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The original post doesn't actually contain a question.
Try again by posting a clear question.
Be civil.
Thread closed.
Reposting as requested.
I am a tiefling alchemist, with the tiefling trait Claws. As I understand it, a full-round attack sequence would look like this:
Claw/Claw. or
Unarmed (x1) or
Weapon (x1)
A few levels later, I take two Vestigial Arms.
Before I took either Vestigial Arm, I had two claw natural weapons. The discovery specifically states, you gain no additional attacks.
A full-round attack sequence would remain the same as before the Vestigial Arm, and that would be still:
Claw/Claw. or
Unarmed (x1) or
Weapon (x1)
I understand that it would not be:
Claw/Claw/Unarmed/Unarmed nor
Claw/Claw/Weapon/Weapon nor
Claw/Claw/Unarmed/Weapon nor
Unarmed/Claw/Claw nor
Weapon/Claw/Claw
A few levels later I take the discovery Feral mutagen, craft one, then drink it.
What would an all natural weapon full-round attack sequence consist of?
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Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw
You're not getting extra attacks from the arms, you're getting extra attacks from the claws.
Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw
You're not getting extra attacks from the arms, you're getting extra attacks from the claws.
But where is the 2nd set of claws? On the arms?
Since vestigial arms don't grant any additional attacks, I'd say you could do claw/claw/bite.
It can be a bit confusing, but what it boils down to is this:
You don't get a natural attack from the arm, but you can use it to wield a weapon. Even if you are weilding 4 swords though, you don't get extra attacks from doing so... just as much as you don't get any extra attacks when wielding 2 weapons. You get extra attacks from the two weapon fighting feats, but that is a separate issue.
So, purpose of the feat? Well you get an extra free hand, so you can use it to make extracts or prepare and throw bombs while your other hands are occupied.
Wierd combos of weapons should also be doable (but this is debated)
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The rules state that the arm doesn't give you any extra attacks per round. Does this mean that they can't be used to gain additional attacks, or that the arms themselves don't provide any additional attacks (such as additional unarmed strikes)? I find the use of give ambiguous.
I believe you are allowed to make an additional attack roll with a Vestigial Arm, when a different effect gives you one. The discovery says you can make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine.
Example: Cast haste on the alchemist.
The Vestigial Arm should be allowed to make the attack that haste gives you.
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You don't get a natural attack from the arm, but you can use it to wield a weapon. Even if you are weilding 4 swords though, you don't get extra attacks from doing so... just as much as you don't get any extra attacks when wielding 2 weapons. You get extra attacks from the two weapon fighting feats, but that is a separate issue.
I believe the OP is in agreement with you, but the question that is being asked, is whether the natural attacks feral mutagen would give you would stack with Vestigial arms.
which is very similar to your statement of two-weapon fighting feat gives you the extra attack, it's not the arms giving you extra attacks, its the mutagen
Bite/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw
You're not getting extra attacks from the arms, you're getting extra attacks from the claws.
But where is the 2nd set of claws? On the arms?
Since vestigial arms don't grant any additional attacks, I'd say you could do claw/claw/bite.
That's my point. The arms are not granting the attacks, the claws are. The arms are just providing a place for the claws to go. It's not the same at all.
Parallel Example:
Eidolons can buy an extra head as an evolution. It does not add any attacks. An Eidolon can buy a bite as an evolution. The bite adds an attack, but needs a head to go on. If an eidolon wants two bites, it has to buy a second head first so the bite can go on the second head.
This is what is happening. An alchemist with two claws still gets claws from the feral mutagen, they just can't do anything because they have to occupy the same space as his natural claws. Adding vestigial arms does not give you more attacks, but it does give you open space to add more claws. The claws go on those arms, and now the extra attacks from the claws can be made.
The vestigial arms do not add additional attacks, they simply allow another ability to add them.
But that extra head does not have wording that says it can't make additional attacks. In fact, it has wording that specifically states that it can. So while the vestigial arms has restrictions placed on it, the head has privileges granted by its wording. So using the head evolution is a rather poor example, since very different language is used.
