Responding to this so that it's in my recent responses. I do plan on replying, but probably won't be able to to do so until tomorrow morning (at work currently and have a game tonight).
I would also add a couple of things to the list:
Don't compare builds only at level 20 unless it is specifically requested.
1) Many/most people don't seem to play to level 20 at all. Even if someone does, they are probably retiring the PC at that point. Does it really matter that the build is more powerful if it basically won't be played much at that point?
2) I have seen some builds that appear to be very powerful at level 20, but I can't see hardly any way they can survive into the high levels.
Don't compare only the strength of one build vs. the weakness of the other build. Surprise! Yes, everyone knows your barbarian can take more physical damage than my rogue.
Don't compare only combat stats unless both sides agree that is all that will be discussed. I've seen some arguments that were basically "My THW archtype can out damage your Lore Warden archtype!" Well duh. That THW archtype is specifically designed to do big damage numbers and the Lore Warden to give the fighter some more skills and non-damage options.
+1 to Xhharatherus. I'll reply later on too, now I can't. Just a bit of thought on your post: some build are "easy" to optimize, maybe some combo seem pretty obvious for one class, while for the other class it could be harder to imagine.
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I think there's a lot of smart ideas in here, but I would like to mention on thing.
Sometimes you aren't sandbagging, but people will accuse you of that anyways. This often comes from different perspectives of what the optimization is going for, or which aspects of the game are more important. This is just something to keep in mind before you starting slinging accusations of sandbagging, or if they're being flung at you.
Another thing to keep in mind, and this is really important, is the average case. When people get in build comparison pissing matches, they're often comparing the most optimal thing they can do. This really doesn't say as much as people would think. A far more important comparison to make is to the average. This is difficult, because you need a good feel of what the 'average' is. I've been blessed/cursed with being in decidedly average groups. Groups of people who get together just to have fun, not necessarily tear through encounters, studying every nook and cranny of the rules to be able to shave off one round from combat time. I'm very so much the exception in these groups, in that I know how to optimize and could do so if I wanted to. But the vast majority of players are just in it for fun. Sure, they may use a greatsword because it's freakin' dope, but they won't use Furious Focus or Gloves of Dueling if they're a fighter. They probably don't even know about it. [Case in point, in one of my groups we just hit level 11. It was at that point that the GM realized that her wife hadn't taken a single feat. We started at 1st level.]
To the average player, a sword and shield is a great idea. Bam, I can get defenses and some nice offense? Sold!
To the average player, the wizard sucks because he can't cast as many fireballs as the sorcerer can, and he has to go through all that work of preparing spells whereas the sorcerer is just set, baby.
To the average player, those d6s the rogue gets are *huge*.
So why should you do this? Because if you're arguing about the influence of rules on the Pathfinder RPG, you need to be using the same system that the average player is using. Wraithstrike once said "I respect [REDACTED] greatly, but they don't play Pathfinder. Whatever they do play, I wouldn't mind giving it a shot." And that's the essence of this idea. Compare to Pathfinder as it is seen by most.
And one other thing to keep in mind...the performance of a lower level of optimization is not a subset of the performance of a higher level of optimization. I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone, but basically, you won't see the same relative results for comparing two build depending on what level of optimization they have. For example, a rogue is usually pretty poor in terms of damage per round. But you get the right abilities and equipment to make sneak attack a breeze to pull off? You're going to be in damage heaven.
Same problem with the Summoner, really. They're really easy for an average player to make super strong. It's not hard at all, so there's a low skill cap.
And this is why keeping the average in mind with your comparisons is so important. You're showing what the average player is seeing. You're showing what most people are seeing.
Anyways, got a meeting to go to, but here's another post of mine on much the same topic. I found it interesting enough!
Just a note: I knew of Gloves of Dueling but I did not realize the added a bonus to Weapon Training, and so did not include them. I may go back and include them on the Fighter builds I had, as the bonus might have turned a hit into a miss in a few places.
So in reading things over, I don't know that I actually have much on which to respond. The thread was sort of started due to an off-topic statement I made on another thread in the Rules forums, regarding Gunslinger damage at higher levels.
