Hi forums. This question comes up as I am running WotR right now and my PCs are going through the start of book 3.
So far all of these fights are laughably easy. I know how to ramp encounters up and make them more challenging and I can do it. But I am curious if periods of ease are common in APs as this is the only AP that I have run.
Or if this is an issue of mythic play and the writers being forced to guess on what might be challenging.
Well, as someone who has run three AP's to completion already (although with 5-6 players, so above the expected parameters. I have adjusted encounters accordingly, though), I can say that until the group hits about level 9-10, things are normally quite tough. After that... not so much, since the balancing is, IMO, quite off for high-level combat and CR appropiate monsters scale very badly with what player characters with access to magic item crafting will have access to.
Wrath is probably very much even more exaggerated, though, due to the very new mythic rules. Paizo has had a history of new sub-systems having, errr, a few flaws. To say the least.
The APs assume a relatively low baseline for your party (four 15 pt characters, with players who are new to Pathfinder or aren't heavy optimizers). They're designed to be completable by casual players. Higher level chapters often weirder and/or larger scale than earlier chapters, but they usually aren't harder. There can be some interesting exceptions, though.
If anything, APs are harder are lower levels simply because low level characters kind of die the moment something goes wrong. A higher level party is much better able to cope with status effects, bad die rolls, etc.
If your party doesn't fit the profile that APs are designed for, there's a few ways to adjust, including -
1) Set the XP to slow progression (or ignore XP altogether, simply awarding levels when the adventure notes people should've reached the next level) and ramp up encounters. If you have the time to do this, this can be pretty rewarding.
2) Set the XP to slow progression and don't ramp up encounters. The campaign difficulty will self-correct as the party falls a level behind the expected curve, making every fight harder by default.
I've done the former, and I've experienced both. They work.
I would consider my group closer to the norm than others. I have 4 PCs. they were built with 20 pts (I know, higher than recommended)but they have no dump stats or over specialization. They are lvl 9, mythic tier 3 and the highest stat in the group is 24.
My curiosity stems from the multitude of CR 10 and 11 fights which I find boring as written. I guess that I am sharing the same doubts that Magnuskn has about mythic play even though I consider my group much weaker than his.
One issue with the APs is that the "hard" bits are often so hard that people handwave it away. As written the end of book 1 of Reign of Winter should be absurdly difficult.
Sorry not the end, more like the halfway point.
I really miss how hard some of the encounter use to be.
Rise of the Runelords had some great extremely hard encounters.
I ramp up everything
Seriously nowadays we get way more OMG Encounter X is a TPK threads than the game is too easy ones. Wouldn't be surprised if has affected the design process over time.
Also to the OP:
Difficulty is often in the details that are easily overlooked. The example I called out earlier has the party in conditions where pretty much anyone except very specific builds wouldn't be able to see more than 5ft due to a raging blizzard. Based on the GM thread of that nook not very many noticed that condition as it was in a paragraph separated from the actual encounter write up. Also Xanthir Vang in your current book technically can't be affected by many abilities including smite evil.
Creative Director
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We don't aim to have encoutners get nothing but OMG Encounter X is a TPK. We aim to have encounters, overall, get as many of those responses as we get "That encounter was a cakewalk."
No one game group is identical, but every one adventure we publish IS identical, so each game group is going to have different experiences. We aim to build the encounters along the "average" builds as detailed in the Core Rulebook, so it's less work to toughen up or simplify them as appropriate for your game group.
We don't aim to have encoutners get nothing but OMG Encounter X is a TPK. We aim to have encounters, overall, get as many of those responses as we get "That encounter was a cakewalk."
No one game group is identical, but every one adventure we publish IS identical, so each game group is going to have different experiences. We aim to build the encounters along the "average" builds as detailed in the Core Rulebook, so it's less work to toughen up or simplify them as appropriate for your game group.
Right. My comment wasn't intended to malign the design process or anything, it was more of a commentary of the average playerbase. I think GMs with players that make straightforward strategies and choices that are able to handle most encounters are actually ABOVE average.
Average as I have seen it involve terrible but in character choices such as the cleric refusing to heal certain characters or splitting up the party to search an area.
This is also why I am asking about past history with APs as I am not familiar with them. Its why I am curious if it is design or mythicness that makes it seem this way.
Maybe its the exploration angle and the openness of Demon's Heresy that prevents the slow rise of encounter level. But most of these encounters are listed as CR 10 and 11 for PCs starting at an APL of 10.5.
In part, it doesn't matter as all of my PCs are loving this AP and are having fun so success there! But I am having less fun running it as this stage is not challenging for them.
