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So recent events have gotten me thinking about something that has been an on again off again consideration that I have been tinkering with for a long time. What should martial or specifically, non-magical abilities allow you to do. We often talk about caster martial disparity, and usually it is from the end of a spell or magical/supernatural ability that does something either way better then the mundane abilities, or something they simply cannot do.
Part of that comes from the fact that we are sort of playing 2 games. One is played by magic users who do all sorts of crazy stuff and the explanation is 'because magic'. The other game is the realm of the non-magical. Fighters, rogues, cavaliers, and certain monks(those that dont exploit ki based abilities to a large degree) sit in this space. It is a rational and mathematically sound game that actually ties pretty well into the real world if you follow certain base assumptions about the level of people in the real world. Its not a perfect simulator, but its pretty good.
There have been attempts to bridge this gap. Things like the tome of battle, gave supernatural abilities to martial characters, but many rejected this because it A essentially replaces the existing martial classes, and B changes the feel of said martial classes to something a bit more anime, and a bit less lord of the rings.
So here is my question. Assuming no massive changes to the structure of the game, and without a desire to change the nature of martial abitilies, what kinds of things should martial character be able to do at say, low level (1-6), mid levels (7-14) and high levels (15-20).
Now I dont want to talk rules, or how to implement these abilities, Just what should they be able to accomplish with their abilties. I think part of the problem with discussing martial's cant have nice things, is we dont have a goal on what those nice things aught to be.
Examples:
A low level rogue should be able to effortlessly pick a lock, in less time then it seems it took to pull out his tools.
A high level fighter should be able to cut down waves of enemies with speed and grace.
A high level rogue should have a chain of contacts to be able to obtain hidden information very rapidly, and have his 'finger on the pulse' of his domain getting hits of things going on before they happen.
I'm really not trying to threadcrap here, and I put this disclaimer in because that's probably how it's going to come across...
But this thread seems like a disingenuous set-up.
Almost every answer that can be given, you're going to have someone say 'well they can do that', and possibly give you a precise build or scenario which works for exactly that example, completely ignoring how irrelevant that ability becomes after about level 4 or 5.
And it feels like a set-up to turn around and say either 'see, martials already have all the nice things they want, they're really arguing for superiority rather than equality' or 'see, even the people who play martials don't know/can't agree on what they like, how do they expect the writers to know?'.
Honestly, i feel at some poibt during mid levels, the concept of"mundane" class simply stops functioning. Feeling "more manga and less lotr" (ignoring the ignorance cotained in that wording) is a matter of higher levels, not just for martials. You dont see gandalf teleporting around or saruman casting reverse gravity to negate the ents.
I like the separation of levels into three categories; gritty heroic, superheroic, and demigodly. I feel that quite well represents how campaigns work throughout the game. The thing is, i feel that casters advance throughout these stages while the more martial classes get stuck along the way and start just ramping up numbers; fighters and rogues get stuck on the gritty heroic level, barbarians monks and paladins on the superheroic level.
This is ignoring whether or not theyre effective at doing what they do; im just looking at what they do at all.
I feel as if a campaign needs to state beforwhand where it wil end up, and that players pick classes that match that. If you are going to play a campaign where you act as practically demigods, battling greaterdemons, saving planes of existanxe etc - then the casters besgt represent that as is. If you want to play a gritty, lotr-esque campaign, most classes work well in what kind of stuff they do.
If you want to make warrior-types fit in with demigod s, they need to be more than mundane. They must be the kid of people whole armies flee from, that can look a dragon in the eyes and make it shiver, that are so inspiring a horde of orcs bow down to their glory instead slaughtering the characters friends.
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I think haste should give an extra move action OR an extra attack.
I think CMB should not decrease with iterative attacks.
I think monks should have a built in vital strike mechanic that allows their standard action attacks to deal additional weapon die damage equal to the number of attacks over 1 their flurry has and make this attack use flurry BAB.
I think vital strike, power attack, and combat expertise should be basic mechanics not feats.
I think martials should be able to cleave trip
I think Improved and greater maneuvers should be 1 feat.
I think their should be magical items that depend on the users CMB and BAB for effects
I think you should be able to give up your first attack on a full-attack to add a move action.
@throne: There is no set up. And a huge part of why I said I dont want to discuss mechanics is I dont want to talk about builds, or specific feats, or how these things can or should be accomplished. I want to know what people want the character to do. I have a few ideas on changes i may try to work into the rules (hence the part I to the thread title) but first and foremost is to figure out the goal for those changes. I have ideas, but I want to know what some of the rest of the community is thinking. Please assume I am being genuine because I really do intend to work on rules to give martial characters nice things. I just want to figure out what those are first.
