Scorpion Whip interworkings


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

34 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

1) Does a Scorpion Whip still count as a Light weapon when used as a Whip?

2) Does a Scorpion Whip provoke when used?

3) Does a Scorpion Whip deal lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses, when used as a Whip?

4) What is the reach of the Scorpion Whip, when used as a Whip?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. All the problems with this weapon go away if you delete "as a whip" from it's description.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Joex The Pale wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. All the problems with this weapon go away if you delete "as a whip" from it's description.

I suppose, but it's usefulness goes away as well.


Not really. It's still a light weapon that does lethal damage and threatens within 5' (not positive on that last point though). With that simple deletion, you also get a two-for-one weapon proficiency which puts it right up there again. Whip in one hand, scorpion whip in the other. You don't NEED to be a TWF to do it, as long as you don't do more attacks then your allowed per your character level. This way you have a choice of tripping/repositioning/dragging at reach or striking for lethal up close.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

The Dagger is a light weapon that does lethal damage and threatens within 5', does the same damage, but with a higher crit range, and can be thrown.

Oh, and the Dagger is a simple weapon.


I was always confused by this weapon, so I never used it. Is there any dev statement on how it is supposed to work ?

The most generous interpretation can lead to some cool builds IMO.

Grand Lodge

Indeed.

A dev comment could help.

Grand Lodge

No one has any idea about the answers to any of these questions?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

The Dagger is a light weapon that does lethal damage and threatens within 5', does the same damage, but with a higher crit range, and can be thrown.

Oh, and the Dagger is a simple weapon.

Excellent points. Ok, remove the "as a whip" part as well as reach, but leave in all the other abilities. Gives you a mini-whip you can disarm, trip, reposition, and drag with, plus light/lethal whip. This makes it a bit more useful, on par with the dagger maybe? ;)

As for your original questions, I'll put in my 2cp.

1) Yes. It's size doesn't change, and it's size determines it's category.

2) No. It isn't a reach weapon, so no provoking AoO. (see below)

3) Yes. It still has those little metal barbs that give it the lethal damage, those don't go away when it's used as a whip.

4) Ugh. This is the biggest sticking point I have with this weapon. No matter how I try, I can't wrap my brain around why it would suddenly go from a 5' weapon to a 15' weapon just because you're using it a different way. I'm going to say No.

Grand Lodge

If it isn't used as a Whip, then it doesn't have the disarm, trip, reposition, and drag qualities.

Also, you can Disarm or Trip, with any weapon, including a Dagger.

So, if it doesn't count as a Whip, or can be used as a Whip, then it is a poor excuse for a Dagger, that requires a feat to use.

Just saying.


Not as I've redesigned it. If you remove the "as a whip" from the description, then you get a free proficiency in it if you are also proficient in the whip, which I can totally justify seeing as they are almost the same weapon. Give it the whip abilities except for reach and you have a functional weapon that doesn't require an advanced theoretical physics education to figure out, as Scorpion Whip does as it stands. ;)

While you can disarm or trip with any weapon, weapons that have that specific quality grant their attack bonus to the CMB roll, which is one of the very few ways to boost CMB. Granted, a dagger is still the more optimized choice the vast majority of the time, but for players wanting to use whips, damage optimization isn't their highest priority, is it?

Grand Lodge

That is a sound redesign, but I am really just trying to figure out how it works, as is, now.


Good luck with that. Is Advanced Theoretical Physics an 8-year course or can you get it in only four? We'll miss you while you're gone. either way. ;)

Seriously, though, it's one of the most poorly designed weapons I've seen published. So many weird interactions that they just can't seem to make work. SO I decided to stop waiting and do my work-around as posted above. Actually, much of that re-design was sparked by your comments, so you get co-author credit on that. :D

Grand Lodge

Well, I very much appreciate that. Thank you.

Dark Archive

I scorpion whip latest printing in ultimate combat does not have reach in the sidebar on the chart nor the text but still says you can use it as a whip.

