Clarification request: Natural Attacks and Alchemy


Rules Questions

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The Exchange

It doesn't say no attacks, it specifically says the arm can make attacks in a sequence.

If you receive an extra attack from haste, you can take it with a vestigial arm.

If the source of the extra attack is the arm, you cannot.

How do you believe the arm is granting you an extra attack?

In the OP, before and after the arm, all attacks are the same.

What extra attack do you believe is being listed in the OP?

Sczarni

adding claws to the arms is the same as adding two short swords...


Well there are some feats that were next to useless until they got eratta'd. So it shouldn't be that surprising if a discovery is found to be next to useless.

The Exchange

lantzkev wrote:
adding claws to the arms is the same as adding two short swords...

The rules as written explicitly disagree with this statement.

You can make a natural attack with every natural weapon you own in one full-attack sequence.

You cannot do that with a sword.

If you had wing wing claw claw bite tail slap, you take ALL of them.

If you had 6 swords, you have too many.


Dash Lestowe wrote:

It doesn't say no attacks, it specifically says the arm can make attacks in a sequence.

If you receive an extra attack from haste, you can take it with a vestigial arm.

If the source of the extra attack is the arm, you cannot.

How do you believe the arm is granting you an extra attack?

1) Because in narrative turns the arm is what reaches out and touches someone. You have to be able to move the arm in coordination with your other arms to effectively attack.

2) Because its the cause of the extra attack.

The Tengu with claw claw bite and ,feral mutagen and and is a draconic sorcerer growing their claws still only .. claw claw bite, because they can't grow a claw on their forhead, elbow, knee, etc. When the arm is what lets you go from claw claw bite to claw claw claw bite then its whats granting you the extra attack. Its the variable you changed to get the extra attack, so its whats granting you the extra attack. Thats WHY You're taking it.

Quote:

In the OP, before and after the arm, all attacks are the same.

What extra attack do you believe is being listed in the OP?

because without combining natural attacks and unarmed strikes he has claw claw bite. Without combining natural attacks and unarmed strikes and another unarmed attack, he's stuck at claw claw bite.

with combining natural attacks and unarmed strikes and two weapon fighting, he has claw claw bite kick kick. With combining natural attacks and unarmed strikes he's at claw claw bite kick kick... if the vestigial claw attacks its obviously additional (6 attacks)

Sczarni

Dash Lestowe wrote:
lantzkev wrote:
adding claws to the arms is the same as adding two short swords...

The rules as written explicitly disagree with this statement.

You can make a natural attack with every natural weapon you own in one full-attack sequence.

You cannot do that with a sword.

If you had wing wing claw claw bite tail slap, you take ALL of them.

If you had 6 swords, you have too many.

You're correct but wrong in your implementation.

In regards to this conversation it's the exact same.

If you do not have the ability to make 4 claw attacks without two extra vestigal limbs, you are doing the same as adding short sword attacks through your two limbs... extra attacks that are illegal.


Again, this argument is getting ahead of itself.

The question at hand is necessarily tied to a preceding question:
What happens when you "gain two claw attacks" if you already have two claw attacks?

The issue of how many limbs you have is irrelevant. Point me to the rule that says that each limb can make only one attack. Point me to the rule that says that you can pick which limb these new claws get attached to.

Lets say that I am a Tengu barbarian/sorcerer. Where in the RAW does it say that I can't use my Claws power from the Draconic Bloodline and my Beast Totem together with my base natural attacks? There is NO such rule for limiting a creature to 1 natural attack per limb (even if this is the unwritten rule of thumb that beastiary monsters all follow). This is a rule for Eidolons, but eidolon rules are not something tha twe either can or should apply universally.

The only thing that stops that Tengu Barb/Sorc from having 6 claw attacks is the rule that similar effects do not stack.... and if they do not stack for that tengu Barb/Sorc then they do not stack for an alchemist, regardless of his number of limbs.


Dash Lestowe wrote:

The rules as written explicitly disagree with this statement.

You can make a natural attack with every natural weapon you own in one full-attack sequence.

You cannot do that with a sword.

If you had wing wing claw claw bite tail slap, you take ALL of them.