@Ilja: That is part of what I want to accomplish here. To have a better endgame and progression for non-magical characters. And while I basically agree with you, the idea here is to talk about specific things you want your character to be able to do. So what does a character need to be able to do to make whole armies flee, or to stare down a dragon with confidence?
@Marthkus: Like I said I do not want to discuss mechanics here. Just concept.
Rather then talk about flurry of blows, or move actions, I'd like to talk about your concepts. Being able to move and attack. IE Being able to attack faster then normal, and still have time to move into a new position. Or move faster then normal and be able to have time to still get in a solid attack or set of attacks.
What would being able to do vital strike, power attack and combat expertise for free accomplish? What does that let a martial character DO, that is the objective here, not the mechanics.
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Be barbarian. Punch spells in the face. /thread
Not this:
If I wanted to play the Hulk, I'd play another game. I'm sure there's some sort of comic book superhero tabletop RPG out there somewhere...
Dot
Be barbarian. Punch spells in the face. /thread
So be able to disrupt magic by attacking the caster?
Be barbarian. Punch spells in the face. /threadSo be able to disrupt magic by attacking the caster?
Disruptive and spell breaker would be nice feats if disruptive wasn't a flat +4, which casters still start auto-passing that check anyways.
Not this:
** spoiler omitted **
So you dont want them to be able to jump miles, how far should they be able to jump? Should they be able to exceed what the existing acrobatics rules allows? Or is that far enough? Its flight an issue? If a martial character can do the whole crouching tiger hidden dragon thing, is that a problem?
@throne: There is no set up. And a huge part of why I said I dont want to discuss mechanics is I dont want to talk about builds, or specific feats, or how these things can or should be accomplished. I want to know what people want the character to do. I have a few ideas on changes i may try to work into the rules (hence the part I to the thread title) but first and foremost is to figure out the goal for those changes. I have ideas, but I want to know what some of the rest of the community is thinking. Please assume I am being genuine because I really do intend to work on rules to give martial characters nice things. I just want to figure out what those are first.
Yeah, I'm not trying to accuse you of being underhanded, but I can easily see the people who try and claim the status quo is fine using the thread in such a fashion; the sorts of people who play full Wizard and were screaming for Crane Wing nerfs...
Be barbarian. Punch spells in the face. /threadSo be able to disrupt magic by attacking the caster?No, be able to disrupt magic by being alive. (at least for me) Fighters had the best saves in 2nd Ed, that really helped, we should go back to it.
So apply physical toughness and martial experience to resisting magical effects? Again I dont want to talk numbers or mechanics, I want to talk capabilities.
@Marthkus: Again I dont want to talk specific abilities. If its the concept behind spell breaker you want, talk about that, not the specific rage power, or feat or what have you.
Just a couple that come up fairly often with me:
Crossbow should have it's own suite of feats that aren't tailored on Full attacking. Bonus points if you can have it work with vital strike
Maneuvers should be more effective, even at high levels, and it should be easier to qualify for the Improved/Greater [Maneuver] Feats.
Monks should actually be able to be mobile. I know you said no mechanics, but just as a idea of my thinking, basically, bonus to distance moved with a 5-ft step, possibly even with a "spring attack" like thing.
Tanking abilities leave a lot to be desired. There are a couple feat chains that help keep the enemies focused on you, but only if you can get them away from your squishy allies.
There's also some Non-combat ideas, but the problem with those is that they could easily get into either the Rumormonger territory, where, under a good DM, you shouldn't need a feat or class feature to do it, or Leadership, where it won't fit all character concepts, or all campaigns.
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So you dont want them to be able to jump miles, how far should they be able to jump? Should they be able to exceed what the existing acrobatics rules allows? Or is that far enough? Its flight an issue? If a martial character can do the whole crouching tiger hidden dragon thing, is that a problem?
Default martial characters (like fighters) shouldn't be bending or breaking the laws governing the universe (or multiverse, I suppose, since this is Pathfinder we're talking about). Obviously, hybrids like paladins and rangers are going to be spellcasting, and monks will be doing all sorts of supernatural things, but when I think of martial, I think fighter. Fighters should be able to do incredible things, but they should be limited by what's physically possible; no jumping seven miles, flying, or otherwise playing wizard. Leave wizarding to the wizard-folk.
