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The following is a creative interpretation of the rules that if legal would allow the Rogue to be very broken. Since that contradicts the general rule of "F--- rogues!" the follow is probably not rules legal.
First a Rogue needs to take skill mastery in UMD so that they can take 10 on the check.
The following depends on the Rogue emulating a class feature (check minus 20). At level ten with skill focus and 10 cha, a rogue can take 29 on UMD checks, which translates to emulating 9th level or lower class features.
1. Druid's Vestment This item allows the wearer an additional use of wildshape. A rogue would emulate the class feature wildshape to gain one use of druid wildshape once per day. Allowing the rogue to turn into an air elemental for 9 hours per day at level 10.
2. Sash of the War Champion This item allows the wearer to treat their fighter level as 4 higher for armor training and bravery class features. The rogue emulates 9th level armor training and bravery class features to gain the benefits of 13th level armor training and bravery class features. Which would be a +4 vs fear effects and a -3 reduction on armor check penalty with a +3 increase to maximum dex bonus on armor. Now a rogue can use a chain shirt.
3. Gloves of Dueling This item increases the wearers weapon training bonus by 2. A rogue can emulate having the weapon training class features, but do to the wording of the item, I would say that the rogue only increases their weapon training bonus of +0 by 2. Another interpretation would be increases and granting the emulated bonus which at this level would be a total of +4 to hit and damage.
Skill Mastery can't be applied to UMD, it only allows you to take 10 when you normally couldn't due to combat or distractions. UMD just inherently doesn't allow take 10.
Sash of the War Champion doesn't give you armor training or bravery, it only enhances them if you have them. Same for Druid's vestment.
Skill Mastery can't be applied to UMD, it only allows you to take 10 when you normally couldn't due to combat or distractions. UMD just inherently doesn't allow take 10.
Well this is false and we aren't going to discuss such absurdities here. Please go to the rules forum to talk about how abilities don't do what they say they do. I will be flagging any further discussion on this topic.
As for the other critiques, they are valid interpretations, but as the original post states, IF you interpret the rules a particular way you could allow the rogue to have some nice things. (heaven forbid!) For people looking to buff the rogue but still hesitant to implement houserules, these interpretations may be a potential treatment to the problem.
Skill Mastery can't be applied to UMD, it only allows you to take 10 when you normally couldn't due to combat or distractions. UMD just inherently doesn't allow take 10.Well this is false and we aren't going to discuss such absurdities here. Please go to the rules forum to talk about how abilities don't do what they say they do. I will be flagging any further discussion on this topic.
As for the other critiques, they are valid interpretations, but as the original post states, IF you interpret the rules a particular way you could allow the rogue to have some nice things. (heaven forbid!) For people looking to buff the rogue but still hesitant to implement houserules, these interpretations may be a potential treatment to the problem.
I have PMed you about the aforementioned topic since you are so adverse to it. It does seem you have a strong dog in the fight despite the majority of posters having the opposing opinion in this recent thread.
The other interpretations would essentially be hourse rules as a correct understanding of the rules does not allow it to function.
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The other interpretations would essentially be hourse rules as a correct understanding of the rules does not allow it to function.
Not exactly.
Take druid's vestment. It gives you an additional use of wildshape. Well that additional use would be a use of whatever wildshape class feature you are emulating. You have 0 uses of wildshape. An additional use would give you 1, and that use would be of the class feature you emulated, since the item would be treating you as having that class feature.
Sash of the War Champion works differently. You have to emulate both bravery and armor training separately. The item then gives you benefit of those features as if you were 4 levels higher, which would give you the total bonus.
The other interpretations would essentially be hourse rules as a correct understanding of the rules does not allow it to function.Not exactly.
Take druid's vestment. It gives you an additional use of wildshape. Well that additional use would be a use of whatever wildshape class feature you are emulating. You have 0 uses of wildshape. An additional use would give you 1, and that use would be of the class feature you emulated, since the item would be treating you as having that class feature.
Sash of the War Champion works differently. You have to emulate both bravery and armor training separately. The item then gives you benefit of those features as if you were 4 levels higher, which would give you the total bonus.
The druid one is a stretch, but acceptable if we are pusshing the limits of the rules. The Sash isn't. When you emulate the fighter, you don't have a fighter level. You are adding 4 to 0, so at best you would get the abilities of a level 4 fighter IMO.
