so, David knott 242, you think that is is perfectly legal to fire an arrow that is +2 flaming burst, shocking burst, icy burst, corrosive burst from a +1 adaptive, bane, conductive, cruel, speed, igniting bow?
thats a bit or a stretch to say that everything listed is now applied...
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There isnt anything really to debate.
IF i have a +1 bow with 8 worth of enchantments on it and i am a magus i can add... +1.. if i cast greater magic weapon.. nothing happens. Do you follow?
In the case of greater magic weapon it doesnt have to list an equivalent. As far as i know you could add keen no problem.
But you cant go above +10
And how we should go around removing abilities when we use a bow and arrows?
The questions isn't "how we can go above +10?", it is "how we should go around removing abilities?"
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I think by the time a campaign has reached this point the DM will know what his answer to this question will be. For me I'd say go for it ... but I also might have issues with a Flaming Burst combined with Icy Burst etc. (as in that portion of footnote #4 that talks about "an ability incompatible with an ability that you've already rolled" and other similar diametrical abilities. But that really isn't the question here as I'm fairly sure one could come up with a combo of abilities not remotely conflicting if desired. You've effectively got a 'Epic' or 'Mythic' weapon listed and I'd treat it as such and have a little talk with the player if they were attempting to create such a combination to bypass the intent of the rules. If they found such as treasure well that would be my fault and I'll have to be more careful and let the player have some temporary fun with his superweapon till those arrows all get used.so, David knott 242, you think that is is perfectly legal to fire an arrow that is +2 flaming burst, shocking burst, icy burst, corrosive burst from a +1 adaptive, bane, conductive, cruel, speed, igniting bow?
thats a bit or a stretch to say that everything listed is now applied...
We can be capable to go above the +10 limit at level 9, with ease if there is a magus in the group or if someone use a bow. Both the AP that I have completely played gave you a weapon with more than a +5 equivalent bonus for the end of the 5th instalment of the AP so it isn't a unheard of occurrence.
Then there are the Pathfinder Society games.
Bow, arrows and some use of greater magic weapon, keen edge and class abilities can easily overcome that limit, and in PFS games the GM shouldn't be to one to carefully chose the treasures placement and he is the one that need a official rule.
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Same as with armor... the greater enchanted item overpowers and suppresses the latter. Whether it makes "sense" thems the rules.The question is about situations where a weapon and ammunition are BOTH enchanted. If both have more than a +5 are you simply unable to use that ammunition with that weapon? By what you said, that would be a yes. But that simply doesn't make sense. So what DOES happen?There isnt anything really to debate.
IF i have a +1 bow with 8 worth of enchantments on it and i am a magus i can add... +1.. if i cast greater magic weapon.. nothing happens. Do you follow?
In the case of greater magic weapon it doesnt have to list an equivalent. As far as i know you could add keen no problem.
But you cant go above +10
Show me where it say that.
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We can be capable to go above the +10 limit at level 9, with ease if there is a magus in the group or if someone use a bow. Both the AP that I have completely played gave you a weapon with more than a +5 equivalent bonus for the end of the 5th instalment of the AP so it isn't a unheard of occurrence.That's the definition of an Epic weapon or Artifact. The standard limitations for weapons and armor are for non-epic items.
But there is no rule on how you should select what powers work. and no rule that say that you can't use greater magic weapon, keen edge, a magus arcane pool, a inquisitor bane ability or some such on a artefact.
Table variation can be good ina home game, not in PFS.
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Gonna copy my posts from the other thread here for reference.
Summary:
1) You can't by RAW suppress a property already on a weapon. RAW doesn't say you can, and it definitely doesn't say how you choose what to suppress.
2) Since you can't by RAW suppress a property, properties are not added after +10 equivalent is reached.
3) Since order of addition is the determining factor, an arrow's properties override a bow's (a bow's properties are added to the arrow when the arrow is fired, so they're always the last property applied).
