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Hi all!
I am a DM, as far as it goes i really like this game but i would have really liked some class balance in the game. As it is right now it looks totally silly.
Here goes, i have a 4 man team of plyers, all of them level 10. I will call them A, B, C and D
First there is A. A is a summoner (synthesist), here are is main features.
AC 40 (10+3 dex+2 deflection+4 mage armor+ 14 natural+ 4 barkskin+1 dodge+2 shield)
4 claws attacks +20/22 with heroism each does 1d6+11
1 bite +19/21 1d8+11
and rend for 1d6+16
DR 5/good, immunity to fire (lol 2 points evolution) can fly using spells, auto cast haste and OP buffs like bull's strenght and greater evolution surge to grow big, granting himself +8 strenght,+6 con and reach.
something like 180 HPs
His feats include something to get -1 attack/+1 AC, power attack for low armor monsters and some other things. He also has near to 0 equipment other than an amulet of mighty fists +1, a cloak of resistance +2 and a belt of strenght +4
How should i even deal with a beast like that? No one in the group, no even B that has some silly fighter with awoseme dex (18+2 human+4 belt+2 level= 26) with dex weapons and dex damaging weapons can deal havok like this man. He is usually just AC 28/30 when taking full attacks and hits for 21/16 (1d6+13)x2 swords.
B can make mincemeat out of CR 9 monsters, can take some punishment with AC 30 after full attacks and 125 HPs but is still nowhere near the synth.
Then we have C, a cleric usually heal botting/buff spamming and getting in melee when really needed, he also has ungodly AC thanks to holy avenger class (until they hit him, but at ac 40 it is a bit difficult)
Lastly, we have D, a monk. This guy is rather useless, sure he deals nice damage when using his flurry but he hits less frequently than the others and his AC is embarassing, something like 25, monsters usually hit him on a 4+ on the d20.
I've tried putting them against CR 14 (advanced iron golem) and they blasted it, they gave the golembane scarab acquired when they were level 6 to the synth, he had haste and bull's strenght up in one round (haste from himself, strenght from cleric) and got in melee. War drunk a potion of cat's grace and got in melee. the poor golem didn't last long.
He needed an 11 to hit the OP synth, when he did he just caused him 20 damage (25-5 from DR), while he got hit frequently (ac 32 vs + 25 to hit) and got killed after 3 rounds (2 actually, 1 was getting in melee and PC's buffing like hell), did some damage only because the war was getting auto hitted or almost.
God if even a CR 14 monster can be laughed at i don't know how to deal with them anymore, help me please.
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The synth is well built the rest are not; Dex fighter is basically the worst thing you can do with the fighter, healbot cleric is the weakest type of cleric, and ahahaha, a monk trying to do something, how cute.
What you should do: buff the others. Give the fighter some really buff epic agile weaponry and armor, possibly sit down and rebuild the monk, and just gently nudge the cleric tobe more proactive.
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Synths are silly, your other players seems to be balanced agaisnt each others.
I recomend to ask the player of the synth to make another character.
Well for what i have seen the dex fighter deals out punishment.
They usually have some potions of cat's grace for him, plus haste he gets 33 AC when doing full atk for 1d6+15 damage per strike, critting on a 17-20 and for a total of +24/+24/+24/+19/+19. Only high Dr monsters (like the golem) can really take his full attack.
Monk is useless, i rarely attack him with the monsters so he can stay alive and play, otherwise he is screwed.
Healbot is just that, yeah it sucks he could have been stronger. When he really wants to do some melee he gets the party wide haste, casts divine power on himself and tries to do something, but that's not really good.
@nicos i wouldn't like to have the synth make another character, he is a nice player and since he is already so strong gets only minimum loot by his own free will (he has less than half his WBL, left the rest to the others). He just choose a class he liked, found out a really simple way to become something like a monster.
By rules, his Char would be CR9. Not even CR13 monsters usually can get in his way, how would that be balanced?.
Use the monsters that are the GRAND BALANCERS of all parties: anything that inflicts Negative Levels.
Preferably things that target touch instead of armor.
Remember: if a synthesist is targeted by anything that targets him then both the synthesist and the eidolon are targeted. You could say that so long as the eidolon is out it gains the negative level instead, which is a valid argument, but keep in mind that once that eidolon dies the summoner is going to be pretty useless.
SO, ANYTHING that does energy drain is useful here. You kill the eidolon for the day, and it doesn't get a save VS the negative levels until it is later. Even if it "dies" force it to make saves against the negative levels when it comes back to find out which ones went away and which ones are permanent until he gets restoration cast on it.
Remember, using enemies with energy drain is the DM's way of threatening characters that are powerful. The sythesist might have 180 HP, but it can only accrue 10 negative levels before dying, and the Eidolon can only accrue 8, and if any become permanent then that just lowers the required total to kill it.
For what i have seen the only way to deal negative levels against a char with good saves is a silly spell called E something, a necromancy ray with no saves dealing 1d4 negative levels.
Yeah, that would work, but that would work against anybody. Ranged touch attack that can be easily maximized or empowered with no save (it's only level 4 if i rememeber). But that spell is broken, i will try that only as a last resort.
and healbot always readies at least one restoration.
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Aaaand this is the reason why I don't allow summoners in my home games. Honestly, I'd just ask him to make a new character - if you're uncomfortable with that, then try ramping up the CR a bit to make things more difficult, and avoid monsters like golems and mindless undead.
Sure, they make great beat sticks against most parties, but they don't really have much in terms of tactical options - an iron golem can breathe some poison, and then charges in to smash things to bits. Monsters, in my experience, typically aren't challenging to parties because they can deal a lot of damage. They become challenging when they have options and tactics available to them OTHER than just running in and smashing things in the face.