The druid one is a stretch, but acceptable if we are pusshing the limits of the rules. The Sash isn't. When you emulate the fighter, you don't have a fighter level. You are adding 4 to 0, so at best you would get the abilities of a level 4 fighter IMO.The other interpretations would essentially be hourse rules as a correct understanding of the rules does not allow it to function.Not exactly.
Take druid's vestment. It gives you an additional use of wildshape. Well that additional use would be a use of whatever wildshape class feature you are emulating. You have 0 uses of wildshape. An additional use would give you 1, and that use would be of the class feature you emulated, since the item would be treating you as having that class feature.
Sash of the War Champion works differently. You have to emulate both bravery and armor training separately. The item then gives you benefit of those features as if you were 4 levels higher, which would give you the total bonus.
That would still be nice.
I would see it as the sash gives you the abilities 4 levels higher than what you are emulating.
UMD doesn't give you abilities. It allows you to use items as though you had the abilitiy if items require it for activation.
UMD doesn't give you abilities. It allows you to use items as though you had the abilitiy if items require it for activation.
Yes. It is the item that is granting the ability based off the class features it thinks you have when you activated it.
If you don't have the actual class features though, it has nothing to modify
Adopting this would clearly be a house rule that UMD's emulate class ability actually gives you the ability that you are emulating. It would dramatically change that skill. While this would benefit the rogue, it would probably benefit other classes even more.
Without a house rule changing how UMD works, what you are describing simply doesn't work that way. Druid's vestment lets you use the wild shape abilities you already have one more time. A rogue that emulates having wildshape to activate a vestment is now able to wildshape as well as he can (which is to say not at all) one more time a day. Similarly with gloves of dueling his weapon training would have a bonus of two higher, but without actually having weapon training, he doesn't have any ability that lets him apply a weapon training bonus to attack and damage.
UMD is still a pretty cool skill, but it simply doesn't do what you think it does.
If you don't have the actual class features though, it has nothing to modify
So you are saying that you can't activate the item because you don't have the class feature?
That seems to contradict the idea of being able to emulate a class feature to activate an item.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
Druid's vestment lets you use the wild shape abilities you already have one more time. A rogue that emulates having wildshape to activate a vestment is now able to wildshape as well as he can (which is to say not at all) one more time a day.
The item says it grants you one more use of your wildshape class feature. You can emulate having the class feature, so it gives you one use of the wildshape class feature you emulated. Bringing you from zero uses to 1.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
If you don't have the actual class features though, it has nothing to modifySo you are saying that you can't activate the item because you don't have the class feature?
That seems to contradict the idea of being able to emulate a class feature to activate an item.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
In 3.5, consider what it did as an example:
It let you activate the chalice as if had a turn attempt used on it or open the door as if.So the Druid having 1 with Vest use after emulating makes sense.
Update:
Here is how my GM is going to run this.
1. Druid's Vestment trick works.
2. He rules that you trick the sash into thinking you have these abilities, the sash then increases your effective fighter level by 4 from 0. So that translates into only a +1 bravery bonus, and the first armor training.
3. He rules that gloves of dueling increase your actual weapon training bonus of +0 by 2.
CLARIFICATION: He thinks the other interpretations could work, but he finds getting half of the fighter's class features with 5000 gold to be silly. He thinks you can also say that none of these tricks work, but he's really annoyed how the rules seem to go out of their way to screw over the rogue, so he is not inclined to go with that kind of interpretation.
The way you're treating it is similar to Natural Armor rules, which say
"A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0."
I don't think that's how it works for abilities, just like how I don't think someone can take Improved Natural Armor without at least +1, even though they technically have Natural Armor +0.
If your DM allows it though, no need to fuss over it. Go forth and be a spell-less druid.
Edit: Some reasoning. Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. I don't think the Druid's Vestment has an activated ability.
The way you're treating it is similar to Natural Armor rules, which say
"A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0."I don't think that's how it works for abilities, just like how I don't think someone can take Improved Natural Armor without at least +1, even though they technically have Natural Armor +0.
If your DM allows it though, no need to fuss over it. Go forth and be a spell-less druid.
Edit: Some reasoning. Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. I don't think the Druid's Vestment has an activated ability.
I see it as you emulate the druid ability to activate the items passive effect. Without the ability the item doesn't activate.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
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Update:
Here is how my GM is going to run this.
1. Druid's Vestment trick works.
2. He rules that you trick the sash into thinking you have these abilities, the sash then increases your effective fighter level by 4 from 0. So that translates into only a +1 bravery bonus, and the first armor training.