@Tholomyes: Go ahead and point out your non-combat ideas. Almost every rule in the game is unecessary with a 'good' dm. The idea here is to codify things. Almost no rules are equally useful in every kind of campaign. Lets not assume dm intervention here. Lets assume these are things the characters can do because of their own capabilities not circumstances. If that means a group of followers/contacts, or something else thats fine. Lets talk about that. Even if it doesnt work for all campaigns, thats ok, for the ones it does work for, its important. And its ok to tread on 'dm control' here. We are trying to give martials nice things. The principle way non-martials get nice things kick dm control in the family jewels all the time (spells). Rumormonger (where lets say a rogue, has a chance to here about nefarious plans of his enemies) doesnt do anything that commune, speak with dead, locate person, scry, or any other number of spells doesnt do. So lets talk about those too.
So you dont want them to be able to jump miles, how far should they be able to jump? Should they be able to exceed what the existing acrobatics rules allows? Or is that far enough? Its flight an issue? If a martial character can do the whole crouching tiger hidden dragon thing, is that a problem?Default martial characters (like fighters) shouldn't be bending or breaking the laws governing the universe (or multiverse, I suppose, since this is Pathfinder we're talking about). Obviously, hybrids like paladins and rangers are going to be spellcasting, and monks will be doing all sorts of supernatural things, but when I think of martial, I think fighter. Fighters should be able to do incredible things, but they should be limited by what's physically possible; no jumping seven miles, flying, or otherwise playing wizard. Leave wizarding to the wizard-folk.
First of, please note I am not trying to attack your position or debate you, just understand it. I know lots of people share your feelings. So its worth exploring.
How should a martial character who is restricted to the laws of the universe, function on an level footing with characters that are not. This is an honest question, not an accusation. It can be done, but there has to be an idea of HOW it should be done. It high levels, you are essentially the green arrow playing in a game with the green lantern.
So what should the fighter or rogue be able to do that fits in the laws of the universe that allows him to be an equal partner to the guy who doesnt fit within the laws of the universe. What ARE those incredible things?
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Default martial characters (like fighters) shouldn't be bending or breaking the laws governing the universe (or multiverse, I suppose, since this is Pathfinder we're talking about). Obviously, hybrids like paladins and rangers are going to be spellcasting, and monks will be doing all sorts of supernatural things, but when I think of martial, I think fighter. Fighters should be able to do incredible things, but they should be limited by what's physically possible; no jumping seven miles, flying, or otherwise playing wizard. Leave wizarding to the wizard-folk.
While I agree that martial characters shouldn't generally be doing the high-end magical stuff that wizards, clerics, and others do, I don't think they should be strictly limited to the things people can actually do. I think we have to allow for them doing exaggerated things based on what highly trained and competent people can do even when that inevitably does bend or break the laws governing the universe. But those things, fantastic as they may be, they shouldn't really be all-out magical. There is no way any normal person can do the things Conan does, or John Carter, or Túrin Turambar. But fantasy martial characters should be able to do many of them (John Carter is a bit of special case given his environment, but his general fighting exploits make good martial character fodder for fantasy).
Be barbarian. Punch spells in the face. /threadSo be able to disrupt magic by attacking the caster?
That as well. Sunder the spells themselves is what I was going for. Barbarians can also get teleport tactician which makes escaping really tricky for most casters. With step up feats or the rage power that lets you move with your opponent it makes it even more tough.
Supernatural options are fine, I just don't want 'em baked into the class (fighter), which granted: they're not. Part of the fun for me when playing a martial character is not playing a spellcaster.
Making them walking talking anti-magic? that could work. Since we have been flat out told casters are on the buff train forever, non-casters need alot of love.
Walking antimagic? When targeting them, or just in general in their precesense?
But like I said, Dassem Ultor is a good example of a high level fighter, or Caladan Brood, they have both killed entire armies, of thousands of people, with magical support, out of sheer badassitude.
Presumably this is a high level fighter? I am not familiar with these characters, could you describe some of their exploits?
Supernatural options are fine, I just don't want 'em baked into the class (fighter), which granted: they're not. Part of the fun for me when playing a martial character is not playing a spellcaster.
Again, that is fine, you want to play a character that feels mundane. But what does that mean. You are telling me you dont want them to feel magical or supernatural. Assuming the existing fighter's abilities are not sufficient (point of this thread) what else should he be able to do as a non magical character.
Whether its part of the class or not is unimportant, just what the character should be capable of.
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So what should the fighter or rogue be able to do that fits in the laws of the universe that allows him to be an equal partner to the guy who doesnt fit within the laws of the universe. What ARE those incredible things?
A lot of the mythic abilities are pretty good examples of what martials should be able to do, and while some of them are supernatural, many are not.
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I do like the idea of being highly resistant to magic. The champion ability "lesson learned" is pretty cool in this regard, as are many guardian abilities. Walking through a spellcaster's elemental onslaught is, perhaps, supernatural, but it's not as overt as, say, leaping over a building or walking across water.
