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While I do like the idea a lot about completed seasons or stars being worth certain races, here is another one. Let races be bought with prestige. By pulling strings in the society and using your personal clout, you can speak for an outsider and get them vetted. It might only cost you 16 prestige to get your kitsune friend in, but it is going to take a lot more greasing the wheels (45 prestige) to get some goblin in the ranks.
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I think they have the right approach to Race Boons now and they should remain. Boons are a form of population control; they can manage the relative numbers by controlling how many boons they distribute. There really only SHOULD be a handful of Goblin Pathfinders. Awarding them at conventions seems like the right balance between fun and creating a living world that (sorta, kinda) reflects the racial balance of Golarion.
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My vote is to grandfather out Aasimar and Tiefling. It'd be nice to keep them in, but I believe the consensus is that in terms of power they are a clear head above all other races. I'd like to see Tengu kept in as I like that race a lot, but I can see why they would need to be grandfathered out for setting specific reasons.
I do not think new races should become opened to all players. I think they would be better suited to the PFS Lottery idea that's been mentioned over the last few months on the boards. Either that, or another incentive for new GMs for the Society.
Age: 27.
aasimaar and tiefling are customizable, but they no more powerful than a human or half elf, and dwarves have them beat, as do humans and half elves with full customizability from the ARG, which is still leaps and bounds ahead of blood of angels.
the amount of customization a race has does nothing to compete with the synergy of a given races talents, the access to an otherwise rare resource the race provides, or a series of racial support options
the only support aasimaars and tieflings have beyond the ARG, is a pair of companion pamphlets, one dedicated to each. they might look powerful on paper, but core races will always have access to support, options, and synergies the tiefling and aasimaar can never match, even with 7-11 subraces for each. the amount of subraces does nothing to keep up with all the stuff a core race will get.
in fact, the enhanced customizability is a form of limited support to two popular races that might as well be core. but then, pathfinders and adventurers are a minority anyway, so because of that, i suggest waiving the majority of the racial restrictions to allow the entirety of the advanced race guide.
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My vote is to grandfather out Aasimar and Tiefling. It'd be nice to keep them in, but I believe the consensus is that in terms of power they are a clear head above all other races.
I don't know that there is a consensus about that. They're definitely more powerful, but I think anyone who's worried about their power level is jerking their knees more than analyzing in-play data.
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I fully expect anyone who has a Tiefling/Aasimar character to vehemently explain that multiple energy resistances, stat boosts of their choice, spell-like abilities, early access to prestige classes and immunities to humanoid target spells are something that every race has in some shape and form. These people will go hoarse explaining that they are not appreciating a power advantage compared to other players. Just look at Umbriere's valiant attempt above. I have heard it plenty of times. From what I've experienced GMing and talking to players there is a clear discrepancy.
I don't think PFS has ever "analyzed in-play data" and I don't think it has the resources to do so.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The aasimar/tiefling power debate needs to end. It doesn't matter. No amount of arguing about it (on either side) is going to convince someone who stands on the other side.
If you want to state your opinion, do so and move on. If you want to offer suggestions, that is appreciated. But derailing this thread with a "who's more under/overpowered" debate will serve no purpose.
So just stop.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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I fully expect anyone who has a Tiefling/Aasimar character to vehemently explain that multiple energy resistances, stat boosts of their choice, spell-like abilities, early access to prestige classes and immunities to humanoid target spells are something that every race has in some shape and form.
I have an Aasimar character. I won't argue it can be a powerful race. I also don't think its power level is relevant to this discussion.
Still, every time I run into a Holy Blight spamming Erinyes (and there seem to be a lot of them in PFS) I have to question the benefits of being an outsider.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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aasimaars aren't overpowered at all.
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martial weapon proficiency? inferior to most weapon familiarity traits possessed by other races.
This is a common mistake I wanted to clarify. Aasimars do not get martial weapon proficiency by default. Their proficiency is defined by their class. Relevant link.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is a common mistake I wanted to clarify. Aasimars do not get martial weapon proficiency by default. Their proficiency is defined by their class. Relevant link.aasimaars aren't overpowered at all.