While I am aware that certain classes like syntesist can be troublesome, you have to check every math in those cases. 40 AC at level 10 is alot to say the least, but like I said, it's possible to achieve.
After you have established that everything is correct on their character sheets, you have two options:
a) Rescale the game. Put limits to what players can take, for example:
- Certain classes aren't for this and that type of campaign.
- 20 point buy instead of 25.
- Minimum and maximum lowest stat at generation of character.
These are examples, not what I am telling you what to do.
b) Remake and rebuff encounters. If players want to play hard and nasty, go with hard and nasty. There is nothing that they can create and that you can't do better. I am not talking about adding single advanced iron golem. I am talking about going so large as to going with three or four advanced iron golems (figuratively speaking). This might seem drastical, but few of these harder fights will give you insight of how to challenge your party.
This option has a single big flaw, which is why I am not recommending it; less useful players like your monk buddy will feel completely neglected. They won't be able to compete with these types of encounters and your syntesist player, so it's up to you to decide.
Malag
Thanks for the quick replies.
His sheet is completly legit. he could have been stronger, but he has left some of the loot to his friends.
He is already made out with a 20 point buy sistem. his stats are str 8, dex 8, con 20, int 12, wis 14, cha 18 (this includes the +2 from levels)
I'm really at a loss, i think the only way to solve this is to make him change character.
Paaizo should pay more attention to what they release anyway.
@Mister in fact next fight will probably be a group of evil adventurers, they willf buff each other and cast OP necromancy rays like enfeelbment and the E thing. But i can't make all the fights like that, i took me hours to make that group and i don't have all that time.
That's a very good point, Malag. You have to remember, your goal here shouldn't be to -kill the party off-, but to create encounters that are challenging and engaging for the entire party. If you're going to ramp up the difficulty of encounters, try to find some ways to make the monk feel included - which will probably be difficult, since the summoner can do so much.
Again, I'd probably just ask the summoner to remake his character - he seems to be the actual problem player in terms of skewing game balance. The Fighter sounds like a Swordlord archetype/PrC, which is a little scary but not too bad. Healbot is pretty standard. Monk could use a little DM lovin' if anything.
Vampires and spawn deal negative levels. The spell you are thinking of is enervate. Fourth level spell ranged touch.
Fighter actually has a two weapon fighter archetype. Gets his armor up under full attack, weapon mastery on full atks, reduces (later negates) penalties for 2wpn fighting.
Vampires and spawns have to hit his stupidly high AC. Sure better than nothing, i could pitch him against four vampires, if they all hit one in the round he gets -8 negative levels, i'll just have to make them hit him.
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
First step....
AUDIT THE EIDOLON.
Read up on all of the rules used in making the character and his pet, and check it out yourself. You SHOULD have an up to date copy of the player's character sheet.
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LazarX wrote: First step....
AUDIT THE EIDOLON.
Read up on all of the rules used in making the character and his pet, and check it out yourself. You SHOULD have an up to date copy of the player's character sheet.
I have rebuilded the eidolon myself checking if everything was all right, found that he could have been much stronger (he has no pounce, spnet some bad evolution points here and there) decided to keep it for myself.
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Now now, saying "You cannot play this class that I allowed you to play because NOW I think it is broken is the DM's way of saying, "I am not creative enough to deal with this issue. You win sir, you win the game. Now, smugly watch me grovel before you."
So, further tips on dealing with your Sythesist:
GHOUL TOUCH, yes, ghoul touch. Now-now, let me explain.
Add an NPC to the game who is a necromancer, now have him specialize entirely on necromancy, have him pick up Spell Focus(Necromancy), and greater spell focus(Necromancy), and then heighten spell.
At level 10 he should have int 21 (15+2(race)+1[4th]+1[8th]+2[headband])
This translates to a base save of Ghoul touch DC 18 (10+5[attribute]+2[spell level]+1[SF{N}]+1[GSF{N}]
add in Heighten spell and it become Ghoul Touch DC 19.
Now, why does this matter?
You can put Ghoul Touch in Spell Storing Armor.
Ehh? Ehh? Get me, yet?
So, you have this necromancer use HIS money to buy his headband, or not, and then use his gold to outfit his minions with cheapy spell storing armors, then he casts his super-duper-ghoul-touch of doom spell into them and BOOM, make a save on hit.
Failed save means Coup de Grace on Eidolon, which means no more eidolon for the day.
Oh, Woe is the Summoner!
Another method is a Witch who Slumbers the Synthesist. If he falls asleep the Eidolon goes bye bye until he spends 10 rounds summoning it again.
Taku Ooka Nin wrote: Now now, saying "You cannot play this class that I allowed you to play because NOW I think it is broken is the DM's way of saying, "I am not creative enough to deal with this issue. You win sir, you win the game. Now, smugly watch me grovel before you."
So, further tips on dealing with your Sythesist:
GHOUL TOUCH, yes, ghoul touch. Now-now, let me explain.
Add an NPC to the game who is a necromancer, now have him specialize entirely on necromancy, have him pick up Spell Focus(Necromancy), and greater spell focus(Necromancy), and then heighten spell.
At level 10 he should have int 21 (15+2(race)+1[4th]+1[8th]+2[headband])
This translates to a base save of Ghoul touch DC 18 (10+5[attribute]+2[spell level]+1[SF{N}]+1[GSF{N}]
add in Heighten spell and it become Ghoul Touch DC 19.
Now, why does this matter?
You can put Ghoul Touch in Spell Storing Armor.
Ehh? Ehh? Get me, yet?
So, you have this necromancer use HIS money to buy his headband, or not, and then use his gold to outfit his minions with cheapy spell storing armors, then he casts his super-duper-ghoul-touch of doom spell into them and BOOM, make a save on hit.