4) Houserules may be called for. Good options include: enhancement bonus is suppressed in favour of properties, most powerful properties are suppressed first, least powerful properties are suppressed first, or properties are suppressed/applied randomly.
5) Characters should employ good resource management so as not to stack too many weapon enhancement abilities (GMW, arcane pool, divine bond, ammunition).
Thus a +5 flaming keen weapon can't have a +4 quality like Brilliant Energy temporarily added to it.
Same thing for spells and general bonuses.
Greater magic weapon is a enhancement bonus, the +1 of the weapon is an enhancement bonus. They overlap.
I can do it.
...
There is no rule that say that having something there first stop you from adding something later. Actually we have some rule that say exactly the opposite, that we can add things later that can overlap the previous bonus.
The problem is that the rules sections you quote don't address the problem of running into a "total bonus cap."
You can certainly cast GMW (+5) on a +2 flaming burst sword and get a +5 flaming burst sword due to overlap of the enhancement bonuses. But you can't cast GMW (+5) on a +2 flaming burst vorpal sword and get a +5 flaming burst vorpal sword because you've exceeded the total bonus cap.
Since there's no rule for suppressing a property on the sword to get a +5 vorpal sword (or a +5 flaming burst sword), we must assume that adding the property (extra enhancement bonus) is not allowed.
(In the case of magic bows and magic arrows, it appears that the bonus from the bow is added to the arrow on firing the arrow, so the bow's bonus is the last applied - meaning it can't be added to a +10 equivalent arrow even if the bow is permanently magic and the arrow is temporarily enhanced.)
Now, you can voluntarily reduce the caster level on a spell to get a +3 flaming burst vorpal sword (though this also reduces duration). A friendly GM might give you the full duration anyway, or let a magus to apply less than the full benefit of their arcane pool. A very friendly GM might let you suppress the powers on your weapon, whether at your choice, randomly, starting with the most expensive property (in this case, vorpal), or some other method. I personally think a choice between applying less bonus than you're entitled or losing the most powerful property on your weapon sounds about right.
But the conclusion most in line with the strict RAW is that the new bonus simply does not stick.
As the goal of the rules isn't to remove class features as you raise in level, I doubt the developers will ever say that.
It doesn't remove class features, it encourages smart use of resources. You can't wear a Headband of Int and a Headband of Wis at the same time. Mage Armour doesn't stack with Bracers of Armour. A Keen Weapon doesn't stack with the Improved Critical feat. Characters who have one of the two gain little or no benefit from the other. Smart play means spending resources on items and abilities that can be used effectively together rather than ones that can't.
Thus a character with the ability to enhance their weapon, whether by Arcane Pool or Divine Bond or Greater Magic Weapon, should not invest so much gold in magic weapons that they do not benefit from these other abilities. Characters with very expensive bows shouldn't buy very expensive arrows, and vice-versa. There are plenty of other things you can spend gold on besides a +10 (or almost +10) weapon.
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I don't think the rules completely cover the situation. When the devs said you can't do it, they kinda expected for you not to try it, but now they may have to make an official ruling. I think a GM will have to make his own rules for it until something official comes out for deciding which properties stay active.
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Personally, id rule that the itemwith the highest enhancement rating is the only one that functions in that case, blocking out the other to prevent a magical overload. If they are equal, the user chooses.
It is not in the rules, but i think the armor rules set a good precedent for handling it that way.
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In PFS it's not an issue. You simply can't do the combo. Your ability to monkey with the rules is limited by the restrictions on what you can obtain. You don't get to craft items, just purchase them, and you're limited to what's allowed. And you're not going to see +1/+9 quality arrows in PFS scenarios... period, any more than you're going to see +10 equivalent bows.We can be capable to go above the +10 limit at level 9, with ease if there is a magus in the group or if someone use a bow. Both the AP that I have completely played gave you a weapon with more than a +5 equivalent bonus for the end of the 5th instalment of the AP so it isn't a unheard of occurrence.That's the definition of an Epic weapon or Artifact. The standard limitations for weapons and armor are for non-epic items.But there is no rule on how you should select what powers work. and no rule that say that you can't use greater magic weapon, keen edge, a magus arcane pool, a inquisitor bane ability or some such on a artefact.
