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| 33 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a Maneuver Master in pfs who recently was informed by my local VC and at least one other GM that I could not use flurry of maneuvers in armor or with a shield-this was after providing the vc with ultimate combat and the entry for the ability. I am required to have proof before using my class features now and playing the character again (who I have invested some time into).
FoM replaces FoB. The armor proficiency segment of the monk states that you cannot use fob, get the monk ac bonus, apply wisdom mod to ac or benefit from the fast movement bonus while wearing armor or using a shield. A character using either or both would lose all of those benefits. But if they replace fob with fom there is nothing in any FAQ or listed errata stating that you lose access to fom while wearing armor or using a shield.
I've been over the forums in search of answers, but there have been no official rulings posted from what I can see. Hit the FAQ button please to help get this resolved as quickly and officially as possible. I would really like to resume playing my character.
I will try and consolidate issues found over the forums.
The basic questions are:
1.)Is FoM treated as FoB or is it a separate ability entirely?
2.)What restrictions are there for FoM?
3.)Which maneuvers can or cannot be performed as part of a FoM?
4.)When using FoM are non-bonus maneuvers penalized (ie. Maneuvers performed at the normal Bab during the flurry)?
5.)At levels 1, 8 and 15 additional maneuver attacks are available. How do these penalties apply? (Ie. At level 15 does the final maneuver suffer a -12, all three bonus maneuvers suffer a -12, or all maneuvers done that round-bonus or not, suffer a -12).
Those are all that immediately come to mind.
I have a Maneuver Master in pfs who recently was informed by my local VC and at least one other GM that I could not use flurry of maneuvers in armor or with a shield-this was after providing the vc with ultimate combat and the entry for the ability. I am required to have proof before using my class features now and playing the character again (who I have invested some time into).
FoM replaces FoB. The armor proficiency segment of the monk states that you cannot use fob, get the monk ac bonus, apply wisdom mod to ac or benefit from the fast movement bonus while wearing armor or using a shield. A character using either or both would lose all of those benefits. But if they replace fob with fom there is nothing in any FAQ or listed errata stating that you lose access to fom while wearing armor or using a shield.
I've been over the forums in search of answers, but there have been no official rulings posted from what I can see. Hit the FAQ button please to help get this resolved as quickly and officially as possible. I would really like to resume playing my character.
I will try and consolidate issues found over the forums.
The basic questions are:1.)Is FoM treated as FoB or is it a separate ability entirely?
2.)What restrictions are there for FoM?
3.)Which maneuvers can or cannot be performed as part of a FoM?4.)When using FoM are non-bonus maneuvers penalized (ie. Maneuvers performed at the normal Bab during the flurry)?
5.)At levels 1, 8 and 15 additional maneuver attacks are available. How do these penalties apply? (Ie. At level 15 does the final maneuver suffer a -12, all three bonus maneuvers suffer a -12, or all maneuvers done that round-bonus or not, suffer a -12).
Those are all that immediately come to mind.
1. Not sure.
2. Not sure.3. All maneuvers can be performed even if normally standard actions like Dirty Trick.
4. All maneuvers are penalized, attacks aren't.
So if you Flurry doing one maneuver and one attack, only the maneuvers are at -2, at is -0. Both are at Monk Level not Bab though.
So at level 1, your attack with Str 10 is -1 Maneuver, +0 Unarmed strike (includes Monk level for BAB, and -2 maneuver penalty).
5. All Bonus is at -2, but 2nd bonus at (-2 + -3=) -5, 3rd bonus (-2 + -7=) -9 (not -12).
The way Archetypes replace abilities by this point should be fairly understood. They follow some specific patterns
1) They modify the origonal ability, in a way that would make it different and usually have a line like "This ability otherwise acts like X" When this happens it tells you All the feats for X still work and any stuff not mentioned in the Archetype ability still applies.
An example of this would be alot of similar animal companion abilities they often have different names and mechanics but at the end you have a fuzzy friend that follows the Ac formula for stats.
2) Item is replaced by an ability of similar power but is in no way like the first ability.
