If you like die rolling... like really love it. Must have it, crave it in your soul... stick to something that reduces variance.
1d4 + 10 for all stats. -2 to a stat of choice, +2 to a stat of choice. This will generate an average score of 12.5 with a range of 9 to 16. With a high probability of getting a 16 if one wants, and most characters will have very comparable scores.
For higher fantasy, use 1d4 + 11. For awesomely Op fantasy use 1d4 + 12. For gritty fantasy, use 1d4 + 8 or +9.
Honestly?
I think people are overreacting here with the "equivalent point buy values".
The thing is, once your character has his core attributes (Str/Dex/Con for melee types, Dex/Con for ranged, Casting Stat for casters, etc.) filled out, everything else is just icing.
So your characters have a few extra points in Int, Wis, and Cha on top of that. So?
I say try and roll with it. You'll need to beef up some encounters, sure, but it won't be as game destroying as some here would have you believe. I had a game of Gestalt characters using 4d6 drop lowest I ran a while back that nobody rolled lower than a 15 on any stat on (except the poor Barbarian, who rolled a 13 or less on everything. I just gave him a better stat array).
Not as hard to rebalance as you might think.
Seems like everybody is suggesting point buy, so let me be the voice against reason and say the following:
Is point buy balanced and fair? Yes
Does it ensure that everybody at the table has a reasonable spread? Yes
Screw that noise. I lover rolling stats. Whether I end up with that magical character that has 2 18s, the character with a 6 and a 7, or just that character who is horrifyingly mediocre, the very epitome of the farmboy who picked up a sword, it's more fun to me.
But you do have to reign it in, I'd suggest the 4D6 drop 1 method, but if you are going for a high power campaign where the players are going to be expected to get along without much assistance, you can also go with 5D6, drop 2, or the Focus and Foibles.
Focus and Foibles: Pick 1 stat, that stat is an 18. Pick 1 stat, that stat is a 14. Then roll for the other 4 stats as 1D10+7, giving them a range between 8 and 17, with an average sitting around 12 or 13. Reasonably high powered characters, solid for MAD, but not appropriate for every game by a long shot.
Wow. I haven't seen a negative charisma since the days of AD&D's Deities and Demigods. I wonder if someone was thinking along those lines, not realizing that doesn't work anymore.
Fair enough, that's what I'd like to do (make them re-roll and most like what I will do). But let's say everyone was adamant they didn't want to re-roll right away and maybe just wanted to play around mini-style with these guys? I think having two sessions where we just sat around rolling characters and re-doing the tedious stuff may be demoralizing for them. That's my biggest worry.
What would be a good way to throw a challenge towards them that either wasn't too easy or too unforgiving? Just for them to get a taste.
As a new GM, you are going to find it very difficult to challenge PC's with really high ability scores without having a very good chance to create a TPK.
Having said that. Your talking first level and since all of you are new their tactics and choices will probably be sub-par So they might not just stomp all over everything anyway. I guess what I would recommend is just adding say 50%-100% to the hit points of all the opponents so they just last a bit longer. They won't do more damage each round so they shouldn't be too lethal.
After you finish Fallen Fortress you say, "Ok that was just a taste to see if we understood how the game was played. Having learned a bit, I realize those ability scores are way too high. Rebuild your PC's using 15 point buy just like the book suggests since that is the assumption used in writing the modules." If they throw too big a fit, let them talk you into a 18-20 point buy.
I really don't recommend rolled stats for a new GM. Especially with any method that allows for incredibly high and low numbers like rolling d20's would. You actually got kinda lucky in the fact that they are all high. It is much worse when you have both really high and really low in the same group. It becomes very difficult to challenge the high PC's while not killing the low PC's.
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Let the new player have his Drizzt clone. Heck, you can even give him a figurine of wonderous power and then show his this feat to make his (not-so) inner fanboy gleeful.
I have an off-subject question: What is the Archives of Nethys? Is this a person's houserules blog for their own game? Is it a rules subset of Pathfinder for a group of different gamers using the site? I can't really figure out what it is....but I have seen some really interesting things on there and wanted to find out more.