Table variation can be good ina home game, not in PFS.
+1 adaptive holy bow. Magus level 9, speed special ability. =+7 points on the bow
+1 axiomatic arrow. Keen edge, Greater magic weapon at CL 9 = +5 pointsOnly 1 of those 12 points overlap, so we have the equivalent of a +11 weapon.
Very easy to achieve in PFS.
For the Nth time. What ability should be removed?
Repeating "it can be done" don't work.
+1 adaptive holy bow. Magus level 9, speed special ability. =+7 points on the bow
+1 axiomatic arrow. Keen edge, Greater magic weapon at CL 9 = +5 points
Only 1 of those 12 points overlap, so we have the equivalent of a +11 weapon.
Umm... Do the arrows even gain the speed ability?
Other than that, I'd say the rules simply don't cover the situation of Launcher + Ammunition > 10.
I would start with abilities that require activation and say they can't be activated if that would put the item over the limit. Since it's still possible to break the limit with other abilities I'm going to have to think about this some more.
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+1 adaptive holy bow. Magus level 9, speed special ability. =+7 points on the bow
+1 axiomatic arrow. Keen edge, Greater magic weapon at CL 9 = +5 points
Only 1 of those 12 points overlap, so we have the equivalent of a +11 weapon.Umm... Do the arrows even gain the speed ability?
Other than that, I'd say the rules simply don't cover the situation of Launcher + Ammunition > 10.
Good question.
Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon.
and
2 Bows, crossbows, and slings crafted with this ability bestow this power upon their ammunition.
Speed isn't one of the abilities with the 2 superscript.
But if we don't include it in the calculations to reach the +10 limit missile weapons get a nice boos (and bows don't need it).Abilities that will benefit an archer and don't have the 2 superscript:
- speed
- distance
- seeking
As brilliant energy has this text: "This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition." while the other abilities have this kind of text: "Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability." I assume that the distance, speed and seeking abilities can be applied to a bow and give their benefit to an arrow. The seeking ability is a bit questionable as it say "The weapon veers toward its target", but speed and distance should work fine on a bow.
If we don't include them in the calculations to get to the +10 limits a bow users will benefit from up to 4 points of special abilities for free. And speed is mostly useful for a bow, not for a crossbow or any other weapon that require a movement action to load it.
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Missile weapons are the weapons where it is easier to reach the limit and the only ones (AFAIK) where it is possible to have 2 legal permanent magic item and get a combo that go against the limit.
All the other way to surpass the limit require the use of spells or class abilities, so non permanent effects. But we still lack any information on how we should act when some spell or power would surpass the limit.
A magus should never get a weapon with a total from enhancements and special abilities larger than +5 or it will lose the access to one of his core abilities?
A paladin with a +1 keen speed weapon would be unable to cast holy weapon on it?
It seem a way to remove key abilities of some classes.
I would start with abilities that require activation and say they can't be activated if that would put the item over the limit. Since it's still possible to break the limit with other abilities I'm going to have to think about this some more.
So you think that removing access to the signature abilities of some class is the right way to go?
I think it would be better to give to the character using the spell or ability the possibility to chose what ability is temporarily overwritten.
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I say stack 'em all. The only thing that doesn't stack is the arrow/bow enhancement bonus. Those are some expensive ammunition if you ask me. Don't gimp the player who's made such an investment (he literally fires GOLD BARS at enemies... oh I would love to be that guy's DM!! i'd stat up a bunch of homeless guys with the Snatch Arrows feat and they'd literally jump up in front of him trying to grab his million dollar arrows! :) )
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I would say that the Fire/Frost/Shock/Corrosive and any other command word activated portions of the weapon would temporarily have their command words rescinded until the weapon is compliant with the rules, then you may activate them as normal until the weapon reaches a maximum enhancement/ability bonus of +10, the exception of which is Bane and Furious, which the devs have said specifically allow the weapon to pass +10.