3)There are a few cases where an ability appears to fit the pattrn for example 1) but then fails to mention "this ability is otherwise like x" this usually is deliberate i think when dealing with stacking issues.
Example Beast Rider cavaliers Exotic mount ability replaces mount, but appears to be its own ability with no stacking. (i assume this is to prevent anyone with another AC taking 1 level of the class to get the full benefit of the exotic mount but im guessing)
Theres probly a few other patterns but for the purpose of flurry of maneuvers The above is sufficient. First, Remember PF is a permission based system you can do things or cant do things because the game says so.
Flurry of maneuvers is not Flurry of blows, has never been and does not work with any ability that works modifies or influences flurry of blows. IT has no language in the Text to suggest it has any of flurry of blows drawbacks.
In short for them to deny it they need text saying you cant do it. Flurry of Maneuvers isnt even ambiguous about this it has no mention of anything to do with Flurry of blows or armor.
Ergo Its their responsibility to show it denies you the ability to use it in armor which does not exist.
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@starbuck & Galahad
I am not so sure about 'any' maneuver being available. Overrun, for instance, while difficult to perform, creates all sorts of issues when performing a full attack action. Further, overrun is a standard action but requires you to take a move action while doing it. You don't normally have that option when performing a full attack.
However, I can see a very strong raw and (this is going to be cool and fun as hell) case being made for the maneuver being allowed with a FoM.
This is why asking for a list seemed like the best and easiest solution (until new maneuvers with dubious application are made).
@starbuck
My question 4 was a little more subtle, and while you technically answered it, your example missed the subtlety and is exactly why I asked the question.
If I were a first level Maneuver Master and had a +2 attack bonus from strength and nothing else how do things look?
A.) I take a normal attack at +2.
B.) I make a maneuver attack at +2.
C.) I flurry taking a normal attack at +2 and a maneuver at +1 (1 effective Bab for monk during FoM only and 2 from str and -2 for FoM).
So far so good, I think.
D.) I flurry, using my normal attack as a maneuver and my bonus attack as a maneuver as well.
So what happens exactly?
First the normal attack that changes to a maneuver doesn't get monk level in Bab. It's operating at +0 Bab so only +2 to hit for str.
But is this attack penalized because it is a maneuver? The wording says that all maneuvers are penalized...not just the bonus.
Next, my bonus maneuver goes off. We know this one is at +1 after the modifiers.
So does my flurry of maneuvers look like this:
+2/+1
Or this:
+0/+1
This is a really huge deal in terms of having any chance of landing said maneuvers.
Worse, what happens at level 8? Now my maneuvers are at -5 total...or maybe just the second one...or is it just the bonus ones, or is it all of them?
Using the +2 str mod naked monk above we could have:
+8/+3 (not flurrying and without maneuvers)
+10/+5, +8/+5, +10/+3 (when using a maneuver during the full attack but not flurrying)
And then we get the flurry numbers:
+8/+3/+6/+3?
+8/+3/+3/+3?
What happens if we do maneuvers with our normal attacks as well?
+6/+3(or +1 if it's a maneuver) /+6/+3?
Maybe +3/-2/+3/+3? (This is the worst interpretation but it is a possible one since raw can work both ways).
Common sense might say that the only penalty is to the bonus maneuvers and that only each subsequent maneuver is at a worse penalty. But this is for pfs and it's an issue and without answers, there is going to be table variation, confusion and uncertainty.
At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
This ability replaces flurry of blows.
Figured if we are to discuss it, it should be readily available to pick apart the language.
Okay, so a few things jump out from reading this ability. You use your monk level in place of your BaB for the extra bonus maneuver, handy... but odd as it is, you gain not only this boon, but also a penalty. Odd way to make an ability function, to be honest.
The bonus maneuvers can be any maneuver, regardless of it normally being a standard action or not. This only applied to the bonus maneuver though. You couldn't for example use 2 dirty tricks as your full attack at level one. Though you could make an attack and use dirty trick, or even make a trip etc and use dirty trick.
