| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hello,
One of my major dnd bugbears and issues I have with it is how the way it handles polytheism. Mostly in how it feels nothing like actual polytheism. By this I mean the polytheism that one might see in ancient Greece/Rome/Egypt. which also means, less of a focus on 'holy war' and 'heresies'.
I am curious how much I might have to change as I want to have this sort of polytheism be the main religious way I like the various gods, but I want to have more of a focus on polytheism. Where in a major city, you can find temples to many deities including some minor ones and visiting them for your various needs is just part of every day life.
One of the things that thus comes out of this, is the wondering if they have ever written up what sort of offerings are given to the deities? One of the things that is done in polytheistic religions, weather it be Kemeticism, Hellenismos, Shintoism and so on are offerings to the deities. Not the cliche fantasy human virgin offerings, but food, drinks, items and so on. So I am curious if this have ever been written up.
sincerely,
-Vyshan
Basically every cult behaves like a monotheistic religion, specifically like an abrahamitic religion. They all have salvation schemes, moral codes, holy texts and exclusive club memberships (as in you are supposed to have one patron god). It's like a hundred little Christianities.
Also note that there are no deities associated with specific cities or locales at all. The gods are just antrophomorphized abstracts and you are supposed to choose between e.g. community and beauty. Like you, I would have very much preferred for a world with many, many, actual, provable gods to be much more like actual polytheistic cultures were.
|
I hear that the "Gods of the Inner Sea" will be coming out soon for some more info on the deities and how they interact.
Also, the religion should be different in Golarion than IRL, since you can actually Prove gods exist via Plane Shift, or pointing out that 3 people have "passed" the starstone test. So a lot of things are simplified by not having people challenge the belief of gods so much.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hello,
One of my major dnd bugbears and issues I have with it is how the way it handles polytheism. Mostly in how it feels nothing like actual polytheism. By this I mean the polytheism that one might see in ancient Greece/Rome/Egypt. which also means, less of a focus on 'holy war' and 'heresies'.
Uh...speaking as a polytheist, I think most places in Golarion do a very good job of representing precisely this. Clerics are focused on a specific God, but a lot of people worship and/or pray occasionally to several. People who are devoted to one aren't uncommon, but are hardly universal either.
Holy war is also really a pretty occasional thing specifically targeted against really oppositional religions (ie: Desna and Lamashtu, Pharasma and Urgathoa, Sarenrae and Rovagug, etc.), or a result of the worshipers doing it wrong (the second basically only in Qadira). And heresy, while a term used occasionally, has very little impact in most religions (Evil religions tend to have less tolerance for that sort of thing, admittedly).
I am curious how much I might have to change as I want to have this sort of polytheism be the main religious way I like the various gods, but I want to have more of a focus on polytheism. Where in a major city, you can find temples to many deities including some minor ones and visiting them for your various needs is just part of every day life.
This is exactly how polytheism is presented in just about every city book published. Or at least that's a valid interpretation of the presentation.
One of the things that thus comes out of this, is the wondering if they have ever written up what sort of offerings are given to the deities? One of the things that is done in polytheistic religions, weather it be Kemeticism, Hellenismos, Shintoism and so on are offerings to the deities. Not the cliche fantasy human virgin offerings, but food, drinks, items and so on. So I am curious if this have ever been written up.
sincerely,
-Vyshan
Sacrifices to the gods are actually mentioned pretty commonly in books talking about them in-depth. They don't tend to specify details of what's sacrificed a lot, simply because doing so takes up word count, but making offerings is definitely mentioned as a commonplace thing.
Paizo has actually published a book that goes into a little detail about pantheism and has a couple of traits & feats to go along mechanically for a PC that might be a pantheist. It is Faiths & Philosophies. In the Pantheism portion it does say that most people on Golarion are at least a little bit pantheist as they will offer prayers to deities other than their patron.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Oracle is a polytheist. At least in that they worship various gods that fit their ethos.
-MD
Wasn't there a pantheistic cathedral in Sandpoint?
|
|
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Oracle is a polytheist. At least in that they worship various gods that fit their ethos.
-MD
You're sorta right, but not really. An Oracle can be a polytheist, or a monotheist, or an atheist. Faith is simply not the source of their powers.
Now, since Clerics must be monotheistic in Golarion, Oracles are your go-to class for a polytheistic Divine spell caster, but it's not hard-wired in.
Wasn't there a pantheistic cathedral in Sandpoint?
Yes. Though the current Cleric there is Desnan.