If you had 6 swords, you have too many.

While manufactured weapons do have different rules than manufactured weapons, I don't understand the "too many" part of your statement.

A 4 armed creature (like a kasatha) could wield 4 weapons. A 2 armed creature (human) that somehow gains 2 additional arms could also wield 4 weapons.

A human alchemist with Vestigial Arms x2 could wield 4 weapons, he just can't use the vestigial limbs to add extra attacks.


For those against the Vestigial Arms/Feral Mutagen Combo:

Point where in the RAW that says the Vestigial Arms cannot add or make extra attacks.

Vestigial Arm wrote:
The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).

The RAW specifically says you can make attacks with the arm. It simply says that it doesn't "give" you any extra attacks. Nobody arguing the side of the Feral Mutagen working has stated that the Arms give you extra attacks. The RAW is cut and dry on it. In fact, The Feral Mutagen ability is what "gives" attacks.

Feral Mutagen wrote:
Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.

So let's recount, shall we?

PC has 2 Claws from Racial Trait. He takes 2 Vestigial Arm Discoveries. He later than takes the Feral Mutagen Discovery. When he imbibes a Mutagen, he gains 2 Claws and a Bite Attack.

If there is any question at all, it would be if the PC would simply gain a Bite Attack or if he would gain the Claw Attacks from the Mutagen as well, considering he already has 2 Claw Attacks.

I see no RAW saying he can't have 4 Claw Attacks, since the Vestigial Arms don't "give" these extra attacks, the Feral Mutagen does. In addition, since these both come from separate sources (natural and magical, racial and class feature, respectively), stacking the effect seems to be of little issue.


Stacking is still an issue regardless of source. In fact the section on stacking addressses different sources specifically.

My question stands.

Ignore vestigial arms for the moment.

The alchemist has 2 racial claws and then uses feral mutagen. What prevents him from gaining two claws and then having 4 claw attacks?

The only answer the rules provide is the section on stacking effects. Otherwise I am going to make a tengu sorcerer barbarian alchemist with 8 claw attacks. Because there are ni rules for natural attacks requiring some specific limb or a free limb etc. There are no limb based limits on natural attacks per RAW.

Again... if you can stack effects that grant claw attacks then you can do it regardless of your number of limbs. If you can't stack them, then you can't stack them regardless of the number of limbs. End of story. Anything else is RAI and GM fiat.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nobody arguing the side of the Feral Mutagen working has stated that the Arms give you extra attacks.

Except people with the opposing view are arguing that is exactly what you are stating.

An arm without natural weapons can't give you any attacks by itself, so the line would be meaningless. The attacks come from the weapon (natural or manufactured).

The same argument you propose would support a human alchemist with vestigial arms wielding 4 short swords because the attacks don't come from the arms, but from the swords.

In effect, your argument is that the line about not granting extra attacks is meaningless. Except it must have a meaning or it wouldn't have been included.

Without the vestigial arms, you could make attacks with a single weapon, twf with two weapons, use 2 claws, or a claw and a manufactured weapon.

With vestigial arms, you can make attacks with a single weapon (wielded in any of your arms), twf with two weapons (in any two of your arms), attack with 2 claws (attached to any two of your arms), or a claw and a manufactured weapon (claw attached to any arm, weapon wielded in any other arm).

Any more than this would increase your number of attacks, thus granting your the very definition of "extra."

I don't see a problem with you having racial claws, drinking a mutagen, and applying the claws to your vestigial arms. But then you must choose which claws you attack with, because if you attack with them all it would be extra.

Arguments that you normally attack with *all* natural attacks aren't persuasive to me since A)the limitation in Vestigial Arms would be a specific rule overriding the general natural weapon rule, just as specific rules trump general rules so many times; and B)*all* is not a number, so it doesn't prevent the addition of more attacks from being "extra." Having 3, then 5, means you gained 2 more, or extra, attacks.


Lord_Malkov" wrote:
The alchemist has 2 racial claws and then uses feral mutagen. What prevents him from gaining two claws and then having 4 claw attacks?

