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Long post is loooong.
So, in one of the campaigns I'm in, we had our next session. And I was stuck home due to a Paper I should be working on even know. But comparative analysis between the political economic models used in Hongkong/Taiwan and those used in Brazil/Chili can wait, I have Pathfinder to talk about.
So, everything went fine, went to the ruined tower as planned, looted stuff, some random things.
Then I get a message in skype randomly from the party's Oracle, some paraphrasing occurred, but any spelling errors and grammar are likely original to the comments. I also have reordered events in minor ways to allow for easier reading. These changes should be negligible.
Oracle: "We need your character sheet."
Me: "What? Why?"
Oracle: "We're about to die, we'll die without you."
Me: "What? Uh, second, bringing up mythweavers... uh, need to update, but here (Link) I'll tell you when to refresh when I've updated."
Oracle: "Okay"
Me: "What's happening?"
Oracle: "We are fighting a manticor+2 lamia's 2 cr 5 and a cr 6 we are screwed, because no on showed up but me, B and C" (All characters are level 3)
(Supposedly a fourth person was there too, but may have left)
Some minor talking occurs, I get him into a call so I can hear them. My Ranger does great in her first combat (Under someone else's control... -_-), apparently helping quite a bit.
Leaving the second Lamia.
Which is a "baby". (Later determined to be the equivalent of 9)
The dead Lamia has fallen on her after she was choked to death by the Wizard using creative use of game mechanics. I don't notice the "Baby" part until now, so I ask:
Me: "BTW, what alignment is the Baby?"
Oracle: "CE"
Me: "The Baby is CE? Seriously? wtf? How does that work?"
Oracle: "the parent is CE, racial its CE"
Me: "Stil la baby right?"
Oracle: "its young"
Me: "Well, my character would, once the danger is past, try to help/save the baby. Unless she returns to being pure ghosting, rather than this partial ghosting, God, that is &$^%ed up, kinda glad I'm not there"
At this point I hear someone mention doing something untoward to the baby. I respond (Still in skype).
"PELASE DON'T KILL ZE BABY! HELP ZE BABY!"
"we just killed her parents"
And this is where I found out we had just orphaned a Lamia.
I start sending a bunch of texts, but get ignored.
The "Cub" is tied up in spider webs (I have no idea where those came from), and set to be dragged after us, by order of the Oracle, so that the Lamia doesn't kill us.
And then the Skype call was closed. A few hours later, another player (The party wizard) comes on, the session is over. I ask:
Me: "So, how did everything go for you guys? :)"
Wizard: "fun, met a chaotic aligned enemy. And went full rage mode trying to snap it's neck with Mage Hands"
Me: "Apparently my ranger killed 2 things, and a child got to wtach thier parents die on them, Did the Mage hands work?"
Wizard: "Not in breaking the neck no but sure as hell choked the life out of the thing"
Me: "Well, when plan B works, where plan A fails, who cares right? XD So, you guys went to the Tower, started exploring, and this was teh first encounter?"
Wizard: "eyup"
Me: "So, any desicions made on the Lamia cub? Or is it still tied up, and being dragged?"
Wizard: "nope. I won't kill it, Chaotic and evil as it may be, it's still a child."
Me: "Same here, hell, unless she (Heard DM say "She") does something and tries to kill someone, my ranger would beat the S*~~ out of anyoen who tried I figure A) We raise it (That sounds complicated) B) Find some good Lamia's to raise it C) Find some druids, same as above"
The player then stopped replying to chat, and proceeded to have musical skype dropping issues.
The DM got on an hour later, so I texted him:
Me: "So, tried to kill everyone eh?"
DM: "actually, the Oracle went ballistic and killed a mother defending her cub instead of the off-the-wall angry and violent manticore"
Me: "Damn, wish I was there, woulda tried to help...wait? The Oracle said I kileld two things? Did I kill teh mother?! O_O Oh god, please no"
DM: "he had you take those shots, yes."
Great, my character the Orphan, just added to the Orphan population... The DM continued:
DM: "she made absolutely no attack, she was even keeping the manticore from initiating combat earlier on"
Me: "Shoulda made him tell me what was up vefore using my character. er, before... *%$k, A Lamia in an intelligent creature right?"
DM: "yes"
Me: "Not a humanoid?"
DM: "Monstrous Humanoid, and manticores are Monstrous Beasts"
Me: "Ah, so not an animal then...”
Editing for private comments, I continued:
Me: “'CE means I'm supposed to kill it' and all that"
DM: "Just because a humanoid creature is Typically one alignment does not make them all that same aligment"
Me: "Oh god, did NON ONE DETECT EVIL?"
DM: "he pulled up the stats for it and kept making judgments based on that"
Me: "I assumed you guys checked, No sense motive, nothing? Wtf, I'm goen one session, and they start Murderhobo-ing..."
DM: "no sense motive, when they asked what alignment "Lamia'S" are, Plural, I told them evil, and he went leeroy jenkins from there, I believe the Oracle detected evil, and they did make a knowledge check, but didn't get much from it, he ASSUMED the chaos part."
Me: "Was worried he had Metagamed it, doing that, then the events that followed... it's like asking for a GM to screw with you. That's when you change teh Alignment to NN, and cackle XD"
DM: "no, he told everyone it was evil, he kept demanding everyone attack the lamia, she's dangerous and evil and able to kill everyone with a blink and all that.. THat's what he conveyed."
Some time passes, more talk of the topic, but things I can't post.