Also, using eidolons in general are poor examples. The rules are built around creating a monster that you can use, not around making a playable PC. A lot of those rules had to be worded with quadrupeds and other nonhumanoid bodyshapes in mind (the infamous arguments about whether claws can be placed on feet comes to mind)
Its a tough question.
The feral mutagen states that you "gain two claw attacks"
It also never states that these claws actually occupy your hands, but the real issue here are:
1) Vestigial Arm states that you can use the arm as part of your attack routine, using two-weapon fighting. What is actually listed here seems to indicate that you can ONLY make attacks with this arm when using TWF. In which case, you would have to treat your claws as manufactured weapons. Furthermore, the extracted list of things the arm can do is: Hold/wield a weapon, hold an item, wear a glove and wear a ring. If this is a real set of limitations, then make a natural attack is NOT on the list. This could go as far as to say that you cannot make unarmed strikes with this arm. Still unclear.
2) A much debated issue. Is a mutagen a polymorph effect? There are countless reasons to believe that it IS, but it isn't listed as one. If it IS a polymorph effect, then your original claws would be overridden by the new claws (as they are attached to your base form) when using feral mutagen.
3) stranger still, however, would be the question of possibly stacking feral mutagen with a sorcerer's dragon bloodline power to grow claws, as that class feature is specifically called out under the Transmutation rules as an ability that CAN be used while polymorphed.
4) I think, however, that the final determinate factor here is the rules on stacking. These are similar effects. We already know that you can have a bite attack and then gain a bite attack with the new bite overriding the old. I think that in this case, much like Having evasion as a class feature and then gaining it through a spell, the stronger effect takes hold and overrides the initial class feature.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the one with the highest strength applies.
Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
An eidolon grows an additional head. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for the additional head, but the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon). This evolution can be selected more than once.
An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon’s base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
Both the head and limbs evolution specifically say they can grant you additional attacks, where as vestigial arms specifically say they don't grant you any additional attacks. So that's a very bad example.
The answer should be simple, can you make all those attacks without vestigial arms? If yes, then no problem. If no, then they are granting you additional attacks.
I think the other thing to point out is that having 4 clawed limbs does not necessarily grant you 4 claw attacks. Cats are a good example of this. They can get 4 claw attacks conditionally, because 2 of their attacks are stuffed into the Rake ability. This is often true for Pounce creatures. On a regular full attack, the Cat gets bite/claw/claw even though it has 4 claws on its body.
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I think the other thing to point out is that having 4 clawed limbs does not necessarily grant you 4 claw attacks. Cats are a good example of this. They can get 4 claw attacks conditionally, because 2 of their attacks are stuffed into the Rake ability. This is often true for Pounce creatures. On a regular full attack, the Cat gets bite/claw/claw even though it has 4 claws on its body.
A cat has 4 clawed limbs in the description text. Description text is not a game mechanic.
The animal stat block of a cat lists that it has two claw natural attacks.
The natural attack sequence (in the core rule book) says you can take a natural attack with all natural weapons. It would be reasonable to assume that to mean, of the four clawed limbs a cat has, it only has two claw natural weapons.
If you took two different abilities that grant two claw natural weapons, it's possible that they replace each other, but if you have 4 hands available, why would they?
Okay, but again, something likee an allosaurus gets 2 talons on a Rake, but not during its regular attack. Are we to imagine that it grows talons suddenly when it charges? Clearly those ARE natural attacks possessed by the creature, but their use is conditional.
The question here is a bit cloudy, I will grant that, but when you gain a bite attack and already have one, it replaces the bite attack you already have. It doesn't grant you another. Obviously we are working under the assumption that you need 1 limb per natural attack.
But I think the actual rule in place here is that you can't "gain" something that you already have, and if you do, the stacking rules come into effect and you just take the stronger effect.