Failed save means Coup de Grace on Eidolon, which means no more eidolon for the day.
Oh, Woe is the Summoner!
Another method is a Witch who Slumbers the Synthesist. If he falls asleep the Eidolon goes bye bye until he spends 10 rounds summoning it again.
basically, i have to throw away 4 monster manuals and come up with a strange move just to try and counter a single class. Nice work, paizo.
And he still has to fail his high fortitude save, that goes something like +12 (because he has to use the eidolon kinda low con score right? Otherwise it would have been higher)
Just say no to level drain. Seriously. It just stinks of singling out one of your players because you can't deal with him normally. If you cant just ask him to tone it down somehow (like not using/banning evoluion surge would be a good step imo), buff everyone else. Hand out a blessing from some celestial (or demonic, dunno what the general party alignment is) power that buffs base stats. The synthesist replaces his base stats, so he can't really benefit from this (and he is mostyl self buffing so more CHA really doesn't matter).
The problem with synthesist are that eidolons make a lot of rules exceptions and the archetype slaps tuem on top of a pc.
That said he actually looks like the most balanced synty I've ever seen. He only uses nat attacks and only has 4?. The only issue with him I can see is his ac. I'm also assuming he is large sized?
You have two options here. 1 ask him just to not cast mage armor which brings him closer to the other pcs or introduce enviromental constraints where being big is an issue.
Well you can do both really. Having to fight bad guys and deal wity enviromental challenges is often the best way to approach characters limitations tho. Being squeezed does aweful things to hit and ac tho.
Mojorat wrote: The problem with synthesist are that eidolons make a lot of rules exceptions and the archetype slaps tuem on top of a pc.
That said he actually looks like the most balanced synty I've ever seen. He only uses nat attacks and only has 4?. The only issue with him I can see is his ac. I'm also assuming he is large sized?
You have two options here. 1 ask him just to not cast mage armor which brings him closer to the other pcs or introduce enviromental constraints where being big is an issue.
Well you can do both really. Having to fight bad guys and deal wity enviromental challenges is often the best way to approach characters limitations tho. Being squeezed does aweful things to hit and ac tho.
He only gets big when he casts evolution surge. And by now, he did it only once and just for fun, he never really needed becoming even more OP.
He has 5 attacks, the maximum for his level, gets the sixth in haste. Throw in rend that is a basically auto hitting strike and he has 7.
he is lacking pounce, that is true.
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tryhardGM wrote: Hi all!
I am a DM, as far as it goes i really like this game but i would have really liked some class balance in the game. As it is right now it looks totally silly.
Here goes, i have a 4 man team of plyers, all of them level 10. I will call them A, B, C and D
First there is A. A is a summoner (synthesist), here are is main features.
AC 40 (10+3 dex+2 deflection+4 mage armor+ 14 natural+ 4 barkskin+1 dodge+2 shield)
4 claws attacks +20/22 with heroism each does 1d6+11
1 bite +19/21 1d8+11
and rend for 1d6+16
DR 5/good, immunity to fire (lol 2 points evolution) can fly using spells, auto cast haste and OP buffs like bull's strenght and greater evolution surge to grow big, granting himself +8 strenght,+6 con and reach.
something like 180 HPs
His feats include something to get -1 attack/+1 AC, power attack for low armor monsters and some other things. He also has near to 0 equipment other than an amulet of mighty fists +1, a cloak of resistance +2 and a belt of strenght +4
Bull's Strength gives an enhancement bonus to Strength. Same with the Belt of Strength. They do not stack. Audit the synth's sheet to find out how his AC is so high. Is he wearing an Amulet of Natural Armor and Amulet of Mighty Fists at the same time? That's not allowed.
You mentioned you audited his character sheet, but you might not be as familiar with the rules as you think. You should post that sheet here.
Quote: How should i even deal with a beast like that? No one in the group, no even B that has some silly fighter with awoseme dex (18+2 human+4 belt+2 level= 26) with dex weapons and dex damaging weapons can deal havok like this man. He is usually just AC 28/30 when taking full attacks and hits for 21/16 (1d6+13)x2 swords.
B can make mincemeat out of CR 9 monsters, can take some punishment with AC 30 after full attacks and 125 HPs but is still nowhere near the synth.
Then we have C, a cleric usually heal botting/buff spamming and getting in melee when really needed, he also has ungodly AC thanks to holy avenger class (until they hit him, but at ac 40 it is a bit difficult)
Lastly, we have D, a monk. This guy is rather useless, sure he deals nice damage when using his flurry but he hits less frequently than the others and his AC is embarassing, something like 25, monsters usually hit him on a 4+ on the d20.
I've tried putting them against CR 14 (advanced iron golem) and they blasted it, they gave the golembane scarab acquired when they were level 6 to the synth, he had haste and bull's strenght up in one round (haste from himself, strenght from cleric) and got in melee. War drunk a potion of cat's grace and got in melee. the poor golem didn't last long.
He needed an 11 to hit the OP synth, when he did he just caused him 20 damage (25-5 from DR), while he got hit frequently (ac 32 vs + 25 to hit) and got killed after 3 rounds (2 actually, 1 was getting in melee and PC's buffing like hell), did some damage only because the war was getting auto hitted or almost.
God if even a CR 14 monster can be laughed at i don't know how to deal with them anymore, help me please.
First thing, you shouldn't allow cheesy broken classes like the summoner in your game. There are ways to "fix the cheese", but this involves tailoring nearly every encounter to nerf the summoner. Worse, the synth is probably weaker than the standard summoner. Yes, it could have been worse! And don't get me started on the master summoner...