Can't be a Drizzt clone if he's evil.
Since I actually ran my last PF campaign with a 4d6 type method which equaled out to around a 28 pb in the end I can chime in with actual RL advice. Its not as simple as simply tossing on advanced templates or adding in extra monsters to BALANCE it out. In the end it just doesn't work out that way. What I found out was some encounters it worked out but more often then not they where eaither still to weak or just worked to well for some making them grossly overpowered. I also found that this works way better for melee types and underminds spellcasting. In example saves never seemed to scale right and seemed really wonky saves seemed to always be made on both fronts. I had to tailor EVERY single monster in an app, which is a lot of work for even a GM with 20 years in the field. I always found myself alwyas trying to find that sweet spot for moding npcs and monsters with adcanced templates, increased cr, extra class levels to the point it became rediculous. Advanced ogre barbarians, advanced fae rogues, half dragaon minotaur rangers. It got to the point yes I could hit it right a few times but players were always on edge and never really knew what they were truely fighting. Plus it was damn near a full time job doing all that modding, in the end it was just to much work and hell for me. Plus in the end if your just upping the enemy power level its basically just creating extra math. If players get a +4 then enemies get +4 for balance. Why not go with pcs get +1 so enemies get +1 so now the game moves faster cause there's less bloat to add up. Also if your players are new how are they supose to get used to pathfinder if the party wizard is as strong as the average ogre or the fighter is as smart as a naga, because monsters use a 15 point buy, which is exactly why the apps are written for a 15 pb. Another bad thing about rolling stats is players are very unequal. So even if a moded monster is just right for one player it will destroy another pc and makes tailoring encounters even harder. Now that I'm running a 20 pb no stat can go under 10 the game runs smoother and my prep time is reduced to a fraction, which is huge when you have... a job. Unless you plan on making gming your full time job then my best advice is to go 15 pb atleast untill you and your players learn and get used to PF.
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My arrogance is my favorite, it is better than everyone else's. :)
Also, yes, most MONSTERS don't use color spray or sleep. Now if a caster comes out then, well, looks like the party has something to do if the caster survives for more than one charge.
Also, you're welcome. *forced kissing*
Yeah, there certainly are no monsters for which having a bad Wisdom would be a weakness against....
I agree with How Fortuitous. So many people saying "do point buy" and such. Maybe it is due to me enjoying, like it's typed, my enjoyment, of having my role-play more realistic. When is everyone on equal footing? Are there people smarter than me? Sure hope so. Are there people stronger then me? If not, construction workers are in trouble. Who wants to be equal overall? I want to be memorable! Well at least in-game. I want characters that shine in areas!
Yes, they can shine in both ways of doing stats. Just seems more realistic to have gaps in characters, just as we have gaps between everyone on these boards. They are all new(ish) to Pathfinder, let them find what they like and have fun doing so. :) Best of luck to you and your group, OP!
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Let the new player have his Drizzt clone. Heck, you can even give him a figurine of wonderous power and then show his this feat to make his (not-so) inner fanboy gleeful.I have an off-subject question: What is the Archives of Nethys? Is this a person's houserules blog for their own game? Is it a rules subset of Pathfinder for a group of different gamers using the site? I can't really figure out what it is....but I have seen some really interesting things on there and wanted to find out more.
Since I run the site, I can answer this.
The Archives of Nethys is a compilation of all the 'crunch' in the Pathfinder Companion, RPG, Campaign Setting, Module, and Adventure Path lines. There are no houserules or 3rd-party material, all the material is straight from the Paizo-produced books.
That said, the tools I wrote (Magic Item and Background Generators) do have *some* of my own interpretations in them, but primarily use the random rules already provided in Ultimate Equipment and Campaign.
As I use the OGL and CUP (no stores or anything associated with the site), I am able to use the real names and Golarion-centric information.