I like the depiction of religon in Sarkoris, it seems pretty realistic when compared to old norse/germanic mixing of beliefs and the flexibility that the village 8 km has a totally different pantheon. (or at the very least the god thats most important is different)
Snipped info
Thanks for the information, so it seems like there is not as much I would have to change.
BTW I am also a follower of a polytheistic religion, Hellenismos. :)
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Oracle is a polytheist. At least in that they worship various gods that fit their ethos.
-MD
You're sorta right, but not really. An Oracle can be a polytheist, or a monotheist, or an atheist. Faith is simply not the source of their powers.
Now, since Clerics must be monotheistic in Golarion, Oracles are your go-to class for a polytheistic Divine spell caster, but it's not hard-wired in.
Wasn't there a pantheistic cathedral in Sandpoint?Yes. Though the current Cleric there is Desnan.
That is one thing I sort of dislike. Clerics in DnD/pathfinder are seem to be about 'converting' people to the worship of your god, when that is n't what they would do. Priests of say in ancient greece did not go around saying "don't worship Appollo worship Artemis instead"
Of course this is easier to change, as I am not using pathfinder system; I am using FATE instead.
It's GOLARION, not Golorian, Galorion or G-string. /canonnazi
Glogarlion!
|
|
Thanks for the information, so it seems like there is not as much I would have to change.
You're very welcome, and yeah, it's pretty solid.
BTW I am also a follower of a polytheistic religion, Hellenismos. :)
Cool. :)
That is one thing I sort of dislike. Clerics in DnD/pathfinder are seem to be about 'converting' people to the worship of your god, when that is n't what they would do. Priests of say in ancient greece did not go around saying "don't worship Appollo worship Artemis instead"
That doesn't seem at all universal. The aforementioned Desnan doesn't do anything of the kind, for example. I mean, some Clerics seem to, but it's hardly universal. Heck, I'm not sure it's even standard (well, beyond Good followers of Good deities trying to convert the followers of Evil gods, which is sorta mandatory given the nature of objective Good and Evil, and doesn't occur with real-world polytheistic religions because few have objectively Evil deities who are actually worshiped).
Of course this is easier to change, as I am not using pathfinder system; I am using FATE instead.
It's actually not that hard even in Pathfinder, there's nothing mechanically restricting Clerics from having multiple deities, it's all thematic.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now, since Clerics must be monotheistic in Golarion, Oracles are your go-to class for a polytheistic Divine spell caster, but it's not hard-wired in.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does.
Ancient Greece was a polytheistic society; it's in fact, what many people first think of when they are asked to name such a society. That doesn't mean that there weren't priests of specific gods. Lacoon, son of Acoetes, for example, was a priest of Poseidon; the Pythoness was a priestess of Apollo.
Similarly, most Hindu temples are devoted to a specific god, but that doesn't mean that they deny the existence of others. It's just that if you want to light incense to Brahma,... well, that's down the road.
Basically, being a priest of your specific (patron) god is a job, but that doesn't mean that you don't recognize and respect other deities. It just means that your job is to do the rites for this particular one.
In a similar fashion, Jeeves is the manservant to Bertie Wooster, but that doesn't mean that Jeeves doesn't recognize the existence of Bingo Little, Gussie Fink-Nottle, or Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright, Beefy Bingham, Tuppy Glossop, or the rest of the Drones Club. One would hardly call him a believer in monoDronism.
The technical term for this, by the way, is "henotheism," which means roughly "one god at a time."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That is one thing I sort of dislike. Clerics in DnD/pathfinder are seem to be about 'converting' people to the worship of your god, when that is n't what they would do. Priests of say in ancient greece did not go around saying "don't worship Appollo worship Artemis instead"
I'm not sure where you get this, either about D&D/PF or about ancient Greece. There was tremendous competition in ancient Greece to get stuff -- sacrifices, pledges of land, et cetera -- for your god as opposed to any other. The story of the founding of Athens (and why Athena is the patron goddess instead of Poseidon) is one example. At a more mundane level, if King Sometimes (pronounced Soh-MEH-tih-meez) decided to build a new temple to Apollo to thank him for the healthy birth of his son, instead of to Artemis, that means that the priest of Apollo will get spiffy new apartments and better food,.... so of course the Apollonian priest will be angling for that new building.
... and so will the Artemesian priestess.
That doesn't mean that either of them disbelieves in the other deity.