So, a big cat. It has 4 limbs and a head, right? I can clearly use the Sorcerer's "Claws" ability while polymorphed. So lets say I am a beastshaped sorcerer. The stat block for a Tiger gives it 2 claws and a bite, so I use my claws ability. Can these claws be 'placed' on the back legs of the cat, giving me 4 claws and a bite on a full attack? And therefore 6 claws and a bite when I pounce?
My answer would be the same. You already have 2 natural weapons. When you gain these claws, they will just replace the claws that you already have, because this is a similar effect and they shouldn't stack together.
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When you have a bite attack, and you gain another, I agree. It replaces the other one (or you use the better). This had been talked about in a FAQ. It said unless you grew a second head. Doesn't that imply if you had a second valid location for the natural weapon to be, they would go there?
Legs cannot grow claws. They would need to be talons.
Both the head and limbs evolution specifically say they can grant you additional attacks, where as vestigial arms specifically say they don't grant you any additional attacks. So that's a very bad example.
Let me just bold additional lines there and see how bad an example it is.
So, it's pretty similar. But even besides that, the point is that the claws give the attacks, not the vestigial arms. The arms just allow you to put the claws somewhere.
The answer should be simple, can you make all those attacks without vestigial arms? If yes, then no problem. If no, then they are granting you additional attacks.
That's not true, though. Just because the arms are necessary to make the attack does not mean that the arms are granting that attack. If anything, they're allowing the attack, not granting it, which is very different.
Look, do I think that the writer intended this to work? Of course not.
Do I think that the text allows it anyway? Yes, unquestionably.
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The answer should be simple, can you make all those attacks without vestigial arms?...
Is it that simple?
Can you hold a tower shield in one arm, a spear in another, and a sword in a third. With combat reflexes, could you take the combat action to set your shield, take an aoo of someone near you, and someone further away from you?
You can't do those combat actions without taking Vestigial Arm, but I don't see a reason in how it's written that you should be denied the ability to do that after taking it.
Is it possible that the can you do this before/and after argument is not applicable to every situation?
Both the head and limbs evolution specifically say they can grant you additional attacks, where as vestigial arms specifically say they don't grant you any additional attacks. So that's a very bad example.Let me just bold additional lines there and see how bad an example it is.
head:An eidolon grows an additional head. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for the additional head, but the additional head does allow the eidolon to take other evolutions that add an additional attack to a head (such as a bite, gore, or breath weapon). This evolution can be selected more than once.Limb:An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon’s base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once.Those are basically the same words as the Vestigial Arms line: "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks."
So, it's pretty similar. But even besides that, the point is that the claws give the attacks, not the vestigial arms. The arms just allow you to put the claws somewhere.
Did you read past anything you high lighted? Well, I moved the highlight to help with that. The sentences both go on to say that it can make additional attacks once they get natural weapons. That additional wording in those two evolutions allow for the additional attacks. The vestigial limb lacks such additional rules, and instead it has rules placing restrictions.
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Did you read past anything you high lighted? Well, I moved the highlight to help with that. The sentences both go on to say that it can make additional attacks once they get natural weapons. That additional wording in those two evolutions allow for the additional attacks. The vestigial limb lacks such additional rules, and instead it has rules placing restrictions.
If you don't mind, could I bring us back on track? What do you believe the full-attack sequence in the OP should be?
Follow-up question: What are your thoughts on this post?
Sorry, it was hard to keep up with all this since we are on three threads and a collective of over 200 posts.
But that generally seems to be within the logic of the arm. You CAN make attacks, but only by sacrificing other sources of attacks. So an alchemist with a set of cold iron, silver, and adamantine daggers could hold all three in his three arms and use TWF with any two of them without doing some strange hand off or juggling act between them.
Since haste could give an extra natural attack when normally only limited to one per natural weapon per round, I would say it would also be viable for switching out in a manner similar to above. But I disagree that natural weapons grant additional attacks when the limb they are attached to has the described restrictions.
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You don't get a natural attack from the arm, but you can use it to wield a weapon. Even if you are weilding 4 swords though, you don't get extra attacks from doing so... just as much as you don't get any extra attacks when wielding 2 weapons. You get extra attacks from the two weapon fighting feats, but that is a separate issue.