The second major thing that pops out for me is that the -2 penalty applies to all maneuvers made. Regardless of whether or not they are bonus maneuvers. So, again, level one... if you attacked and used dirty trick, the dirty trick takes a -2 penalty, the attack does not. If you tripped and used dirty trick, they both take the - 2 penalty.
Another interesting thing is how the ability advances... you can eventually choose to make an additional bonus maneuver when using the FoM ability, but when you do... your maneuvers take an additional penalty of -3. That brings your total penalty up to a -5 for all maneuvers made as part of your FoM. Then again later you can make even one more bonus maneuver, but the penalty for using maneuvers rockets up by an additional -7... For a total of -12 to all maneuvers made as part of your FoM.
Seems a steep price... but then again, there aren't many abilities that give you essentially free standard actions, let alone three of them. There is always a price for that much economy.
Finally, lastly... this ability replaces Flurry of Blows... but it makes no mention whatsoever that it functions like Flurry of Blows or that it is treated as Flurry of Blows... it therefore is not Flurry of Blows nor is it affected by anything which specifically affects the Flurry of Blows ability.
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I have a Maneuver Master in pfs who recently was informed by my local VC and at least one other GM that I could not use flurry of maneuvers in armor or with a shield-this was after providing the vc with ultimate combat and the entry for the ability. I am required to have proof before using my class features now and playing the character again (who I have invested some time into).
FoM replaces FoB. The armor proficiency segment of the monk states that you cannot use fob, get the monk ac bonus, apply wisdom mod to ac or benefit from the fast movement bonus while wearing armor or using a shield. A character using either or both would lose all of those benefits. But if they replace fob with fom there is nothing in any FAQ or listed errata stating that you lose access to fom while wearing armor or using a shield.
I've been over the forums in search of answers, but there have been no official rulings posted from what I can see. Hit the FAQ button please to help get this resolved as quickly and officially as possible. I would really like to resume playing my character.
I will try and consolidate issues found over the forums.
The basic questions are:1.)Is FoM treated as FoB or is it a separate ability entirely?
2.)What restrictions are there for FoM?
3.)Which maneuvers can or cannot be performed as part of a FoM?4.)When using FoM are non-bonus maneuvers penalized (ie. Maneuvers performed at the normal Bab during the flurry)?
5.)At levels 1, 8 and 15 additional maneuver attacks are available. How do these penalties apply? (Ie. At level 15 does the final maneuver suffer a -12, all three bonus maneuvers suffer a -12, or all maneuvers done that round-bonus or not, suffer a -12).
Those are all that immediately come to mind.
1.) I feel they are separate from eachother. FoM has it's own BAB but goes about calculating a little differently - though still ending up rather similar to FoB. The main difference is using FoM's BAB equal to his Monk Level, and that TWF isn't involved like it is for FoB.
2.) Other than the penalties, just making a full-attack action.3.) Any of them can be performed, as it states that "At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action."
4.) Maneuvers performed outside of FoM would have a different BAB and potentially a different penalty. It depends on if you're using TWF and Light Weapons for instance.
5.) That part is a little confusing.. it comes off to me as the penalty increasing to a -12 eventually, for all maneuvers made with FoM. It seems harsh, but I guess it makes sense if you are getting 7 attacks on a full attack(TWF), and another 3 maneuvers of ANY kind on top of that.
I hope this helps!
They are similar - but not the same. FoM has some very big inbuild weaknesses. FoM should work in armor. Both because it's RAW, and because it makes sense balance wise.
*shrug*
I wouldn't allow a Maneuver Master Monk to Flurry of Maneuvers while wearing armor. There's grey area in the rules to say that the restrictions shouldn't apply, but I honestly think the intent is patently obvious.
Flurry of Maneuvers seems to be intended to work identically to Flurry of Blows. So penalties to maneuvers done while flurrying don't apply to maneuvers performed on their own (the penalty for the FoM mimics the penalty for TWF).
The extra penalties should apply the same way that ordinary Monks get their extra attacks for FoB. However, it says an additional -3/-7 (at 8th and 15th). I think it's supposed to mirror when the extra attacks come in for FoB, meaning it should be at an additional -5/-5 (because the second additional would stack). Or simply they could rewrite it to say you get additional attacks at the same time a Monk using ordinary FoB receives additional attacks.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The design team typically prefers that a given post have only one question, not a whole list that they'll have to answer all of before they can clear the post out of their FAQ queue. See this post, which is stickied at the top of this very forum, for more information on how to make a useful FAQ thread.