In D&D it's a little different because there are gods and goddesses that are actively dangerous to society, and it's perfectly legitimate to want to, for example, stamp out worship of Norgorber. "Don't worship Norgorber because he kills people" is a little more compelling an argument than "don't worship Artemis because I want a bigger temple," but it's still an argument about where to focus worship, not about belief.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The class isn't really built to support multiple patrons.
It's actually not that hard even in Pathfinder, there's nothing mechanically restricting Clerics from having multiple deities, it's all thematic.
Don't confuse multiple patron deities with belief in multiple deities. A priest of Vishnu will typically believe in all of Trimurti (Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva) and even actively worship them as appropriate, but only serve as a priest in a temple of Vishnu.
The laws of the various US states aren't really build to support multiple citizenships. That doesn't mean that a citizen of California doesn't recognize the existence of Texas and won't respect Texas laws when he vacations in San Antonio.
The Greek and Roman gods did in fact have priest dedicated to their worship that would vye for popularity, wealth, and power. Fun fact, Julius Caeser originally was training for priesthood under Jupiter.
The class isn't really built to support multiple patrons.
It's actually not that hard even in Pathfinder, there's nothing mechanically restricting Clerics from having multiple deities, it's all thematic.Don't confuse multiple patron deities with belief in multiple deities. A priest of Vishnu will typically believe in all of Trimurti (Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva) and even actively worship them as appropriate, but only serve as a priest in a temple of Vishnu.
The laws of the various US states aren't really build to support multiple citizenships. That doesn't mean that a citizen of California doesn't recognize the existence of Texas and won't respect Texas laws when he vacations in San Antonio.
I think he was talking mechanically.
Now, since Clerics must be monotheistic in Golarion, Oracles are your go-to class for a polytheistic Divine spell caster, but it's not hard-wired in.You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does.
Ancient Greece was a polytheistic society; it's in fact, what many people first think of when they are asked to name such a society. That doesn't mean that there weren't priests of specific gods. Lacoon, son of Acoetes, for example, was a priest of Poseidon; the Pythoness was a priestess of Apollo.
Basically, being a priest of your specific (patron) god is a job, but that doesn't mean that you don't recognize and respect other deities. It just means that your job is to do the rites for this particular one.
In a similar fashion, Jeeves is the manservant to Bertie Wooster, but that doesn't mean that Jeeves doesn't recognize the existence of Bingo Little, Gussie Fink-Nottle, or Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright, Beefy Bingham, Tuppy Glossop, or the rest of the Drones Club. One would hardly call him a believer in monoDronism.
Bingo! that is what I am looking at when it comes to clerics.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bingo! that is what I am looking at when it comes to clerics.
And as far as I can tell, that's also exactly what you have in Pathfinder.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does.
Ancient Greece was a polytheistic society; it's in fact, what many people first think of when they are asked to name such a society. That doesn't mean that there weren't priests of specific gods. Lacoon, son of Acoetes, for example, was a priest of Poseidon; the Pythoness was a priestess of Apollo.
Similarly, most Hindu temples are devoted to a specific god, but that doesn't mean that they deny the existence of others. It's just that if you want to light incense to Brahma,... well, that's down the road.
Basically, being a priest of your specific (patron) god is a job, but that doesn't mean that you don't recognize and respect other deities. It just means that your job is to do the rites for this particular one.
In a similar fashion, Jeeves is the manservant to Bertie Wooster, but that doesn't mean that Jeeves doesn't recognize the existence of Bingo Little, Gussie Fink-Nottle, or Catsmeat Potter-Pirbright, Beefy Bingham, Tuppy Glossop, or the rest of the Drones Club. One would hardly call him a believer in monoDronism.
The technical term for this, by the way, is "henotheism," which means roughly "one god at a time."
Bleh. I'm tired and was imprecise, I thought it was clear from context what I meant, and I didn't remember 'henotheism' and wasn't feeling like looking it up. My bad, but I would like to make it clear that you're correcting an imprecise use of language not a misunderstanding on my part. I literally knew all of that except the word prior to you posting it.
And as far as I can tell, that's also exactly what you have in Pathfinder.
Bingo! that is what I am looking at when it comes to clerics.
This is true.
Nine times out of ten however when someone is asking for polytheism, it's most likely to get two gravy domains he can't get any other way, in a setting or campaign where concept clerics aren't allowed.The class isn't really built to support multiple patrons.
It's actually not that hard even in Pathfinder, there's nothing mechanically restricting Clerics from having multiple deities, it's all thematic.Don't confuse multiple patron deities with belief in multiple deities. A priest of Vishnu will typically believe in all of Trimurti (Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva) and even actively worship them as appropriate, but only serve as a priest in a temple of Vishnu.