I comment there is some things I want to do, he asks what, and so I post this:
Me: "Priorities:
Check mother (Perhaps father? Was there another?)
Check Baby
Divine intervnetion?: Started worshiping this nice nifty new goddess, maybe she'll help take pity on a poor child who just got orphaned? :(
If Mother can be helped, do so, try to Diplomance when possible, try to help
If mother can't, try to help baby as best as possible.
----Give baby the blanket, wrap her up, give her my Teddy bear
--------Murder anyone who gives her crap about Teddy bear
Never trust the oracle's judgment, again
----Oracle never get's to diplomacy me, character did't trust him before, this seals the deal
My character is an orphan herself, SHE IS NOT HAPPY ABOUT THIS &^%T"
We get onto the topic of alignments as a result. At face value (Without interviewing the Oracle) there could be some Alignment points as a result. The Oracle is LG (Apparently NG now, not a result of this session, changed between sessions and I didn't know), and I am asked if I believe these actions were Chaotic or Evil. I typed part of my response in word, and part in skype, should be obvious which is which. I responded:
"The Problem with LG has always been the same problem. Most people don't understand what LG actually IS. To oversimplify, The Law provides stability and allows people to live their lives free from tyranny, Good protects those who can't protect themselves from those who would cause them harm (Oversimplified, I know). A LG character needs to be able to balance Good and Law, and still to some degree embody Compassion, Mercy, Truth, Justice, Honor, etc.
The oracle met the letter of the alignment, he failed the spirit. He stood against evil, when he didn't need to, and in fact could have tried to avoid the confrontation. Perhaps even making a positive impact on the creature. People can change, even monstrous humanoids. He either didn't even make an attempt, or made a perfunctory one only. He relied on Alignment being the whole story, Law is about finding the Truth, and applying Justice. He did not find the truth, or apply justice. He let the technicalities of the alignment system solve the issue for him.
In short, He was neither Lawful, nor Good. Nor was he Chaotic, or Evil.
He was Neutral. Through and through. Not neutral in motivation, goal or desire. But in Action, and outcome from those actions.
That's my opinion. I've met very few people who can actually play LG well. Thankfully, I've read enough books to see plenty of Good examples for myself (Michael Carpenter, WOO).
If my character dies, and I can't/don't res her. We'll get to see me play LG. :P
Monks have no other option really. XD
There almost needs to be a third alignment variable, one that emasure how well the individual or organization actually lives up to the ideal's/beliefs theyr'e supposed to epitomize.
So we can get LG organizatiosn that restrict freedom through Law, and commit evils in goods name
And vice versa"
At this point, the fact that the session had ended just as the last monster went down was brought up.
And the possibility that the Mother Lamia might MIGHT still be alive was raised.
I was ALL over that, another character was ghosted this session (A Pally healer), and it was determined, based off of what we knew of her, that she would likely be willing to disregard the Oracle and heal the Lamia. Next session, I would try to convince her to do this (What, we can't make that decision for her after all! XD). I comment:
Me: "Of course, the lamia is going to immediatly try to kill me and Raina, understandably, God, I hope I rol la good Diplomacy"
That was that for that topic (So far), I will of course post updates as I gather more complete information. that was not however the only thing that occurred, the DM also had this too share:
DM: "one of the things the wizard and the oracle said today disquieted me a bit as well.."
Me: "?"
DM: "they said 'The GM is by default our greatest enemy'"
Me: "..."
DM: "I can see where they come from, but... That's not the role I'm taking"
Me: "the GM is not the enemy, the GM is the storyteller who helps the party along"
DM: "...I am not here to be your biggest nightmare or enemy, I am the storyteller <_< yes"
Me: "if the GM ever becoems an Enemy, you're doing it wrong"
DM: "or the GM is doing it wrong"
Me: "well, I didn't specifiy who "You're" was XD I've always thought of the Gm as the "Patron" of teh group personally The god who guides them, but leaves them free will"
DM: "I've heard a good amount of horror stories about GMs actively trying to kill their players"
Me: "They both think that's how you make challenging games"
All identifying information has been edited out. All private information and comments has been edited out. All unflattering commentary has been edited out. All information pertaining to things may be of a sensitive nature have been edited out.
I have been allowed to post this.
So, what do you guys think?
Edit (For Clarity): As near as I have been able to tell thus far, The Oracle got some information from the GM, assumed a bunch more based partly (Or mostly) on OOC knowledge, ordered the Wizard to kill them, and Cohort-ed my Character to do so as well. In case it wasn't clear >_>
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Yes, I agree with the others, never have anyone else play your character. It is not a tank, it is a character. Also, try this tactic. Since your character was there (even though you were not playing it at the time), See if the GM will allow you the rolls for Dungeoneering, etc. This way you could maybe have some personal information to work with.
Even though the situation sucks, embrace it as a role playing moment. Don't worry about raising the mother. Bury her, then get the party to embark on a quest for a druid circle that can adopt the baby. You may need to perform a task for them to take that responsibility, but it would still be a Quest!!
Post more if you need more advice, but good luck!!
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Uh, the GM allowed the wizard to use Mage Hand to choke a lamia to death?
Since that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard (and absolutely not within the allowed abilities of the spell), I propose this semi-retcon for your DM (which, IMO, is more believable than a mage hand choke):
The lamia is a powerful enchantress/illusionist. She used a spell to make the wizard think he killed her with his cantrip. When your ranger goes to help her and the baby, she notices that you are actually semi decent and tells you that she will spare you, but the murderous oracle is going to be her puppet.