I believe the OP is in agreement with you, but the question that is being asked, is whether the natural attacks feral mutagen would give you would stack with Vestigial arms.
which is very similar to your statement of two-weapon fighting feat gives you the extra attack, it's not the arms giving you extra attacks, its the mutagen
But two weapon figthing don't give an extra attack. It only reduce the penalty when attacking with the secondary weapon. Anyone can attack with two weapons.
Vestigial arms to seem very clear: a humanoid creature is wired to attack with two arms. Vestigial arms add more arms but don't change his brain, so he can still use only 2 arms at a time to attack.
He can use the vestigial arms instead of his original arms, but he is still limited to 2 attacks with his arms.
When he get an effect that give him extra attacks, like haste or iterative attacks, the alchemist can make some of those attacks with the vestigial arms, but he is still limited to the number of attacks that can be made by any other character in the same conditions.
There is a problem with the feral mutagen:
Feral mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist's full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
"He gain two claw attacks and a bite attack" can be interpreted as "he gain two claw attacks and a bite attack extra attacks", but that isn't what the rule text say. As a general rule if something give you extra attacks with stack with the number of attacks that you already have it say that very explicitly.
I think that the implicit rule "he is still limited to the number of attacks that can be made by any other character in the same conditions" is still in effect. To bypass that implicit rule you need an explicit exception, like:Polymorph:
...
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks.
an exception that allow to get all the natural attacks of the creature and proficiency in them.
The answer should be simple, can you make all those attacks without vestigial arms?...Is it that simple?
Can you hold a tower shield in one arm, a spear in another, and a sword in a third. With combat reflexes, could you take the combat action to set your shield, take an aoo of someone near you, and someone further away from you?
You can't do those combat actions without taking Vestigial Arm, but I don't see a reason in how it's written that you should be denied the ability to do that after taking it.
Is it possible that the can you do this before/and after argument is not applicable to every situation?
Vestigial arms has given you extra AoO? No, it simply has allowed you to choose between two different AoO options.
Not differently from wielding a reach weapon and having the IUS feat. You threaten at range and in the adjacent squares at teh same time, but you are limited to the same number of AoO.|
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Both the head and limbs evolution specifically say they can grant you additional attacks, where as vestigial arms specifically say they don't grant you any additional attacks. So that's a very bad example.
The answer should be simple, can you make all those attacks without vestigial arms?...
You can add a further eidolon rule that has a very specific impact on those extra attacks:
Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.
The eidolon has a specific rule that give it a maximum number of natural attacks, adding attacks as he increase in level. The eidolon is crafted to have a large number of natural attacks, a humanoid isn't.
To be honest, it's fairly cut and dry to me.
Per RAW, the Vestigial Arms do not "give" extra attacks. The character can use attacks with the arm, and if you have an ability that gains an attack (like the Mutagen you describe), there should be no reason, both balance and intent, that this would not work. After all, there is no text that spells out "you cannot make attacks with the Vestigial Arms" (and if there is, can someone on the other side please cite it for me?).
Per RAI, it is debatable. Some people are of the belief that the Vestigial Arms should not be able to make attacks with them, not be able to use Natural Weapons with, etc. It is merely a belief after all, but realistically speaking, it's not like I can't see a mutant who has multiple limbs protruding from its body trying to grab and claw at whatever insect stands in its path or anything...nooo, that's way too ridiculous for a game of magic and fantasy!
Long story short: Your combination seems legit (to me), OP.
To be honest, it's fairly cut and dry to me.
Per RAW, the Vestigial Arms do not "give" extra attacks. The character can use attacks with the arm, and if you have an ability that gains an attack (like the Mutagen you describe), there should be no reason, both balance and intent, that this would not work. After all, there is no text that spells out "you cannot make attacks with the Vestigial Arms" (and if there is, can someone on the other side please cite it for me?).