The laws of the various US states aren't really build to support multiple citizenships. That doesn't mean that a citizen of California doesn't recognize the existence of Texas and won't respect Texas laws when he vacations in San Antonio.
I'd have to double-check to get the dates right, but there are some late Roman altars dedicated to the Magna Mater listing several priesthoods that each of various dedicants held, and I think there's some classical evidence for trading in priesthoods, so it's not hard to imagine multiple patron deities.
In my home group's campaigns, we normally have a house-rule that clerics associated with a particular pantheon can pick their domains from all of those offered by the deities they especially honour. Is that part of what the OP was aiming for? That's easy when we talk about things like an elven pantheon, say, but for settings like Golarion in which different species' religious differences aren't stressed, it might be convenient to define for one's campaign what might count as the local pantheon in a given city or region. As far as balance goes, no one in my group has really played a cleric to even mid-levels, or chosen an egregious combination of domains, but I'm sure that more experienced players could point out ways our house-rule could be abused.
Nine times out of ten however when someone is asking for polytheism, it's most likely to get two gravy domains he can't get any other way, in a setting or campaign where concept clerics aren't allowed.
Can you give an example of gravy domains in general and combos that are not normally allowed? I thought most everything could be found somewhere from the hundreds of domain granting beings in Golarion.
Anybody know of a comprehensive listing of domains that list all the beings granting those domains?
Yes, I should have stressed just how late the phenomenon was, and peculiar. I'm thinking of the fourth century C.E., and it's been suggested that by then the last aristocratic pagans were doubling up partly for prestige and partly because there was no one around to perform the rites. So we end up with a dedication in the name of Ulpius Egnatius Faventinus in 376: public augur of the people of Rome, "Father" of the Invincible Sun Mithras, Archibucolus [~Arch-shepherd?] of Liber, Hierophant of Hecate, and priest of Isis...
On the other hand, since this was the old guard piquing itself on tradition, I'm not sure just exactly how weird it would have looked earlier, though it certainly would have been strange. Apuleius is the famous collector of priesthoods, but I'll have to revisit the evidence for republican Rome and Greece before the hellenistic period. Certainly in the real fourth/fifth century (B.C.E., of course! ;)), an Athenian could refer simply to "the Goddess" and it was probably a safe bet which one they meant, and that's not even talking about a priest whose business is taking care of a particular deity. I'd have to double-check how priesthoods changed hands around then and in other parts of Greece.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dwarves are a polytheistic society...while most dwarves see Torag as their patron, they still whisper small prayers and make modest sacrifices to other gods when the need arises. Clerics are known to reorient their focus to a different deity when necessary
There are no explicit mechanics for this.
|
I skimmed the thread (so please excuse me if I missed it), but I don't think anyone mentioned this, but clerics DO NOT need to be tied to a specific god.
"While the vast majority of clerics revere a specific deity, a small number dedicate themselves to a divine concept worthy of devotion—such as battle, death, justice, or knowledge—free of a deific abstraction."
This would allow you to have Pantheistic Clerics. So maybe you have a Cultural or Racial Pantheon from Faiths & Philosophies, and the pantheon has some clerics dedicated to specific gods and other clerics dedicated to the pantheon.
This would also let you combine any two domains if you could adequately justify your choices to your GM.
That is for Pathfinder RPG. In Golarion, it has been stated many times by the developers, a cleric must worship a particular deity, and your patron deity must be within one step of your alignment.
and that is part of why I do not like it. Clerics should worship the other deities; They focus on making sure that the rites and lore about their particular deity is known. But that does not mean they do not worship the other gods.
Of course mechanics are not an issue since I am using the FATE system.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That is for Pathfinder RPG. In Golarion, it has been stated many times by the developers, a cleric must worship a particular deity, and your patron deity must be within one step of your alignment.and that is part of why I do not like it. Clerics should worship the other deities;
You're misreading it. It says that clerics must worship a deity (as opposed to "a divine concept worthy of devotion"). It says nothing about only worshiping one deity, to the exclusion of all else.
Although a cleric of Erastil would be extremely unlikely to worship Lamashtu or Rovagog, as these deities oppose everything Erastil (and his cleric) hold dear, nothing keeps such a cleric from participating in ceremonies of Shelyn.
|
|
We have some semantic issues happening here. Nothing in the PFRPG or Golarion, stops you from worshipping multiple deities. You may have only one Patron Deity for the purposes of game mechanics. In Golarion, Clerics have one and only one patron deity, though they may worship other deities.