3. He rules that gloves of dueling increase your actual weapon training bonus of +0 by 2.
CLARIFICATION: He thinks the other interpretations could work, but he finds getting half of the fighter's class features with 5000 gold to be silly. He thinks you can also say that none of these tricks work, but he's really annoyed how the rules seem to go out of their way to screw over the rogue, so he is not inclined to go with that kind of interpretation.
why not just dip 3 levels into weapon master fighter? you would have weapon training 2 base with the vest and then +2 more from the gloves.
seems like these shenanigans are a bit unnecessary.
The Use Magic Device skill does specifically say that it does not allow you to use the features of another class. That seems pretty clear cut to me. However the very next sentence does say that you can activate the item as if you had the class feature.
Seems like those tricks mentioned above should not work. Tricking an item into thinking you are a member of another class is for items like the holy avenger, which works better in the hands of a paladin but doesn't grant any specific bonus to paladin class features.
Granting new class abilities with Use Magic Device is beyond the purview of that skill alone. I cannot see another way to interpret this.
The Use Magic Device skill does specifically say that it does not allow you to use the features of another class. That seems pretty clear cut to me. However the very next sentence does say that you can activate the item as if you had the class feature.
Seems like those tricks mentioned above should not work. Tricking an item into thinking you are a member of another class is for items like the holy avenger, which works better in the hands of a paladin but doesn't grant any specific bonus to paladin class features.
Granting new class abilities with Use Magic Device is beyond the purview of that skill alone.
You're not using the abilities with the skill. You are using the abilities with the item.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
Update:
Here is how my GM is going to run this.
1. Druid's Vestment trick works.
2. He rules that you trick the sash into thinking you have these abilities, the sash then increases your effective fighter level by 4 from 0. So that translates into only a +1 bravery bonus, and the first armor training.
3. He rules that gloves of dueling increase your actual weapon training bonus of +0 by 2.
CLARIFICATION: He thinks the other interpretations could work, but he finds getting half of the fighter's class features with 5000 gold to be silly. He thinks you can also say that none of these tricks work, but he's really annoyed how the rules seem to go out of their way to screw over the rogue, so he is not inclined to go with that kind of interpretation.
why not just dip 3 levels into weapon master fighter? you would have weapon training 2 base with the vest and then +2 more from the gloves.
seems like these shenanigans are a bit unnecessary.
Then you lose 3 levels of rogue.
The Use Magic Device skill does specifically say that it does not allow you to use the features of another class. That seems pretty clear cut to me. However, the very sentence does say that you can activate the item as if you had the class feature.
Seems like those tricks mentioned above should not work. Tricking an item into thinking you are a member of another class is for items like the holy avenger, which works better in the hands of a paladin but doesn't grant any specific bonus to paladin class features.
Granting new class abilities with Use Magic Device is beyond the purview of that skill alone.You're not using the abilities with the skill. You are using the abilities with the item.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
Now you're splitting hairs. Skill says you cant use it to use a class feature of another class. What you are saying is "Skill lets you emulate class ability to activate item, item lets you use class feature. Therefore skill can let you use class features". A logical conclusion, if A, then B, then C.
Exxcept there is a clause in the description of the skill that says, essentially; if A, then B, but no C. No C. The description of Use Magic Device says you can't use the skill to use class features of another class.
I applaud your creative use of Use Magic Device however, and your staunch position that others interpretations are just as valid as your own. However, the wording of the rules does not support your conclusion.
Explain to me where you are getting wild shape. Emulate class feature says " This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." No wild shape there. Druids Vestment says "When this item is worn by a character with the wild shape ability, the character can use that ability one additional time each day." Doesn't give any ability to change into an animal.
Neither give you wild shape. The Emulate class feature lets you fool the vestment into thinking you have it, the robe lets you use your ability one more time, but neither give you the ability in the first place. Thus, you can, once more time a day, not change shape at all. Use Magic Device is indeed useless with a Druid's Vestment.
Your game is your game, and you can have this be a house rule if you like. But understand that by the rules this is the only viable interpretation and most groups won't accept your rules.
The Use Magic Device skill does specifically say that it does not allow you to use the features of another class. That seems pretty clear cut to me. However, the very sentence does say that you can activate the item as if you had the class feature.
Seems like those tricks mentioned above should not work. Tricking an item into thinking you are a member of another class is for items like the holy avenger, which works better in the hands of a paladin but doesn't grant any specific bonus to paladin class features.