*shrug*
I wouldn't allow a Maneuver Master Monk to Flurry of Maneuvers while wearing armor. There's grey area in the rules to say that the restrictions shouldn't apply, but I honestly think the intent is patently obvious.
Flurry of Maneuvers seems to be intended to work identically to Flurry of Blows. So penalties to maneuvers done while flurrying don't apply to maneuvers performed on their own (the penalty for the FoM mimics the penalty for TWF).
The extra penalties should apply the same way that ordinary Monks get their extra attacks for FoB. However, it says an additional -3/-7 (at 8th and 15th). I think it's supposed to mirror when the extra attacks come in for FoB, meaning it should be at an additional -5/-5 (because the second additional would stack). Or simply they could rewrite it to say you get additional attacks at the same time a Monk using ordinary FoB receives additional attacks.
Disregard the quoted post. I was misreading the relevant FAQ.
It still boggles my mind how the FAQ works, but whatever. It's how it works.
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Here is a link to a FAQ that addresses at least part of the issues and confirms some of what I already thought I knew.
Simple question, possibly complex answer:
The opening line of overrun states: As a standard action,taken during your move or as part of a charge...
FoM states that any maneuver may be performed, even if it would normally require an attack action or standard action to perform.
This is a specific feature so would it take precendence over the general rules/wording of overrun? You still cannot take a move action while performing a flurry. So what happens?
Do you end up making a 5' step into your enemies square? Do you get to make the overrun check but because you cannot take the move action do not pass through their space? Does this in turn mean that flurrying with overrun turns it into a more difficult trip attempt requiring you to beat their cmd by 5 or more to knock them prone? Or do you ever get to attempt the maneuver at all?
And on the much more fun and awesome end- if you can overrun, do you get to take any remaining movement that you have to do it during your flurry? Overrun is a difficult maneuver to succeed in performing at all without single-minded specialization, more so to do it with the hope of achieving the secondary effect of knocking the targets prone. Does this interpretation lead to any undue game imbalances or is the mix of coolness and difficult maneuver combined with rules shenanigans fair and worthwhile?
From what I can see, all the maneuvers listed in the crb can be used while flurrying (and I am partial to and invested in that ruling). However, I completely understand why some-specifically overrun would or could not. But when someone (like my character) wants to do it, it is important to know which of the above options will take place. So a simple question, which maneuvers can be done with FoM, actually has a more complicated answer because maybe some don't work or they interact differently when they do.
Ill concur with jiggy as I wish to live in an unimploded universe.
The serious answe is the mechanics of overrun don't make it plausible and you'd find yourself needing rules that sont exist.
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As a gm I would look at it two ways:
First- how powerful and balanced is the group? And what level of threat are my enemies and challenges?
If the PC's are heavily unoptimized except the Maneuver master monk, I'd disallow the best ruling (overrun while flurrying and take all your remaining movement to boot). But if the group just worked well together or was well optimized, etc, then I would let the monk go to town since that interpretation of the ruling really exemplifies exactly what a monk should be able to do as a mobile combatant, minus the fact he would have to use overrun to do it. Is, being able to take multiple attacks while still benefiting from their fast movement.
With the accuracy issues, this would be in line and seem fair when compared to other naturally efficient martials.
Lastly, I would allow something like this were my threats substantially taxing to my players.
Second- cool/fun factor aside, how do I make this work within the rules while keeping it reasonable?
This probably means that if you overrun while using FoM, if you have enough available movement speed remaining on your turn (and you almost always should except for special conditions like scorpion style, being small, difficult terrain, combinations of such effects, etc) then you may move into any square adjacent to the target after the maneuver is successfully completed. You would otherwise follow all of the remaining available rules of overrun as normal. Even with size increases and there being multiple overrun targets in your path, I believe this still works.