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martial weapon proficiency? inferior to most weapon familiarity traits possessed by other races.
A more recent answer to the frequently asked (but not frequently asked enough for a FAQ) question Here
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The aasimar/tiefling power debate needs to end. It doesn't matter.
While it can be overdone, the complaint against new species is 'We're being overrun with mutant freaks!'. If the stampede is happening because of a mechanical advantage, if the next batch doesn't have such a huge advantage it lessens the chance for a stampede.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The aasimar/tiefling power debate needs to end. It doesn't matter.While it can be overdone, the complaint against new species is 'We're being overrun with mutant freaks!'. If the stampede is happening because of a mechanical advantage, if the next batch doesn't have such a huge advantage it lessens the chance for a stampede.
I think part of the confusion is that people don't *just* play the races for a mechanical advantage.
For example, Dex I played as a tiefling just for the 'lawyer from hell' aspect. If I played a kayal, I was looking at Lore Warden/Shadowdancer for the creepy aspect of a high level shadow based character with his sister as his companion shadow.
Likewise, I had the idea of a gruff Russian/Ulfen Fanglord, since people always forget the Siberian tigers, and I had an image. I could play a barbarian and do the same thing, but the blood of the moon book got me thinking.
When someone in a more rural area (like, say West Virginia) or in a distant area (like Singapore, above) has an idea that they think would 'click' for X-race, and are told their being cheesy, or travel to a big con, or 'sucks to be you' it can be seen as hostile to that person in particular. When a request for a change is met by "We don't want more of a freak show!" by people who are already playing/have access to 'freaks' that can across as hypocritical.
Especially when the person really does want to play X-race because of Y-concept.
When someone in a more rural area (like, say West Virginia) or in a distant area (like Singapore, above) has an idea that they think would 'click' for X-race, and are told their being cheesy, or travel to a big con, or 'sucks to be you' it can be seen as hostile to that person in particular. When a request for a change is met by "We don't want more of a freak show!" by people who are already playing/have access to 'freaks' that can across as hypocritical.Especially when the person really does want to play X-race because of Y-concept.
Exactly. Fenris Ulfhamr, Missoula MT. 35 (for Jiggy)
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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And having players in rural areas is the exact reason that online play was opened. It is a two way street and people have to be willing to put in a little effort. People in rural areas who refuse to play online, and refuse to travel to a convention or refuse to GM, are probably never going to have a shot at a race boon for an exotic race.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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And having players in rural areas is the exact reason that online play was opened. It is a two way street and people have to be willing to put in a little effort. People in rural areas who refuse to play online, and refuse to travel to a convention or refuse to GM, are probably never going to have a shot at a race boon for an exotic race.
True, if you know it exists. I'll be honest, I'd never heard of an online con until recently, and I hang on these boards a lot. (like that isn't obvious).
And I am all for people GMing. maybe even in conjunction with race boons. :)
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Well, guess I should hurl in my 2 cp on this one.
I'm for the status quo on this one. The campaign staff has shown me recently that they are finding creative ways to open up new and interesting options, and I'd like to see that continue.
When it comes to races, I really don't want to see the "anything goes" mentality that LFR had make it's way in here.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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Between opening up some more story and canon compatible races and anything goes is a huge distance.
In Quadira for example, people pride themselves with a firespell they copied from djinn or efreeti over 1000 years ago and there is a lot of intermingling going on there. And that is just one part of Golarion.
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I don't like playing with a menagerie. I don't like seeing a groth of Aasimar in all the newly created characters and beeing the only human charater at the table.
I prefer exotic race ... staying exotic and rare.
So I'm clearly against opening PFS to new races, freely.
Even from Europe, I go to convention (even going to GenCon) and as such I had 3 or 4 race boon I don't use and I'm happy with the choice we have.
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And having players in rural areas is the exact reason that online play was opened. It is a two way street and people have to be willing to put in a little effort. People in rural areas who refuse to play online, and refuse to travel to a convention or refuse to GM, are probably never going to have a shot at a race boon for an exotic race.
