If the BSF is a fighter, he is going to need a lot of support and buffs to be capable...lawl no. The fighter may not get pounce, but they are still a strong presence on the battlefield.
Especially at high levels when enemies start off too far away to pounce to (or they are flying and the barbar does not have air walk). The fighter can pull out her bow and use all those range combat feats she has in addition to bows being her second weapon training.
Ok, you must obviously not play many casters do you?
I can say (from ahving played MANY a cleric) that a good deal of my time is spent buffing hte fighter and fixing his problems... Oh! We are agaisnt something that can cast SPELLS (you know... like EVERYTHING you run into mid to late game), now I need to cast Prot from Evil on the Fighter lest he get incapacitated...
Heck, the fighter has a very little battlefield presence... For instance, lets take the favorite situation for people who LOVE supporting martials, the Anti-Magic Field. The fighter loses all of his gear (which hurts alot) and loses ALL of his buffs. The Barbarian? for the most part only loses his gear because most rage powers are (Ex).
And just so ya know, Barbs make pretty good archers too....
Well also at high levels they force you to make will saves and cast spells and stuff that the fighter has NO CHANCE at dealing with.
Seriously, wall of force is such a good spell that every wizard should use it. It shuts down every class that can't teleport and all the martials except barbarians.
You mean except barbars with spell sunder and fighters without adamantine weapons
and/or classes who can walk around 2-D walls
What kind of fighters are you playing?Fighters force parties away from many obvious and effective strategies too. Because of low will saves and not being as tough as Barbarians. Clerics have to be on edge more, the full day of adventuring is shorter since the Fighter is a larger drain on resources.
Meanwhile, the party with the Barbarian is like, "We don't need to buff you to shred face? Sweet, I'm preparing more awesome spells!" Then the Cleric says, "You're not crying for help every other round? Sweet that means I can help fight too instead of worrying about whether you're going to fight on our side the whole fight!"
10th Level, Barbarians have about 40 more HP than Fighters coupled with DR5/-
Heck the Fighter only ekes out 3 or 4 more AC better than the Barbarian since he can get Natural Armor and Guarded Stance. If the Barbarian doesn't take Reckless Abandon hes got even more AC than the Fighter.
Barbs make pretty good archers too....
not really. They don't have feats for it if melee is their primary, and weapon training > rage for archery.
Fighters should be building responsibly enough to shore up their saves.
Well also at high levels they force you to make will saves and cast spells and stuff that the fighter has NO CHANCE at dealing with.
Seriously, wall of force is such a good spell that every wizard should use it. It shuts down every class that can't teleport and all the martials except barbarians.
You mean except barbars with spell sunder and fighters without adamantine weapons
and/or classes who can walk around 2-D walls
Adamantine doesn't function on Walls of Force.
Haste effects basically the whole party. It is the highest damage spell in the game.This is actually false, btw.
It might be the highest for non explody casters, but for explody casters fireball will always do way more
Everyone in the party with en extra attack vs one blast spell...
Adamantine doesn't function on Walls of Force.Well also at high levels they force you to make will saves and cast spells and stuff that the fighter has NO CHANCE at dealing with.
Seriously, wall of force is such a good spell that every wizard should use it. It shuts down every class that can't teleport and all the martials except barbarians.
You mean except barbars with spell sunder and fighters without adamantine weapons
and/or classes who can walk around 2-D walls
Ignores 20 hardness. meaning 10 hardness is left.
So you've proven that in a party where the casters are complete idiots the barbarian provides a minor limitation. You know what reacting to the conditions at hand is? Tactics. So yea in a party that can't manage tactical combat it's tough to have a barbarian. Big whoop.Party is fighting monsters. Simple trash mob so the casters didn't burn 3rd level slots for it.
Suddenly BBEG walks in (this happened to me in RotRL). Party caster thinks haste would be good. Barbar too busy raging to get buff. Begs caster to delay actions so that she can use moment of clarity. While a fighter or druid would have just taken the buff in stride instead of trying to get the party to delay actions all the time.
As you pointed out the barbar is in fact limiting the tactics the party can perform by being unbuffable.
Ignores 20 hardness. meaning 10 hardness is left.Hahahha nope!
Weapons Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20.Hardness of 20 or higher, and adamantine does nothing! Enjoy having your fighter try to go through 180hp points with dr30/-
Yes it ignores 20 hardness. That is what the sentence reads as. Now the wall has 10 hardness left.