The summoner (and especially synth) are so complex that even the most fair and experienced player gets them wrong all the time. Of course this also means the most rules-lawyering DM can easily get it wrong too. I consider hard-to-understand rules poor class design, even if the class in question were balanced. A DM who wants to allow such a complex class has to learn the rules for it very strictly. If you don't want to do that, don't allow it. I'm not too familiar with the synth, so there's little practical advice I can give you about keeping it.
The fighter and especially monk in your group are quite weak. Dex-fighters are weaker than Strength fighters, and monks take a lot of optimization to make work.
It seems like your group is underequipped, which only hurts non-casters more than the synth and cleric. High-level monks might have trouble hitting, but by this point should have very high AC. (Monks make DMs cry.) Audit your character sheets to find out how much value of gear they have, then look up wealth by level to see how much they should have. Link to wealth by level: http://paizo.com/PRD/gamemastering.html Each 10th-level PC should have 62,000 gp of wealth.
The group has no wizard. That's a pretty big weakness. Also, synths don't get crazy high saving throw bonuses (unless they do, like I said I'm not familiar with that class) so use more spellcaster NPCs. AC and high attack bonuses and high damage mean absolutely nothing if you can't even see the wizard, who can by this level use Greater Invisibility and various nasty spells to bottle up or kill the synth or any other PC. Resilient Sphere, for instance, to bottle up the synth, cleric or both, then have the wizard's friends take on the fighter and monk. (After getting them properly equipped, of course.)
Like Mojorat says, enviromental challenges are good way to approach. Your monk player should shine there also if he invested in skills and saves a bit.
I remember when a single redcap crited party fighter with a scythe. Initially fighter had decent AC, but feint and squeeze penalty in the tight tunnel reduced his AC by around 8-10, enabling redcaps to slowly scythe him to death. A single hit for 96 damage basically instant downed him.
Malag
Didn't knew about the belt not stacking with bull's strenght, nice to know. Same for cat's grace and dexterity equipment.
He is not wearing an amulet of nat armor, he gets that up using barkskin.
They roughly have WBL of equipment in their hands, just the summoner is on the low end, anyway they have saved a bit to get a rod of lesser quicken to quick cast haste
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First, rethink your encounter design.
He's really not all that bad given what a cleric and wizard can pull at this level.
Look at his glaring weaknesses. His touch AC for example is quite low. I'm willing to bet the "useless" monk actually has a fairly decent one. So gunslingers and alchemists(who use force or acid bombs) basically win against him.
Stop sending in one brute monster against a 4 man group.
Play your enemies smart. If they sit there and get full attacked they deserve it.
Play around with concealment. A simple level 2 Fog cloud can let your enemeis survive longer by dint of miss chance.
Debuffs and status effects are your friend. Inflict them when necessary.
Dispel magic is never used enough.
As I remember it Syth cant ever get pounce anyways, its only available for quadrupeds and the synth is a biped. Also a big thing is that it is not a humanoid and an outsider, it is only which ever is worse for it in any situation, that rules out a lot of spells the last time i checked. Likewise throw an encounter at them in an enclosed space where he cant go big. Cant a banishment tear off his eidolon and leave him particularly squishy? How is his touch AC? Throw an undead gunslinger at them? I believe there is a template for those in beastiary 3.
tryhardGM wrote: Didn't knew about the belt not stacking with bull's strenght, nice to know. Same for cat's grace and dexterity equipment.
He is not wearing an amulet of nat armor, he gets that up using barkskin.
They roughly have WBL of equipment in their hands, just the summoner is on the low end, anyway they have saved a bit to get a rod of lesser quicken to quick cast haste
Barkskin doesn't last long, and takes a standard action to cast. He shouldn't have it up every fight. At the very least he should be spending an action to cast it, and that will allow enemies to attack him from range.
Even with an AC of 40 (!), the synth probably doesn't have a good touch AC. Wizards with Scorching Burst should be able to roast him... but he's immune to fire, so take a metamagic feat to change that fire into something else.
The monk has a hittable AC. That suggests he's not using WBL. Or maybe he's not using it properly. In Pathfinder, attack bonuses are gained by levels, but AC is gained mainly by equipment. Optimally buying that equipment is critical to having a decent AC score.
If the monk simply bought +4 Bracers of Mage Armor (16,000 gp), they're doing it wrong. For the same cost, they could buy a +2 Bracers of Armor (4,000 gp), a +2 Ring of Protection (8,000 gp) to get the same AC and still have 4,000 gp left over that could go to a Dex or Wisdom-boosting item.
Torbyne wrote: As I remember it Syth cant ever get pounce anyways, its only available for quadrupeds and the synth is a biped. Also a big thing is that it is not a humanoid and an outsider, it is only which ever is worse for it in any situation, that rules out a lot of spells the last time i checked. Likewise throw an encounter at them in an enclosed space where he cant go big. Cant a banishment tear off his eidolon and leave him particularly squishy? How is his touch AC? Throw an undead gunslinger at them? I believe there is a template for those in beastiary 3. i like the idea of banishment, i will try that. The gunslinger class is something i'm not really familiar with, i'm going to try that.
Dispel magic anyway seems the best way to deal with them, since they usually rely on buffs like haste,heroism and barkskin.
The thing that makes me a bit sad is that i have a whole collection of monsters and many of them get useless because they lack that kind of attacks. As told earlier, i lack the time to make every fight they make a fight against casters and other NPCs, i wanted to pick up some cool monsters and throw them against the party, but no. They will usually get squashed without making at least a level 10 caster (thing that thakes me about half an hour).