*persistent dominate person*
If the oracle complains meta-gamey about the "CR" of facing a leveled lamia, well, it wasn't hostile and he chose to initiate the fight. Lesson learned.
The problem was even playing with (at least) two people out, let alone doing an encounter obviously based on your full party's strength.
It was a failed session with a little bit of blame for all, hopefully you all learned: never let someone else do anything important with your character sheet, think of the children, and for God's sake don't let a wizard strangle something to death with mage hands!
Well that is certainly going to have repercussions inside and outside the game. I would never let that player touch my character ever again, and in game my character would probably suspect juju mind control magic because something clearly possessed him for a good half hour or so without his consent.
If the mom is actually dead, and you manage to save the body, and get enough gold within a week (1280 gp if you get a lvl 7 druid) you can try to reincarnate the dead mother. Hopefully that would at least stop random murderhobos from murderhoboing her and her family on sight.
Oh sweet, 1280 GP for a druid to do it? Our Fae Sorcerer lived with druids, should be able to use that link to get a hold of one, and we have the cash.
My character (And the Wizard oddly enough) focused on the Manticore, only switching when it was almost gone. At that point, no real way to salvage the situation. :(
I'm going with: My character was guarding the rear of the party, and only entered the room once all hell had broken loose. Kinda have too, he played my character blatantly against what she would have done, had she know the situation, so she couldn't possibly have known the situation. So, out of the room. Doesn't mean she isn't going to be furious when I get there...
Yes, I agree with the others, never have anyone else play your character. It is not a tank, it is a character. Also, try this tactic. Since your character was there (even though you were not playing it at the time), See if the GM will allow you the rolls for Dungeoneering, etc. This way you could maybe have some personal information to work with.
Even though the situation sucks, embrace it as a role playing moment. Don't worry about raising the mother. Bury her, then get the party to embark on a quest for a druid circle that can adopt the baby. You may need to perform a task for them to take that responsibility, but it would still be a Quest!!
Post more if you need more advice, but good luck!!
I'm at least going to make the required (And hopeful) "Check the mother to see if she's really dead". But otherwise, yeah rolling with it. Could lead to some awesome story or RP, course I'm not letting the Oracle know that just yet :P
Additional information: The Oracle now wants to adopt the Lamia. When he told me about it, he made sure to mention that having a Lamia as a Cohort would be awesome.
I'm seriously leaning towards Druid circle now myself, when I originally suggested it, it was mostly joking. My character would gladly help raise the Lamia, but she doesn't trust the Oracle now to do so, so would want to remove the conflict.
Uh, the GM allowed the wizard to use Mage Hand to choke a lamia to death?
Since that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard (and absolutely not within the allowed abilities of the spell), I propose this semi-retcon for your DM (which, IMO, is more believable than a mage hand choke):
The lamia is a powerful enchantress/illusionist. She used a spell to make the wizard think he killed her with his cantrip. When your ranger goes to help her and the baby, she notices that you are actually semi decent and tells you that she will spare you, but the murderous oracle is going to be her puppet.
*persistent dominate person*
If the oracle complains meta-gamey about the "CR" of facing a leveled lamia, well, it wasn't hostile and he chose to initiate the fight. Lesson learned.
Not certain how it worked, but I think it was technically available to him as an option. He is a race that gets Mage hand at will, and he prepared it in his spell list... multiple times. So he could have it going simultaneously in multiple instances (Or something, I heard this during the first part while listening in over skype), he used them all, and rolled really really well. No idea if that was legal.
I will pass this suggestion along, and may the PF gods have mercy on my soul. XD
Never let anybody play your character when you're not present. If they're screwed they probably deserve it. And in this case they did indeed deserve a TPK.
Yeah, learned that lesson right damn fast.
----
Updated information: The Mother Lamia was trying to free her baby from Spider webs, and so was defending the baby from us as a potential threat. She held back until we attacked, and until then restrained the Berserk Manticore, and prevented it from attacking us. She may have been Evil, but she did not seek this conflict, not while her child was in harms way.
The problem was even playing with (at least) two people out, let alone doing an encounter obviously based on your full party's strength.
It was a failed session with a little bit of blame for all, hopefully you all learned: never let someone else do anything important with your character sheet, think of the children, and for God's sake don't let a wizard strangle something to death with mage hands!
Apparently it was designed as an "Encounter" that was "obviously too much for the party, so how does it get out of it?" Style encounter.
Could have told the GM they'd likely attack it without me there to diplomance the Monster's (And IRL, the party) XD
At this point, looks like it's all settling down.
Oracle want's to Adopt, Wizard is still asleep (IRL), Ranger (ME) doesn't trust the Oracle (She didn't to begin with, so, same as before), but is up for adoption, but recognizes that isn't the best option.
The story goes on, and improves as a result. :)
More later, need to help a family member move.
If half the group is missing, you don't play that night. Do something else. Video games, movie night, card games, board games, something.
The DM should just retcon the entire thing, rewind time back to before all this hit the fan, say it never happened, and take it from the top.
This sounds like an excellent time to meet a time dragon from Bestiary 4.
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This sounds like an excellent time to meet a time dragon from Bestiary 4.
Or a madman with a box.
If half the group is missing, you don't play that night. Do something else. Video games, movie night, card games, board games, something.
The DM should just retcon the entire thing, rewind time back to before all this hit the fan, say it never happened, and take it from the top.