I fully support rewards for GMs and especially "rewards for Con attendance", however in my travels I have seen such a variety of distribution of these rewards that it diminishes my enthusiasm.
At Gencon, boons are given for judging and to players for every 2 events. Some cons do only 1 boon per table (highest roll). Some cons have players roll and you only get a boon on a 19 or 20; thus many tables never see any.
It's certainly envy, but some areas simply have an easier task to get the same stuff.
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Online conventions are a thing? How does that work? Just everyone jump on at once?
As for the topic at hand, I am somewhat split. While I really feel that con rewards being racial boons are a perfect means of incentive, I also see a lot of races out there now in the books. Many of them really not mechanically powerful, just interesting.
If it was based off of simply whats the least exotic, then Aasimar somewhat skew that scale as Aasimar are even less common than races such as Vanara (whole tribes of them down in the mwangi), and Ratfolk (who are neutral, and EVERYWHERE). I think trying to argue for a race based on its rarity is somewhat moot when we already have Aasimar and Tieflings.
I do feel, with the new races out that a couple more could be added to the Always Available lists. My thoughts were:
Kitsune
Ratfolk
Ifrit
Undine
Sylph
Oread
Vanara
Catfolk
I really think the best way to introduce a couple races is as Scenario or Module boons though. The boon that unlocks the Sin Magic Archtype for wizard was very well done, and made a lot of sense. When I was reading Rats of Round Mountain I really expected a Ratfolk boon. I would prefer these boons be on higher level Scenarios or Modules (probably minimum 7-11), but it would give a very interesting reward not too mention interesting background options for the character.
If not that, then Prestige Awards would be interesting. Simply pay an amount of prestige dependent on the perceived power of the race, and natural alignment. You can still only make one, but it is essentially "Purchasing" a racial boon for people who are very active in Society.
PS: A combo-boon for the Numeria Adventure Path would be awesome if it unlocked an Android race. (AKA Required all 6 boons, a 7th can be applied to a new character to unlock Android from the Inner Sea Bestiary). But that's wishful thinking ;)
Age: 25 as of next Wednesday for Jiggy ;)
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Race Boons are one of the few campaign rewards that are both cheap for Paizo to give out and meaningful to the people who get them. That's not something that is easy to come by and motivating organizers, DMs and invested players is very important to the success of the campaign. This may seem unfair to people on the fringe, and especially to those who can't put the level of investment into the game they would like, and perhaps it is unfair. But my personal experiences with other organized play campaigns tells me that the reward benefits of keeping race boons as something that is earned is more important than the possible unfairness that it may create.
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Race Boons are one of the few campaign rewards that are both cheap for Paizo to give out and meaningful to the people who get them. That's not something that is easy to come by and motivating organizers, DMs and invested players is very important to the success of the campaign.
This is a very good point on the fair/unfair spectrum. However I feel compelled to point out that race boons in and of themselves can be de-motivating for some of us.
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I've read all ~225 posts more or less thoroughly....
2 ideas struck me...
I like John's idea about get a race boon for completing a season, as these could be themed and "it just feels right"
the other idea I saw that I liked that I didn't see get much traction was the... "Buy the book get the boon" Idea... I think if someone plops down the cash for book X that is all about a certain race, then let there be a 1 time only use boon in the back to let them play that race. Sells more books, period. Heck I'd make the Boon on the inside back cover so you'd have to sharpie your player # and character name right in the book... keep folks honest and they'd never forget their source material that way *wink*. If this means that 30 people in my lodge buy a book about werefolk and want to play that, so be it.
Outside of these 2 ideas, I am not really jazz'd about more races being opened up. I see waaaaaaay to many Aasimar, and there is this one Tengu, I'm looking at you FoD, that breaks scenarios like nobodies business.
I would not be against racial reformations - Meaning you have to play X number of core races to at least level X, before you can let the planestouched genie out of the bottle.