Worship has many meanings and it is important to understand which meaning is being used in a give instance.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As I was pointing with Sandpoint, the cleric there is performing the rites for the regional pantheon even if his deity is Desna.
Hmm... Maybe they should make a Cleric Archetype called the Pantheist? You can choose three Domains (max two from one deity, most likely one from three deities), but cannot access their higher Domain power or use the Domain spells. You must also still be within one step of alignment of the deities in question. If you choose the max of three deities, you still only have proficiency in only two of their respective weapons
Oh! A Cleric of Cayden Cailean, Desna and Shelyn! *Dances a little Happy Dance*
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm... Maybe they should make a Cleric Archetype called the Pantheist?
They absolutely should not, because a pantheist doesn't believe in any personal, anthropomorphic god. They could make a Polytheist archetype who worships multiple deities within a pantheon.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I recently generated a cleric who offers prayers to nearly every god she is aware of, even those with opposed portfolios and alignments. She has a patron deity to whom she is dedicated and who receives the lion's share of her prayers and service -- but she definitely believes in giving all deities their due.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of my pet peeves with most fantasy realms is how there's so often little to no regional variability within the clerics of a single religion which seems strange and (from my very limited background in the subject, and noting the difficulties of mapping real-world experiences to the game world, and all the usual "realism/verisimilitude" boilerplate) ahistorical to me. That being said, in a world of magical communications you might very well see the homogenization of culture that this sort of thing represents, but it seems like only churches are monocultured like this, not other spheres of culture.
Actually, several deities in Golarion have such variations, and how people have worshiped them has changed extensively over time. Pharasma is a case in point with some really weird sect variations in Ustalav (Pharasmin Penitents, I'm looking at you), and having been worshiped almost exclusively as the Goddess of Prophecy in Azlant. There are a number of other such regional or timeline variations, too...though not as many as in the real world due to the gods having provably objective reality and magic enabling travel and communication as you suggest.
Hehehehe Reminds me of the look on everyone's face in a Forgotten realms game when my CG half-elf dropped off a few gold at an alter to Umberlee before a long ocean voyage :P
THAT was fun ;)
One of my pet peeves with most fantasy realms is how there's so often little to no regional variability within the clerics of a single religion which seems strange and (from my very limited background in the subject, and noting the difficulties of mapping real-world experiences to the game world, and all the usual "realism/verisimilitude" boilerplate) ahistorical to me. That being said, in a world of magical communications you might very well see the homogenization of culture that this sort of thing represents, but it seems like only churches are monocultured like this, not other spheres of culture.
I don't see that as so much a church specific thing but a general D&D class type thing. Most wizards either studied under a master or went to a wizards' college with some exceptional individuals with different stories but not general cultural differences between disparate nations. Same for bards, rogues, fighters, monks, druids, paladins, rangers, etc.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The class isn't really built to support multiple patrons. Domain choices and related mechanics are really tied to a one per customer sort of deal, presumably to keep players from dipping two powerful domains.
Eberron did pretty well with pantheon worshiping clerics.
Also, the Order of the Godsclaw is a perfect Golarion example of worshiping multiple gods at one time, complete with their own selection of domains.
Sadly, that was ret-conned from existence.
Creative Director
|
You can absolutey have a cleric who respects and admires and even offers prayers to multiple deities. Abstalar Zantus runs a pantheistic temple in Sandpoint, and is a prime example of this. But at the same time, he's primarailly a cleric of Desna, over and above any other faith. He respects and reveres Shelyn and Gozreh and Sarenrae and Abadar and Erastil, and Desna doens't mind and even approves of his prayers and faith in those deities... but his primary focus for his faith remains Desna.
If deities were authors, you can like multiple writers but if you're a cleric, you have to have a clear favorite author. If you're an oracle (or more or less ANY other class, divine spellcaster or not), you don't. You can if you want, but it's not required.
One of the ways that the cleric is defined as being a separate thing than every other class in Golarion is the fact that she DOES have a "favorite."
I still disagree with you about making it that way, but, you know, your show and all, and I'm glad you like it! :D
(Also, I will continue telling people how it rolls in Golarion!)
Sadly, that was ret-conned from existence.
Sad. I really liked that about them.
But my primary point was that Cleric, the class, works fine for representing pantheon worship (even if it isn't allowed in Golarion).