If you're dealing with permanent items, then all bonuses accrue.
Yes, you can get a +1/+9 bow firing a +1/+9 arrow, and end up with a +1 weapon with +18 of enhancements. It's totally legal.
If you're casting spells, then you run into the +10 limit on either the bow or the arrow. There's no limit on bows and arrows stacking together, only bows AND arrows stacking.
If you have a +1/+9 weapon, and throw GMW on it, you're going to lose some of the +9's, starting with the most expensive ones that can satisfy the cost.
If you Black blade Magus the thing, you're going to suppress some powers in the favor of other powers.
If you GMW a +1/+5 bow up to +5 enhancement, it has no more limits on a +1/+9 arrow being fired then anything else, they are completely separate effects and tracked that way. You'd get a +5 arrow with +14 of enhancements.
Yes, this is totally legal. Yes, this is incredibly expensive. Yes, it can really surprise the heck out of an enemy.
There's an example of a paladin doing this with a bow against an Epic Dragon in the OGC site. +5 Brilliant Speed Dragonbane something something something arrows Smiting against the Wyrm, bypassing its DR and killing it in one round.
==Aelryinth
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I would start with abilities that require activation and say they can't be activated if that would put the item over the limit. Since it's still possible to break the limit with other abilities I'm going to have to think about this some more.
This is where I was going as well - a lot of the elemental abilities, for example, can be turned on or off. So in those cases you can't turn them on if they would bring you above +10.
This can get even worse with an arcane archer:
+1 bow with +9 worth of abilities
+1 arrows with +9 worth of abilities
+1 with a bunch of yet different abilities from AA.
Purple Dragon Knight has a good point though - a high level archer can easily fire 7 arrows a round. Going through 200,000 gp in 7 rounds of combat is a severe level of expense. (28,000 gp per round).
I would start with abilities that require activation and say they can't be activated if that would put the item over the limit. Since it's still possible to break the limit with other abilities I'm going to have to think about this some more.This is where I was going as well - a lot of the elemental abilities, for example, can be turned on or off. So in those cases you can't turn them on if they would bring you above +10.
Not that it necessarily should change things, but "Burst" type enhancements have their critical hit power function, even when the base ability isn't activated. So a Flaming Burst weapon still applies extra critical hit damage, even if it wasn't actually "Flaming" at the time of the hit.
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3) Since order of addition is the determining factor, an arrow's properties override a bow's (a bow's properties are added to the arrow when the arrow is fired, so they're always the last property applied).
You have a rule that say that?
Dev citation?
It's pretty darn clear from applying the existing rules.
1) You can't remove an ability (currently, unless the devs say you can and how you decide what's removed).
You can not add an ability simply by not activating or applying the ability.
Therefore, you must not add the new ability (most recent - order matters).
2) General rule - an ability applied to an inappropriate target fails.
A weapon that has too many magical enhancements to enhance further is not a valid target for further enhancement (by definition - it has too many enhancements to enhance further so it cannot be enhanced further).
Therefore, once your weapon reaches +10 equivalent, you cannot add any further magic because it is no longer a valid target. Any attempts to add magic after reaching +10 fails - unless the devs decide to add a rule stating otherwise.
I don't think the rules completely cover the situation. When the devs said you can't do it, they kinda expected for you not to try it, but now they may have to make an official ruling. I think a GM will have to make his own rules for it until something official comes out for deciding which properties stay active.
I'm perfectly happy to see the devs add a rule allowing this and saying how it works. But as-is, if they say you can't do it and shouldn't try it, you can't do it and shouldn't try it.
Unless your GM says otherwise. There's a lot of just-fine houserules people are suggesting.
A paladin with a +1 keen speed weapon would be unable to cast holy weapon on it?