I also would not revolt if all non-core races were taken off the table, even our precious GM boons... I could make 30+ different characters with just Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling and be very happy.
I'll turn 37 on Friday, and I've been gaming since TSR was king.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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Here is my take.
Keep in mind, I have not read the whole thread.
I think, myself, that the Race Boons needs to be kept being given as player boons instead of the DM only option. A rare treat, to be sure (Roll of 19 or 20 at Gen Con, right?) but it gives that player an incentive to play again.
Myself, I would like to see a Cat Folk boon. I always like the cat person races, made some myself call the Gatius for 3.5. It would be Puuurrrfect.
The Goblin boon (You Be Goblin!) need to stay a special occasion boon, though I still think I should have gotten one. (3-4 tier had no survivers? Really? We ran, but didn't die...)
As far as races being opened up, I think that Fetchlings can be good choice, and Kobolds makes since as we have them as allies after the pact with the Sewer Dragons.
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In addition to creating a logistical nightmare, beyond about level 4 I don't know that the bonuses of the outsider races feel very large. Resistances at low level are awesome when it comes up, but at higher level it seems to matter a lot less.
As for the +2s on most any stat you want, humans can literally put 2 +2s on any two stats you want with no -2s and no one ever does it. I am literally the only person I have ever seen sacrifice a feat for an additional +2 as a human and it was to specifically pull off a special build requirement.
Originally I made several outsiders just because I thought they were cool flavor, but lately I have been more weighing an extra feat and skills vs an extra +2 and favored class bonus. They aren't really clear winners out of the gate.
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Meh. I've always considered Aasimar and Tieflings to core races, but some of the options in Blood of Angels/Fiends are... a bit much. Honestly, even with the splatbook boosts they aren't any more powerful than a well built human. Tengu I can take or leave.
As for the "new shiny," I could live with one race becoming open for play every season. I'd even be okay with the new race replacing the old. For instance, at the start of Season 6 have a hard cutoff for creating Tengu characters and instead open up Suli-jan, or whatever. I like having the option of "exotic" races, even if I rarely play them.
I'm 28, for whatever that's worth.
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The Pathfinder setting is really most interesting and detailed in its human societies, and PFS is mostly centered around those. I think organized play is best served by having races 'always available' that primarily live in human societies (humans, halflings, tieflings, maybe half-elves) along with others who are often found among humans (aasimar, gnomes, tengu, maybe half-orcs). Boon access for the others is fine, though I could see expanding access to those a bit - maybe based on GM stars, maybe you get 1 for getting a non-boon character to 10 or 12. (I also wouldn't advocate restricting CRB options even if they do mostly live on Venus.)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Myself, I would like to see a Cat Folk boon. I always like the cat person races, made some myself call the Gatius for 3.5. It would be Puuurrrfect.
Aside,
You know you can make a good catfolk-like with the raksasha tiefling? Same stat adjustments, and swap some traits to get claws or a bite.
Just sharing that thought.
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I really think a single race unlock at various GM star levels is a good idea. It will do several things.
1. It will promote GMing.
2. It will promote REPORTING. You do not get a star unless its reported.
3. While 1 star for a GM is kinda meh. Congrats, you did 10 games. Not a huge accomplishment. 3 Stars? Thats a lot of games and support towards PFS, 5 Star? Thats a tier all its own.
GMing is really beginning to get a lot perks. While I love the ability to replay a scenario per star...there's more than 150 scenarios out there. At most you can replay 5. I already cant decide what scenario I want to play again as there are so many scenarios. I know from talking to a few folks at my shop, it really is not a huge turn on for them. Just something extra.
I think a race boon unlock at 3 stars, 4 stars, and a "Pick the Race you want from ARG" at 5 stars would be interesting. There are already a VERY small amount of 5 star GM's and getting there is a feat unto itself. I think the reward of a race you want is really not that big of a problem. You will easily keep them rare and exotic.
Again, only one character race unlock. No unlocking the race for ever and always. Just once.
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I really think a single race unlock at various GM star levels is a good idea. It will do several things.