Per RAI, it is debatable. Some people are of the belief that the Vestigial Arms should not be able to make attacks with them, not be able to use Natural Weapons with, etc. It is merely a belief after all, but realistically speaking, it's not like I can't see a mutant who has multiple limbs protruding from its body trying to grab and claw at whatever insect stands in its path or anything...nooo, that's way too ridiculous for a game of magic and fantasy!
Long story short: Your combination seems legit (to me), OP.
The Tentacle discovery is worded the exact same way and SKR has explicitly stated that it does not allow you to make additional attacks beyond those you could make before taking the discovery.
Its such a weird scenario... but I have to ask.
If character X has two natural claw attacks and a bite attack and then uses feral mutagen, outside of common sense and just looking at RAW, can you really say that they don't gain these attacks? There is ni 1 NA per limb limit (though most things are built this way). I cant find a 1 attack per limb limit written anywhere.
So the rules that prevent stacking are the only thing standing in the way of a beast totem tengu barb from having 4 claw attacks.... and if it works there it must work here. All the conecture aboit needing free limbs or being able to pick where your claws go is just that, conjecture.
So either the 2 armed barbarian gets 4 claws and so does the alchemist, or neither of them do.
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SKR is sufficient?
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I'm not going to get into specifics of comparing various monsters using weapons and natural attacks; monsters don't have to follow the normal rules for PCs and they're going to be inappropriate examples for determining what PCs are able to do because monsters break PC rules all the time ("how did that dark naga gain the spellcasting of a sorcerer 7 if it doesn't have any sorcerer Hit Dice?"). And like I said above, you don't just get to keep adding more attacks per round because you've found feats, class abilities, magic items, racial traits, or whatever that turn other body parts into natural weapons. The system isn't supposed to work that way and the individual parts weren't written assuming that you could just keep stacking feet, knees, elbows, wings, bites, foreheads, hips, and other body parts forever into a hundred-hit attack sequence.
...
I know, it is not sufficient because it is not the reply you want.
But I really doubt that you will get a different reply even if you continue to add thread about "I want to get more natural attacks".| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Tentacle discovery is worded the exact same way and SKR has explicitly stated that it does not allow you to make additional attacks beyond those you could make before taking the discovery.
And yet you did not read what I had typed. It's not the discovery granting you the attacks; the Feral Mutagen is. The Feral Mutagen grants two Bites and a Claw. If the PC has 4 Arms/Hands, 2 of which already have Claw Attacks, the 2 Claw Attacks the PC gains from the Feral Mutagen then go to the extra limbs.
The RAW text uses the word "gain," which by common general definition is to "acquire" or "come into possession of". To recount, the Vestigial Arm discovery does not make the Alchemist acquire extra attacks. Merely a limb. That's it. The Feral Mutagen does the rest, as the Feral Mutagen gives the attacks, not the Vestigial Arm.
If the intent of the ability was not to allow attacks of any sort to be done through these arms (as everyone seems to be on the stance of), the wording and structure of the ability would be changed in comparison to what it's written as now.
In addition, that would mean it's also no better than a Prehensile Tail Racial Trait; in fact, it'd actually be worse than that in terms of availability and practicality, which makes very little sense in realism, physics, and game mechanics.
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Duskblade and I had a monk argument awhile back and I was a bit stunned to think somehow a fighter could pull out three more attacks than a monk can just because of natural attacks from items and racial features.If the fighter had a bite attack and two wing attacks or something like that, that would be "three extra attacks", but they're not really "extra" attacks, and not really three of them. Because if the fighter wants to use clawed hands to make claw attacks, he's using that hand for claw attacks instead of a manufactured weapon attack, so that's no net increase in the number of attacks per round.
So in most cases it's not "three more attacks," it's one (a bite or an offhand claw) or two (bite and an offhand claw), but remember that the fighter (or any character) could instead attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand (such as a short sword) and make an unarmed strike with the other, so whether the fighter is doing
short sword/claw
or
short sword/unarmed strikeisn't a big deal.
