RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'm not usually one for theorycraft builds, but I've been kicking around the idea of a pair of characters built around the Butterfly Sting feat. The basic idea is that you have two characters. "Float Like a Butterfly" ("FLAB") TWFs high-threat weapons like kukris, using Butterfly Sting to set up autocrits for "Sting Like a Bee" ("SLAB"), who 2Hs a x4 crit weapon.
The basic shtick is pretty simple, but takes a few levels to set up. There are a lot of different ways to get multiplying adds on SLAB, plus possible teamwork feat synergies.
SLAB is the easier of the two to build. Almost any basic high-damage 2H build works fine. A barbarian chassis gets damage adds from rage; a fighter gets them from Weapon Specialization and weapon training; a slayer gets them from favored target. I'm leaning toward slayer because of sneak attack (although it doesn't get multiplied, SLAB should be flanking with FLAB quite often). Race is anything with a STR bonus and a racial SLA to qualify for Arcane Strike (which gets multiplied on crits).
FLAB is a bit trickier. FLAB needs at a minimum TWF, Combat Expertise, and Butterfly Sting. As soon as he can get it, he also wants Improved Critical and probably Critical Focus. But what class? Since he's going to be flanking with SLAB as often as possible, sneak attack classes are attractive, but full BAB classes are also attractive. Less conventionally, a bard could be a decent option for FLAB because he can give SLAB adds from things like inspire courage and good hope, all of which get multiplied on crits.
What does the hive mind think?
I made a kukri-wielding ninja and naginata-wielding samurai team for an encounter. It was pretty devastating.
I made a kukri-wielding ninja and naginata-wielding samurai team for an encounter. It was pretty devastating.
Could I see the builds?
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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That seems even more feat intensive than trying to do it with TWF. You'd need Weapon Focus and Crusader's Flurry just to get the same benefit, then Combat Expertise and Butterfly's Sting, then Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance. Out of those you could only snag Weapon Focus as a crusader cleric bonus feat, so you'd wind up using regular feats to get there, which would put you around 5th level before you could even pull off the basic shtick. Plus you take a hit to BA for stacking non-full-BA classes.
I was thinking maybe ninja, for class proficiency in wakizashi, or slayer, for full BA plus sneak attack. I would like to be able to use swashbuckler, but that would take either a dip or a feat for wakizashi proficiency, as that's the only 18-20 light piercing weapon.
If you want to do it quickly, 2 levels of Lore Warden Fighter will get you there. After that, FLAB can take pretty much whatever it wants.
In fact, there'd be a lot of sense in making FLAB a dirty trick/disarm debuffer once you've got the TWF and butterfly sting chain established. This would grant versatility and make FLAB an interesting character to play in its own right.
Alternately, you may want to introduce more crowd control and multiple opponent fighting ability for FLAB. SLAB sounds like he'll be more than prepared to take on any single opponent, but butterfly sting would be massively overpowered for mooks.
Either way, dotted for interest. This pair sounds like they'd be massively effective.
True, but the objective is to have as many swings as possible so that you increase the chance of sending over a crit with butterfly sting. The monk build traded TWF for flurry, which was effectively the same. Dervish Dance doesn't.
Point. I was thinking "the more dice you roll, the more chances there are to roll a 15-20" but the first roll is meaningless unless you can confirm.
A full BAB class that boosts attack as much as possible (weapon focus, the 4000gp ioun stone, etc) would probably be the best bet. Perferably with something additional that can increase the chances of hitting like a Barbarian's rage or a Ranger's favored enemy. TWF would still be good for the multiple attack rolls. Lore Warden Fighter 2/Urban Barbarian X would be a good Dex based solution. That build is ready to butterfly sting by level 2 or 3. Strength based TWF means going Ranger, but Ranger 2/Lore Warden 2/Ranger X takes an extra level unless you can retrain.
For SLAB, Kensai Magus with a light pick.
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So, here's a pair of starter stubs for two PFS legal butterfly sting builds. The first assumes a partner. The second doesn't. Both assume a non-human race.