As you pointed out the barbar is in fact limiting the tactics the party can perform by being unbuffable.No, he changes their tactics if you can't understand the difference it's not surprising you have issues. Alternatively they cast haste anyways and the Barb takes his chances then rage pounces and out DPSes the fighter anyways.
So he is either wasting the casters time or is limiting the effectiveness of the spell.
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Yes it ignores 20 hardness. That is what the sentence reads as. Now the wall has 10 hardness left.
Ignores 20 hardness. meaning 10 hardness is left.Hahahha nope!
Weapons Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20.Hardness of 20 or higher, and adamantine does nothing! Enjoy having your fighter try to go through 180hp points with dr30/-
Incorrect...
If the item has LESS THAN 20 HARDNESS IT IGNORES IT.
BUT IT DOE NOT REDUCE THE HARDNESS...
Tell me WHERE in the satement it says that adamantine IGNORES 20 points worth of hardness?
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Yes it ignores 20 hardness. That is what the sentence reads as. Now the wall has 10 hardness left.
Ignores 20 hardness. meaning 10 hardness is left.Hahahha nope!
Weapons Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20.Hardness of 20 or higher, and adamantine does nothing! Enjoy having your fighter try to go through 180hp points with dr30/-
Sadly... No. :(
Adamantine ignores Hardness lower than 20, it does not ignore 20 points of Hardness.It's an all or nothing deal. Hardness 20 or lower? Completely bypasses it. 21 or higher? Adamantine has no effect whatsoever.
Yes, it's an stupid rule. I usually rule it to work the way you say it works, but it's not how it works according to RAW. :(
EDIT: Ninja'd by KC.
No, that is not wht it says
It ignores hardness of less than 20, NOT Reduces hardness of objects by 20.
Those are very different things, unless it has been faq'd somewhere else?
Yes it ignores 20 hardness. It doesn't reduce hardness, because it doesn't make the object weaker, it just ignores 20 hardness.
Really failing to see the problem here.
Yes it ignores 20 hardness. That is what the sentence reads as. Now the wall has 10 hardness left.
Ignores 20 hardness. meaning 10 hardness is left.Hahahha nope!
Weapons Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20.Hardness of 20 or higher, and adamantine does nothing! Enjoy having your fighter try to go through 180hp points with dr30/-Sadly... No. :(
Adamantine ignores Hardness lower than 20, it does not ignore 20 points of Hardness.It's an all or nothing deal. Hardness 20 or lower? Completely bypasses it. 21 or higher? Adamantine has no effect whatsoever.
Yes, it's an stupid rule. I usually rule it to work the way you say it works, but it's not how it works according to RAW. :(
You may be right, but I would need an FAQ or a dev quote to run it that way. Since that is not how I am reading the RAW.
no the sentence reads as it ingnores hardnes <20 so hardness up to 19 is nothing anything over 20+ and adamantine may as well be paper.
These two sentences are the same then in your opinion:
Adamantine reduces an objects hardness by 20
Adamantine ignores hardness of less than 20
It doesn't reduce though. I have no idea where you are coming from.
No, that is not wht it says
It ignores hardness of less than 20, NOT Reduces hardness of objects by 20.
Those are very different things, unless it has been faq'd somewhere else?
Yes it ignores 20 hardness. It doesn't reduce hardness, because it doesn't make the object weaker, it just ignores 20 hardness.
Really failing to see the problem here.
C'mon, now you're being dense on purpose.
It ignores Hardness 20 or lower. It does not ignore 20 points of Hardness.
So adamantine still has to deal with full Hardness if the object has Hardness 21 or higher.
You may be right, but I would need an FAQ or a dev quote to run it that way. Since that is not how I am reading the RAW.Yes it ignores 20 hardness. That is what the sentence reads as. Now the wall has 10 hardness left.
Ignores 20 hardness. meaning 10 hardness is left.Hahahha nope!
Weapons Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20.Hardness of 20 or higher, and adamantine does nothing! Enjoy having your fighter try to go through 180hp points with dr30/-Sadly... No. :(
Adamantine ignores Hardness lower than 20, it does not ignore 20 points of Hardness.It's an all or nothing deal. Hardness 20 or lower? Completely bypasses it. 21 or higher? Adamantine has no effect whatsoever.
Yes, it's an stupid rule. I usually rule it to work the way you say it works, but it's not how it works according to RAW. :(
I say you should ignore it and simply run it the way you already do. It's a much better rule, IMHO.
to ask for a FAQ of a quote is crazy and wrong and won't happen. You can choose to run something however you desire but that doesn't make it right or within the rules so have fun playing your game.