As for the monk, well, that's from the weirdness that the monk can use any part of his body to make unarmed strikes. You don't even have to decide what body part you're using. A human monk making 3 unarmed strikes per round could be doing
bite/kick/punch
or
bite/punch/punch
or
kick/kick/headbuttand so on. And with that in mind, it makes sense that a monk with a natural attack like a claw or bite shouldn't get additional attacks per round in combination with natural attacks, because we're already counting a claw-hand as a weapon and a bite/headbutt as a weapon, just as we are for a fighter. The monk could be fighting with
bite/kama/claw
or
bite/kama/unarmed strike
or
kick/kick/kama
or
kick/unarmed strike/kamabut he's still limited to 3 attacks per round (or whatever it is for his level). When your whole body is a deadly weapon, saying "oh but I also have deadly claws and a deadly bite" doesn't make a difference because you already had deadly punches and a deadly headbutt.
As for "toothy" and "maw or claw" (which is what I assume you mean when you say "claw and maw"), I'm not sure how you're combining those because toothy is a half-orc racial trait, maw or claw is a tiefling racial trait. And even if you could combine them, and used maw or claw to gain 2 claw attacks, you're still having to use your claw-hands to make claw attacks, which means you're not using them to make weapon attacks, and you'd only be getting a bite attack from one source (even if you had something like the animal fury rage power, it's not giving you extra mouths, so you are only making one bite attack per round).
Much of this weirdness is inherited from 3E and how it drew a wiggly line between the definition and use of unarmed strikes and the definition and use of natural weapons.
I'm not going to get into specifics of comparing various monsters using weapons and natural attacks; monsters don't have to follow the normal rules for PCs and they're going to be inappropriate examples for determining what PCs are able to do because monsters break PC rules all the time ("how did that dark naga gain the spellcasting of a sorcerer 7 if it doesn't have any sorcerer Hit Dice?"). And like I said above, you don't just get to keep adding more attacks per round because you've found feats, class abilities, magic items, racial traits, or whatever that turn other body parts into natural weapons. The system isn't supposed to work that way and the individual parts weren't written assuming that you could just keep stacking feet, knees, elbows, wings, bites, foreheads, hips, and other body parts forever into a hundred-hit attack sequence.
I don't think that repeating the same thread some thousand time will change the reply.
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Nth attempt to post this.
Diego, I'm seeing your SKR quotes, a whole bunch of them.
I'm so sick of this topic, this is the third thread based on this same issue in the past 2 days.
The vestigial arms discovery, by itself, out of the box, does not grant additional attacks. However, shiny new claws do grant additional attacks, they just so happened to be attached to your vestigial arms. The extra attacks aren't coming from the vestigial arms, they're coming from the claws, the arms are just somewhere to put them.
I really don't understand why people are fighting this idea so vehemently, it's one of the only things that makes vestigial arm worthwhile.
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I'm so sick of this topic, this is the third thread based on this same issue in the past 2 days.
The vestigial arms discovery, by itself, out of the box, does not grant additional attacks. However, shiny new claws do grant additional attacks, they just so happened to be attached to your vestigial arms. The extra attacks aren't coming from the vestigial arms, they're coming from the claws, the arms are just somewhere to put them.
I really don't understand why people are fighting this idea so vehemently, it's one of the only things that makes vestigial arm worthwhile.
So, the claws at the end of he vestigial arms grant attacks like the manufactured weapons at the end of the vestigial arms grant attacks?
No, sorry, they don't work that way.
The feral mutagen grants claw attacks because your normal arms don't have claw attacks. The fact that feral mutagen is worded as "grants claw attacks" does not override the vestigial arm limitation that they "don't grant additional attacks".
This issue isn't an innocent misunderstanding, it's a deliberate misreading to attempt to get more than the rules allow you to get.
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It seems that we've gone off topic.
The question asked is specifically about the natural weapon full-attack sequence of the initially mentioned alchemist.
Before the Vestigial Arm, and after the arm, the number of attacks is the same. In number, quantity, and type. No additional attacks, or effects have been gained by taking the discovery.