The actual party is around 9 players. But we all have conflicting schedules, so which players are available differs from session to session. Two characters were ghosted because we had been plot relevant, and needed to be there. The other ghost was supposed to be there, but didn't show (They expected her to pop in, but she never did) while I had to cancel that morning due to HW. So only 3 were there, when 5 had been planned.
And while everyone may have differing opinions of what should happen next, and what should have happened, everyone (Players and GM) is in agreement that whatever happens next, it'll be awesome.
Sometimes mistakes make for the best stories.
When you leave your character with the group, you really should leave it with the GM. Even then there is always the chance something will go wrong.
Our group has been playing together for years and we leave copies of our charactersheets with the GM if we can't make it to the game. On the one hand I trust the GM isn't going to FUBAR my character, but on the other hand I know that there is always the possibility that something will go wrong in a game.
I would (In your shoes) go absolutely a$@%@%@ on the Oracle in the game. Claim that your character was led astray, perhaps seek an atonement spell to cleanse yourself of your sin of murder, and do everything in your power to save the child from the bloodthirsty murderhobo oracle.
When you leave your character with the group, you really should leave it with the GM. Even then there is always the chance something will go wrong.
Our group has been playing together for years and we leave copies of our charactersheets with the GM if we can't make it to the game. On the one hand I trust the GM isn't going to FUBAR my character, but on the other hand I know that there is always the possibility that something will go wrong in a game.
That is an excellent idea, I already gave him the link to my character, so should be easy to implement.
I would (In your shoes) go absolutely a%$++%& on the Oracle in the game. Claim that your character was led astray, perhaps seek an atonement spell to cleanse yourself of your sin of murder, and do everything in your power to save the child from the bloodthirsty murderhobo oracle.
As it's set up now, my character had no knowledge of what was happening till it was over. She came in after the fight had started (Guarding the hallway, yeah, crappy excuse, but it'll work for now). The GM has okayed this. So it'll be up to me as a player how everything works from here on out.
I had a trait slot open, for while I was going through the traits (GM permission given) one by one, and I seem to have acquired "Absolute Loyalty". Wouldn't have applied in this situation, but still, useful.
Note: The Oracle is a type of half-celestial, similar to an Aasimar. My ranger is an Aasimar (I usually play Humans or "normal" races, wanted to play something different). The Lamia has a good chance to now hate Celestials, due to the Oracle. Collateral damage to me, Damnit. Well, I have a good Cha and Dip, so lessee how this works at the next session.
I could not play alongside that oracle. Just...ugh.
Condolences on having to deal with this crap.
He's a great guy IRL, always willing to help others, gives people rides everywhere, help with anything anywhere anytime.
His character though, comes from whichever plane Celestials call home. Where supposedly there is a perpetual war going on between the Celly's and the various forces of Darkness. He was sent to midgar-... er, to our plane because he was deemed too weak to join the fight, and was told to gain the experience and power needed to fight the forces of darkness and return. As a result, his character really has a thing going when it comes to the various evils out there. When we ran into a succubus (Which escaped), he treated the eyewitness like crap to try and get more information, he was overall very impatient and rude to her. When we found the corpse that had been left behind by the Succubus, he treated the adopted daughter of said former-living the same way.
His character has one priority once evil has been identified, defeating it, and anything that hinder's him is to be resented. Including social niceties.
He was called on this, and how "Non-good" it seemed, but he justified it with his backstory.
The argument ended with me concluding that this character couldn't possibly be half-human half-celestial, he had no humanity in him.
Near as I can tell, something similar happened here.
That said, if he roleplays gaining humanity over time, it could be an amazing story, but if he stays static and doesn't change...
Gonna get old fast. Especially since he has a Cha of 24-26, and is our party Face (I'm the backup).
That really sucks.
...
In your situation I'd have made whoever was playing your character to do sense motives, make a will save or anything else to make sure your ranger didn't make that shot when there's no way you as a player would have made that shot were you present. Especially with your well stated backstory.
And afterwards, I'd let you retcon it up to a point, even if only to let you (and the party) expend a hero point to add to a heal roll to revive the mother. I won't run a game where PCs blink in and out of existence whenever the player is indisposed, but I couldn't in all conscience run one where players get disenfranchised because other players are screwing with their well crafted characters.
As near as I can tell, the whole players playing another character is never happening again. There had been some miscommunication or something between the Oracle and the GM, so the Oracle ended up controlling me instead of the GM (Who thought the oracle had received permission, when I had no idea what was going on, and the Oracle didn't realize permission was needed, because he thought the GM had told him to do it, yay?).
No danger of me being disenfranchised, I'm gonna RP this but good :D
Oooh, we even have hero points, totally gonna try and do that when I make my heal save at the beginning of next session. I have a tendency to roll badly on everything :(
Thank you for that tip!
I'm still lost on strangling with Mage Hand, a spell that can only lift 5 pounds...
With 4-5 mage hands, because he had that many prepared or something? Yeah, confuses me too, but I know the GM, and I heard the Oracle rules lawyer-ing over skype before he hung up on me. His Mage hand is also buffed up as part of his race, but as he's only level 3, it shouldn't be that buffed yet. Shouldn't be all that buffed even at level 20.
As part of his backstory, he really pissed off a God, and so the Gm ruled that the God baleful polymorphed him. The player rolled as per the GM's directions, and got "Pony" off the polymorph list. Five dollars later at the Paizo store... He's now a Unicorn Pony Wizard. I haven't read the Ponyfinder book, but it does get a slowly buffed Mage hand at will to simulate Telekinesis.