I mentioned this earlier, but maybe it got lost amongst the double posts (I double posted myself). There's some precedent from limiting claws to the number of corresponding hands by looking at the rules for eidolons and the rules for making claw attacks while wielding a weapon. Though I agree, it's a question that could use clarification

Samasboy1 wrote:
An arm without natural weapons can't give you any attacks by itself, so the line would be meaningless... The same argument you propose would support a human alchemist with vestigial arms wielding 4 short swords because the attacks don't come from the arms, but from the swords.

In a forum post, SKR went out of his way to clarify that the arm doesn't give you extra unarmed strikes. I know that might seem like a silly thing to clarify, but in 3.5 it was a point of major confusion. So the line could be referring to that. As far as wielding 4 weapons goes, the discovery implies that the attacks you can make with the arm come from using two-weapon fighting, which doesn't make things any clearer.

Concerning Vestigial Arm, it's almost like "give" could be interpreted in two totally different but equally valid ways. But that's impossible. :) Seriously though, I find both sides of the argument have good points, and both make valid interpretations of the rules (given their ambiguity).

To me, the situation comes down to two questions (and possible FAQ candidates):

a)Vestigial Arm states "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting)." In this case, should "give" be interpreted as "provide" or "allow"? In the former, you could use the arm to make an extra claw attack (provided through another source, such as feral mutagen). In the latter, the arm could never be used for that extra attack.

b)What happens when you gain multiple natural attacks of the same type from different sources? For instance, if a tiefling alchemist with racial claws imbibes a feral mutagen, how many claw attacks does he possess? Is he limited by his number of limbs or hands?


Samasboy1 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Nobody arguing the side of the Feral Mutagen working has stated that the Arms give you extra attacks.

Except people with the opposing view are arguing that is exactly what you are stating.

An arm without natural weapons can't give you any attacks by itself, so the line would be meaningless. The attacks come from the weapon (natural or manufactured).

The same argument you propose would support a human alchemist with vestigial arms wielding 4 short swords because the attacks don't come from the arms, but from the swords.

In effect, your argument is that the line about not granting extra attacks is meaningless. Except it must have a meaning or it wouldn't have been included.

Without the vestigial arms, you could make attacks with a single weapon, twf with two weapons, use 2 claws, or a claw and a manufactured weapon.

With vestigial arms, you can make attacks with a single weapon (wielded in any of your arms), twf with two weapons (in any two of your arms), attack with 2 claws (attached to any two of your arms), or a claw and a manufactured weapon (claw attached to any arm, weapon wielded in any other arm).

Any more than this would increase your number of attacks, thus granting your the very definition of "extra."

I don't see a problem with you having racial claws, drinking a mutagen, and applying the claws to your vestigial arms. But then you must choose which claws you attack with, because if you attack with them all it would be extra.

Arguments that you normally attack with *all* natural attacks aren't persuasive to me since A)the limitation in Vestigial Arms would be a specific rule overriding the general natural weapon rule, just as specific rules trump general rules so many times; and B)*all* is not a number, so it doesn't prevent the addition of more attacks from being "extra." Having 3, then 5, means you gained 2 more, or extra, attacks.

The RAW says the arm can still "make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine". This would include being able to make Claw attacks with them in a Full Attack Option. Again, the Vestigial Arm Discovery isn't what's giving the extra attacks, it's the Feral Mutagen discovery. The RAW is very cut and dry. Vestigial Arm Discovery says it doesn't gain attacks through that discovery. I've never said the PC in question did. The PC gains attacks through the Feral Mutagen Discovery. I'm not sure what's tripping you up about this.

Read the RAW again. The RAW says "give" Not gain, "give". There is a major difference in the meanings of those two words, and what they entail. The Arms themselves don't give extra actions or attacks, as I've have profusely stated. In fact, RAW, the Mutagen doesn't "give" extra attacks. It has the PC "gain" 2 Claw Attacks, and a Bite Attack. Not only are they ambiguous as to where these Claw Attacks can be placed, but makes no limit as to how many "Claws" the character can "gain".

At any rate...I can't make it any more clear than I currently have. As far as I'm concerned, the RAI is so twisted there is no one right interpretation, since we have SKR saying the RAW is wrong across the board, it should work like -blank-, yet the Devs still posted the RAW to begin with, and made little to no effort to errata the ability to get the "correct" intent across to the players. On top of it, the players can't even agree as to what the RAW means.