Another simple fix to make fights harder - if the party is fighting in hostile territory where reinforcements should be reasonably handy, roll on the random encounter table for the round two reinforcements. I.e., combat draws attention.
This won't always fit with a location, but it can work great when it does.
Also remember that not every fight in an AP has to be life or death for the PCs. They should steam roll over some of the encounters. It's fun for the PCs and lures them into a false sense of security.
This is true, but an important sense of a decent combat is that it should deplete PC resources in some matter. If they're steamrolling because they're using a bunch of buffs before hand and spells during battle, that's fine. Maybe they're not taking HP damage, but they're using the resources of their limited class abilities. Eventually they should still get to a point where a fair CR combat will be a bit harder because they've used those resources earlier.
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If your party doesn't fit the profile that APs are designed for, there's a few ways to adjust, including -1) Set the XP to slow progression (or ignore XP altogether, simply awarding levels when the adventure notes people should've reached the next level) and ramp up encounters. If you have the time to do this, this can be pretty rewarding.
2) Set the XP to slow progression and don't ramp up encounters. The campaign difficulty will self-correct as the party falls a level behind the expected curve, making every fight harder by default.
The way I prefer is based upon both of these. Throw away XP, but level the characters up when things start to get too difficult as opposed to when the book says so. Zero bookkeeping, doesn't involve any extra work to tweak encounters, and keeps the characters constantly challenged as much as you want them to be.
Question for the OP - are you making sure the party has 4-5 encounters before they are allowed to rest?
The AP's are written with the idea that you follow the guidelines for encounters - meaning some of the encounters are 'easy' but the intention is to make the party use up some of it's resources with each one - making sure they can't 'go nuclear' for every encounter.
If there is a big boss - making sure the party has had several fights before the big boss is one sure way to make sure they aren't walking into a 'easy' fight. This is just my view on it though - Timekeeping is one of the most difficult jobs for most GM's - and due to video games it's easy to forget the challenge of an 'at level' encounter is that after several of them your group is running low on spells/abilities per day/etc.
I'm curious if there has been any change in design philosophy after the transition from Dungeon and Dragon as far as difficulty. The pre-PF APs. (Age of Worms,Savage Tide), were really hard, much more so than the current ones, to the point that it felt like a major achievment to get to the end, let alone survive triumphant. I'm not saying the current APS don't do this, but the difficulty of AoW was what made it so memorable.
Yes, I do agree that not every fight has to be a fight for their lives where it all depends on a die roll. Those are more memorable but there should be easier encounters.
I don't pay that much attention to XP, just enough to ensure the party is in line with the suggested leveling. In some campaigns I have done away with XP and leveled up PCs after accomplishments. It works out about the same.
@Ckorik: Specifically this is during an exploration phase so there is usually only one encounter per day, sometimes two. Maybe that should be the real question: how to make exploration more challenging or interesting?
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Creative Director
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I'm curious if there has been any change in design philosophy after the transition from Dungeon and Dragon as far as difficulty. The pre-PF APs. (Age of Worms,Savage Tide), were really hard, much more so than the current ones, to the point that it felt like a major achievment to get to the end, let alone survive triumphant. I'm not saying the current APS don't do this, but the difficulty of AoW was what made it so memorable.
Not really all that much of a chance in design philosophy, no. My guess is that what you're noticing is that you and your friends are just getting better at playing the game! :-)
Our group has been playing Jade Reagent and Carrion Crown. There are three players and the GM, and we generally use 20 pt buy, and what I would describe as a medium level of optimization.
I find most of the regular encounters are well balanced, but it seems some of the boss monsters are just brutal.
The really demoralizing TPK was the ghost cleric at the end of book 3. The smite good basically shut down the fighter, the sorcerer couldn't affect it with any spells due to SR and resistances, and my cleric could do little more then a few single digits of damage here and there.
Having read about some of the carrion crown boss encounters, there seems to be a big divide between the groups with gunslingers, paladins and a few other specific PC types and what I would describe as "normal parties".
Perhaps it would be worth including a side bar for some of the boss monsters noting what types of PCs will be very effective or not effective, and a quick note of how to change the encounter accordingly.
Having ran savage tide, coct (3.5) and halfway through CC and JR + a handful of modules I generally find the difficulty level is just right for my group (competent characters but generally not OP). The most common tweak I do to encounters is to add cannon fodder so the enemy casters aren't overwhelmed in the 1st round or double up the monsters if they're solo.
Character deaths happen, in CC I've had two so far, none in JR but we're using hero points in that one. I would guess that we probably would have at least two deaths in JR without them. I'm pretty lenient with the cheat death ability.