Actually, Holy Sword specifically suppresses any and all other magical properties of the weapon - it's the one case I know of where currently present abilities can be suppressed. So the paladin can holy sword his +1 keen speed weapon, turning it temporarily into a +5 holy weapon that can't be further enhanced by Divine Bond.
So how about on/off abilities you can choose no matter the source. You just can't exceed the +10 limit.
I don't have an answer for abilities that are always on.
I would start with abilities that require activation and say they can't be activated if that would put the item over the limit. Since it's still possible to break the limit with other abilities I'm going to have to think about this some more.This is where I was going as well - a lot of the elemental abilities, for example, can be turned on or off. So in those cases you can't turn them on if they would bring you above +10.
This can get even worse with an arcane archer:
+1 bow with +9 worth of abilities
+1 arrows with +9 worth of abilities
+1 with a bunch of yet different abilities from AA.Purple Dragon Knight has a good point though - a high level archer can easily fire 7 arrows a round. Going through 200,000 gp in 7 rounds of combat is a severe level of expense. (28,000 gp per round).
I WILL GIVE YOU 28000 GOLD TO GO AWAY!
doesn't elves of golarion have a durable arrow that doesn't break? it's splat, sure, but still.
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I would say that the Fire/Frost/Shock/Corrosive and any other command word activated portions of the weapon would temporarily have their command words rescinded until the weapon is compliant with the rules, then you may activate them as normal until the weapon reaches a maximum enhancement/ability bonus of +10, the exception of which is Bane and Furious, which the devs have said specifically allow the weapon to pass +10.
they can bypass the +5 enhancement limit, not the +10 total limit.
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For the Nth time. What ability should be removed?Repeating "it can be done" don't work.
So quoting RAW doesn't work. How is that.
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) . A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.If my magus has a +7 weapon and he wants to add brilliant energy {a +4 ability}, he can't by RAW. If we have a 12 ounce cup there is no way we can pour 20 ounces of fluid into it.
Now from there If it is a +7 arrow and a +7 bow, the arrows bonuses are kept as the bows bonuses are added to it (up to the +10 max). So only a total of +3 abilities can be gained from the bow.
Now which bonuses is not covered by RAW. I house rule players choice. I think of it as if the bow is casting on the arrow.
LOL, so you are saying exactly what I am saying, we need a rule on how we should be around removing abilities to keep within the +10 limit.
The only problem with your solution is that there is no rule support for it.No rule about removing abilities, no rule about power precedence. Exactly what this thread is trying to get.
And yes, repeating "it can't be done" don't work if we don't have a rule on how we should remove abilities to stay within the +10 limit.
The +7 bow and +7 arrow combo implode in a rule black hole if we notch the arrow in the bow?
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from PRD, the arrows that hit are always gone:
Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.
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If you're dealing with permanent items, then all bonuses accrue.
Yes, you can get a +1/+9 bow firing a +1/+9 arrow, and end up with a +1 weapon with +18 of enhancements. It's totally legal.
If you're casting spells, then you run into the +10 limit on either the bow or the arrow. There's no limit on bows and arrows stacking together, only bows AND arrows stacking.
If you have a +1/+9 weapon, and throw GMW on it, you're going to lose some of the +9's, starting with the most expensive ones that can satisfy the cost.
If you Black blade Magus the thing, you're going to suppress some powers in the favor of other powers.
If you GMW a +1/+5 bow up to +5 enhancement, it has no more limits on a +1/+9 arrow being fired then anything else, they are completely separate effects and tracked that way. You'd get a +5 arrow with +14 of enhancements.
Yes, this is totally legal. Yes, this is incredibly expensive. Yes, it can really surprise the heck out of an enemy.
There's an example of a paladin doing this with a bow against an Epic Dragon in the OGC site. +5 Brilliant Speed Dragonbane something something something arrows Smiting against the Wyrm, bypassing its DR and killing it in one round.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, the limit include spells and special abilities, so you can't use greater magic weapon on a bow with a +1 enhancement and 9 points of special abilities.