CL = Feat gained from character level
F = Feat from Lore Warden Fighter
Dual Weidling Kukris
1 CL - Two Weapon Fighting
1 F - Weapon Finesse
2 CL - Weapon Focus (Kukri)
2 F - Butterfly Sting
2 F - Combat Expertise
3... Warpriest? Good self buffing
Two Handing an Elven Curve Blade
1 CL - Weapon Focus (ECB)
1 F - Power Attack
2 CL - Furious Focus
2 F - Butterfly Sting
2 F - Combat Expertise
3... Urban Barbarian. With 13 Str, the P.A. bonus can be used. Treat as a standard Two-hander build except it's dex based. It's good solo but has the added trick of handing a crit off to a dedicated two hander. An interesting choice for society play.
How about a summoner with a Kali eidolon. Then have the other be a magus with an x 4 weapon bonus points for using a touch attack x 4 weapon.
Alternatively the summoner could be a melee summoner and then it could be done with only one character.
I made a kukri-wielding ninja and naginata-wielding samurai team for an encounter. It was pretty devastating.Could I see the builds?
I can't find them.
FLAB: Wayang ninja, probably Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Butterfly Sting, maybe Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Weapon Focus. I think it was a pair of keen kukri, since it was a level 9 party. Boots of Haste would be nice, or a 3.5 Belt of Battle.
SLAB: Nagaji samurai, probably with Weapon Focus, Power Attack, maybe Furious Focus.
I think a bunch of each would be fun for a higher level party. Lots of flanking buddies. Maybe a BBEG buffer.
I'd much rather hold a pick in one hand and a scimitar in the other and set up my own stings.
Warpriests could have the SLAB's weapon damage increase if it's lower than the Sacred Weapon Damage. It's best 2with two-handing Heavy Picks.
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I had two characters do this in my game. They were a TWF Lore Warden Fighter with Kukris and a Dex Magus with a Light Pick. Scary because the Magus can be sure to use their Spellstrike w/Shocking Grasp on a critical (it only doubles, but the weapon's damage still quadruples). He was also a Kensai, which makes this even worse due to Perfect Strike. Very mean.
But honestly, the key is the Butterfly Sting guy...the other one can be anyone using a x4 crit weapon (probably two-handed with Power Attack, unless going the Magus route above).
For your Butterfly sting guy, Lore Warden fighter is just generally cool, and can get all the basics of the build by 2nd level (as Mystically Inclined notes), and is, IMO, more fun than a normal Fighter anyway. He can also dabble in Combat Maneuvers like Disarm and Trip for situations where this tactic doesn't work or hasn't been set up yet.
I like the idea from up-thread about the FLAB having Improved Dirty Trick. It just seems like a fun feat!
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I'd go with a TWF Slayer for FLAB, since you get TWF for free, and some of your in-class bonus to damage doesn't work with critical hits, while also being able to get Full BAB or even Full BAB+5 to attack, and not caring about Dex much. By 3rd level with a STR build, you can get Combat Expertise, Butterfly's Sting, and Two-Weapon Fighting and you are set. You don't really need Lore Warden for FLAB, and you only wait one more level, with more skills and out-of-combat utility.
For SLAB, Abyssal Bloodrager is probably your best bet. Increased Strength and Enlarge Person when you rage, along with bonuses to Will Saves while raging to help avoid the "Fun GM Spells" .
For STLAB, an interesting twist would be cleric (or inquisitor, or anyone else who can take the subdomain) with the Tyranny subdomain.
Delayed Lash (Su)
At 8th level, as an immediate action upon successfully striking an opponent with a melee attack, you can choose to hold the damage (but not any other effects of the attack) for up to 24 hours. At any time during those 24 hours you can, as standard action, give instructions to the target as long as it can hear you. If the target refuses to carry them out, or tries to subvert them in any other way, it immediately takes damage equal to twice what you held in abeyance. This is a language-dependent effect. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.
If you can optimize STAB's crit damage enough, you can make 2x that amount auto-death for anyone remotely CR-appropriate and force them to do whatever you want or DIE. Muwahahahaha!