Why do I think this particular ruling is reasonable? Well, what does this simulate? Great cleave. You need 13 str, +4 Bab, power attack and cleave.
You get additional attacks when you land a hit on a for within reach, you don't need to perform a full attack action to do it, and all of the attacks are at your highest Bab. You can effective!y hit every opponent within reach who is adjacent to at least one other opponentopponent, all for a single standard action and a -2 penalty to ac.
To perform the overrun flurry, you need to have +1 Bab, power attack and 13 str. You generally need improved oveturn moo or you will provoke just for trying. When you try, your overrun is penalized by 2 points making it less likely to succeed and without improved overrun, your targets can simply choose to avoid you, negating the secondary option which could be done with easier maneuvers. If you are successful, you don't actually deal any damage, you move through an opponents space. If you role very well, the opponent is knocked prone, however.
Having greater overrun helps in trying to give you a chance to land the maneuver since you don't get weapon bonuses to do it and if you knock them prone you can take a complimentary aoo. This, however, requires Bab +7.
All for the primary effect of moving through enemies.
But if a DM or the FAQ ruled such that overrun simply cannot be done while flurrying, I would understand (but be somewhat disheartened).
Until there is an answer to this, I will be offering this suggestion to any gm for my games. If I flurry and succeed, I move through to a square adjacent to the enemy as normal provided I have movement left to do so. It's tactical, precise (did I forget to mention cool?) and exactly what the archetype is designed to do.
If the gm dislikes that, I will suggest I be allowed to make the check but not get any movement (so I can still knock prone but then I am better off using trip). So meh.
Here is a link to a FAQ that addresses at least part of the issues and confirms some of what I already thought I knew.
Simple question, possibly complex answer:
The opening line of overrun states: As a standard action,taken during your move or as part of a charge...
FoM states that any maneuver may be performed, even if it would normally require an attack action or standard action to perform.
Small correction:
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action.
It says one maneuver, not any.
Last piece of the puzzle:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
So overrun is a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge. This means you can either move and overrun, or charge and overrun for the bonus and penalty.
FoM lets you make a maneuver regardless of whether it replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action.
Overrun meets neither of those criteria, as it is taken either as Standard during a Move (which I guess is some otherwise undefined category) or as part of a Charge. A Charge can be a standard action, but only during a surprise round where you can't normally full attack anyway (and thus can't use FoM).
Finally, Full Attack states you can't take any movement other than a 5-ft step, and nothing in FoM seems to override that.
At least, that's how I'd rule it barring any further evidence.
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Well, overrun is a standard action. It says 'as a standard action, taken as part of...'.
If it had said 'as a standard and a move action' or ' this is what overrun does and this takes up both the standard and movement actions for the turn'.
But it doesn't say either of those. It clearly states that it is a standard action. However, I believe that it is a 'special kind of standard actiom' much as there are 'special kinds of full round actions' which the developers have pointed out before. So this seems to me to be a case of a special kind of standard action that possibly interacts with an ability that probably wasn't intended to use it.
So, I disagree. I believe that overrun does (initially) meet the criteria for FoM. It just gets stopped because you cannot take a move action while flurrying. Maybe the overrun is a packaged deal and trumps flurry. Maybe the flurry trumps overrun. I mean, how many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie roll pop?
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overrun would be taking a maneuver many people struggle to understand then making it harder to understand.
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Here is adding some more fuel to the fire. In the crb on page 181 under actions in combat - action types- move action and full round action, the five foot step is very difinively considered a move action......it's just a special one. It breaks several rules that normal movement can't, such as being done during a full round action, being able to mini spring attack without the feat, etc.the five foot step also carries with it restrictions.
This is relevant because some dm's might say that you simply cannot flurry of maneuvers and overrun. They will point to the secondary part of the line stating that while overrun is a standard action, it must be taken during part of a move. A five foot step is a move action.
Overrun has no clause requiring you to have enough movement to finish passing through the creatures space. Instead, there are rules for this:
On page 194 of the crb under special movement rules- "accidentally" ending movement in an illegal space, it states that if you find yourself ending movement in a space that is not allowed or where you are normally not allowed to stop you end up in the last legal position you occupied or the closest legal position if there is one that is closer.