This I really want to figure out, but I won't get the chance till monday when I'm there in person, really need to see their faces for that conversation, so I can get a feel for the motivations behind the choices and decision.
Honestly, the poor wizard got it the worst. As my character entered during the fight, I can say she wasn't there for the first part, and can roleplay her has fairly ignorant till the end.
The Wizard was there for the whole thing.
The Wizard hates the idea of hurting anyone. He has no offensive spells at all, only buffs, debuffs, battlefield control spells and summons. He's a vegetarian too, refuses to cause harm or kill if he can help it. But at the Oracles orders, he had to attempt to strangle a mother, ATOP her child, as she defended it. Almost glad my Ranger pegged her and ended it for him (Actually not, but god). That's why he had to improvise, and get a series of ridiculously good rolls. Which he did.
I haven't commented much on this part till now, because my information is so sparse on this part.
So yeah, I can't say for certain how it worked out, until I talk to him, but I trust the players involved, and trust that it will make sense in the end. The Oracle really knows what he's doing when it comes to rules, as a player. It's the character I don't trust. XD
I hate to say it, but when we play, we kind of have a rule for this sort of thing: If you don't show up, you don't get to make the decisions for your character.
It's no fault to our players, they have real life things they gotta do (half of our group are actually police officers/security guards), but it's a game to us. If we aren't present, then it happens, big deal. If anything, it's pretty funny.
Half the time a person doesn't show up, they end up either unconscious or outright dead for the fight. One of our newer players has a (now) Worg animal companion via Leadership Feat; after we blew up 2 of his previous creatures (obtained beforehand without Leadership) due to him not being here. Our other player who has played with our GM since Day 1, generally ends up unconscious. We then make jokes that he's dead and that so and so caused him to die. (We do that for anybody who doesn't show up.)
I've had it happen to me a couple of times, and it's fine. It's a game, and if I don't show up, I lose rights to decisions made for and by my character.
And it's not like we purposely try to kill our other characters off; but it happens, and when it does, the finger gets thrown out (in all senses of the term), and then we watch the fur fly (or skin, in some character's senses).
I hate to say it, but when we play, we kind of have a rule for this sort of thing: If you don't show up, you don't get to make the decisions for your character.
It's no fault to our players, they have real life things they gotta do (half of our group are actually police officers/security guards), but it's a game to us. If we aren't present, then it happens, big deal. If anything, it's pretty funny.
Half the time a person doesn't show up, they end up either unconscious or outright dead for the fight. One of our newer players has a (now) Worg animal companion via Leadership Feat; after we blew up 2 of his previous creatures (obtained beforehand without Leadership) due to him not being here. Our other player who has played with our GM since Day 1, generally ends up unconscious. We then make jokes that he's dead and that so and so caused him to die. (We do that for anybody who doesn't show up.)
I've had it happen to me a couple of times, and it's fine. It's a game, and if I don't show up, I lose rights to decisions made for and by my character.
And it's not like we purposely try to kill our other characters off; but it happens, and when it does, the finger gets thrown out (in all senses of the term), and then we watch the fur fly (or skin, in some character's senses).
General rule for us, is that if you aren't there, your character is there, but is unable to interact with anything unless it interacted with the rest of the party. You become part of the background pretty much.
My character was carrying an item that was plot necessary, and was the original target of the Divination spell targeting the group. So, I became briefly an exception to the rule, much to my irritation.
Group gets captured by a dragon while you weren't there, you were captured as well. Unless your character was specified as being elsewhere prior to said capture (Bob isn't going to be here, his character is going to Aruba for the day and will be back tomorrow). Obviously doesn't work unless we're in a spot where that makes sense (In town, etc.).
Makes sense though, if you aren't there, why would you be making decisions for your character? Your character shouldn't be active if you yourself aren't. Slightly different takes on the same idea, with very different outcomes.
Pretty sure our respective party members would get a bit ruffled if someone cause harm to their character while they weren't there.
I'll have to bring this to the GM's attention. Having a set way to deal with this would prevent issues like "Oh god, we're gonna die! Wait, what about the Ranger?" "She's not here..." "You've been having us ghost her for plot reasons." "Fine, use skype to get the character sheet."
As I see it those mage hands shoud have been able to deal at most subdual damage even with that strangly bit, plus - does your oracle have the heal skill? without it he won't be able to tell much between unconscious and dead..mention that to your GM and you might not have seen the last of that momma. Also - you'll gain kudos with Lamashtu :D
I'm just amazed at that 9 person group. In my neighbourhood we're starting to agree that 4 is optimum with 5 being bearable if the party is cooperative. Still we separate the driverless PCs offering them single-char sidequests (usually over skype) or downtime..or just making them victims of some unfortunate event that knocks the person out of action for some time
As I see it those mage hands shoud have been able to deal at most subdual damage even with that strangly bit, plus - does your oracle have the heal skill? without it he won't be able to tell much between unconscious and dead..mention that to your GM and you might not have seen the last of that momma. Also - you'll gain kudos with Lamashtu :D
I'm just amazed at that 9 person group. In my neighbourhood we're starting to agree that 4 is optimum with 5 being bearable if the party is cooperative. Still we separate the driverless PCs offering them single-char sidequests (usually over skype) or downtime
Man, I have like a sixth sense or something when it comes to checking things for updates.