I could see FLAB as a Ranger with favored enemy evil outsiders using 2 kukris and SLAB as a Paladin using a scythe.
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For STLAB, an interesting twist would be cleric (or inquisitor, or anyone else who can take the subdomain) with the Tyranny subdomain.
If you can optimize STAB's crit damage enough, you can make 2x that amount auto-death for anyone remotely CR-appropriate and force them to do whatever you want or DIE. Muwahahahaha!Delayed Lash (Su)
At 8th level, as an immediate action upon successfully striking an opponent with a melee attack, you can choose to hold the damage (but not any other effects of the attack) for up to 24 hours. At any time during those 24 hours you can, as standard action, give instructions to the target as long as it can hear you. If the target refuses to carry them out, or tries to subvert them in any other way, it immediately takes damage equal to twice what you held in abeyance. This is a language-dependent effect. You can use this ability once per day at 8th level, and an additional time per day for every four levels beyond 8th.
Note: Butterfly Sting is explicitly affiliated with Desna, who is the most anti-tyrrany God possible. So...good luck justifying this thematically. I wouldn't allow it, and I doubt I'm alone.
It's still good mechanically, but just a head's up.
Here's a PFS legal "party rogue" build who uses butterfly sting. It's ready to Sting out of the gate and is Dual Wielding by level 2. I think the Butterfly Sword is a nice weapon to go along with this for flavor, but optimizers can use Wakizashis or (for non-Tien characters) Kukris. The build could probably use improvement after level 6, as nothing really jumped out at me as a must take. On the other hand, that gives it the advantage of being customizable.
Human Tien Slayer
Str 14 (16), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 10 (Alternate: Wis 14, Cha 7)
Skills: (Maxed) Perception, Disable Device, Stealth, Acrobatics, Use Magic Device, Survival. Dip in others
Traits- Reactionary, Dangerously Curious
1 Human Bonus Feat- Combat Expertise
1 Feat- Butterfly Sting
2 Slayer talent- Two Weapon Fighting
3 Feat- Gang Up
4 Slayer talent- Trapfinding (Disable Device becomes a class skill)
5 Feat- Weapon Focus: Butterfly Sword (Optimized: Wakazashi)
6 Slayer talent- Improved TWF
7 Feat- Double Slice (assumed the character has a +2 Str/Dex/Con belt by now)
8 Slayer talent- Trap Spotter
9 Feat- Shadow Strike?
10 Advanced Talent- Hunter's Surprise or Opportunist
11 Feat- Iron Will?
12 Advanced Talent- Evasion or the talent not taken at 10
Overall, it's a good scout/trap monkey with decent but not great damage, a good amount of flavor, and one really nice trick to please his two hander buddy. Use Magic Device allows for some tactical/situational flexibility and emergency healing. I think it would work pretty well in PFS. It would make a respectable front liner and the inherent teamwork element of Butterfly Sting would provide a mechanical benefit to work together, which is never bad in Organized Play environments.
Question: Can you threat a crit on special attack rolls? Been wondering this for a while, like using aid another. I mean you have to be able to attack that target vs AC 10 so it might be possible right?
Id just make a ranger who uses TWF with a kukri and pick. According to raw you always count as your own ally as long as it isn't absurd, and this case seems pretty logical to me. As long as you use your attacks in the correct order, you ahould be able to make good use of this feat.
Note: Butterfly Sting is explicitly affiliated with Desna, who is the most anti-tyrrany God possible. So...good luck justifying this thematically. I wouldn't allow it, and I doubt I'm alone.
Since when? The description (on d20pfsrd) gives no such indication, and thankfully so. Because it is not a religion-based feat (lord knows there's too many of those...why do I have to worship Rovagug just to smash people in the face with armor spikes again?) and thus who you do or don't worship shouldn't matter for whether you can take the feat or not.
I'm getting quite sick of basic, useful combat techniques being locked into a particular religion. Man, if warriors don't pay lip service to a god, they can't hardly do anything!