Granting new class abilities with Use Magic Device is beyond the purview of that skill alone.You're not using the abilities with the skill. You are using the abilities with the item.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
Now you're splitting hairs. Skill says you cant use it to use a class feature of another class. What you are saying is "Skill lets you emulate class ability to activate item, item lets you use class feature. Therefore skill can let you use class features". A logical conclusion, if A, then B, then C.
Once again. The skill does not let you use the class feature, the item does. You can say the trick does not work, but it would not be for that reason.
Explain to me where you are getting wild shape. Emulate class feature says " This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." No wild shape there. Druids Vestment says "When this item is worn by a character with the wild shape ability, the character can use that ability one additional time each day." Doesn't give any ability to change into an animal.
Neither give you wild shape. The Emulate class feature lets you fool the vestment into thinking you have it, the robe lets you use your ability one more time, but neither give you the ability in the first place. Thus, you can, once more time a day, not change shape at all. Use Magic Device is indeed useless with a Druid's Vestment.
Druid's vestment grants an additional use of the wildshape class feature you are emulating. It does this because you activated the item as though you had the class feature.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
Emulating a class feature does not give you that class feature.
Agreed. I don't understand why people are thinking I am saying this.
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Emulating a class feature does not give you that class feature.
Let's look at another example that would work if your interpretation was correct.
A phylactery of positive channeling adds +2d6 to your channel energy. According to you, I could emulate the cleric's ability to channel energy, then use a phylactery to add 2d6 to that. This would allow a non-cleric to channel for 2d6.
No that item does not grant uses of channel energy. Your channel positive energy amount is increased by 2d6, but you don't have any uses of channel energy to make use of that.
The wording of that item is very different than the ones I am referencing.
I don't think people understand the distinction your making.
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this is obviously a dead thread. as per umd:
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.
a few things here.
it does not give you an effective class level just the feature. so level 0 druid can wild shape to turn into about 0 things.
while rogues may need a buff changing the way a skill works would buff all classes that choose to take umd as a class skill (dangerously curious)
the other fighter items i don't have a problem with. as per the rules they should work just fine. and your dm has ruled correctly saying you have 0 levels of fighter for that purpose. why did he change his own ruling when it comes to wildshape and INCREDIBLY powerful class feature that makes weapon and armor training look insignificant.
by your interpretation by level 8 you can wildshape for most of an adventuring day and by level 12 half a day. that is just ridiculous.
if you are homebrewing rules why not just take craft wonderous item and create an item that allows you to wildshape as a druid or your level once per day. consider the cost of such an item. a polymorph shirt that could be used 1/day for 12 minutes (not hours) would still cost 24000 gold. that is just to give perspective on what you are trying to do.
but of course to all of this you could simply say
"Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation."
it doesnt make you right it just makes you sound less indignant.
this is obviously a dead thread. as per umd:
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.a few things here.
it does not give you an effective class level just the feature. so level 0 druid can wild shape to turn into about 0 things.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
As for the other critiques, they are valid interpretations, but as the original post states, IF you interpret the rules a particular way you could allow the rogue to have some nice things. (heaven forbid!) For people looking to buff the rogue but still hesitant to implement houserules, these interpretations may be a potential treatment to the problem.Rouges can actually have nice things without cheesing the rules. First step is abandoning the prejudgement that they fail before they even start.
Maybe once you get into mythics...
I will admit, this is a cheesing of the rules, but it is legal, provided certain interpretations of mechanics that are not explicitly outlined.
Also, when was the last time you heard of Rogue cheese?
I don't think people understand the distinction your making.
Perhaps. Another way to say it: The item is doing all the work. UMD just let's you convince the item to do work.
No sane DM would ever let someone bring this kind of munchkining to the table. You do realize that this kind of rulebending still doesn't make rogues as good as any other classes right? In fact, you've just opened the flood gates for other classes to take advantage of your creative interpretations of poorly written rules.
No sane DM would ever let someone bring this kind of munchkining to the table. You do realize that this kind of rulebending still doesn't make rogues as good as any other classes right? In fact, you've just opened the flood gates for other classes to take advantage of your creative interpretations of poorly written rules.
Not really. The ability to take 10 on UMD is very rare. As far as I know, only rogues, ninjas, and bards could ever do it. Bards wait until very late game to ever do it, and ninjas may be busy with their other advance tricks or would rather have crippling strike as their one advance rogue talent.