It is a bit slow at times (I've been looking into other hosts) and the updates don't come *as* quick as I'd like. I abide by Paizo's request to wait 2 weeks after a book is out in stores before posting its material online, but am not always able to have things up right then if there are a lot of books in that month. For example, I was able to have the books up relatively close to the mark two months ago, but last month I had the Bestiary 4 to deal with and ended up being a couple weeks later. I'm only one guy, so it happens. :)
If you have any other questions, feel free to email me: asknethys at karuikage dot net
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Yes, they can shine in both ways of doing stats. Just seems more realistic to have gaps in characters, just as we have gaps between everyone on these boards. They are all new(ish) to Pathfinder, let them find what they like and have fun doing so. :) Best of luck to you and your group, OP!
Both point-buy and rolling are equally realistic in this respect. Once the stats are generated you cannot tell what method was using. You can guess that someone with all high stats used dice, but cannot be certain he didn't just have a high point buy. A set containing an 18 and three 5s may have been bought, but the dice can just as easily roll that array themselves.
If point-buy is producing 'unrealistic' characters, whatever that means, it is the fault of the players, not the rules.
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Let the new player have his Drizzt clone. Heck, you can even give him a figurine of wonderous power and then show his this feat to make his (not-so) inner fanboy gleeful.I have an off-subject question: What is the Archives of Nethys? Is this a person's houserules blog for their own game? Is it a rules subset of Pathfinder for a group of different gamers using the site? I can't really figure out what it is....but I have seen some really interesting things on there and wanted to find out more.Since I run the site, I can answer this.
The Archives of Nethys is a compilation of all the 'crunch' in the Pathfinder Companion, RPG, Campaign Setting, Module, and Adventure Path lines. There are no houserules or 3rd-party material, all the material is straight from the Paizo-produced books.
That said, the tools I wrote (Magic Item and Background Generators) do have *some* of my own interpretations in them, but primarily use the random rules already provided in Ultimate Equipment and Campaign.
As I use the OGL and CUP (no stores or anything associated with the site), I am able to use the real names and Golarion-centric information.
It is a bit slow at times (I've been looking into other hosts) and the updates don't come *as* quick as I'd like. I abide by Paizo's request to wait 2 weeks after a book is out in stores before posting its material online, but am not always able to have things up right then if there are a lot of books in that month. For example, I was able to have the books up relatively close to the mark two months ago, but last month I had the Bestiary 4 to deal with and ended up being a couple weeks later. I'm only one guy, so it happens. :)
If you have any other questions, feel free to email me: asknethys at karuikage dot net
Thanks for the info. I am checking it out and so far LOVE what you have going on here. I think the next campaign will be "If you find it on AoN, you can use it". Good job compiling a ton of info.
Yeah, there certainly are no monsters for which having a bad Wisdom would be a weakness against....My arrogance is my favorite, it is better than everyone else's. :)
Also, yes, most MONSTERS don't use color spray or sleep. Now if a caster comes out then, well, looks like the party has something to do if the caster survives for more than one charge.
Also, you're welcome. *forced kissing*
And--here I would have suggested a young harpy.
"What is that sound? Why is the orc barbarian walking off? eh, maybe he needs to pee."
Kill everything orc barbarian is never seen again, or maybe he is--plot twist!
The Allip actually has to fight the party whereas the young harpy can just pick them off as they come within 300 feet. They could be 300 feet up, hiding, all sorts of fantastic things.
Come come now, get into the mind of the murderer, think like the murderer, be the murderer, because then you know what you probably shouldn't do unless killing people is your goal.
You are the GM... you let this happen. You should understand basic number averages when dice are involved. At the very least, you should have tested the method prior to letting everyone do it.
Anyway. I suggest using a more standard method of rolling stats, if you must. 4d6, drop lowest. I REALLY prefer point buy though. 20 points is good.
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You are the GM... you let this happen. You should understand basic number averages when dice are involved. At the very least, you should have tested the method prior to letting everyone do it.
Anyway. I suggest using a more standard method of rolling stats, if you must. 4d6, drop lowest. I REALLY prefer point buy though. 20 points is good.
I appreciate the "scolding" 72 messages into the thread.
Problems solved, people ^_^ read the rest.