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I'm running Wrath against 3 Paladins and a Warpriest. I've consistently challenged them at points I wanted to, and been more than okay with them getting to show off their new mythic powers in some parts. I did replace some Brimoraks with a Brimorak flavored Flamethrower variety troop (RoW5) for some variety, surprise, and a resource drain. I have the encounters spill over into the next rooms and tend to dynamically move enemies around dungeons as it makes sense. So far, book 2 has been a great variety of challenge and player ecstacy.
I didn't kill any PCs in Council of Thieves or Kingmaker, I killed 6 in Rise of the Runelords, I've had two players go down below their con in Wrath but their mythic status saved them.
My players make characters with 15 pt buy and 2 traits.
I'm surprised that you can challenge them with 3 paladins :) That is a very powerful class for this AP. Hopefully there won't be another foe-centric AP anytime soon.
And I agree with Sword of Valor, there were several fun and challenging encounters there. Now my PCs have a few more levels and another tier and most encounters are trivial.
Guess I could try Skull and Shackles, don't think I can sell my PCs on pirates though.
The AP is as challenging as you make it, within reason.
For instance, I modified the end of part two of The Snows of Summer by making Teb the Troll Mythic Invulnerable, two levels of Fighter, and Advanced (he was going up against a six-character 5th level group), while he was reinforced by four 3rd level fighter Sprites and a 5th level Atomie Oracle.
It proved to be much easier for the group until the end because Rokhar (who was their guide) used his Cause Fear spell and Teb failed his save (thus not being able to reinforce the sprites - they were wiped out by the time Teb returned), and Teb failing a second save against Knight's Call (forcing him to approach and get attacked by a Paladin with Smite up, thus negating mythic damage reduction).
The point it stopped being a cakewalk was when Teb successfully used Great Cleave using reach against four characters and a familiar, dropping the familiar to negative hit points while dropping two of the PCs to 2/3rds hit points and two to around half. If Teb had gotten a second round of attacks, he very likely could have knocked a couple PCs into negative hit points.
The dice rolls affect things, as do tactics. If Teb had taken a simple five-foot step back, then he'd not have gotten the Druid... but would have forced people to move up to attack. If I'd given Teb the feat to increase AoO, he'd have been able to use that to his advantage when people struggle through snow to close with him.
What you need to do is look at the tactics of the group and then work within those tactics (within reason). You want the group to fear for their lives without killing most of them. When Teb hurt 2/3rds of the group with one attack sequence, it changed things. People suddenly realized the troll had to go down, no ifs, ands, or buts. And even though only a familiar was brought to negative hit points, the combat became much deadlier in their eyes.
Even if half the group is untouched in combat, if the group as a whole feels "oh damn we almost died!" then you have actually succeeded in your job as GM. You created that sense of tension and suspense that ultimately makes the game more enjoyable for everyone. And as GM, your job isn't to defeat the players. It's to lose... but in doing so make it seem like it was luck and maybe a little skill that was all that stood between their success and failure.
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I'm surprised that you can challenge them with 3 paladins :) That is a very powerful class for this AP. Hopefully there won't be another foe-centric AP anytime soon.
And I agree with Sword of Valor, there were several fun and challenging encounters there. Now my PCs have a few more levels and another tier and most encounters are trivial.
Guess I could try Skull and Shackles, don't think I can sell my PCs on pirates though.
3 of my players are as veteran as people of our age could be (31 years of experience between the 5 of us). I also have a player who has been playing for a little under a year, and this is his first AP.
I have a full Paladin of Iomedae/Marshal
a full Paladin of Ragathiel going the Oath route/vengeance / Champion path
a Paladin/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight of Erastil who uses a bow./Trickster path
A full Warpriest (beta) of Pulura /Heirophant path
They didn't have an easy time with the swarms. Single enemies are typically done in quick if I don't make full use of terrain, movement, tactics, and the occasional surprise. It's certainly challenged me to improve and adapt.
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Having read about some of the carrion crown boss encounters, there seems to be a big divide between the groups with gunslingers, paladins and a few other specific PC types and what I would describe as "normal parties".Perhaps it would be worth including a side bar for some of the boss monsters noting what types of PCs will be very effective or not effective, and a quick note of how to change the encounter accordingly.
I can honestly say, having just completed the Headless Horseman encounter in part 5 of carrion crown, that every encounter is difficult, but the boss encounters ARE brutal.
18 rounds for the Headless Horseman, 3 of the 4 pc's down or paralyzed, and the DM saying after we barely got by, "Damn, I forgot about the fast healing 5!"
This seems to be the norm for our group right now, and we have 2 very experienced players, a novice and a noob. I have found Second Darkness, Legacy of fire, and Council of thieves much easier to get by. RotRL is in between these extremes.