All the talk of daggers, weapons, other discoveries and whatnot is indeed valuable, but does not offer an answer to the OP. Perhaps one of the many other threads about those topics would be a better fit for that discussion?
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This thread has not gone off-topic, as the issues about manufactured and natural weapons are one and the same.
You freely admit in your example that you couldn't get four attacks. How is four attacks (in which two are equipped with weapons) any different than four attacks in which all four are claws? In short, you can't. The purpose of vestigial arms is to provide options: have different weapons ready to account for different creature types, have potions/bombs ready to go, have extra arms to carry stuff and still be able to make all of your attacks.
So, can you have claws at the end of your vestigial arms? Sure, but you can't make any more attacks than you could without the vestigial arms. The fact that the feral mutagen says it grants you " claw attacks" is irrelevant. The description is written towards a standard PC race that normally doesn't have claws. Vestigial arms is written for a normal PC race that is a humanoid with only two arms. Don't conflate the issue and think that jut because the vestigial arms have claws, that you get any more attacks.
I'm so sick of this topic, this is the third thread based on this same issue in the past 2 days.
The vestigial arms discovery, by itself, out of the box, does not grant additional attacks. However, shiny new claws do grant additional attacks, they just so happened to be attached to your vestigial arms. The extra attacks aren't coming from the vestigial arms, they're coming from the claws, the arms are just somewhere to put them.
I really don't understand why people are fighting this idea so vehemently, it's one of the only things that makes vestigial arm worthwhile.
So, the claws at the end of he vestigial arms grant attacks like the manufactured weapons at the end of the vestigial arms grant attacks?
No, sorry, they don't work that way.
The feral mutagen grants claw attacks because your normal arms don't have claw attacks. The fact that feral mutagen is worded as "grants claw attacks" does not override the vestigial arm limitation that they "don't grant additional attacks".
This issue isn't an innocent misunderstanding, it's a deliberate misreading to attempt to get more than the rules allow you to get.
I argue the side you oppose, and I have never once stated that the Vestigial Arm discovery grants attacks. Actually, I directly said that it doesn't "give" attacks, as what the ability says. It's an extra limb. Not many humanoid creatures have 3 or more arms; in fact, most of them are probably Monstrous Humanoids if they do have them. If the intent of adding extra limbs to a Humanoid creature in the form of a class ability was to be absolutely useless (it's actually more useless than a Prehensile Tail going by your ruling) and not do anything that it could realistically do, why even have it in the book? Why even call it an arm or a hand, why not just make the Alchemist only be able to grow ugly pustules that lower his Charisma because he looks so ugly it's how horrible you make the ability out to be?
Limbs for iterative attacks doesn't increase the amount of iteratives you make; that's something that scales with a class' BAB, not with the amount of limbs you have. Wherever anybody is getting this "more limbs = more iterative attacks" is going by houserules, as there is no RAW to support their ridiculous claims.
Now then, it has been stated that you can make attacks with the limb, but the extra arm doesn't "give" you more attacks. You still have the same amount as you would with any other sort of weapon that doesn't enhance the capabilities of the Vestigial Arm you currently have.
But wait! The OP says that since he has 2 Vestigial Arms, he then applies a Feral Mutagen. This gives him 2 Claw Attacks and a Bite Attack. He already has 2 Claw Attacks from a separate source (not a class feature, a racial trait), and he has 4 Limbs that can realistically carry Claw attacks.
If anything, the OP's question isn't about whether the Vestigial Arm can make attacks, or be enhanced to be able to make Natural Attacks (because there is no RAW to say otherwise, and the intent of it not being able to do so is not reflected in the RAW whatsoever); it's more about whether he can have a total of 4 Claw Attacks and a Bite Attack. Would the Feral Mutagen be applicable to Vestigial Arms to grant the total he is seeking, or would it override the ones he already has?
That's the question that should be answered. Whatever silly argument is coming up from people who want to nerf Alchemists to the ground (who are already pretty weak as is) are afraid of what they think they're going to become; the nasty Synthesist Summoner, Cousin of the Mutation Alchemist. Not only is it silly, but also not even a fair comparison.