The Mage hands did not kill the Lamia, my ranger's arrow did. Pretty sure he just subdued it.
It's possible he doesn't have the heal skill, if he optimized. What does an actual healer need with Heal afterall, he can cast "Heal"! XD
I put a point into every class skill at the beginning, and specialize from there, so I do have Heal as a skill. And I am now prepared to use a/some hero points of need be (Might use it just in case anyways).
Personally, I treat alignment as a guideline in some ways. A creature may be CE, but is it being evil right now? No? Well, then we have a problem, because I ain't being Judge, Jury and Executioner without good reason. If the Momma lives (Somehow) and is willing to let us be, I'm willing to let her be, and may even give her some supplies and aid as an apology.
I'm aware OOC that she may then go and murder a bunch of innocents. That's something we may need to work out IC as a party.
But Children are innocents too, regardless of parentage.
Yeah, 9 people is a bit much. But if we get half that, it's a good day. And it's never the same half due to scheduling. So it's more like 3-6 people usually, rarely more or less.
I would not have the oracle be the party face until his character learns better, I don't care how good your diplomacy roll is if the character isn't a good diplomat. And I think after what the wizard was forced to do he certainly doesn't regard the oracle as the party leader.
That is a very good point, one I hadn't worked all the way through.
I would find some way to teach the oracle that detect evil and knowledge checks are not reliable ways to identify a particular creature's alignment. Literally any first level wizard can give a false positive on a detect evil spell (infernal healing is a first level spell). In my games sense motive is the only way to reliably tell if a particular creature is going to be evil towards you (fun fact: any aligned spell cast at CL 6+ will spoof a detect x spell without notifying the target).
I was unaware of that, I'm not particularly skilled at PF's spell system. May pass this along to the wizard, for fun (He likely already knows, he always does when I show him neat/interesting things -_- ).
If you can convince the oracle that what he did was clearly an evil act see if you can get the money for a Phylactery of Faithfulness. Here is what it does:The wearer of a phylactery of faithfulness is aware of any action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity, including magical effects. He acquires this information prior to performing such an action or becoming associated with such an item if he takes a moment to contemplate the act.Seeing as he is currently CN it will tell him if a particular action will shift him more evil OR more good (carrot and stick in one item). It isn't automatic but it'll allow other characters to call him out on something and he can get divine feedback. I think it could really help to progress his character development, plus it is only 1000 gp (or less if you ask really nicely at a church or something and the DM throws you a bone)
He's NG currently. Oddly enough I had jokingly posted that to the GM on friday. It was part of what was edited out as it dealt with things like possible alignment shifts/points, and I felt it wasn't my place to post that part of the conversation, especially if that Player were to find this thread. I liked the idea at first, joked it would be the first thing I bought, or should be in the next chest we opened.
But then I thought more about it, and I spotted too many places that this could be abused (Via the player using it), or subjected to abuse via the other players and GM. It seemed too easy to me for others to begin forcing their morality on others, or force someone to change how they RP.
Party finds Mother Lamia and Child with a crazed Manticore that she can control to some extent. Wizard strives to prevent fight even during fight. Oracle knew avoiding the fight was impossible as the other side is evil, and pushed the party to attack first. Party attempts diplomacy, fails, no second attempt at Diplomacy. Fight begins. Manticore is killed, mother is "killed". Baby is tied up.
Just going off of that, it could be argued either way that something evil had happened.
It's only when we delve into the reasoning, motivations and details that it becomes clear something wrong happened. And even then, it's still pretty subjective, and the Oracle has successfully argued that point to the GM. He's taking one Point towards Chaotic, no points aside from that, signifying he successfully argued the act he did was NOT evil.
I disagree heavily, and if it comes up for debate, I will argue as such. Otherwise I abide by the GMs decision.
I'd rather have our characters throw some sort of an intervention, and act as his Jiminy Cricket IC than give him this item. At least for now anyways. Still need to learn more about the groups dynamics to be certain that no one will abuse it. Damn useful item if we can use it though!
Please don't take that the wrong way btw, I'm grateful you posted it, and posted here! Your comment was greatly appreciated, and the criticism of the item wasn't aimed at you in any fashion. :)
My advice for future sessions: leave your PC with the GM. He's the closest thing to a disinterested party in sight (or should be). He knows more about your character than other players. You can leave some instructions (verbal or written) with him. And, if he was out to get you it wouldn't matter if you were there or not :D
My advice for future sessions: leave your PC with the GM. He's the closest thing to a disinterested party in sight (or should be). He knows more about your character than other players. You can leave some instructions (verbal or written) with him. And, if he was out to get you it wouldn't matter if you were there or not :D
Yeah, good point, especially the end. XD
Well, finally got the GM again, and this is a result:
Me: Would be nice to get a play by play starting from the actual beginning
DM: They went through the upper floors, got some loot (insane amount of gold from the vault they managed to open) got a few magic items, got teh "Master key" for some magic panels all over the tower...
DM: Once they went downstairs they heard some rustling/growling, kinda like a big cat, they encountered the Manticore and Lamia trying to get through a door(specifically the manticore tearing at it with no progress being made) and as The Wizard goes down, he's spotted by a young lamia looking out from behind the mother
DM: The mother ushers her back, holds the manticore back from attacking, asks in an obvious user's way if he knows a way through the door(it's a lone pony exhibiting intelligence and wearing magic items, lamia's hate humanoids, but aren't dumb enough to let the clues go by that this is an intelligent creature)
Me: "User's way" What?