I'm getting quite sick of basic, useful combat techniques being locked into a particular religion. Man, if warriors don't pay lip service to a god, they can't hardly do anything!
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. If a feat were a supernatural or spell-like ability you could justify it by saying the power is granted from the god in question, but I'm not aware of any feats which meet that criteria.
Same goes for a lot of the racial feats.
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Since when? The description (on d20pfsrd) gives no such indication, and thankfully so. Because it is not a religion-based feat (lord knows there's too many of those...why do I have to worship Rovagug just to smash people in the face with armor spikes again?) and thus who you do or don't worship shouldn't matter for whether you can take the feat or not.
The description on d20pfsrd is always world neutral (due to some legal issues with them advertising/selling 3rd party products) and thus never mentions such things (and occasionally rename things as well), and in this case the Feat itself never did per se. Though if you check what book it's from you'll find Faiths of Purity, where it's listed in the section on the fighting styles of Desna's worshipers as something basically exclusive to them. The name is also a clue, what with Desna being the butterfly goddess and a major (and pretty awesome) deity in the setting.
I'm getting quite sick of basic, useful combat techniques being locked into a particular religion. Man, if warriors don't pay lip service to a god, they can't hardly do anything!
A lot of real world societies have had particular combat styles they only taught to members of their group, it makes sense to me for religions in any polytheistic setting to do the same. It's not like it stops working if you forsake the God, her followers are just pretty much the only people who teach the particular technique. Seems reasonable enough to me. Rahadoum god-deniers get a list of interesting Feats, too, after all. As do various secret societies (heck, many get whole Classes...is it silly to need to be a member of the Hellknights to get the Hellknight class?).
Thematically, I also rather like the incentive to, y'know, actually put thought into your character's religious beliefs, history, and personality. Even if you decide not to worship Desna (or whatever), working out where and how the character picked up the Feat seems rife with cool backstory potential (maybe he saved the life of a warrior devoted to Desna who taught him the technique in exchange, maybe he grew up in a Desnan village but the faith never spoke to his heart, maybe he believed in Desna once but was then seduced into the cult of Razmiran and has become bitter towards all religion after discovering what a scam that was, etc.) or, if picked up later on in play, potentially a fun side-quest.
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Hey OP, I was working on a spreadsheet earlier to calculate (among other things) crit percentages per round for a shadowdancer who passes the crits off to her shadow... anyway, it's not exactly fit for the public but if you come up with a build or two it'd be easy for me to run the numbers for you. (Or if you're comfortable with spreadsheets and use googledocs I'll share it with you.)
Some ideas:
-For the low low price of 1 base attack, two levels of Rogue or Ninja yield 1d6 sneak attack and Pressure Points (1 point of Str or Dex damage on a sneak attack). Since getting crits requires confirming, you'll be built to hit reliably and a lot -- and doing dex damage just makes that easier.
-Remember that in order to get more than one chance to roll 15+, you have to be able to make full attacks. Lunge helps. Pounce helps.
The name is also a clue, what with Desna being the butterfly goddess and a major (and pretty awesome) deity in the setting.
I thought the name was just sort of like the D&D 3E Mosquito's Bite skill trick, where it's a flavor name for a technique, similar to how martial arts will tend to call something "tiger style" despite no actual tigers being involved.
For Mosquito Bite, it's because you do damage and the foe doesn't immediately realize it, much as how a mosquito can stealthily bite you w/o you noticing for a while.
In the particular case of Butterfly's Sting, I thought it was a reference to the Butterfly Effect. Similar in concept to Mosquito's Bite where you do something bad to the foe, but it's not immediately apparent and deceptively benign at first. being named after some god definitely drops its coolness factor a lot compared to my original view of its "fluff." :(
Well, there's no reason not to say that it could cleverly refer to both.
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I thought the name was just sort of like the D&D 3E Mosquito's Bite skill trick, where it's a flavor name for a technique, similar to how martial arts will tend to call something "tiger style" despite no actual tigers being involved.