A 1d4 20/x2 exotic weapon. Or half/double exotic weapon, how ever you want to think of it.

I think this was one of the attempts to replicate the 3.5 spiked chain, the only weapon that threatened both reach and adjacent simultaneously. Since the Pathfinder hardcover came out, opposed to the beta test or the 3.5 world guide. Paizo seems to have arguably given up on a weapon that threatens both reach and adjacent at the same time. The kusarigama from UC and UE arguably does such but is worded in less than perfectly clear way.


Raymond Lambert wrote:

I scorpion whip latest printing in ultimate combat does not have reach in the sidebar on the chart nor the text but still says you can use it as a whip.

A 1d4 20/x2 exotic weapon. Or half/double exotic weapon, how ever you want to think of it.

I think this was one of the attempts to replicate the 3.5 spiked chain, the only weapon that threatened both reach and adjacent simultaneously. Since the Pathfinder hardcover came out, opposed to the beta test or the 3.5 world guide. Paizo seems to have arguably given up on a weapon that threatens both reach and adjacent at the same time. The kusarigama from UC and UE arguably does such but is worded in less than perfectly clear way.

Most eastern exotic weapons are worded so poorly as to be nigh unusable.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 5 people marked this as a favorite.

I just operate on the KISS principle here. It's a whip, but it does damage normally. Full stop.

Grand Lodge

Zhayne wrote:
I just operate on the KISS principle here. It's a whip, but it does damage normally. Full stop.

I wish it was that easy.

Grand Lodge

Joex The Pale wrote:

Not as I've redesigned it. If you remove the "as a whip" from the description, then you get a free proficiency in it if you are also proficient in the whip, which I can totally justify seeing as they are almost the same weapon. Give it the whip abilities except for reach and you have a functional weapon that doesn't require an advanced theoretical physics education to figure out, as Scorpion Whip does as it stands. ;)

While you can disarm or trip with any weapon, weapons that have that specific quality grant their attack bonus to the CMB roll, which is one of the very few ways to boost CMB. Granted, a dagger is still the more optimized choice the vast majority of the time, but for players wanting to use whips, damage optimization isn't their highest priority, is it?

This has been changed, by the way. All the Trip property does, now, is allow you to drop the weapon if you fail the trip attack by 10 or more, and use the drag and reposition maneuvers with the weapon.


kinevon wrote:
This has been changed, by the way. All the Trip property does, now, is allow you to drop the weapon if you fail the trip attack by 10 or more, and use the drag and reposition maneuvers with the weapon.

Awwww... That sucks. Although, it does opens the door for a new enchantment for weapons, one that allows the wielder to add the weapon's enhancement bonus to CMB...

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Joex The Pale wrote:
kinevon wrote:
This has been changed, by the way. All the Trip property does, now, is allow you to drop the weapon if you fail the trip attack by 10 or more, and use the drag and reposition maneuvers with the weapon.
Awwww... That sucks. Although, it does opens the door for a new enchantment for weapons, one that allows the wielder to add the weapon's enhancement bonus to CMB...

It already does that, if you're using the weapon to do the combat maneuver, you know. Anything that gives an attack bonus with a weapon also applies to CMB checks using that weapon.

Quote:
Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.


GAH! Confusion swirling!! Ok, I think I get it now. The trip function only protects you against counter-trips, but all CMB checks made with a weapon include all bonuses that weapon would have to attack normally. Is that right?

And BBT, I'm sorry for threadjacking you. Didn't intend to, just sort of happened. :/

Shadow Lodge

It says you wield it as a whip. Therefor, it should have all of the properties a whip has, but with more damage and can damage any amount of armor/nat. armor. Reach, Finesse, trip, etc. At least, that's how I read it.


I don't understand how when it is used as a Scorpion Whip is doesn't have reach, but when used as a whip, it does. That just makes no sense to me. Either the weapon has the length to be used at reach, or it doesn't. No other weapon does this.