1. It will promote GMing.
2. It will promote REPORTING. You do not get a star unless its reported.
3. While 1 star for a GM is kinda meh. Congrats, you did 10 games. Not a huge accomplishment. 3 Stars? Thats a lot of games and support towards PFS, 5 Star? Thats a tier all its own....
That's a cool idea !
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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GMing is really beginning to get a lot perks. While I love the ability to replay a scenario per star...there's more than 150 scenarios out there. At most you can replay 5. I already cant decide what scenario I want to play again as there are so many scenarios. I know from talking to a few folks at my shop, it really is not a huge turn on for them. Just something extra.
One interesting thing I have noted with organized play campaigns is that the fabulousness of the reward is not what's most important, but rather that you are getting one and that the company continues to find ways of rewarding DMs and organizers. I remember when one organized play campaign I was involved with stopped giving out rewards to DMs & organizers. The thought was not "Oh no! I won't get my reward any more," it was, "Looks like the campaign organizers don't give a crap about me anymore."
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Really what should be done is for people to scan in the bar codes of all the product they have bought and submit it to Paizo...once you reach a certain dollar amount and at set intervals above that you can get boons...
Lets face it ....buying product keeps Paizo going and this is the beast and most equitable way to reward their player base.
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1. I think adding more powerful regional traits to humans would remove some of the shuffle towards the "overpowered and overpopulated" newer races.
2. I would personally like a choose your own race boon chronicle sheet from completing the next retirement arc... let Paizo pick a dozen of their most requested con boons and add them in a list with a check one restriction, then bring a copy of that sheet with you with your new character.
3. Furries creep me out, the less kitsune and catfolk the better :P
Approaching the hill.
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I've got a weird proposal. Its what I force myself to do (I have 2 aasimar characters and refuse to play another one).
Open up some races but restrict the number of characters of that race that a player can EVER have
I actually really like this idea. Let people play any race they want but limit the number of active characters of any race that a person can have. As is, there's no reason to make a character anything but a tiefling or aasimar from an optimization standpoint. That's frustrating, especially since catfolk - a race I'd actually love to play - isn't available.
Also, requiring people to go to conventions to get boons to play specific races is lame. Some of us work 60 hours a week and can't take time off to go to conventions.
age 33 if that matters
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Good evening Corragh!
I am right there along with you that as a working professional, I lack the time to actually attend real life conventions. Also I lack the desire to travel. However there is good news for individuals like us! Online conventions. You can attend these lovely excursions from the comfort of your own computer chair and on your own time.
If you are interested in a GM boon but don't want to travel? Try gm'ing at an online convention. If you are interested in playing at a convention but don't want to travel? Play! Play! Play via the online communities and conventions that are offered. We just had VTT game day which was awesome; and we are getting ready to have Aethercon. Stay tuned to the online pfs communities for details on getting connected with these things.
The truth is we do have available for us through the online communities the boons that are available to those who travel in person. I do hope more of the community would consider availing themselves to these opportunities. They really are fantastic!
And to reiterate the next big Online Convention a lot of are participating in is Aethercon. The main website for it is at: http://www.aethercon.com/a2/ The warhorn site for table signups are at: https://warhorn.net/events/aethercon-2013-pfs
If you are just interested in some online play and to hear of activity in the online community, check out these few of the many locations:
The Ironhelixx RPG Club - http://v1.warhorn.net/iron-helixx-pfs/
Pathfinder Society Online Collective - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/pathfinder-society-online-collectiv e
The Paizo Boards! - http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderS ociety/grandLodgeOnlinePlay
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Excuse me? Are you telling us that humans need more "powerful" stuff than they already have?1. I think adding more powerful regional traits to humans would remove some of the shuffle towards the "overpowered and overpopulated" newer races.
Yes, and you are excused. If the argument that nobody wants to play humans any more is that they are underpowered and uninteresting then you give them some other racial traits to select from that will synergize with more recent source material... pretty simple concept. Gaining appraise as a class skill via racial traits is not a reason to pick a race, gaining early entry into PrCs is.