The RAW is pretty clear as to how the Vestigial Arms work. SKR's intent, even being a developer from Paizo, has zero reflection as to what the rest of the team put into the book the Vestigial Arm discovery comes from, so even if we take his word for granted, his view on the matter, while it does have weight, makes no sense as to what they have written in the book. The RAW is unclear, however, on whether the Feral Mutagen is applicable to other limbs besides those the bearer naturally possesses.
Personally, I don't see a problem with it across the board. The intent isn't really going against it (you already naturally have claws, plus you have 2 limbs you grew from your body that don't, so it's applicable to have 2 additional claws, since you're still enhancing limbs that are naturally already a part of your body), and the balance issue isn't really horrible; 4 Claw attacks at ~1D6 + Half Strength, plus a Bite Attack at ~1D6 + Strength, which is subject to a lot of DR, is the damage output I'd see from any other level 3 or 4 character. Later down the line, the DR is going to get to them, or the ability to not even use these attacks (due to being constantly kited or unable to effectively hit a creature).
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This thread has not gone off-topic, as the issues about manufactured and natural weapons are one and the same.
I respectfully disagree.
The number of natural attacks you can make is determined by the number of natural weapons you have.
The amount of manufactured attacks you can make is determined by your base attack bonus.
This is the basis for what makes them not just different, but very different.
For example, you can put a sword in each hand, and that does not allow you to make two sword attacks at full base bonus. (There are all sorts of limitations, and modifiers that you are subject to to do this)
Converse to this, if your hands become a pair of natural attacks, there are no penalties to taking an attack with each natural weapon at full base bonus.
This difference in the abilities is why the original question exists.
All of this is without vestigial arms even entering the discussion.
It's important that you treat these seperately, as they are not the same.
The "you gain a pair of claw attacks" grants you an additional attack at your full base attack bonus, due to it giving you a pair of natural weapons.
I'm surprised so many people think Vestigial Arm is useless without granting extra attacks. Can you really not think of any way two extra arms would help without having extra attacks?
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I'm surprised so many people think Vestigial Arm is useless without granting extra attacks. Can you really not think of any way two extra arms would help without having extra attacks?
Do our answers need to be safe for work?
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Diego, I'm seeing your SKR quotes, a whole bunch of them.
Yes, probably is something linked to the change of the Daylight saving hours and the synchronization between the forum and people living outside the US.
For me (and I think a lot of people in the EU, where the daylight saving hour was changed last Sunday, not this Sunday) the forum stopped updating at midnight West cost.I have flagged the extra posts as double posts.
I'm surprised so many people think Vestigial Arm is useless without granting extra attacks. Can you really not think of any way two extra arms would help without having extra attacks?
Let's test that theory.
Let's use 2 two-handed weapons and TWF? Oh, it's not the intent of TWF or the Vestigial Arms to do such a thing? Okay, let's just use a Huge-Sized Two-Handed Weapon. -4 to Hit, and your extra arms can't really make attacks with it anyway? Shoot. Perhaps I could hold extra items in them for emergency use. Darn, now they're exposed and the enemies can just hit them out of my hands? Yet Handy Haversacks and Prehensile Tails can hold on to items better and retrieve them faster than these lunky arms? Just what good are they for?
By their interpretation, the two extra arms do next to nothing. They don't provide extra strength, they don't provide the ability to hold anything in them (actually, they do, it's just easy to knock stuff out of people's hands), all they are is just extra limbs attached to you.
If anything, it should give penalties to Charisma/Charisma checks and to AC (all that extra hunk of flesh to aim at!) that's how useless it is. Prehensile Tails have more value than them with that interpretation, and they have equally effective uses in the methods that BigNorseWolf is implying.
At the rate they imply, the ability might as well be thrown out of the game, because they aren't arms, they're wastes of time (and money/discoveries).
So apparently now reading "no extra attacks" as "no extra attacks, even if you add claws to the arms" is just silly.