@kymera no the monk has mage armor up all the time, spent nothing on bracers. He has an amulet of mighty fists +3, a cloak of resistance +3, ring of deviation +3 and monk's robe. He also has some old school gloves of dexterity +2, i just thought that they could help. All in all he is somewhere around 25 or 26 AC
tryhardGM wrote: basically, i have to throw away 4 monster manuals and come up with a strange move just to try and counter a single class. Nice work, paizo.
And he still has to fail his high fortitude save, that goes something like +12 (because he has to use the eidolon kinda low con score right? Otherwise it would have been higher)
Incorrect: Bestiary 1 has the Lich.
The Lich might be interested in unlocking the secrets of the summoner arts. Remember, the paralyze is permanent. If the Summoner gets paralyzed the lich can then teleport away and wait for the party to decide that the summoner has indeed died and leave. Then the lich comes to collect his prize.
The ability to defeat the summoner is there, and within your CR. You just need to keep in mind that the entire point is for the PCs to win in the end, but with a challenge.
If your PCs are insanely good at fighting then add in lots of hazards, if they are insanely good at defeating hazards, then add in traps, if they are insanely good at defeating traps, then add in social bits that could have repercussions.
No character is insanely good at Fighting, traversing hazards, avoiding traps, AND being a socialite. The party might be, but not the single character.
Also, attack at night when they are sleeping, even if they are using Keep Watch to stay awake. Have them make someone with a small army angry at them, preferably your main villain, and have him try to have them assassinated.
Also, keep this in mind, your overall goal is NOT to defeat the summoner, it is the threaten the PARTY. Everyone should be being targeted equally if at all possible. Sure, the summoner will kill whatever he is fighting in 1 or 2 rounds, but the rest of the party will be struggling. The more they are damaged the more resources are spent supporting them.
One thing, minor but worth noting: if your synth and fighter have +4 belts, then casting bull's strength or cat's grace on them doesn't accomplish anything. They both provide an enhancement bonus (which doesn't stack with itself).
Synthesist characters are hugely disruptive to the game because they can be great at all things, especially with a 25 pt buy. You build the summoner for skills, buffing and healing; build the eidolon for combat and always wear it. I have yet to see one in a game where it didn't cause other players to feel worthless. It's by that measure that people keep suggesting you ask him to roll a new character.
That stated, there are ways to work around it. Level drain, incorporeal creatures, optimized spellcasters, anti-magic fields... Make some encounters multi-tier events, where something truly frightful engages the party monsters while a small horde of mooks swarm from multiple directions. The fighter and synth will likely hardly notice the additional mooks fighting them while they engage the huge threat, and there will be plenty to keep the monk and cleric busy. Not that easy to balance well, nor an ideal solution, but something worth trying to get a feel for it.
Taku Ooka Nin wrote: tryhardGM wrote: basically, i have to throw away 4 monster manuals and come up with a strange move just to try and counter a single class. Nice work, paizo.
And he still has to fail his high fortitude save, that goes something like +12 (because he has to use the eidolon kinda low con score right? Otherwise it would have been higher)
Incorrect: Bestiary 1 has the Lich.
The Lich might be interested in unlocking the secrets of the summoner arts. Remember, the paralyze is permanent. If the Summoner gets paralyzed the lich can then teleport away and wait for the party to decide that the summoner has indeed died and leave. Then the lich comes to collect his prize.
The ability to defeat the summoner is there, and within your CR. You just need to keep in mind that the entire point is for the PCs to win in the end, but with a challenge.
If your PCs are insanely good at fighting then add in lots of hazards, if they are insanely good at defeating hazards, then add in traps, if they are insanely good at defeating traps, then add in social bits that could have repercussions.
No character is insanely good at Fighting, traversing hazards, avoiding traps, AND being a socialite. The party might be, but not the single character.
Also, attack at night when they are sleeping, even if they are using Keep Watch to stay awake. Have them make someone with a small army angry at them, preferably your main villain, and have him try to have them assassinated.
Also, keep this in mind, your overall goal is NOT to defeat the summoner, it is the threaten the PARTY. Everyone should be being targeted equally if at all possible. Sure, the summoner will kill whatever he is fighting in 1 or 2 rounds, but the rest of the party will be struggling. The more they are damaged the more resources are spent supporting them. Will try. As it seems right now, they would have better made the summoner less OP.
The fact that the summone as yous say can "kill whatever he is fighting in 1 or 2 rounds, but the rest of the party will be struggling" means that it is completly wrong.
The rest of the group should be as awesome as he is, not getting their backsides kicked while he does all the job. A couple times they even let the synth go on own his against an enemy just to save rosources because that enemy could only get him on 15+.
I'm lucky enough that they are all adults and never whine about him being OP like hell, or it would have been a real mess.
Yeah you may want to look at why the monk is so weak and not "because he is a monk"
The last monk I played around that level had balanced stats and was self buffing to 34 or so ac with saves the synth only has in his dreams. He should have +16 or so to hit while flurrying and 4-5 attacks. But defensively he should be in line with the fighter. I would audit their wbl and other stuff ro see how above or below the baseline they are.
Edit going to revise my monk numbers but at lvl 9 20 str should be +16 to hit normally. Hasted flurry ki pt +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+8 his ac should float between the high 20s and low 30s.
Basically the synths ac is the issue. If bbeg can hit the synth 60% of the time and everyone else 95% of the time there's an issue.
tryhardGM wrote: i like the idea of banishment, i will try that. IMO that's something to avoid. It looks like (well, is) targeting just the synth. I'd prepare Resilient Sphere instead. You can lock up the synth with it, and if for some reason you don't do that (perhaps the synth was taken out some other way) you can lock up the cleric with that too. You're better off using flexible spells. Banishment ... isn't.
Quote: The gunslinger class is something i'm not really familiar with, i'm going to try that. Use it if you like, but some people don't like guns in their fantasy.