I want to play as Dante (DMC ORIGINAL) not Ned Stark. If magic is relevant I want to Abe able to do incredible things. Read The Shadowdance series, Haern is completely martial yet never feels like he can't compete.
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How should a martial character who is restricted to the laws of the universe, function on an level footing with characters that are not. This is an honest question, not an accusation. It can be done, but there has to be an idea of HOW it should be done. It high levels, you are essentially the green arrow playing in a game with the green lantern.
My opinion: don't expect to be as game-breakingly powerful as a wizard if you're playing a fighter. Let the wizard have some of the glory. Play your part and don't try to compete with the wizard. You're still contributing to the group even if you're not bending space and time. Be a fighter; it's okay. Next time play a wizard if that's what you wanna do, but remember: D&D/Pathfinder is a group game (you should be having fun as a group).
If your fighter got an extra move action at 5th level, what would that change? If that move became an extra standard at 10th? Then, an additional move/standard at 15th and 20th. Caveat: No casting spells/sla's. Using potions probably okay. Of course you need five levels of fighter under your belt so any spells you have might not be that great, but racial SLA's are a thing.
At 5th level, you get something like spring attack built in, or you can take your full attack. Come 10th level, you can Vital strike, move, and vital strike again. You could still full attack, but you should probably waste your extra actions if you take any full round actions.
A 20th level fighter that could move standard standard (-5) standard (-10) or full attack for -0, -5, -10, -15 sounds pretty potent. Game breakingly so? Well, they're not able to use those standard actions as world-bendingly as a wizard can. In terms of game balance? That would require playtesting.
It needn't be limited to the fighter. All characters could get extra actions as per leveling, tied to BAB. Martials = more actions per round. Casters = more potent single actions. Getting rid of the necessity of the full attack changes things allowing for greater cinema, but occurs at such a grounded base to the rules that it would have to be rewritten. It's a change that couldn't be implemented any time soon.
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So what should the fighter or rogue be able to do that fits in the laws of the universe that allows him to be an equal partner to the guy who doesnt fit within the laws of the universe. What ARE those incredible things?A lot of the mythic abilities are pretty good examples of what martials should be able to do, and while some of them are supernatural, many are not.
While I don't agree with everything (or honestly even most things) you have to say on this topic, I do agree with this. Honestly, while I like Mythic play, as a sort of replacement to epic tier, that doesn't have the same sort of problems that high level 3.x has, I agree that mythic really feels like a lot of what should have been baseline mid-high level martials. After all, when I think martials, only levels 1-5 are really the levels of 'realistic' fighters. After that, they really are (or should be) Mythic.
If your fighter got an extra move action at 5th level, what would that change? If that move became an extra standard at 10th? Then, an additional move/standard at 15th and 20th. Caveat: No casting spells/sla's. Using potions probably okay. Of course you need five levels of fighter under your belt so any spells you have might not be that great, but racial SLA's are a thing.
I don't like the solution of just giving extra actions. It's kludgy to implement in a way that doesn't overpower spellcasters. It slows down the game. Why not just jump straight to the main issue and not require one to be stationary when making a full attack? Allow up to one move action's worth of movement before/during/after a full attack.
Of course, this doesn't solve all the problems with the martial/caster gap, but it does remove the problem of needing to stand still to do anything.
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I've never had these problems with martial characters being reduced to cohort status... my friends and I must be playing this game wrong.
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How should a martial character who is restricted to the laws of the universe, function on an level footing with characters that are not. This is an honest question, not an accusation. It can be done, but there has to be an idea of HOW it should be done. It high levels, you are essentially the green arrow playing in a game with the green lantern.My opinion: don't expect to be as game-breakingly powerful as a wizard if you're playing a fighter. Let the wizard havesome ofthe glory. Play the sidekick and don't try to compete with the wizard. You're still contributing to the group even if you're only there as an audience. Be a fighter; it's okay. Next time play a wizard if having fun is what you wanna do, but remember: D&D/Pathfinder is a group game (you should be having fun as my groupie).
I'm pretty sure 'martials should suck it up, roll a wizard if you want to be powerful' is the exact opposite of the point of this thread.
If all you're interested in is people agreeing with you, then by all means. In the meantime, I'm not interested in playing DBZ-style martials (not to say there's anything wrong with DBZ).
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If all you're interested in is people agreeing with you, then by all means. In the meantime, I'm not interested in playing DBZ-style martials (not to say there's anything wrong with DBZ).
Then don't take those abilities. Keep taking Weapon Focus +1.
Nobody is going to take Weapon Focus out of the game just because seven league leaps are in it.
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Oh good, we've already gotten to complaints about keeping anime out of D&D. Does that mean it's time to link this image?