What this means is that by raw, you can flurry and overrun. However, the only favorable way to overrun through an enemy square in this manner- is when you start in difficult terrain and end in normal or difficult terrain. There are several reasons where going back into the difficult terrain square would cost more movement than actually passing through to the nearest open square. Dragon style, nimble steps, up a hill, can all end up potentially creating this situation where going back is more movement than ending in the next closest square.
So, I think I have solved two, make that three, of the five issues.
Flurry in armor. Check.
Overrun/drag while flurrying? Check. (However, how far you can drag is still up for debate)
Is flurry of blows the same as flurry of maneuvers? No. The FAQ says as much right here.
This leaves us with two main questions for the FAQ which may be worth posting again for more expedited responses. I will try and get to that by tonight.
There's a difference between accidentally ending up in a creatures square and deliberately doing so. Overrun is confusing and to keep it less confusing I don't pussh the movement issue.
But overrun says you must move through the opponentsn square and provides no language for an "in case you cant"
Pf is a permission based system all of the combat maneuvers require a standard action then have their own fiddly rules.
Fom makes the exception that you can do these standard action maneuvers as part of the fom but makew no other exceptions.
What this means is you have to meet all other rules of those maneuvers.
A final note and please don't take this wrong but I think a lot of your conflict issues over this are player personality conflict issues. Its not a good idea to base a pfs character on grey areas of the. Rules.
RAW it is legit, and I would allow it. Unless the VC can show proof that it acts like FoB in every other way he should not be altering the ability. Take it to the PFS boards. Sometimes the guy in charge steps in.
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@Mojorat I can see how maybe you think that the character was built around a rules grey area. This is not so. I lost a monk to heavy handed errata and had to make a new one. So this time I built around countering the idea that monks cannot hit, cannot do damage, cannot tank, and that combat maneuvers were irrelevant after about level 8 because you can't get them to land.
Since my math showed that this (all of those statements) were flat out lies/incorrect, I saught to prove it. When I picked a combat style, I had several considerations to make before ultimately deciding on specializing in Overrun. I heavily dislike (and rapidly grow bored with) doing things everyone else is doing. You don't stand out. In some areas you make concessions (maybe you take power attack, maybe you're another dragon style monk, etc) but you can still radically stylize yourself beyond that. So I did. Almost all maneuver users are built around tripping, grappling or um...yeah. Occasionally you see a neat aid another build, more rare still, a bull rush one. As I searched for inspiration, I discovered the 'built for speed' monk who used ridiculous movement speed and overrun as an effective combat tool. I was intrigued greatly and modeled the concept after him but abandoned the speed idea due to several factors. But I kept the overrun concept because it was so rarely used yet was easily a viable combat maneuver and useful!
Finally, I picked classes and went with ones that I would normally never play but which also enhanced my ability to do what the character was built to do. Only after I built and played the character did grey areas within the rules come up and this was from GM's. But as I looked more into the details, the more I learned and the more I realized how the rules were not clear on many things. And so we have this FAQ.
I hope this clarifies for you my position better. I admit, I am a Timmy but I am also all of the other gamer types in fair measure. I had no intent to abuse or even use grey areas of the rules (let alone knowledge of the grey areas). I was almost 100% certain that FoM could be used in armor BEFORE stating up the character since his stat selection is based on wearing armor. I even searched first. But you know, you sometimes miss things.
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Take 5-Foot Step
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
You can take a five-foot step in addition to the other actions you take in a round, unless you use another form of movement. So, you could stand up (move action), and attack (standard action) and then five-foot step.
Edit: fixed spoiler
Oh I wasn't referring to th armoured monk part. I agree there its fully in th rules. But 5 seconds with th search function would have shown huge numbeers of players don't understand overrun.
Taking that into account then trying to revolve a character around using it with fob should have been predictible as an issue. I really recomend th elephant stomp trick I mentioned up thread. It removes some of th grey areas.
Edit to add I think ovverrun once understood is a great maneuver. It actualy adds a lot of action economy to movement. I'd just never use it with fom.