Quote: Dispel magic anyway seems the best way to deal with them, since they usually rely on buffs like haste,heroism and barkskin. Dispel Magic is a very good debuff. Note that it works on everyone, not just the synth.
Other cool debuffs include Glitterdust and Confusion. (If the synth attacks a fellow PC... that's funny to watch.)
Quote: The thing that makes me a bit sad is that i have a whole collection of monsters and many of them get useless because they lack that kind of attacks. As told earlier, i lack the time to make every fight they make a fight against casters and other NPCs, i wanted to pick up some cool monsters and throw them against the party, but no. They will usually get squashed without making at least a level 10 caster (thing that thakes me about half an hour). You don't need to spend a whole lot of time making caster NPCs. Just use the NPC Codex. Link: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/core/index.html
I burned out on running 3rd Edition long ago, and have only played Pathfinder, never run it. If something like the NPC Codex had existed back then, I might never have burned out.
You don't have to stop using cool monsters either. Just pair them with spellcasters. Say the caster charmed the monster. (Or, if the monster can charm things, have the monster have charmed the caster!)
Quote: @kymera no the monk has mage armor up all the time, spent nothing on bracers. He has an amulet of mighty fists +3, a cloak of resistance +3, ring of deviation +3 and monk's robe. He also has some old school gloves of dexterity +2, i just thought that they could help. All in all he is somewhere around 25 or 26 AC He spent all his defensive gear on a Ring of Deviation and a Gloves of Dex? Assuming you mean Ring of Protection, that's 18,000 gp! That's not remotely optimized. With the gloves of Dex, he's spent 20,000 gp on defensive items. He should split 20,000 gp among a Ring of Protection +2, Gloves of Dex +2 and a Wisdom-boosting item +2 and have 4,000 gp left over for something else. Unfortunately the Wisdom-boosting item might take up the same slot as the Amulet of Mighty Fists (which would take the same slot as the Amulet of Natural Armor) which just goes to show you how poorly-designed the monk is :(
Mojorat wrote: Yeah you may want to look at why the monk is so weak and not "because he is a monk"
The last monk I played around that level had balanced stats and was self buffing to 34 or so ac with saves the synth only has in his dreams. He should have +16 or so to hit while flurrying and 4-5 attacks. But defensively he should be in line with the fighter. I would audit their wbl and other stuff ro see how above or below the baseline they are.
How could he get to AC 34 is beyond me. He can't even wear the A.O.N.Armor because he needs the one of mighty fists.
mine has something like +3 dex, +3 wis, +3deflection, +4 armor, +3 class
getting him to 26. Sure he can spend a ki point to get to 30, but just for one round.
His saves are awesome, that's true.
@kimera he never payed for the gloves. Check with WBL and he should be there, in fact he has even more than he should, monk's robe and A.O.M.F +3 costs a lot.
Hot thread, lol... ADD leaves a lot of chances to be ninja'd
Ketsueki wrote: [ . . . ]Synthesist characters are hugely disruptive to the game because they can be great at all things, especially with a 25 pt buy. You build the summoner for skills, buffing and healing; build the eidolon for combat and always wear it. I have yet to see one in a game where it didn't cause other players to feel worthless. It's by that measure that people keep suggesting you ask him to roll a new character.[ . . . ] I always disagree with telling someone to roll another character because "it is too powerful."
So, to not go with the bandwagon of "Give up as a DM" I'll offer even MORE.
ILLUSIONS.
My favorite spells as the DM are illusions. Most of them do not give a save unless you interact with them. Now, here is a very important aspect: if you cast something like Still Image, and spend your standard concentrating on it then if the PC attacks it then they get a will save to disbelieve, if they fail then they attack again next round and get another save to disbelieve, and this continues until they succeed.
A Gnomish Illusionist with the feat that lowers the concentration tax to a swift allows a gnomish character to maintain the illusion as a swift so he can use his standard to do all manner of things such as cast spells.
The tools to deal with the summoner are there. For a direct approach use a true-dragon that breathes an element, and have it focus on the summoner with its breath weapon--it can spam it every round--so the damage is constant each round.
The point is to not give up as a DM. You don't need to include more powerful enemies, you just need to include the right enemies in the right environments to defeat the synthesist, and at the end of the day the Synthesist is really just a dangerous blob of hit points, and little else.
Also by his level he might have glory-seekers hunting him down to challenge him to a duel. By level 10 you probably have notoriety in every country you've been to, and rumors of your fame/infamy have spread to many part of the world via merchants and traders.
Perhaps there are other heroic characters who seek to make a name for themselves for killing the Summoner whose power is known throughout the world.
Perhaps this man will show up, be friendly with the summoner, speak up to him as someone he admires, only for him to then go and buy the necessary gear required to shut down the summoner and either kill him or make him kneel in defeat.
Touch attacks avoid that +16 natural armor buff and virtually always hit, also use spell casters with effects that have save for half effects-- the monk should be good, the fighter can absorb with his HP but it will be pretty threatening to the synthesist.
Also, remember. . . if D is weak then why would many monsters attack him? When you are fighting a group you take out the biggest threat first, right?
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Taku Ooka Nin wrote: Ketsueki wrote: [ . . . ]Synthesist characters are hugely disruptive to the game because they can be great at all things, especially with a 25 pt buy. You build the summoner for skills, buffing and healing; build the eidolon for combat and always wear it. I have yet to see one in a game where it didn't cause other players to feel worthless. It's by that measure that people keep suggesting you ask him to roll a new character.[ . . . ] I always disagree with telling someone to roll another character because "it is too powerful."
So, to not go with the bandwagon of "Give up as a DM" I'll offer even MORE.
ILLUSIONS.