DM: her sole interest in the new face was whether or not he could be helpful
DM: otherwise he's not important
Me: Ah, as in she was seeking to "Use" him
DM: a user-using people.
Me: Got it
Me: Huh, surprsingly polite for a CE
DM: NE =p
DM: though that wasn't known at the time, apparently.
Me: Right, NE
DM: A Lamia hates humanoids and blames humanoids for the curse that makes them the way they are-the exact history isn't known, only that they're kinda like the medusa story.
Me: Well, The Oracle did ask you what Lamia's were alignment wise, you gave him teh answer
Me: he couldn't ask you what these specific ones were, that'd be Metagaming
DM: he asked based on the knowledge check he made, yes.
Me: Ah, but he didn't sense motive
DM: none of them did, really.
Me: Which was the apropriate one to use on these
Me: 50/50 on if I would have, I like to think I would, but I might not to not take up too much time since 1-2 checks were already made.
DM: however, the Lamia itself had no quarrel with an Equine (The Wizard)
Me: Until mister shiney angel coems down teh stairs
DM: and immediately works on killing her.
Me: No Diplomacy?
DM: all he was concerned with was stats-wise she was a threat. And no, no diplomacy was made
Me: Well, that's one gauranteed thing I would have had an issue with, and done differently
Me: Hell, anoteyhr chatacter I played tried to Diplomacy a frikking Mimic
DM: lol
Me: Got a 20, didn't work though :/
DM: I hear it's a handle animal check in such cases.
Me: Ah, could be, have to check
Me: She wouldn't have succeeded then, no ranks, not a class skill
Me: Well, so The Oracle attacks
DM: Once The Wizard is asked if he can get the door open, he infact replies(confirming his sentience) that he can. A path is made, with the Lamia's urging the manticore who grudgingly draws back, and then when The Wizard opens the door, the manticore tries to bull rush through. The Wizard, anticipating trouble, manages to reflex a web spell down to defend himself-it only hits the lamia and cub, the manticore breaks right through it and tries to charge through
(The Wizard drops the opening and lets the door slam shut, letting the manticore take damage slamming his face into it. I honestly should have told him he used his surprise action on the web, but wasn't thinking properly at the time)
DM: Initiative is rolled and The Wizard drops another web, this one enveloping the manticore. The Oracle charges down, demanding The Fighter to do the same, and-...attacks the lamia... not the manticore who is now clearly upset with The Wizard, but the Lamia
Me: Did the Lamia betray the Pact, or did the Manticore do it on it's own? How intelligent are Manticore's?
DM: Manticores are intelligent enough to speak, and no pact was actually made-it just wanted to bust through the door to get to someone behind it. This was also made clear earlier-there is someone behind the door they claim "Stole" something from them
Me: Ah
DM: The manticore wanted to get in there after them
Me: Okay, so we could be mediators, neat
DM: yeah, so much for that =p
DM: I said there was the "Potential" for combat.. In ever said it was required
Me: Depends, might still be able to pull of something
DM: I never*
Me: Schroedinger's Lamia, until I roll that Heal check, I don't know if she's dead
Me: She's both dead and alive right now, the Lamia Limbo as it were
DM: as the fight went on, I trusted (and The Oracle claims, misheard) some info from the two veterans on how the spell web would work to hold them down and what check type to use. My rolls were absolutely abyssmal, making all 3 mobs perpetually and utterly defenseless the entire "fight" where they hardly even made an action. The lamia continually attempted to pull the cub out of the webs (while being stabbed to death mercilessly) the manticore kept rolling 1's and getting himself caught only further into the web, and the cub spent the whole time screaming and crying.
DM: WHILE her mother was being stabbed by the "angel" and shot by “you”
Me: ...
DM: The Fighter was understandably very uncertain how to handle this, he was very upset with the outcome.
Me: wait, all three mobs? wasn't the Manticore free?
DM: The manticore was hit by the second web
Me: Oh god, forgto about The Fighter
DM: and kept rolling 1's, making his predicament that much worse
Me: I'll have to talk to The Fighter on Monday
Me: Why didn't the Lamia surrender?
DM: She was being instantly assaulted by hated humanoids who, in her mind, are no better than demons
Me: Ah, better to die than be enslaved
DM: would you seriously surrender to a demon?
Me: Nope, I'd fight it to the end, or off myself if the difference in power was to great, and I couldn't make it kill me as a result of fighting it
DM: she spent every round trying to get her cub out of the webs, and with what I read only AFTER the fight, she had already succeeded early on, I was using strength checks instead of CMB checks due to The Oracle talking about webs needing str checks..
DM: He claims he gave me all the info, but I never heard anything about CMB
Me: It could go either way honestly (In terms of logic)
Me: I mean in which check to use, not about which one was heard
DM: I figured I'd trust the veteran players in whatever they were doing.. I'm honestly feeling rather betrayed as far as the results go, with the mage hands and web spells
Me: What about the Mage hands, how did that work?
DM: He cast 3 mage hands in order to grab on and attempt to call shot the lamia's neck, causing bleeding damage and a fort save vs silence/choking at a dc of 10+damage dealt, but they didn't actually deal damage so it was an easy DC 10.
DM: They were talking like it was a thing -_-
Me: Wierd, cause the reactions on the thread (Paizo)so far (Do not link to them! XD) all are pretty "WTF? Mage Hands?"
DM: The Wizard was upset it wasn't instant death-he's fortunate I was stupid enough to let him get away with what he did at all
Me: You do know why The Wizard is mad right?