Grand Lodge

Joex The Pale wrote:
I don't understand how when it is used as a Scorpion Whip is doesn't have reach, but when used as a whip, it does. That just makes no sense to me. Either the weapon has the length to be used at reach, or it doesn't. No other weapon does this.

Mundane weapons that suddenly morph, depending on how you wield them seems to be something Paizo is totally for.

Example:
The Bastard Sword.

Grand Lodge

Joex The Pale wrote:

GAH! Confusion swirling!! Ok, I think I get it now. The trip function only protects you against counter-trips, but all CMB checks made with a weapon include all bonuses that weapon would have to attack normally. Is that right?

And BBT, I'm sorry for threadjacking you. Didn't intend to, just sort of happened. :/

Pretty much. Trip weapons also allow you to use a weapon for some combat maneuvers (drag and reposition) that normally cannot be made with weapons.

And there are actually a couple of weapon enhancements that can do a variant on what you mentioned.

Dueling from the APG/UE adds a specific amount to a specific set of maneuvers.

Dueling (same name, different enhancement, different price) from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide (PSFG) adds, in addition to the weapon's normal enhancement bonus, a luck bonus equal to twice the weapon's enhancement to hit to combat maneuvers that use the weapon.

+5 Dueling (PSFG) whip? +15 to CMB to trip, disarm, sunder (won't do much without at least having Whip Mastery), drag, and reposition.


I have read it like this.
If you have weapon proff: scorpion whip you can use it as it is.
If you have both weapon proff whip and scorpion whip you can use it as either a whip or a scorpion whip.
If you have only whip you take the standart -4 when using the scorpion whip no matter how you use it.
But it is a FAQ worthy just like the kusaigama and his friends.

Grand Lodge

So, there is "whip mode", and a "scorpion whip mode"?

Grand Lodge

The Scorpion Whip apparently magically extends 5 feet when you have proficiency with the whip....

Grand Lodge

Drake Brimstone wrote:
The Scorpion Whip apparently magically extends 5 feet when you have proficiency with the whip....

As I said, transforming mundane weapons are a Pathfinder thing.

Hell, you can be banned if you question it too much.


Cap. Darling wrote:

I have read it like this.

If you have weapon proff: scorpion whip you can use it as it is.
If you have both weapon proff whip and scorpion whip you can use it as either a whip or a scorpion whip.
If you have only whip you take the standart -4 when using the scorpion whip no matter how you use it.
But it is a FAQ worthy just like the kusaigama and his friends.

Can someone explain to me, because I guess I don't get it...why is this so overpowered to do it like this?

I think we have always decided if you can use a whip, you can use a scorpion whip the same way...with reach just doing damage.

What is the issue with allowing this? I guess all that reach and the combat maneuvers? I'm thinking Lunge, Whirlwind, Enlarge Person...25 ft reach? Don't people get this done with polearms anyway and deal more damage per attack with those?

Grand Lodge

I am getting the feeling that no one really knows how this weapon works.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I am getting the feeling that no one really knows how this weapon works.

I guess not. Not willing to claim I know what I'm talking about with this. Guess I didn't realize there was such a debate over this weapon, we haven't ever really used it in any game I've played in/GMed in.

I'd be willing to listen to how it works if you honestly know.


On a side note, I've know the tip of a whip breaks the sound barrier when snapped properly, this can cut through leather at the very least, not sure why it does nothing against all armor. Don't know about anything metal. But still...clubs don't break through armor and still do damage...


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I am getting the feeling that no one really knows how this weapon works.

Nope. There are a few weapons that I don't think provide enough info to be mechanically usable at all.

Grand Lodge

This is a weapon that many Whip users look to, for other options.

I figured a FAQ of some kind would pop up by now.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Joex The Pale wrote:
I don't understand how when it is used as a Scorpion Whip is doesn't have reach, but when used as a whip, it does. That just makes no sense to me. Either the weapon has the length to be used at reach, or it doesn't. No other weapon does this.
Mundane weapons that suddenly morph, depending on how you wield them seems to be something Paizo is totally for.