The last thing a archer need is to be the only guy that can get a +19 weapon combo.
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@ Purple Dragon Knight
We have all the spells needed to get +6 arrows at a very low cost, they are called.
Greater magic weapons
and
Keen edge
Thee are a few other spells that add abilities to ammunitions, so no one is firing "gold bars" at enemies. They are firing normal arrows enhanced with a few spells.
I would start with abilities that require activation and say they can't be activated if that would put the item over the limit. Since it's still possible to break the limit with other abilities I'm going to have to think about this some more.This is where I was going as well - a lot of the elemental abilities, for example, can be turned on or off. So in those cases you can't turn them on if they would bring you above +10.
This can get even worse with an arcane archer:
+1 bow with +9 worth of abilities
+1 arrows with +9 worth of abilities
+1 with a bunch of yet different abilities from AA.Purple Dragon Knight has a good point though - a high level archer can easily fire 7 arrows a round. Going through 200,000 gp in 7 rounds of combat is a severe level of expense. (28,000 gp per round).
Add abundant ammunition to the mix and your archer will have a unlimited supply of arrows with a cheap wand.
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Add abundant ammunition to the mix and your archer will have a unlimited supply of arrows with a cheap wand.
Abundant aummunition won't work on arrows that are already magical. You can cast it then buff up the arrows with temporary effects, but that's a little bit less customizable than the full range of possible +10 arrows.
But you're right, there is still a problem with a guy with his +1/+9 bow firing even temporarily enhanced arrows. I was referring to some posts upthread where people were talking about arrows that were permanently enhanced.
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@ Purple Dragon Knight
We have all the spells needed to get +6 arrows at a very low cost, they are called.
Greater magic weapons
and
Keen edgeThee are a few other spells that add abilities to ammunitions, so no one is firing "gold bars" at enemies. They are firing normal arrows enhanced with a few spells.
Ok... that's better then.
However, how many rounds does it take to buff to where you want to be? (or is there some kind of magic quiver that poops those out automatically? i'm looking at you, Cattie Brie! :P )
GMW lasts hour/level
Keen Edge lasts 10 min/level
So it's very likely that these could be prebuffed, esp with an extended rod.
Personally I would rule that Keen Edge does not count towards the +10 of a weapon. It does not grant the Keen property (in fact it explicitly says it doesn't stack with it, making it different effects). If someone had improved critical you would not count that as a magical enhancement I presume.
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@ Purple Dragon Knight
We have all the spells needed to get +6 arrows at a very low cost, they are called.
Greater magic weapons
and
Keen edgeThee are a few other spells that add abilities to ammunitions, so no one is firing "gold bars" at enemies. They are firing normal arrows enhanced with a few spells.
Ok... that's better then.
However, how many rounds does it take to buff to where you want to be? (or is there some kind of magic quiver that poops those out automatically? i'm looking at you, Cattie Brie! :P )
bundant Ammunition
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 1, cleric 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a single piece of ammunition)
Target one container touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.
1 minute level, so you can pre cast it and have it last long enough if you are casting the spell by hand. And then the different arrow enhancing spells.
As it is a 1st level spell it can be easily extended with a relatively cheap rod.Keen edge last 10 minutes level, greater magic weapon 1 hour level, so in the right conditions you can easily pre buff and have the arrows ready.
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LOL, so you are saying exactly what I am saying, we need a rule on how we should be around removing abilities to keep within the +10 limit.If my magus has a +7 weapon and he wants to add brilliant energy {a +4 ability}, he can't by RAW. If we have a 12 ounce cup there is no way we can pour 20 ounces of fluid into it.
Now from there If it is a +7 arrow and a +7 bow, the arrows bonuses are kept as the bows bonuses are added to it (up to the +10 max). So only a total of +3 abilities can be gained from the bow.