The Allip actually has to fight the party whereas the young harpy can just pick them off as they come within 300 feet. They could be 300 feet up, hiding, all sorts of fantastic things.You might look at the babble special ability.
60-ft radius
Effected creature is standing in place fascinated by the sound.A Fascinated creature can be shaken out of the fascination as a standard action by an ally. This is essentially forcing the fascinated ally to automatically succeed on his will save and not be subject to the save again.
The Allip can attack, but by doing so the fascinated creature essentially saves automatically.
vs
300-ft radius
Effected creature is "captivated" which isn't a condition, searching for synonyms offers fascinated. Therefore the effect is the same as fascinated save for it has other special conditions like "ignores attacks by enemies" and "Walks towards the harpy". Since I assume that "captivated" = "fascinated with conditions" then an ally can shake a creature out of it per the fascinated condition.
Effected creature walks towards the source of the song--the harpy--and gets a second will save if they go into harms way.
Basically it is
The Allip gets one free hit, and then the effected creature is immune for the babble effect, but otherwise the creature just stands there for some time then is able to act.
The Harpy gets to split up the party, and can coup de grace one target due to it "offer[ing] no resistance to the harpy's attacks."
Sure, the Allip does wiz damage, and on a crit it could kill Mr. Kill-everything-in-one-hit orc, but considering the first thing he ~should~ buy is something that increases his resistances, and that an ally who makes the save could just snap him out of it means it shouldn't be very useful for the Allip.
If you argue that the allip attacking or someone shaking a character out of the effect does not effectively make the character save vs the effect then an allip could wipe a party by itself if everyone rolled one save poorly which would put it in my list of crappy monsters that should be rewritten or deleted from the system altogether.
A Dm of mine had me roll stats once. My lowest was a 12 and I got 3 18's. His rule was that any 18 you get past the first one is downgraded to a 17, and if you somehow manage a fourth 18 it gets downgraded to a 16.
I ended up with 18-17-16-15-12-12, as a cleric very OP, but still, minor tweaks here and there. We did do the very generous roll 4d6 drop lowest reroll 1's.
Two words: Point Buy.
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Sure, the Allip does wiz damage, and on a crit it could kill Mr. Kill-everything-in-one-hit orc, but considering the first thing he ~should~ buy is something that increases his resistances, and that an ally who makes the save could just snap him out of it means it shouldn't be very useful for the Allip.
I argue that babble combined with incorporeal will give the allip the two rounds it needs to take out Mr. Kill-everything-in-one-hit orc.
Also, harpies do not get to coup-de-grace their targets as they are not helpless.
Roll? Or Point Buy? If people really can't decide between either stat system, why not just use both?
4d6 minus the lowest to generate initial stats. Then look at the numbers. Are they lower than what you'd get with a 20* point buy? If so, then bump them up. Are they higher than what you'd get with a 25* point buy? Then lower them.
*Insert whatever point values you like.
This gives the random generation that dice rollers like while avoiding results that might unbalance the game.
Just my 2-cents worth, anyway.
Sure, the Allip does wiz damage, and on a crit it could kill Mr. Kill-everything-in-one-hit orc, but considering the first thing he ~should~ buy is something that increases his resistances, and that an ally who makes the save could just snap him out of it means it shouldn't be very useful for the Allip.I argue that babble combined with incorporeal will give the allip the two rounds it needs to take out Mr. Kill-everything-in-one-hit orc.
Also, harpies do not get to coup-de-grace their targets as they are not helpless.
This is where we should slap Paizo on the hands until they ensure the rewrite all of their horribly written monsters.
1/2 the DMs say it can coup de grace because it "offers no resistance to the harpy's attacks," and the other half suggests that it just rolls damage.There are some who even suggest that "captivated" is like "paralyzed" but only towards the harpy.
Basically, they need to stop using words that are not in their system and instead use words that are. If something gives a status effect then use the name of the status effect and not a synonym. Similarly, there is actually an disagreement as to if a Red Dragon can be boiled to death just because the word is "boiled" and not "does fire damage".
Yes...200 degree water totally hurts a Red Dragon that can swim around in 4000 degree lava. Perfect sense.