That said, I agree with everything stated here. If\when I post up the comparisons I'm doing currently (I need to go back and throw Gloves of Dueling onto my fighters and re-run my numbers, and finish up number-crunching on the archer fighter), I will make explicit the goals and parameters of the comparison.
Oooh. I'd like to see a comparison between an archer fighter and a gunslinger with a similar level of effort for both. With the archer setting that level of effort, since it's dead easy and entirely in the CRB.
Actually, I already know the outcome of that, so maybe not.
Am I detecting a hint of sarcasm? ;P
Drippingly so.
Come to think of it, you'll also need to state starting range, the number of rounds spent, and also factor into the comparison the 'opportunity cost' of being much closer to guys who want to hurt you as teh gunslinger.
I don't think I've seen any comparisons take that into consideration. Always seems to be in the gunslinger's best case.
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Dotting. This might get interesting, if only to evaluate the effectiveness of my own builds. I'm a light optimizer, though I tend to go for things that arent optimal (PrCs for example). I'm hoping a few more ideas might pop up to help my own analysis.
It can be hard to evaluate the effectiveness of a build in theory, especially over the long term. Seeing as I only have one game at the moment, and am unlikely to be able to test other builds, I'm stuck with the theoretical stuff.
No interest in the pissing contests though. I try to avoid those threads like the plague.
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Don't compare only the strength of one build vs. the weakness of the other build. Surprise! Yes, everyone knows your barbarian can take more physical damage than my rogue.
This sort of thing is probably the most common mistake made in these arguments and is the biggest reason why I tend to ignore such comparison threads.
What I don't quite understand is why so many people then play into the poster's game and indulge them by trying to deconstruct the argument or come up with ways by which the rogue can achieve greater soak than the barbarian.
To me, that's a huge waste of time, given the silliness and obviousness of the argument in the first place, yet getting caught up in the heat of the moment and arguing on such ignorant terms ends up bogging down a great number of threads.
Drippingly so.
Come to think of it, you'll also need to state starting range, the number of rounds spent, and also factor into the comparison the 'opportunity cost' of being much closer to guys who want to hurt you as teh gunslinger.
I don't think I've seen any comparisons take that into consideration. Always seems to be in the gunslinger's best case.
Just to throw out my numbers:
My test would assume that all classes are within their first range increment. The test is meant to assume damage output under the best possible conditions, not taking into factor "opportunity cost"*. However, the test also assumed that the fighters were always in an optimal position - i.e., able to take their full attack actions every round. The only factor I could not include was the cleave chain, simply because I had no way to determine how often it would come into play.
That said, across 100 rolls the Gunslinger (again, under best possible conditions - within 30 feat and always able to take a full attack action - he dealt 12,269 damage. The 2H Fighter dealt 7,098. The TWF Fighter dealt 6,233. Hit percentages respectively were 92%, 39%, and 28%. This is versus the average AC for a creature of equivalent level (I calculated using the stats from the PFSRD's Monster by CR entries) which calculated out to 33 AC or 12 Touch.
I am interested in seeing what the archer deals. I expect that it'll deal more than the melee fighters and less than the gunslinger - but that in a real-game situation the numbers would roughly even out since the gunslinger would frequently be forced outside of his optimal firing range.
*
First, I didn't include "opportunity cost" because I don't see a way to model it realistically. The assumption in any given combat is that the player is going to maneuver his offensive character into a position to deal the maximum damage possible, while attempting to offset as best he can incoming damage. Because of that, I think any attempt to include "opportunity cost" - short of perhaps using a sophisticated computer simulation to crunch all the variables; I'm using Excel, so I'll take what I can get - is going to give an unrealistic result.
Second, I don't know that the factor of range is going to make a huge difference in the comparison. For every time that the gunslinger has to be beyond 40 feet from his target (that's assuming you aren't using an advanced firearm, which removes that hindrance entirely), I would guess that the melee fighter will face a foe who regularly moves so that the fighter can't get a full attack action, and so it would balance out. And since in the numbers I ran the fighter was dealing between 6,000 and 7,00 damage (TWF versus 2H), the gunslinger could be forced out of optimal position 50% of the time and still be dealing damage equivalent to the fighter 100% in his optimal position.