For Mosquito Bite, it's because you do damage and the foe doesn't immediately realize it, much as how a mosquito can stealthily bite you w/o you noticing for a while.
In the particular case of Butterfly's Sting, I thought it was a reference to the Butterfly Effect. Similar in concept to Mosquito's Bite where you do something bad to the foe, but it's not immediately apparent and deceptively benign at first. being named after some god definitely drops its coolness factor a lot compared to my original view of its "fluff." :(
As Mystically Inclined notes, it could easily be both. Also (in that vein), stolen, because that's an awesome idea.
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Are you familiar with the Dvati race? Provided you can find or create a version that works for Pathfinder (and whoever does that deserves some kind of prize), they would be right up this alley.
Alternatively, the Pathfinder Summoner could pull this off - the Summoner (with the appropriate ability scores and feats, and/or perhaps a few levels in Fighter; being of Elven race could be good in this case, since that grants both a bonus to Dexterity and automatic rapier proficiency) could be "FLAB," and their eidolon (with 4 evolution points invested in the Weapon Training Evolution) "SLAB."
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Tengu get ALL sword proficiencies. They would make good FLABs. I made one for PbP, but the campaign never worked out.
EDIT:
The Swordmaster rogue archetype is pretty sweet. It replaces Trap Sense for a rage-like trance mechanic that grants some cool combat options, like a swift action 5 foot movement, charge, etc.
Also, the tengu rogue's favored class bonus is +1/2 to confirm critical hits.
So, a tengu swordmaster rogue can use a pair of (keen) wakizashi (15 or 18-20/x2) with a bonus to confirm crits.
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I will be trying out a magus for the flab: Effective twf with one weapon for cheap upgrades, easy access to keen, and effective full BAB with arcane pool hits all the right buttons.
This has a big disadvantage for this build: No Improved or Greater TWF, and slower actual BAB gain. Now normally, Magus makes up for all that easily, but it's a serious hit to a build that's based on getting as many critical attempts as possible. By 16th level, a Magus has 4. A TWF Lore Warden has 7. Even by 6th, we're talking 2 for the Magus to 4 for the Lore Warden.
It's by no means insurmountable, but it's not quite optimal.
Not a bad added trick for a Kensai magus, who is already focused on melee anyway. Might be even better for a Warpriest though. The Kensai was the master of self-buffing while in combat, but the Warpriest seems to have overtaken them.
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They each have their strong points.
I believe the magus is a strong option with minimal investment, and can be more well rounded, given his two strong saves, strong burst AC with shield/mirror image, spell-casting ability, and tons of extra money (due to not having to enchant two primary weapons).
Later access to Critical Focus does hurt, though.
I guess it depends on how much you want to focus on it. The lore warden its still a fighter, with all the problems that entails. At least adding dirty trick or trip prevents him from being A one-trick pony in combat, even he's still marginalized outside of combat.
7 attacks seems overkill when you can only give out one critical per target attacked, given the massive investment in dexterity and feats, and the severity of the diminishing returns on the TWF chain You also still have the standard fighter problem of getting in melee long enough to get your full attack off (in addition to ask the other fighter, which the magus can do more reliably without help from others.
It also seems worth noting that four attacks with power attack and a strength focus on the lore warden would've likely dropped the target without the need for all this setup, especially since the followup is ...another THF with power attack. Who needs to crit at that point?
If you can use Inner Sea World Guide, the bard/magus spell Bladed Dash is a standard-action spell that lets you move 30' (with no AOOs) and make an attack at any point with an Int/Cha bonus to hit. It's really great for getting full attacks.
Are there any ways to base a ki pool off Int? You could get an optional extra attack there. Depending on point buy, it might be worthwhile anyway.
A Magus4/Ninja2 gets wakizashi free and could nova 4 attacks, all at highest bonus:
Bladed Dash Or Spellstrike Attack/Hasted Attack/First Iterative, Ki Pool Attack (if necessary; you'd only use it at the end if you hadn't already crit)
4 is kind of a sweet spot for Magus, and I wouldn't take more levels than that unless I was going to stay in magus for the rest of my career[1]. You could do two more levels of ninja without losing base attack, or switch to fighter for feats, or paladin because paladins are awesome, or lose your mind and sneak into Arcane Trickster for no reason at all (don't do it).
