Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, so far at least. which I don't much understand. I would have definitely backed the project then if I had known about it. Punished for ignorance, not cool. :pHas this been stated by someone from goblinworks that they are definitely not providing them? If so that's kind of a downer. I would have loved to have backed the project if I had known about it.
I don't think they've officially stated it , but they've alluded to it. Time will tell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine Nihimon will provide a quote verifying one way or the other, but yes, it's a reward for those who backed the kickstarter (which barely met its goal in the last couple hours). Basically letting anyone buy it now would be a slap in the face of those who were told it was a kickstarter exclusive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine Nihimon will provide a quote verifying one way or the other, but yes, it's a reward for those who backed the kickstarter (which barely met its goal in the last couple hours). Basically letting anyone buy it now would be a slap in the face of those who were told it was a kickstarter exclusive.
I understand that definitely, I just think there are other ways to reward them. In hindsight it punishes the people who were ignorant of the Kickstarter. I blame the marketing team :0
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, so far at least. which I don't much understand. I would have definitely backed the project then if I had known about it. Punished for ignorance, not cool. :pHas this been stated by someone from goblinworks that they are definitely not providing them? If so that's kind of a downer. I would have loved to have backed the project if I had known about it.
They say "Never say never..." but I would bet that the odds are waaaaay against DT being reoffered.
We are unlikely to offer Destiny's Twin again.
Found that quote fairly quickly here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine Nihimon will provide a quote verifying one way or the other, but yes, it's a reward for those who backed the kickstarter (which barely met its goal in the last couple hours). Basically letting anyone buy it now would be a slap in the face of those who were told it was a kickstarter exclusive.I have nice things. You are not allowed to have these nice things. Because reasons.
This is good logic.
Think of it this way... If they were trying to open a car lot to sell cars, but had to make so many sales up front to even get it started, they may have to resort to some pretty hefty wheeling-and-dealing. So they tell people... "Act now, and we'll give you a free economy car with any purchase of a regular priced sedan or better! If you miss out now this deal will never come along again!" (which was practically implied) and people acted on that promise and then the company gives out the same promotion after they have already opened the car lot then some of the initial people feel like they were lied to and taken advantage of.
From the business side, they have their car lot and are meeting expectations. They have some popular demand for more product and earning the extra cash is desirable. But why give out free cars now? They are meeting their targets, so it is not time to be making sacrifices to bring in business. Some of these players that cannot get a Destiny's Twin may actually purchase two accounts! That is a lot of money to potentially leave on the table if they have zero risk if they don't make the sales.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine Nihimon will provide a quote verifying one way or the other, but yes, it's a reward for those who backed the kickstarter (which barely met its goal in the last couple hours). Basically letting anyone buy it now would be a slap in the face of those who were told it was a kickstarter exclusive.I have nice things. You are not allowed to have these nice things. Because reasons.
This is good logic.
"Hey guys, remember how we said there was an exclusive as thanks for backing our kickstarter? Well, we decided that you aren't important to us and we're selling it to everyone now."
This is a good way to make people feel betrayed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's actually fairly disappointing as it was by and large the best benefit you could have gotten for supporting PfO, none of the higher price points for the current support other than the 35 dollar one look interesting at all.Yes, so far at least. which I don't much understand. I would have definitely backed the project then if I had known about it. Punished for ignorance, not cool. :pHas this been stated by someone from goblinworks that they are definitely not providing them? If so that's kind of a downer. I would have loved to have backed the project if I had known about it.They say "Never say never..." but I would bet that the odds are waaaaay against DT being reoffered.
We are unlikely to offer Destiny's Twin again.Found that quote fairly quickly here.
Well to be fair, they have to cut it off at some point. It is loss of potential long term revenue. It is a little bit more limited than just an Alt. You can't play them at the same time (best info that I remember). They have to be on the same account, so if you get banned (heaven forbid) you lose both...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds like those people are petty.I imagine Nihimon will provide a quote verifying one way or the other, but yes, it's a reward for those who backed the kickstarter (which barely met its goal in the last couple hours). Basically letting anyone buy it now would be a slap in the face of those who were told it was a kickstarter exclusive.I have nice things. You are not allowed to have these nice things. Because reasons.
This is good logic.
"Hey guys, remember how we said there was an exclusive as thanks for backing our kickstarter? Well, we decided that you aren't important to us and we're selling it to everyone now."
This is a good way to make people feel betrayed.
Lying to your consumers is a good thing, I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am an original KS backer with DT and though I understand Drakhans reasoning, I feel that a healthy financial situation for PFO is even more important.
If they felt that offering DT again at some point would yield them a huge pike in backing(not just in money but also in numbers following this project), I would be all for it. They would have to weigh this against the long-term loss of finances due to the nature of DT and off course feelings of distrust by original members who may take any future promises with a grain of salt.
Maybe some day a deal like "Trio's Fate" will be offered in the shop, where you can have 3 characters train XP at the same time for the price of 2.