Granted, I've never used that sword, so I'm not extremely familiar with it's workings, but it seems to me that it's "morphing" is that it's two-handed as a martial but one-handed as an exotic. Am I right? If so, respectfully, that's no where near as confusing as the Scorpion Whip.

If used as a SW, it merely does damage, to trip, disarm or reach. But if you use it as a whip, suddenly it can trip and disarm as well as becomes 10' longer. The two maneuvers I can kinda swallow, but there's no way it suddenly becomes longer just because you know how to use a whip. I agree, this weapon needs a FAQ. Has anyone started one yet? If so, please supply a link so we can express our desire for clarification on this confusing item.

Grand Lodge

We actually are not allowed to talk about that "other weapon".

Now, if we want to start a FAQ on the Scorpion Whip, then feel free to hit the FAQ button.


I didn't name it. Ooooo, is it now officially the Weapon That Shall Not Be Named? ;)

Grand Lodge

Joex The Pale wrote:

I didn't name it. Ooooo, is it now officially the Weapon That Shall Not Be Named? ;)

Yes.

Yes it is.


I have a dual weilding Scorpion Whip fighter with the Improved Whip Mastery Feat chain. I would really appreciate a post from the Devs on exactly how this weapon is intended to work. This way I could print it out and staple it to my character sheet everytime a GM tries to argue about it.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, there is "whip mode", and a "scorpion whip mode"?

Yep.

Just like you can use a staff both with great sword and quaterstaff skill in GURPS.
I dont know if that is what the books tell me, but that what i got from it.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

*sighs*

I just want my Mighty Whip Dagger back.

Grand Lodge

Cap. Darling wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
So, there is "whip mode", and a "scorpion whip mode"?

Yep.

Just like you can use a staff both with great sword and quaterstaff skill in GURPS.
I dont know if that is what the books tell me, but that what i got from it.

I don't play GURPS.

I also don't fully understand what you are saying.


MrRetsej wrote:

*sighs*

I just want my Mighty Whip Dagger back.

And that's how I run it at home.


I fail to see the issue, though I haven't looked at it particularly closely.

nothing says the whip grows longer, it says it gains reach, I read this as, people who don't know how to use a whip, can not use the weapon well enough to take advantage of the extra reach it has.

picture the crack of the whip from someone who can use it and someone flopping it uselessly against your face in a gentle wet noodle like caress.

I guess I just don't understand where all the confusion is coming from.

Grand Lodge

Talcrion wrote:

I fail to see the issue, though I haven't looked at it particularly closely.

nothing says the whip grows longer, it says it gains reach, I read this as, people who don't know how to use a whip, can not use the weapon well enough to take advantage of the extra reach it has.

picture the crack of the whip from someone who can use it and someone flopping it uselessly against your face in a gentle wet noodle like caress.

I guess I just don't understand where all the confusion is coming from.

See the original post.


I think the problem at Paizo is they feel they need to make the weapon worth getting, but not so good that nobody would ever get a normal whip.

Frankly I don't mind if the scorpion whip is better than a normal whip because a normal whip is not intended to be used in ordinary combat. Besides, I want there to be room for bad guys like the ones in the movie The Rundown.

The way I am running them for the moment in the game I run is that they have the same basic properties as whips - they have a 15-foot pseudo reach, but do not threaten, and provoke when used in a threatened space. The only deal is they do lethal damage, but when they do they do not have the trip and disarm properties. When the trip and disarm properties are used ("as a normal whip") it does not do lethal damage.

Does anyone see any problems this might cause? One of my players is thinking of using these.

Peet

Grand Lodge

Well, how is intending to use it?


Not totally sure... he is not a great optimizer but may want it for the versatility. OTOH he might stumble on some broken combo I haven't conceived of.

Then again I might just disallow a combo if I think it's broken...

Peet

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