No, that is not wht it says
It ignores hardness of less than 20, NOT Reduces hardness of objects by 20.
Those are very different things, unless it has been faq'd somewhere else?
Yes it ignores 20 hardness. It doesn't reduce hardness, because it doesn't make the object weaker, it just ignores 20 hardness.
Really failing to see the problem here.
C'mon, now you're being dense on purpose.
It ignores Hardness 20 or lower. It does not ignore 20 points of Hardness.
So adamantine still has to deal with full Hardness if the object has Hardness 21 or higher.
It bypasses hardness, ignoring hardness of less than 20 because the item cannot have a negative effective hardness
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No, that is not wht it says
It ignores hardness of less than 20, NOT Reduces hardness of objects by 20.
Those are very different things, unless it has been faq'd somewhere else?
Yes it ignores 20 hardness. It doesn't reduce hardness, because it doesn't make the object weaker, it just ignores 20 hardness.
Really failing to see the problem here.
I think you are assuming that adamantine reduces the hardness by 20.
The text as written states adamantine ignore hardness IF it is less than 20. It is a state-based effect.Does the object in hand has less than 20? Yes? Adamantine can cut it like butter.
Does the object in hand has less than 20? No? Bounces right off unless you can hit harder.
Remember that though adamantine is a strong star metal, other items are much harder.
to ask for a FAQ of a quote is crazy and wrong and won't happen. You can choose to run something however you desire but that doesn't make it right or within the rules so have fun playing your game.
So there is no FAQ or dev quote?
Well then I guess I'll stick to running the RAW as apparent to me.
It bypasses hardness, ignoring hardness of less than 20 because the item cannot have a negative effective hardness
Whatever, dude. There is no point in this discussion anymore... It's been repeatedly pointed out that that's not what the rules say, it's your choice to ignore them (I do).
I'm not going to say that Paladins are definitively the best martials, but I feel pretty comfortable in saying that they are the most team-friendly martials. They can tank more effectively than others and still bring the beat stick when needed, they tend to add to 'group resources' (like heals and buffs) rather than drain them as other martials do... the only conflict I can see is their 'code' which usually has more to do with the GM or the player than with the class itself.
It doesn't reduce though. I have no idea where you are coming from.You are saying it does mechanically.
"Ignores 20 hardness" and "reduces 20 hardness" are the same mechanically, but that is not what adamantine does
reduce is not the same thing as bypass/ignore.
If I reduce the hardness by 20 points then someone else has an easier time of breaking the object too.
yeah funny thing the don't FAQ or quote on things the require no response b/c people shoose to see it in some way that is wrong or clearly not what is writen, but it is your game and you can do what you want just don't expect others to think that way.
It bypasses hardness, ignoring hardness of less than 20 because the item cannot have a negative effective hardnessWhatever, dude. There is no point in this discussion anymore... It's been repeatedly pointed out that that's not what the rules say, it's your choice to ignore them (I do).
You may think that's what the rules say. That doesn't make the rules that way.
yeah funny thing the don't FAQ or quote on things the require no response b/c people shoose to see it in some way that is wrong or clearly not what is writen, but it is your game and you can do what you want just don't expect others to think that way.
You know what it also funny is how wrong people on the internet can be about the rules.
Everyone on several threads and I were arguing with 3 people how greater feint worked. I ask James Jacobs about it and it turned out that those three people were right.
So excuse me for not believing a few people on the internet about what the words bypass and ignore mean.
Deleted was being mean, sorry. Done fighting. You see things your way and run it as such that is your right to do.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qkmd?Adamantine-vs-Hardness-of-20#1
Anyway I would like to make some builds of things if other people want to see them!
What would be good places? 4-8-12-16-20?
I like 4 8 and 10. 12th level, gold fixes too much of the problems inherent in a class. I consider builds above that pretty pointless in a class discussion.
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Synthasist 8 / Pally 2 Practically invincible, has pounce, armor through the wazoo, flies, etc. Also serves as the party face, since he looks like a divine beast of the gods. AC should be in the high 30s, 40 if you put up shield (Mage armor always-on assumed).
Or heck, Just Synth 10; the Pally decreases offense a little in exchange for +9 to your saves and standard action summon monster-casting from your spelllist.
Yes, there are reasons Synths are banned.
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I think they are all viable and can provide different benefits to a party. If you are running it organically, the player will build to add to the party dynamic. A wizard and cleric will know the best buffs to maximize the effectiveness of the class. The melee will have feats that can be used as part of the group strategy like a fighter picking up feats to be able to demoralize opponents to lower saves for caster spells to succeed more often.