Now which bonuses is not covered by RAW. I house rule players choice. I think of it as if the bow is casting on the arrow.
Not quite, he's saying there should be a rule for how to choose which abilities are added on. He clearly states that the bonuses on the arrow are kept, not removed.
The only problem with your solution is that there is no rule support for it.
Which is why he specifically states that it is a house rule.
No rule about removing abilities, no rule about power precedence. Exactly what this thread is trying to get.
And yes, repeating "it can't be done" don't work if we don't have a rule on how we should remove abilities to stay within the +10 limit.
If we don't have a rule, it can't be done, at least not without house rules. If we had a rule saying how to remove abilities from an arrow or other weapon when a new effect enhances it, then it could be done.
By analogy: dragging someone around the battlefield could not be done by RAW using only the CRB (though some groups may have house-ruled it based on the existing maneuver system). Now that the Drag maneuver has been published, we have a rule saying how, so it now can be done by RAW.
If you think that it should be able to be done and that thus we need rules regarding how it should be done, that is a different issue.
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LOL, so you are saying exactly what I am saying, we need a rule on how we should be around removing abilities to keep within the +10 limit.If my magus has a +7 weapon and he wants to add brilliant energy {a +4 ability}, he can't by RAW. If we have a 12 ounce cup there is no way we can pour 20 ounces of fluid into it.
Now from there If it is a +7 arrow and a +7 bow, the arrows bonuses are kept as the bows bonuses are added to it (up to the +10 max). So only a total of +3 abilities can be gained from the bow.
Now which bonuses is not covered by RAW. I house rule players choice. I think of it as if the bow is casting on the arrow.
Not quite, he's saying there should be a rule for how to choose which abilities are added on. He clearly states that the bonuses on the arrow are kept, not removed.
The only problem with your solution is that there is no rule support for it.Which is why he specifically states that it is a house rule.
No rule about removing abilities, no rule about power precedence. Exactly what this thread is trying to get.
And yes, repeating "it can't be done" don't work if we don't have a rule on how we should remove abilities to stay within the +10 limit.
If we don't have a rule, it can't be done, at least not without house rules. If we had a rule saying how to remove abilities from an arrow or other weapon when a new effect enhances it, then it could be done.
By analogy: dragging someone around the battlefield could not be done by RAW using only the CRB (though some groups may have house-ruled it based on the existing maneuver system). Now that the Drag maneuver has been published, we have a rule saying how, so it now can be done by RAW.
If you think that it should be able to be done and that thus we need rules regarding how it should be done, that is a...
Weirdo, He state this as a fact, and you have even emphasized it:
"Now from there If it is a +7 arrow and a +7 bow, the arrows bonuses are kept as the bows bonuses are added to it (up to the +10 max). So only a total of +3 abilities can be gained from the bow. Emphasis mine"Instead that is a house rule too, like the second part you enphasized:
"Now which bonuses is not covered by RAW. I house rule players choice. I think of it as if the bow is casting on the arrow.
Emphasis mine"
So "It can't be done", again and again. But what happen? I see houserules peddled as actual rules, but no one really know.
The arrow lose its magic? The bow? All of it or only some of it?
You are stopped from putting arrow near the string of the bow by some magical repulsion?
Choosing a order in which the enhancements are added can be a valid solution, but it is an houserule.
Diego, I'm perfectly aware that GMW can't send a weapon over the +10 limit. Neither can any class ability, like the Paladin's soul bonded sword or a Magus' Black Blade or an Arcane Archer.
That says nothing for a +1/+9 Bow and +1/+9 Arrows, which all stack into a +1/+18 arrow of death coming your way. Those are two permanent effects, not spells, and they stack because the limit is on a single weapon, not on two weapons, one giving bonuses to the other.
==Aelryinth
I see the reason you can't craft items above +10, because it takes a level of power which isn't really within mortal reach. But a single item can hold power exceeding +10, illustrated in mythic items. I'd allow them to stack above +10