Third, as to the foe wanting to harm the gunslinger, the fact is the same is true of the archer. The archer has a benefit of much greater range, but in both circumstances they rely to a lesser or greater extent on a melee combatant to keep the enemy's attention so that they don't have to worry about being in melee. And at least in the gunslinger's case I know that I can easily get him to ~40 AC at 17th level - versus the average hit of +27\+20 for a creature of equivalent CR, which isn't great but still leaves the monster missing 50% of the time.
Alright, so I kitted out all of my characters with proper equipment and re-ran my numbers. First, I'll start with the parameters:
-Character builds did not drop any stats below an 8 (I generally don't allow 'dump' stats below that point, and so didn't use them)
-Humans only
-All characters are 17th level with estimated WBL (410k gold)
-No archetypes were used
-Characters are equipped with gear primarily that optimizes their combat effectiveness
-Each build had 100 random numbers (1-20) generated for each attack in their full-attack action (except the Gunslinger; see below); in the case of criticals, dice were rolled to confirm and appropriate bonuses were added in, then damage was increased appropriately
-The gunslinger numbers are used twice - once for a character using a single-shot-per-attack pepperbox pistol and another using a double-barreled pistol (firing both shots each attack, and assuming that enough free actions are allowed for reloading) with the penalty to-hit included
-Two-weapon rend for the TWF was roughly estimated to affect 80% of his rounds. I just could not find a way to get perfectly accurate numbers for it without going line by line, and I'm not that crazy (I don't think)
-All characters have the benefit of haste, either from items or assumed from an external caster
Next, here are all of the builds. If there's room for improvement, please let me know; I based most of the fighter builds off of Rogue Eidolon's guide.
Human Fighter 17
Large Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 32, touch 21, flat-footed 25 (+9 armor, +1 shield, +5 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural, +5 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 223 (17d10+85)
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +5 (+4 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +4
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee +5 Impact Longsword +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 (3d6+34/17-20/x2) and
+5 Keen Kukri +30/+30/+25/+20 (1d6+28/15-20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (axes +4, heavy blades +6, light blades +5, hammers +3)
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Statistics
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Str 28, Dex 21, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +17; CMB +23 (+28 Bull Rushing); CMD 49 (53 vs. Disarm, 53 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Critical Focus, Dodge, Double Slice, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Specialization (Kukri), Greater Weapon Specialization (Longsword), Improved Critical (Longsword), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Mobility, Power Attack -5/+10, Spring Attack, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend, Weapon Focus (Kukri), Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Kukri), Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Traits Anatomist, Swordlord's Page (Brevoy)
Other Gear Celestial armor, +5 Impact Longsword, +5 Keen Kukri, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical perfection +6, Gloves of dueling, Ring of protection +5
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Special Abilities
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Anatomist +1 to confirm critical hits.
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Swordlord's Page (Brevoy) You have trained under the Aldori swordlords, and though not yet a swordlord yourself, you have learned how to strike hard with your weapon. You gain a +1 attack bonus to confirm critical hits when using an edged weapon you are proficient with.
Two-weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Two-weapon Rend Deal extra 1d10+13 if you hit a foe with both main and off hand weapons.
Weapon Training (Axes) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Axes
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training (Hammers) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Hammers
Human Fighter 17
Large Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 36, touch 21, flat-footed 30 (+10 armor, +4 Dex, -1 size, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +2 dodge)
hp 240 (17d10+102)
Fort +14, Ref +12, Will +7 (+4 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +4
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee +5 Impact Falchion +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 (3d6+45/15-20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (axes +6, heavy blades +5, flails +3, hammers +4)
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Statistics
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Str 32, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +17; CMB +25 (+30 Bull Rushing); CMD 51 (55 vs. Disarm, 55 vs. Sunder)
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Critical Focus, Dodge, Furious Focus, Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion), Greater Weapon Specialization (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack -5/+10, Quick Draw, Shield of Swings, Spring Attack, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
Traits Anatomist, Swordlord's Page (Brevoy)
Other Gear Mithral full plate of speed (10 rounds/day), +5 Impact Falchion, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Gloves of dueling, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ring of protection +5
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Special Abilities
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Anatomist +1 to confirm critical hits.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 to Will save vs. Fear
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Mobility +4 to AC vs. AoO provoked by moving out of or through a threatened area.
Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Shield of Swings During a full-round attack with a 2-handed weapon, you may halve your damage to gain +4 AC and CMD until the beginning of your next turn.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Swordlord's Page (Brevoy) You have trained under the Aldori swordlords, and though not yet a swordlord yourself, you have learned how to strike hard with your weapon. You gain a +1 attack bonus to confirm critical hits when using an edged weapon you are proficient with.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Training (Axes) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Axes
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Flails) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Flails
Weapon Training (Hammers) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Hammers
Human Fighter 17
Large Humanoid (human)
Hero Points 1
Init +8; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
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AC 41, touch 23, flat-footed 33 (+9 armor, +4 shield, +7 Dex, -1 size, +5 natural, +5 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 206 (17d10+68)
Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +6 (+4 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +4
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Ranged +5 Adaptive, Endless Ammunition Composite longbow (Str +4) +33/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+33/19-20/x3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (light blades +4, bows +6, crossbows +5, thrown +3)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 25, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 9
Base Atk +17; CMB +25; CMD 48 (52 vs. Disarm, 52 vs. Sunder)
Feats Clustered Shots, Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), Critical Focus, Deadly Aim -5/+10, Greater Snap Shot, Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow), Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Improved Critical (Longbow), Improved Precise Shot, Improved Snap Shot, Manyshot, Pin Down, Point Blank Master (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Traits Anatomist, Harrow Born (Varisian)
SQ arrow deflection, endless ammunition
Other Gear Celestial armor, Quick block buckler, +5 Adaptive, Endless Ammunition Composite longbow , Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical perfection +6, Bracers of archery, greater, Gloves of dueling, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (silver spindle) (Gravity Bow) (3/day), Ioun stone (silver spindle) (Gravity Bow) (3/day), Pathfinder greatcoat, Ring of protection +5
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Special Abilities
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Anatomist +1 to confirm critical hits.
Arrow deflection DC 20 Reflex save to deflect ranged weapon.
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 to Will save vs. Fear
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Deadly Aim -5/+10 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Endless Ammunition Weapon creates own non-magic ammo.
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Greater Snap Shot Gain bonus on damage and critical confirmation when using ranged weapons
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Improved Snap Shot You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Pin Down Opponents that take 5-foot step or withdraw provoke attack of opportunity from you
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Quick block buckler Can boost enhancement bonus vs a melee attack by +2, but lose arrow deflection for 1 rd.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Weapon Training (Blades, Light) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +6 (Ex) +6 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Crossbows) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Crossbows
Weapon Training (Thrown) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Thrown weapons
Human Gunslinger 17
Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +13; Senses Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 36, touch 29, flat-footed 22 (+4 armor, +9 Dex, +5 natural, +3 deflection, +5 dodge)
hp 206 (17d10+68)
Fort +14, Ref +20, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=21)
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Ranged +5 Distance, Reliable, greater Pepperbox pistol +26/+26/+26/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+24/19-20/x4)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 28, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +17; CMB +18; CMD 44
Feats Clustered Shots, Critical Focus, Deadly Aim -5/+10, Extra Grit, Far Shot, Gunsmithing, Improved Critical (Pepperbox pistol), Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Pepperbox pistol), Rapid Shot, Signature Deed (Deed: Dead Shot [Signature Deed]), Snap Shot, Weapon Focus (Pepperbox pistol)
Traits Alkenstar Defender (Mana Wastes), Reactionary
SQ deed: bleeding wound, deed: dead shot (signature deed), deed: deadeye, deed: evasive, deed: expert loading, deed: gunslinger initiative, deed: gunslinger's dodge (+3 ac), deed: lightning reload, deed: menacing shot (dc 20), deed: pistol-whip, deed: quick clear, deed: slinger's luck, deed: startling shot, deed: targeting, deed: utility shot, grit, gun training +9 (double-barreled musket), gun training +9 (double-barreled pistol), gun training +9 (pepperbox), gun training +9 (pistol)
Combat Gear Gunfighter's poncho (1/day); Other Gear +5 Distance, Reliable, greater Pepperbox pistol, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +6), BeneBando, Endless bandolier (empty), Gunman's duster, Ring of protection +3
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Special Abilities
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Alkenstar Defender (Mana Wastes) +1 trait bonus on all rolls to confirm critical hits with ranged weapons.