They also could offer the original DT for the duration of EE for a much higher pricepoint, let us say 100 or even 200 dollars. Visibility of PFO will grow big time during EE so seems like a good time to make some serious money. That pricepoint would come close to the so called "Lifetime" membership deals of Themepark MMO's(I realize that DT is not at all the same). I think a lot of people would have no problem paying that, nor would original backers feel betrayed(I think). The original 35 dollar deal would be still be a steal.
Ryan has been very clear about "no lifeteam subs" and I agree that this would completely undermine the subscriptionmmodel of PFO. But DT requires someone to be a monthly paying subscriber in the first place, and only then the perk will come into effect.
I feel that this "double whammy deal" is a smart mechanic that, together with PFO's model of "pay for XP" a la Eve, will work towards keeping players subscribed, even if they decide not to play for a while. So in fact it seems much "safer" for a company to sell a DT deal, then to sell a lifetimemembership, which is a "once-only type of income" compared to the DT deal.
So not only could they sell it for a higher pricepoint, but it may boost retention. I realize it would in fact be a complex calculation of onetime income-boost x retention minus loss of a possible second sub.
Nightdrifter? :)
Lots of assumptions that undoubtedly could be shot full of holes.
Another assumption of mine will be, that this will not be the last time that the DT deal will come up: once interest for PFO ramps up, even though the DT deal will be way in the past then, I expect people to feel like they are missing out on the number one feature for PFO, due to the nature of its submodel. Only once the amount of "regular" subscribers vastly overshadows the amount of DT-enabled members, will the constant popping up of this topic wane, imo.
Maybe GW could do an email survey on this matter to all the original KS backers (around 9k), with a simple question:
"Would you feel betrayed if we started offering the DT deal for 200 dollars in hte GW shop?"
I am going to shut up now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are a lot of factors here. The initial income boost, the possible increased retention of DT-enabled accounts because you get twice for what you pay, but also the fact that accounts will be abandoned because people simply do not like the game. So you have their 200 or 300 dollars but they cause no overhead.
I agree with you at some point the deal should stop, likely before OE, because once the membership crystallizes into hardcore fans of the game, they would all buy DT-deals since they know they will be subbing anyway(because liking the game). Even so, these people may quit at some point.
Taking away the deal would mean you only postpone the friction between the "haves (DT)" and "have-nots(no DT)".
So you may have a point there.
However there is also the fact, considering the flat powercurve, and skills costing exponentially more xp, that it just is not very interesting to keep a sub running on a 4-year old character, and that even considering the DT deal, you could better apply that XP(money) to another character.
So lots of factors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As for my first post in this thread: even though I am sure Goblinworks would love to have a huge pike I meant a huge spike. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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However there is also the fact, considering the flat powercurve, and skills costing exponentially more xp, that it just is not very interesting to keep a sub running on a 4-year old character, and that even considering the DT deal, you could better apply that XP(money) to another character.
I'm going on 5 years in EVE. Still tons of skills I want to train. 10 year old characters still have skills they can train.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I imagine Nihimon will provide a quote verifying one way or the other, but yes, it's a reward for those who backed the kickstarter (which barely met its goal in the last couple hours). Basically letting anyone buy it now would be a slap in the face of those who were told it was a kickstarter exclusive.I understand that definitely, I just think there are other ways to reward them. In hindsight it punishes the people who were ignorant of the Kickstarter. I blame the marketing team :0
Those who did help in the hour of need are to be rewarded. Your reasons for not helping in that hour of need belong to you.
If I fell, and someone helped me up I would owe thanks to that person and not to someone who happened to stroll by later. If I were asked to explain myself it wouldn't be mean to explain why I thanked the one who helped me but not the one who happened to pass by later. But it would be wrong of the Johnny-come-lately to call me mean for not thanking them too.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I did the math a while back on the subject of lifetime subscriptions, and the Net Present Value of a lifetime sub is roughly $950; at the start of EE it would have NPV of $1000. That's making assumptions to minimize the NPV, like high future discounting.
I don't think anyone is willing to pay anywhere near that much for a lifetime sub, and DT has the same value.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not think DT is really comparable, because for DT to kick in, you need to be paying in the first place. I am sure math can help here but I am not good at that.
I am interested, how did you come at 950 dollars? Did you take an average subscriptiontime, and how did you come to that number? I think Ryan was sporting figures of 1800 dollars or some, there must be a quote somewhere....
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Goblin Squad Member
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@RHMG I wish you guys were there to defend that position when it came to the Star Wars The Old Republic Collectors Edition "exclusive" in-game store. That store was supposed to have monthly, unique additions that only Collector edition(150 bucks) buyers could purchase.
I think they have added like 8 crappy items since SWTOR went live years ago, all of them in the very beginning. :(
So forgive me if I take these promises about "exclusives" in game-land with a grain of salt. :(
Just to make sure, when the DT deal was announced during the KS I made sure to create two more accounts and buy in for 35 dollars so I am good to go. I just feel for all these folks that just now start to get interested in PFO and want some goodness too.