I'll save myself some energy and effort (and time) and wait for when the Officials come in. Until the Devs either weigh in and/or FAQ/Errata the thread (if they decide to), I'm done posting in here, since it's getting nowhere fast.

Please hit the FAQ button on the opening post so we can finally get this horrendous issue resolved.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

For those against the Vestigial Arms/Feral Mutagen Combo:

Point where in the RAW that says the Vestigial Arms cannot add or make extra attacks.

Vestigial Arm wrote:
The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).

The RAW specifically says you can make attacks with the arm. It simply says that it doesn't "give" you any extra attacks. Nobody arguing the side of the Feral Mutagen working has stated that the Arms give you extra attacks. The RAW is cut and dry on it. In fact, The Feral Mutagen ability is what "gives" attacks.

Feral Mutagen wrote:
Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.

So let's recount, shall we?

PC has 2 Claws from Racial Trait. He takes 2 Vestigial Arm Discoveries. He...

Show me where in RAW it says you can add the claws to your Vestigial Arm(s).

The Exchange

Samasboy1 wrote:
An arm without natural weapons can't give you any attacks by itself, so the line would be meaningless. The attacks come from the weapon (natural or manufactured).

Don't forget unarmed. There are three different type of melee attacks.

Samasboy1 wrote:
Arguments that you normally attack with *all* natural attacks aren't persuasive to me since A)the limitation in Vestigial Arms would be a specific rule overriding the general natural weapon rule, just as specific rules trump general rules so many times; and B)*all* is not a number, so it doesn't prevent the addition of more attacks from being "extra." Having 3, then 5, means you gained 2 more, or extra, attacks.

I don't know that I can get behind this idea. In the OP, you can see how after VA, the number of attacks remained unchanged. From a combat perspective, nothing was changed by VA.

Levels afterwards another effect was taken, that says you gain two claw attacks, and a bite. How is it that you are retroactively saying that VA changed the combat sequence, and now it's the source of attacks that were given by the effect you just took. Why wouldn't the source be the effect that you just took?

I don't see how this is much different than the idea of haste being cast. Haste says you gain an additional attack. Feral Mutagen says you gain three.

Do you feel that Haste, and Feral mutagen are different? (and why?)

Rhatahema wrote:
b)What happens when you gain multiple natural attacks of the same type from different sources? For instance, if a tiefling alchemist with racial claws imbibes a feral mutagen, how many claw attacks does he possess? Is he limited by his number of limbs or hands?

That one has been FAQ'd.

I would really like for those who feel that VA gives the alchemist in the OP extra attacks to offer their insight on this:

Quote:

Person, typical in every way.

Takes Feral mutagen.
They went from 1 attack at full bab to 3.

What was the source of those additional attacks?

The source of those additional attacks, is the same source of the alchemist in the OP. Vestigial Arms or not, the mutagen is the source.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
The RAW says the arm can still "make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine".

Yes, and I showed several examples of using the arms to make attacks. But you can't use the arms to make extra attacks.

I just don't buy your distinction between the arms can't "give" you attacks but allowing your to "gain" attacks. You aren't arguing a defined term, so you can't say your way is RAW.

I respect that you and Desh seem very committed to your interpretation, but an arm is not separate from a hand that in turn holds a sword. An arm is not separate from the claw on the end. If the arm can't make extra attacks, then the claw can't either.

Desh Lestowe wrote:
The source of those additional attacks, is the same source of the alchemist in the OP. Vestigial Arms or not, the mutagen is the source.

But the arm must be used to allow the claw attack.

I will try a different example. Say you are hit by a spell that rendered one arm useless. Your argument seems to say that I would still get two claw attacks, because I have a limb to put the claw onto and the claw makes the attack, not the (now useless) arm.


I doubt this will change anyone's opinion but...

I think part of the issue here is similar terms that mean different things.

Back in 3.5, things like claws, bites, slams, and tentacles were called "natural weapons." But in Pathfinder, they are called "natural attacks."

Natural Attacks

So, "natural attack" is a noun, referring to the weapon used; ie. claw, bite, slam, etc.