Me: It's not cause he couldn't do it that way
Me: It's cause he didn't want what you went with
Me: His character is opposed to causing pain and suffering
Me: And "Painlessly snapping a neck" was borderline as it was
DM: I went basically with what The Oracle said to do, again, my stupidity made me too trusting.
Me: Now, he just throttled and choked someone, compleyely against how he see's his character
Me: It wasn't just that he couldn't cnap the neck, it's that he got stuck doing something he really, really didn't want to do
DM: understandable.
DM: The Oracle was more like "Alright, more damage"
Me: Honestly, it looks like mistakes were made all around. Maybe you really should roll it back? As much as I hate the idea? And from now on, people need to have thier spell information with them.
DM: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207575
DM: probably best.
DM: scratch that... it would be best to have spells listed.
Me: Hm, wait, better idea
Me: have our cake, and eat it too
Me: rewind to the part where The Orale just attacked the Lamia, and no further
Me: Er, The Oracle
Me: That way, the party doesn't get the benefit of hindsight
Me: Or use of OOC knowdedge
DM: I'd have to ask if everyone's on board with that
Me: BUT all teh mistakes haven't happened yet
Me: Cool. :)
Me: I wouldn't allow beyond The Oracle's reaction, it'd be broken
DM: as for neck snapping, I think it would be better if it required a succession of Grapple checks..
Me: Though, I personally want him to have to deal with this for better or Ill, His character has far too much a thing against Evil
Me: I don't want to save him from having to deal with teh reprecussions of his action, so you might want to take my idea wit ha grain fo salt XD
Me: he didn't make a mistake, he RPed his character, with a slight amount of Metagaming
Me: What was the very first game mechanic/rules mistake?
Me: Disregard the surprise round actions one
DM: round 1, the order goes The Wizard, The Oracle, The Fighter, and then mobs for initiative. The first mistake was probably my lack of awareness for the web spell's full conditions, it was a CMB vs Spell DC, not just strength check strength check all day on the damn thing
Me: Alright, go back to the start of combat then
Me: Best of both worlds
Me: And, since combat has already started, we can't just Diplomance our way through
Me: ...much as I'd prefer too
DM: we'll have to see, again, I'll have to ask..
DM: Based on who arrives to the next session
Me: The Fighter, Me, And The Wizard would vote to reverse. Unsure about The Oracle. I'm mostly afraid he'll try to be extremely peaceful and hippy as a result of last session, and use OOC knowldge :/
DM: ...I think as far as neck snapping goes... I think that I'll give it this chance-if a Grapple check succeeds, following that they manage to "PIN" the enemy, they are then allowed to use Death attack or Sneak attack against them at a -5 to CMB to make the check and hold the grapple afterward... Doing this without sneak attack? Well... I'll have to think on that
Me: Figuring out how Mage Hand interacts with it migh be useful too
DM: hell, actually, that being a neck attack, it should probably be -10
DM: sheesh..
Me: I dunno, still seems dangerous
DM: at that point it's not automatic success, and being pinned basically makes you vulnerable to sneak attacks anyway..
Me: The whole mage hands thing seems like it was Macgyvered together
Me: An act of desperation, unsure why The Wizard did it
Me: or more accurately
Me: unsure why he didn't prepare ahead have something set up for him to do in this situation
DM: because he doesn't have attacks otherwise-and The Oracle said "It's chaotic, kill it" -ingame-...
Me: if he wants to attack, he should get some attacks
Me: Not use what is traditionally a non attack ability to do otehrwise, I'd check to see if mage hands can be used like that
DM: honestly this whole thing is a learning experience for me
Me: Yeah, a learning experience in frustration and distrust XD
DM: unfortunately, yes...
Me: Well, you have my vote, as long as it doesn't free The Oracle from his poor decisions, I'm on board
Me: Though I'd prefer it not be phrased that way if it coems up >_>
DM: Understandable.
Me: I've just had problems with his character since he treated those NPCs like crap. he has good reasons for doing it IC, I get his backstory. But thier are consquences, and I want his character to have to deal with them. How he deals is up to him. He can stay the same as he is, the big powerful inhuman angel. Or he can become more human, and help those in need, not just defeat evil. Up to him, his character, and I don't mean to dump on his character or set him up in anyway. I just don't want to give hi ma get out of bank free card.
Me: Well, guess that's it for now, back to work. or more accurately, a walk, and then work.
Dude....Just dude.
After reading this, no one is ever taking control over my characters but the GM. It's just one of those things that won't end well even with a retcon.
If you start at the beginning of the fight, the Oracle could make the argument that he won't attack this time and that it would be better to just start over entirely because the surprise round was messed up anyway. And if you start from the where last session left off, two characters get their personalities destroyed.
Couple things I'm confused with, was the Wizard there in person? Or just his character? Why was his character there if his player wasn't? Was he ghosted too? Was he being scryed on like your character?
Dude....Just dude.
After reading this, no one is ever taking control over my characters but the GM. It's just one of those things that won't end well even with a retcon.
If you start at the beginning of the fight, the Oracle could make the argument that he won't attack this time and that it would be better to just start over entirely because the surprise round was messed up anyway. And if you start from the where last session left off, two characters get their personalities destroyed.
Couple things I'm confused with, was the Wizard there in person? Or just his character? Why was his character there if his player wasn't? Was he ghosted too? Was he being scryed on like your character?
Wizard was there.
Why?