It is not that the game has gone live for a year already, they are not only still in pre-alpha, but are actally in a phase where extra funding/backers can still make a serious difference. I would say, haul in these people and make them believers!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The deal was meant to drive hasty decisions way back when there was less known about the feasibility of the project and when the risk was high. The risk is lower now, and the time to wait until you have a product is much less. As such, less incentive is needed to part potential customers with their money. It is simply one of the down-sides to our capital-focused society.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Much as I'd like Destiny's Twin (who wouldn't?), I accept and understand that I can't have it. I wasn't aware of the Kickstarter and missed out on the initial offers, but that's the break.
I missed the opportunity to 'buy' an exclusive product and now can't have it. If I could then it wouldn't be an exclusive product.
We have a furniture company here in the UK that is notorious for always having sales, and is consequently the butt of many jokes ('I remember that day well, it was when DFS wasn't having a sale'). Were GW to keep recycling exclusive offers, they'd drag their reputation down to that level.
If everyone is special then nobody is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I did the math a while back on the subject of lifetime subscriptions, and the Net Present Value of a lifetime sub is roughly $950; at the start of EE it would have NPV of $1000. That's making assumptions to minimize the NPV, like high future discounting.
I don't think anyone is willing to pay anywhere near that much for a lifetime sub, and DT has the same value.
Figuring a 5% return and $15 per month max P cost, I was more of the opinion that $3600 would be proper investment for "no payments forever". This should also have a limit on maximum requests of devs per month (but normal participation in crowd forging. Not sure what the limit on forum posts should be, but probably 50-100 per day.
EDIT -- removed extra 0
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Goblin Squad Member
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Destiny's Twin is a secondary character associated with the account your Kickstarter character is on. It acquires XP at the same rate as your primary character and is for all intents and purposes a second character. The one restriction to Destiny's Twin that is known is that unlike a second paid-for character, you will not be able to have your primary character and the Destiny's Twin logged in simultaneously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Q: What exactly is Destiny's Twin and how will it impact me (since I have one)? Is it a separate character I can develop for free? Btw - how many characters can be associated with one account - just one?
Destiny's Twin is a secondary character associated with the account your Kickstarter character is on. It acquires XP at the same rate as your primary character and is for all intents and purposes a second character. The one restriction to Destiny's Twin that is known is that unlike a second paid-for character, you will not be able to have your primary character and the Destiny's Twin logged in simultaneously.
Lifedragn's answer is mostly correct. I would simply add that Ryan has actually said you may not be able to have your Main and your DT logged in simultaneously.
To answer the second part of your question, you'll be able to have multiple Characters on a single Account. Exactly how many will be determined by technical limitations, but unless you're accustomed to creating dozens of Characters, you'll likely have plenty of room.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exactly how many will be determined by technical limitations, but unless you're accustomed to creating dozens of Characters, you'll likely have plenty of room.
In my MMO experience, the dozens of characters is usually considered normal. Most of my old WoW friends had maxed their character slots on the server they were playing on. I have a few Guild Wars 2 friends who have purchased in excess of 5 additional character slots on top of the 5 that come with the account. One person is up to 14, and hopes to get 2 more.
Roleplayers go crazy with alts, if allowed. They love storytelling around multitudes of different characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a cast of characters in my head and I enjoy playing them in games. I would really love to be able to easily control several of them at the same time.
When I was playing ArcticMUD, I used zMUD instead of just a plain telnet client. It made it really easy to do a lot of things like map "cast 'magic missile' goblin" to a simple key-press, and even creating variables to store "goblin" so my macro could say "cast 'magic missile' @target". It was awesome using triggers to, for example, automatically fill my waterskins whenever I walked into a room that had a clean water fountain, although I had to do some tweaking to the trigger after I walked through by the fountain in Neraka and picked up poisoned water. ArcticMUD was really adamant about not letting you play multiple characters, though.
I find it kind of funny that the old text MUDs didn't have a problem with letting you use triggers, but wouldn't allow logged-in alts, while modern MMOs don't have a problem with logged-in alts but get all bent out of shape about triggers. I really, really wish PFO would allow me to have both...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Plus some players (like me) have a great concept for a mysterious witch... but then they also like the idea of an Arthurian paladin. Oooh, but what about a hardened greatsword-wielding mercenary? Gnome jester?
I have more ideas for characters to play than I have money to support, but I'll try to trim my enthusiasm to suit my wallet. As Lifedragn points out, part of the problem is your real-world mindset that day might not always suit the character you play. Some days you want to build a complex network of political contacts, and sometimes you just want to grab a big axe and hurt something!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have more ideas for characters to play than I have money to support
Well said! By the time I left WoW, I had an RP server roster full of Horde characters, a second RP server roster full of Alliance characters... and then a third server roster for the ones I played with my non-RP friends and family. I'll try to stick with my main and Destiny's Twin, but I suspect that will be tough...