Superstition doesn't matter. I ran a human barbarian with superstition to lvl 20. All the casters did was buff him before he raged. They coordinated the casting of haste as he was about to rage. It's very easy to coordinate casting. He didn't need much healing. If he needed a healer, 75 points after a save was good enough. The guy had over 400 hit points raging along with DR 10/-. He had a ring of evasion. He didn't take a whole lot of damage from non-physical sources.
I've run fighters, rangers, paladins, monks, barbarians, and magus to high level as a mainline melee. All of them were effective at their job when built to be so and backed by a party.
The problem with casters as mainline melee is their best buffs can be stripped dispels, which turns them into inferior melee characters. I often used coordinated dispels against high level parties. Thus I have not had many casters choose to focus on becoming a powerful melee. It does not work because my DMing philosophy is that a high level enemy would not have survived without a powerful dispeller in his employ. Why modules do not take this into account, I do not know.
Module designers are extremely poor tacticians in my experience. They do not take into account that a powerful enemy would not survive as long as they supposedly have without a powerful caster of some type backing them or a powerful group of melees on their team. They need a complete team to win. I never design encounters like module designers do allowing a party not only to have superior action economy with multiple actions against a single opponent (unless it's a dragon or other such creature which I buff accordingly) but an advantage in power versatility.
In my opinion a party that isn't optimized against a single powerful opponent will achieve victory regardless of class makeup. All this talk of one martial class being better than another is a moot point because a party will destroy 95% of encounters that aren't tailored to fight an adventuring party.
I would say Paladin or Barbarian is the head of the martial pack. And depending on your needs and the adventure one is probably a better fit than the other.
With the paladin the RP and code restrictions are something for the player and the party to consider as well as the Paladin's relative lack of power against non-evil opponents. The paladin does have superior armor and with certain options (i.e. Fey Foundling) has very good in combat healing effectively providing more HP than even the barbarian has.
With Spell Sunder, Eater of Magic, huge strength and con scores, DR especially with Invulnerable Rager, and Beast Totem the barbarian becomes a huge damage dealing, full pouncing alpha striking caster terror. Between Superstition and Ghost Rager a Barbarian will have incredibly high saves and touch AC.
Personally unless I know an adventure is going to involve explicitly fighting evil creatures all the time I'd probably choose barbarian every time.
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This Clericzila build is clearly a weaker melee combatant than the Fighter Man, Paladin Man, or Barbarian, above. Defense is weak, with only light armor (for movement), no shield, and mediocre HP. Unbuffed striking power is poor. For a few minutes a day, however, 4th level Clericzilla can cast a combination of self-buffs that give additional +5 to hit and +11.5 damage, gaining excellent striking power. 4th level Clericzilla can max-buff for about 20 rounds per day, striking +10 for 2d6+17 at 20' reach. Buffed Clericzilla might lose to the Barbarian Dwarf above, but inflicts more martial damage, and can do it from the second rank.
Human Cleric 4
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6 ; Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 16 (Buffed AC 18), touch 12 , flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 35 (4d8+12) (Buffed HP 43)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +6;
Re-roll one failed saving throw each day
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee
Not Buffed: Normal longspear +5 (1d8+ 7/×3)
Full Buffed: +1 longspear +11 (2d6+17/×3)
Ranged: Use Bit of Luck on archer ally
Special Attacks: Divine Spells. Reach weapon and Combat Reflexes gives up to 3 AoOs each round. Truestrike. Can set up for buffed Lucky AoOs with 20' reach. Lucky means roll each d20 twice and take best roll.
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 12 (20 point build)
Base Atk +3; CMB +6 (Buffed +9); CMD 8 (Buffed +12)
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Improved Initiative
Traits: Second Chance, Fate's Favored
Skills: Just terrible at 2 points per level
Languages Common
Other Gear: Normal chain shirt, normal club, 3 rocks, holy symbols, WBL gp minus about 200 gp spent on gear
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Special Abilities
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Full Divine Caster
Swift Action Enlarge Person for 20' reach
Give Bit of Luck to Ally
Layered Clericzilla self buffs: Bull's Strength +2 +3, Divine Favor (with Fate's favored) +2 +2, Weapon of Awe 0 +2, Magic Weapon +1 +1, Enlarge person 0 +2, Aid (HP only, bonus does not stack),Shield of Faith +2 AC
Channel Positive Energy +2d6 HP 4x / day