EDIT: Also my GM is very sane.
Because in order to get +1 uses of Wild Shape, you first have to have uses of Wild Shape. A level 3 druid does not have uses of Wild Shape because they get it at level 4. A rogue does not have uses of Wild Shape because it is not one of their class features. Emulating a class feature through UMD does not give you that class feature, so it does not give you uses of that class feature, and you can't add +1 uses to it with the magic item.Emulating a class feature does not give you that class feature.Agreed. I don't understand why people are thinking I am saying this.
I see it as plus 1 to 0 of the level emulated. The item is giving you the use not UMD.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
You're interpretation is not even a semi-viable explanation. No matter how many times you say "I'm right" and don't give any evidence as to why, you are still wrong.Because in order to get +1 uses of Wild Shape, you first have to have uses of Wild Shape. A level 3 druid does not have uses of Wild Shape because they get it at level 4. A rogue does not have uses of Wild Shape because it is not one of their class features. Emulating a class feature through UMD does not give you that class feature, so it does not give you uses of that class feature, and you can't add +1 uses to it with the magic item.Emulating a class feature does not give you that class feature.Agreed. I don't understand why people are thinking I am saying this.I see it as plus 1 to 0 of the level emulated. The item is giving you the use not UMD.
Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation.
You are saying the the item grants a use of wildshape, but that you still can't use it. My GM and I see that as a contradiction and that is why such an interpretation is not ran in our games.
Also, you can never take 10 on UMD. The rogue ability you are referring to says it allows you to take 10 when you normally wouldn't be able to due to stress or distraction. It is not stress or distraction that prevents you from taking 10 on UMD, it is the skill itself. Skill Mastery does not change this.
This has been mentioned before, and we will not be discussing that here. Your post has been flagged.
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If your only response to the glaring holes in this abuse of UMD is "Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation", then why put this in advice? It's not legal and if you want to use this as a house rule that's fine, move the thread to the house rules forum.
RAW that's not the way skill mastery or UMD works.
I am saying that the item grants a use of Wild Shape to a character that already has uses of Wild Shape. A rogue emulating the Wild Shape class feature through UMD does not have uses of UMD. Its uses aren't ), they are -. Do you see the distinction?
The item grants a use of wildshape, if it thinks you have wildshape. It grants an extra use of the wildshape it thinks you have.
You emulate the class feature, the item then grants you a use. You then say that you can't use that use. This is a contradiction to me and my GM and that is why your interpretation is not ran in our games.
If your only response to the glaring holes in this abuse of UMD is "Your interpretation isn't wrong, but it is not the only viable interpretation", then why put this in advice? It's not legal and if you want to use this as a house rule that's fine, move the thread to the house rules forum.
RAW that's not the way skill mastery or UMD works.
We are not discussing whether or not skillmastery does what it says it does. Please go to the rules forum for such nonsense. As stated earlier all post that mention this topic will be flagged.
These tricks with UMD can be legal, they don't have to be legal. But I will argue that saying they can't be legal is wrong. Nothing here has anything to do with house-rules.
If you're going to flag every post that blows holes in your argument, maybe you would be better off buying a second mobile device and just texting yourself. You don't get to decide what is and is not talked about just because you created the thread. Numerous people have pointed out mumtiple flaws in your argument. If your DM wants to let you get away with this, then more power to you.
Also, I've flagged this entire thread to be moved to the House Rules forum since that's what it obviously is.
I have no interest in derailing this thread to talk about a subject that I will not budge on and have talked about extensively in a rules-forum thread that has been linked to in this thread.
This current topic I am less certain about, but I have yet to see a solid argument for why these tricks CAN'T work. I have only seen reasons why they don't have to work.
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Didn't we already go through all of this with the Ring of Revelation stuff?
"Use Magic Device will let you trick an item into thinking you're a different class... but it does not grant the POWERS of that class." - what JJ said on it.
RE: taking 10 on UMD - can also do it with a 1-level dip as a Pathfinder Savant.
-TimD
Edited to address taking 10 on UMD.
The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.
You cannot take 10 with this skill.
Skill Mastery allows you to take 10 when stress and distraction would prevent it. UMD as a skill does not allow taking 10, so Skill Mastery will not override this requirement.
The problem with this is (if you allow this,cause its not RAW) other classes will benefit far more. I could see a Paladin or Sorcerer with a trait to give UMD as a class skill really abusing things.