My favorite spells as the DM are illusions. Most of them do not give a save unless you interact with them. Now, here is a very important aspect: if you cast something like Still Image, and spend your standard concentrating on it then if the PC attacks it then they get a will save to disbelieve, if they fail then they attack again next round and get another save to disbelieve, and this continues until they succeed.
A Gnomish Illusionist with the feat that lowers the concentration tax to a swift allows a gnomish character to maintain the illusion as a swift so he can use his standard to do all manner of things such as cast spells.
The tools to deal with the summoner are there. For a direct approach use a true-dragon that breathes an element, and have it focus on the summoner with its breath weapon--it can spam it every round--so the damage is constant each round.
The point is to not give up as a DM. You don't need to include more powerful enemies, you just need to include the right enemies in the right environments to defeat the synthesist, and at the end of the day the Synthesist is really just a dangerous blob of hit points, and little else. I don't agreee with the HP blob theory. He is an HP blob, with attacks as strong as a fighter or barbarian, with armor higher than both, with in built immunity to element for just 2 evo poits, in built damage reduction, in built spell such as fly, dispel magic and haste, better skills than the fighter, and an unbalanced evolution surge to get ultra strong if needed, or get some more elemental immunities (like hey, there is a white dragon! "guys, i just got immune to cold").
It is just wrong, sure there are ways to counter that, but it is just wrong.
Just going to throw out here that a regular summoner is more OP than a synthesist. Regular summoners get essentially the ability to move, cast a spell, use a swift action (for whatever, maybe quick spell or arcane strike on a bow or something), move his eidolon, have his eidolon make a full attack, have his eidolon arcane strike its natural attacks, and then take damage for his eidolon. They have essentially 2 turns a round.
But with OP synthesists (that are much more niche), I would recommend talking to your synthesist. Because he may be willing to tone down his character, giving it better skills or something in place of his stupid high AC and awesome offense, or giving it swim speeds and climb speeds for out of combat stuff, and it means you don't have to target one player, or make other players (hello monk) feel almost useless.
How big is the sythesis when combined? The stronger ones tend to be huge are bigger, and not every building/dungeon is going to be that big. Even being large will be a problem at time.
As for the monk, they can be made to do effective, but you really have to know the rules well, and it also often involves the use of an archetype or multiclassing.
On another note: The synthesis is easier to deal with than a normal summoner. It just looks better on paper, and they are not that difficult. The problem is that they are easier to optimize than front line combatants.
wraithstrike wrote: How big is the sythesis when combined? The stronger ones tend to be huge are bigger, and not every building/dungeon is going to be that big. Even being large will be a problem at time.
As for the monk, they can be made to do effective, but you really have to know the rules well, and it also often involves the use of an archetype or multiclassing.
On another note: The synthesis is easier to deal with than a normal summoner. It just looks better on paper, and they are not that difficult. The problem is that they are easier to optimize than front line combatants.
he is large when using evo surge, so ogre sized. most dungeons can fit that.
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Taku Ooka Nin wrote: "You cannot play this class that I allowed you to play because NOW I think it is broken is the DM's way of saying, "I am not creative enough to deal with this issue. You win sir, you win the game. Now, smugly watch me grovel before you." Not true. The synthesist is broken hence why it is not allowed in PFS play. It allows dump statting, which is what the player has done, something previously ruled out in pathfinder (when they changed how shapeshifting works).
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tryhardGM wrote: I don't agreee with the HP blob theory. He is an HP blob, with attacks as strong as a fighter or barbarian, with armor higher than both, with in built immunity to element for just 2 evo poits, in built damage reduction, in built spell such as fly, dispel magic and haste, better skills than the fighter, and an unbalanced evolution surge to get ultra strong if needed, or get some more elemental immunities (like hey, there is a white dragon! "guys, i just got immune to cold").
It is just wrong, sure there are ways to counter that, but it is just wrong.
Yes, he ~can~ attack stronger than a 2-handed fighter or a 2-handed barbarian IF all of his attacks hit, and if he is built to do a ton of damage.
A Barbarian built to do damage would tear a summoner apart at level 10, especially if it was an invulnerable rager. If he is of a race that is there to do a ton of physical damage--think Orcs--then he is probably just going to kill him without a problem.
For added-badassery make the barbarian a werewolf orc.
Now DR10/silver.
kaisc006 wrote: Taku Ooka Nin wrote: "You cannot play this class that I allowed you to play because NOW I think it is broken is the DM's way of saying, "I am not creative enough to deal with this issue. You win sir, you win the game. Now, smugly watch me grovel before you." Not true. The synthesist is broken hence why it is not allowed in PFS play. It allows dump statting, which is what the player has done, something previously ruled out in pathfinder (when they changed how shapeshifting works). PFS is trash, so what is your point? You cannot play the vast majority of races in PFS, I guess they are all unbalanced as well. You can't do any crafting, so I guess that is unbalanced as well.
The difference between PFS and Pathfinder is that the DM can actually create content that is hand tailored to deal with classes. In PFS the scenarios, modules, and adventure paths are set in stone.
Taku Ooka Nin wrote: tryhardGM wrote: I don't agreee with the HP blob theory. He is an HP blob, with attacks as strong as a fighter or barbarian, with armor higher than both, with in built immunity to element for just 2 evo poits, in built damage reduction, in built spell such as fly, dispel magic and haste, better skills than the fighter, and an unbalanced evolution surge to get ultra strong if needed, or get some more elemental immunities (like hey, there is a white dragon! "guys, i just got immune to cold").
It is just wrong, sure there are ways to counter that, but it is just wrong.
Yes, he ~can~ attack stronger than a 2-handed fighter or a 2-handed barbarian IF all of his attacks hit, and if he is built to do a ton of damage.