Use stirges against people that dump CON.
They will never do it again.
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I'm going to jump into this thread with my own experience. I've been playing/DMing in home groups since D&D 3.0 and I've done both the 4d6 method and also the point buy.
For the rolling method, we would do 3 sets of 4d6, dropping the lowest d6 each time and then choose which set they would want to use. If a player ever had a total stat modifier (before racial) equal to or less than 1, then they could reroll that set.
This method in my opinion is a pretty good method for good, trustworthy PCs, especially for first timers. Yes, you're going to get some over powered characters when comparing them to each other, but it allows for some pretty good stats.
After about 5 years of doing stats in this method (and also after 5 years of a bad group where people were VERY untrustworthy with the dice...), I switched groups and also switched to the point buy method. This creates characters that are equal across the board and doesn't allow someone to steal the spotlight and run with it the entire time. Even if you do 25 point buy and you have some pretty strong characters, there are going to be times that the barbarian will just have to step back and let the sorcerer do his thing and vice versa.
Also, here's some food for thought for the -2 neg charisma barbarian. Unless he takes specific feats (intimidating prowess) that allows him to put his strength into his intimidation skill, his intimidate is going to SUCK. Just because you have a low charisma doesn't mean you're scary, it just means people don't even want to acknowledge your presence.
TL:DR version - Both versions are good, but point buy gives everyone a chance to shine at some point during the campaign.
Hope this helps!
What's Kirthfinder TOZ?
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What's Kirthfinder TOZ?
Thanks for asking! Here's the link, and you can always find it in my profile.
Wow. I haven't seen a negative charisma since the days of AD&D's Deities and Demigods. I wonder if someone was thinking along those lines, not realizing that doesn't work anymore.
I was pointing out that it can be done, not that it should be done.
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Point buy really shouldn't be recommended as anything but an alternative when the very clear issue is that the rolling was done wrong.
The issue Weenks is having is the bizarro 7d20 method, not rolling vs point buy. Obviously 4d6 drop lowest is going to produce superior stats.
Before considering point buy, try rolling with the 4d6 method. Then if you don't like that, try point buy. Rolling isn't quite as evil as the 7d20 method suggests if you do it right.
I remember those days, "Yeah I totally naturally rolled all 18s with our 5d6 discard two lowest!"
The inherent problem with any rolling method is while there are averages, there are also possibilities of outliers. Really low rolls naturally tend to get approval to re-roll, but no one ever wants to reroll super high rolls.
Point buy is more 'democratic/balanced' and it generally results in everyone at the table being more or less ability score balanced, save for race choices, etc.
It's not as bad as you think. You can work around these incredible stats (AND, you probably should to keep fair equity with your players unless they also think they are too powerful) in your planned adventure by manipulating one or two of the following game elements.
1: Bump your trap, save and poison DCs up by 2-4. Give the bad guy's access to Invisibility, Enlarge, Bull Str and/or Cat's Grace. Make some encounters with incorporeal creatures. Somethings will be very easy for them, but a few slightly stacked encounters sprinkled in will level it all out on the whole.
2: Jury rig the prices and availability of gear (limit access to magic and buffs).
3: Start the game by poisoning their stats. They get the antidote and return to their godly selves on success.
4: Keep it just like it is but put them in Planescape (everything is tougher).
5: Mandate fixed hit point progression (per level HP increase like 1 pt for casters, 3 for martials, 2 for utility classes). They remain deadly threats to the world, but are kept in check by being squishy (interestingly, this mechanic also seems to foster more creative problem solving and role-playing).
6: Like others have said, go to point buy, but give them all vampire bloods potions that make their stats as they originally rolled them once per day (a Rage power analog).
7: START OVER, have them roll point-buy good characters and tell them that the character they just created are their enemies!
If you do keep these stats in play suggest using the slow progression XP track to keep the arms race to a minimum. As these classes go up and start getting synergy with each other the CR system will inevitably not scale correctly.
>rolling stats
>balance
Pick one. If you roll for stats, you have no right to complain about overpowered or under-powered characters.