[1] Well... six levels for Broad Study and you could be Magus 6/Ninja2/OracleX...
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I have a Sylph Dervish Dancer Archetype Bard that will be going with this set up for when I play him. This is for PFS, so it may be a tad fun, but may take a while for me to build up.
STR: 11
DEX: 16
CON: 10
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 16
1st Feat: Weapon Finesse
2nd Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
3rd Feat: Combat Expertise
4th Feat: Butterfly's Sting
5th Feat: Improved Critical(Kukri)
He'll take some time to build, but while waiting for the improved critical feat, he'll have dual Keen Kukri. Also, he'll have 3 different blades; Cold Iron, Adamantine, and Viridium(Yay, for being an outsider!) with a possibility to get Mithral for those pesky Werebeasts....
What are your thoughts about a halfling rogue knifefighter FLAB?
First level as swashbuckler(mouser) to get proficiency with kukri, weapon finesse and panache and for some flanking goodness. After that rogue, dualwielding kukri with d8's for sneak attack.
1: Feat Combat Expertise
3: Feat Butterfly's Sting
3: Talent: Combat Trick: Twoweapon fighting
5: Talent: Weapon Training - Kukri
5: Feat: Gangup
Starting stats:
STR: 10
DEX: 19
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 13
Traits: anatomist + adoptive + warrior of old
EDIT: Darn, Kukri are slashing, not piercing! So that one level dip of swashbuckler to get finesse does not work. Might still be worth it though for the flanking goodness that mouser brings.
What about this feat progression (depends on GM allowing slashing grace for light weapons)
Swashbuckler 1 / Rogue 4
1 (Swashbuckler): Feat Twoweapon fighting
3: Talent: Weapon Training - Kukri
3: Feat: Slashing Grace
5: Talent: Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
5: Feat: Butterfly Sting
Takes a bit longer to get online
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I'm not usually one for theorycraft builds, but I've been kicking around the idea of a pair of characters built around the Butterfly Sting feat. The basic idea is that you have two characters. "Float Like a Butterfly" ("FLAB") TWFs high-threat weapons like kukris, using Butterfly Sting to set up autocrits for "Sting Like a Bee" ("SLAB"), who 2Hs a x4 crit weapon.
The basic shtick is pretty simple, but takes a few levels to set up. There are a lot of different ways to get multiplying adds on SLAB, plus possible teamwork feat synergies.
SLAB is the easier of the two to build. Almost any basic high-damage 2H build works fine. A barbarian chassis gets damage adds from rage; a fighter gets them from Weapon Specialization and weapon training; a slayer gets them from favored target. I'm leaning toward slayer because of sneak attack (although it doesn't get multiplied, SLAB should be flanking with FLAB quite often). Race is anything with a STR bonus and a racial SLA to qualify for Arcane Strike (which gets multiplied on crits).
FLAB is a bit trickier. FLAB needs at a minimum TWF, Combat Expertise, and Butterfly Sting. As soon as he can get it, he also wants Improved Critical and probably Critical Focus. But what class? Since he's going to be flanking with SLAB as often as possible, sneak attack classes are attractive, but full BAB classes are also attractive. Less conventionally, a bard could be a decent option for FLAB because he can give SLAB adds from things like inspire courage and good hope, all of which get multiplied on crits.
What does the hive mind think?
I'm curious if it's going to be you are your significant other as the heavy hitter in this combo.
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I've found rouges to be great butterflys. A knife master rouge can go crit fishing with kukris and hopefully sneak attack for d8's. Then pass off the crit to the barbar.
Another option (less rouge due to BAB requirement) is to get improved critical and dozens of kukris made of a fragile material (cheap). There's a feat that lets you give a fragile weapon the broken condition to automatically confirm a crit when you threaten. Put those with quickdraw and you're looking at a lot of crits.
TWF is an obvious help to both builds.