A Barbarian built to do damage would tear a summoner apart at level 10, especially if it was an invulnerable rager. If he is of a race that is there to do a ton of physical damage--think Orcs--then he is probably just going to kill him without a problem.
For added-badassery make the barbarian a werewolf orc.
Now DR10/silver. yes, orc barbarian is awesome, but orc is not a core race. Werwolves can't be players as far i know, and i wouldn't let a player get something like that.
And the barbarian at least can't fly on his own.
Sleep, attack him while he sleeps, silence to prevent him from summoning the synth mid fight, hold person, create pit, i mean you can really nutter him with little effort.
send a few invulnerable ragers with high dr at him, he wont be able to scratch them.
how i deal with synthesist summoners is:
1. sleep, hevens oracles are amazing at KO'n pc's. just color spray and bam no more synth
2. dr makes syns cry
3. attack reflex saves, create pit and other traps can take them out of the fight for a few rounds, and not nutter the character in the process
4. mirror match up, want to show a syn how annoying his 6 attacks per round for 500 points of damage is? build a synth thats 4 levels higher then him and use it as a bad guy, once it demolishes most of his party it might show him how bad the game is for you.
5. NINJAS!!! they will make a synth cry since they cant have an enormous perception, you can get a few sneak attacks in on him and make him stay on the defensive for the majority of the fight.
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Are the otehr 3 guys happy with their character? I advice agaisnt a competion in powergaming.
Taku Ooka Nin wrote: The difference between PFS and Pathfinder is that the DM can actually create content that is hand tailored to deal with classes Hand tailoring an encounter to nerf a character is poor dming and easy to do. Hand tailoring an encounter so each character can shine is good dming and often difficult to do. When incorporating an OP class like summoner, it can be darn near impossible. If hand tailoring an encounter requires a dm to nerf one character so the others can shine then there is a problem in his/her game.
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tryhardGM wrote: yes, orc barbarian is awesome, but orc is not a core race. Werwolves can't be players as far i know, and i wouldn't let a player get something like that.
And the barbarian at least can't fly on his own.
You let the Orc not being a core race stop you?
The Werewolf is a +1 acquired template that can be applied to any humanoid.
For a PC I would recommend you give them one level in an NPC class to offset the +1 template.
I recommend classes where a single dip is more or less a hit-dice that doesn't give anything really special, such as commoner/expert/aristocrat, since Adept gives spells and Warrior gives 1 bab.
Don't fear templates: they can add extra flavor to characters.
Part of being a good DM is knowing how and when you can bend or break rules, and, just to point this out, NOWHERE does it say PCs cannot take templates. It is sort of like honor in Dark Souls, people just came up with it.
kaisc006 wrote: Taku Ooka Nin wrote: The difference between PFS and Pathfinder is that the DM can actually create content that is hand tailored to deal with classes Hand tailoring an encounter to nerf a character is poor dming and easy to do. Hand tailoring an encounter so each character can shine is good dming and often difficult to do. When incorporating an OP class like summoner, it can be darn near impossible. If hand tailoring an encounter requires you to nerf one character so the others can shine then there is a problem in your game. Not to mention taht now thecampaing is just about how to hurt the summoner. It is not worthy.
Taku Ooka Nin wrote: tryhardGM wrote: yes, orc barbarian is awesome, but orc is not a core race. Werwolves can't be players as far i know, and i wouldn't let a player get something like that.
And the barbarian at least can't fly on his own.
You let the Orc not being a core race stop you?
The Werewolf is a +1 acquired template that can be applied to any humanoid.
For a PC I would recommend you give them one level in an NPC class to offset the +1 template.
I recommend classes where a single dip is more or less a hit-dice that doesn't give anything really special, such as commoner/expert/aristocrat, since Adept gives spells and Warrior gives 1 bab.
Don't fear templates: they can add extra flavor to characters.
Part of being a good DM is knowing how and when you can bend or break rules, and, just to point this out, NOWHERE does it say PCs cannot take templates. It is sort of like honor in Dark Souls, people just came up with it. Not really, the templates change the CR of something, not it's effective level. They are taylored for monsters.
Getting DR 10/silver and a ton of stats bonuses and natural armor among other things is something reserved for monsters, not PCs. Same goes for the half dragon and such things.
In 3.5 some templates had a character level adjustment that was usually way higher than the template's CR adjustment, and for good reason.
Anyway, we are getting of topic.
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Summoner (synthesist) is out of control, that's why it's banned in PFS. An acquaintance showed me a 13th level synth he created and it basically soloed an entire 14th level module. Fun? Fair?
kaisc006 wrote: Taku Ooka Nin wrote: The difference between PFS and Pathfinder is that the DM can actually create content that is hand tailored to deal with classes Hand tailoring an encounter to nerf a character is poor dming and easy to do. Hand tailoring an encounter so each character can shine is good dming and often difficult to do. When incorporating an OP class like summoner, it can be darn near impossible. If hand tailoring an encounter requires a dm to nerf one character so the others can shine then there is a problem in his/her game. So let me get this straight:
We have:
1 highly optimized and effective character.
3 poorly optimized and ineffective characters.
Are we supposed to be surprised that the optimized character is outshining them? Hell no, why would we be?
Here, try this, DOMINATION SPELLS.
The synth is considered BOTH of his race AND of the eidolon (So probably Humanoid and outsider) but it takes the worst possible effect. Dominate person will work on him, and then he will turn on his party.
Each round he is full attacking them he gets a will save to snap out of it.
If the OP feels that his current issue is a powerful character then he should act accordingly and find ways to remove the character with some form of crowd control or dominations. This, by virtue of him being unable to act, allows them all to shine.
However, after having been able to shine they might come to the realization that the Synthesist is integral to their success.
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