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To be honest, I don't think that PFS needs any more races at all.
And with that said, I'd like to say that there's a big difference between "need" and "could use".
The addition of new races can breathe life into established players - after all, they'll be starting new characters at level 1. And since PFS is a campaign that will always be looking for new players, we NEED more level 1 players - without them, how will the truly new people (that have never touched the system before in their lives) be able to jump in and "see how it's done"?
Some people have cited the power creep that races might have, and others have cited that Pathfinder, and Golarion specifically, has a humanocentric point of view, and still others have simply had comments like "I want new races because I want new races". Nobody's wrong; nobody's right.
The thing is, I'd love to see some new races unlocked because I can use that to drive some new players into my games, and also into my store. I own the LGS, and being able to say to a new player "Hey, the publisher JUST released this new race last Monday and I have some seats available in Saturday's game - want in?" gives the retail arm of Paizo just a bit more clout; it puts some extra coins in my pocket, too, which means that I can continue to bribe, er, "reward" my DMs for their time in-store.
Tabletop RPGs hit a critical mass as time rolls on, and the addition of new content can help keep fresh meat filling our seats.
So we don't NEED new races, but seeing some new ones would do AWESOME things for our community.
For the record, I really support having 4- and 5-star GMs send an SASE to Paizo for a brand-new race unlock ;) (yes, I'm of the ripe old age of 35 and I know what an SASE is)
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Strange since I sent 6 new boons, including one race boon, to SmiteCon in Singapore that was held .Sep 20-22. Did they not get used?And all it cost me was my time and the price of gas to get there. Paizo's made it extremely feasible for just about anyone who's interested in attending a con to have the chance to go. So please don't say that attending a giant con isn't an option for the average gamer; you might just have to get a bit creative.Again, you are speaking from the perspective of someone living within driving distance of a major American metropolitan area. I live in Singapore so it would cost me quite a bit more than a weekend and tank of gas to go to a big con, the nearest of which for me is in Australia literally a continent away. The only way for Paizo to make it "extremely feasible" for me to go to a giant con would be to pick up the tab for my plane ticket.
There are many players living in areas even more remote from gaming and cons than me so no, it really isn't an option for me and many many other players. I would have to get creative to the tune of $3000 for just the plane tickets alone to do so. Maybe $1000 if I am lucky and I find a con in Australia.
Again I ask that people remember that PFS needs to reach out to build more far-reaching communities. Part of that is allowing people in those communities who likely cannot get hte con experience that you are lucky enough to be able to attend to also participate fully in the experiences an rewards of PFS play.
Ye brethren, but what about us few Quaker teenagers that sneak to a game once a month when our mamma's and papa's are buying wax and wicks at the candle makers and lye soap. Nay I say does't we have the same opportunities thou hast of ever frequenting a convention. Where are our boons?
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Ye brethren, but what about us few Quaker teenagers that sneak to a game once a month when our mamma's and papa's are buying wax and wicks at the candle makers and lye soap. Nay I say does't we have the same opportunities thou hast of ever frequenting a convention. Where are our boons?
I can't tell if that's a 1 or a 20 on the knowledge religion check...
I can't get to a con isn't exactly a corner case. Lots of people work weekends, don't have cars, don't have the cash, need to watch the kids etc.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ye brethren, but what about us few Quaker teenagers that sneak to a game once a month when our mamma's and papa's are buying wax and wicks at the candle makers and lye soap. Nay I say does't we have the same opportunities thou hast of ever frequenting a convention. Where are our boons?I can't tell if that's a 1 or a 20 on the knowledge religion check...
I can't get to a con isn't exactly a corner case. Lots of people work weekends, don't have cars, don't have the cash, need to watch the kids etc.
I was thinking it a 1 on a diplomacy check.
You're right though, there are lots of reasons to not be able to make a con. I surprised myself by being able to handle Origins this year, but am not sure if I can handle GenCon (being that far from home, even with Rocky) and being able to afford a hotel room (I snore, not going to inflict that on 3 other people)