The term "attack" usually refers to either the standard action, or each of the multiple attacks made in a full attack.

So, "attack" is a noun, referring to the use of a weapon to harm a foe.

Vestigial Arm states it can be used to make attacks (the use of a weapon to harm a foe), but doesn't give extra attacks (use of a weapon to harm a foe).

Feral Mutagen states it gives you claw and bite natural attacks (a specific weapon).

Nothing in Feral Mutagen provides attacks (use of a weapon to harm a foe). For that we need to refer to the rules for using Natural Attacks, as well as any modifiers to those rules.

Normally, you can use all natural attacks (weapons) to attack (use a weapon to harm a foe) during a full attack. But Vestigial Arm specifies it doesn't give you extra attacks (use of a weapon to harm a foe). Natural Attack rules also specifies it uses a limb, not just part of one.

Natural Attacks)that limb; be it a claw, tentacle, or slam[/quote wrote:

So if you apply a Feral Mutagen to your Vestigial Arms, you can attack (use a weapon to harm a foe) with those natural attacks (specific weapon), but only if doing so doesn't provide extra attacks (use of a weapon to harm a foe).

So for the clawed Tiefling with Vestigial Arms and Feral Mutagen, he can't attack with both his regular claws and his Feral Mutagen-ed Vestigial Arms because doing so is extra attacks (use of a weapon to harm a foe).

The Exchange

Samasboy1 wrote:

But the arm must be used to allow the claw attack.

I will try a different example. Say you are hit by a spell that rendered one arm useless. Your argument seems to say that I would still get two claw attacks, because I have a limb to put the claw onto and the claw makes the attack, not the (now useless) arm.

I understand what you are saying. Had the discovery said this arm is unable to make attacks any attacks at all, I would agree with your example.

However the discovery says the arm can be used in the normal combat sequence. If something else grants an additional attack, the arm can be used to facilitate that normal attack sequence. It's not useless. To "pretend" it is would run counter to the text in the discovery.

The discovery says the arm (just in it of itself) does not grant extra attacks. Sean's post further illustrates this saying the number of attacks before and after are the same.

By your definition, prior to drinking the mutagen, I would have to be saying that your attacks are now more than they were before the arm, which I am not.


Quote:
However the discovery says the arm can be used in the normal combat sequence. If something else grants an additional attack, the arm can be used to facilitate that normal attack sequence. It's not useless. To "pretend" it is would run counter to the text in the discovery.

What would be your normal attack sequence with all else being equal, except you didn't have Vestigial Arms? Would you have 4 claw attacks? No.

You're trying to back into allowing 4 natural attacks with equivocation that hides the fact that one of the chair legs it stands on is invalid, by arguing that the chair can stand on 3 legs if you balance it right.

The Exchange

Yay! FAQ


Dash Lestowe wrote:
Yay! FAQ

Keep in mind its not directly (or directly enough) the 4 claws 1 bite loophole.

The Exchange

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dash Lestowe wrote:
Yay! FAQ
Keep in mind its not directly (or directly enough) the 4 claws 1 bite loophole.

and you are being rude why?

The Exchange

mplindustries wrote:

So, now we have confirmation that Race with claws + 2 Vestigial Arms + Feral Mutagen = 5 attacks.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

It's number of attacks. It's not tracking natural attacks vs. manufactured weapon attacks.

As the FAQ says: "The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons."

Nothing in that says you need to be tracking what type of weapon you're making an attack with.

So, since anyone can make unarmed strikes, and anyone can dual wield, anyone can dual wield unarmed strikes.

Therefore, a race with claws and a bite will be capable of making Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike/Claw/Claw/Bite, which is five attacks. If you get a feral mutagen and two vestigial arms, now you are allowed to make a maximum of 5 attacks, which means you can make claw x4/bite, since that's 5.

SKR specifically said you are not tracking what type of attack in any way, all you're doing is counting total number of attacks. 5 = 5, so it's legal and confirmed.

You still can't multi-weapon fight, though, because you still have to follow all the other rules, including only having a main and an off-hand, etc.

Thanks MPLIndustries for breaking it down.

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