Beneficial Bandolier, Slung (empty) Teleport bullet/powder into gun as swift action.
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Deadly Aim -5/+10 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deed: Bleeding Wound (Ex) Use 1 grit to deal Dex bleed dam, or use 2 grit to deal 1 Str/Dex/Con bleed.
Deed: Dead Shot (Signature Deed) (Ex) Use 1 grit, all att rolls vs 1 foe, hit if any of them do, higher dam with more hits.
Deed: Deadeye (Ex) Use 1 grit per extra range increment to make a touch attack beyond the first.
Deed: Evasive (Ex) While have grit, gain Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Deed: Expert Loading (Ex) Use 1 grit, prevent broken gun from exploding due to misfire.
Deed: Gunslinger Initiative (Ex) While have Grit, can use a free hand to draw a non-hidden firearm as part of the initiative check.
Deed: Gunslinger's Dodge (+3 AC) (Ex) Use 1 grit, immediately move 5 ft/drop prone to gain 1x/2x bonus to AC vs ranged attack.
Deed: Lightning Reload (Ex) While have grit, reload 1 barrel as a swift action with no AoO, or free with Rapid Reload.
Deed: Menacing Shot (DC 20) (Ex) Use 1 grit, all living creatures in 30 ft affected by fear (Will partial).
Deed: Pistol-Whip (Ex) Use 1 grit, melee attack with firearm gains enh. bonus and free CMB check to knock prone.
Deed: Quick Clear (Ex) While have grit, remove the effects of a misfire. Use 1 grit to do as move action.
Deed: Slinger's Luck (Ex) Use 1 grit to reroll a skill check, or 2 to reroll a save. Must take 2nd result.
Deed: Startling Shot (Ex) While have Grit, standard action to make attack that makes flat-footed until next turn but no dam.
Deed: Targeting (Ex) Use 1 grit, full rd action to choose body part to hit for specific effects.
Deed: Utility Shot While have grit, gain a variety of useful tricks with a firearm.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Far Shot Halve the range increment penalty for extended range.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gun Training +9 (Double-barreled musket) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gun Training +9 (Pepperbox) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gun Training +9 (Double-barreled pistol) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gun Training +9 (Pistol) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gunfighter's poncho (1/day) Fall prone to negate a non-critical ranged touch attack.
Gunman's duster Begin each day with 1 more grit. +2 touch AC vs firearms.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=21) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 21+.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Pepperbox) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Signature Deed (Deed: Dead Shot [Signature Deed]) Pick a deed that you have access to and that you must spend grit to perform. You can perform this deed for 1 fewer grit point (minimum 0). If the amount of grit needed to perform the deed is reduced to 0, you can perform this deed for the normal acti
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Human Gunslinger 17
Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +13; Senses Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 36, touch 29, flat-footed 22 (+4 armor, +9 Dex, +5 natural, +3 deflection, +5 dodge)
hp 206 (17d10+68)
Fort +14, Ref +20, Will +7
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=21)
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Ranged +5 Distance, Reliable, greater Double-barreled pistol +26/+26/+26/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+24/19-20/x4)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 28, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +17; CMB +18; CMD 44
Feats Clustered Shots, Critical Focus, Deadly Aim -5/+10, Extra Grit, Far Shot, Gunsmithing, Improved Critical (Double-barreled pistol), Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Double-barreled pistol), Rapid Shot, Signature Deed (Deed: Dead Shot [Signature Deed]), Snap Shot, Weapon Focus (Double-barreled pistol)
Traits Alkenstar Defender (Mana Wastes), Reactionary
SQ deed: bleeding wound, deed: dead shot (signature deed), deed: deadeye, deed: evasive, deed: expert loading, deed: gunslinger initiative, deed: gunslinger's dodge (+3 ac), deed: lightning reload, deed: menacing shot (dc 20), deed: pistol-whip, deed: quick clear, deed: slinger's luck, deed: startling shot, deed: targeting, deed: utility shot, grit, gun training +9 (double-barreled musket), gun training +9 (double-barreled pistol), gun training +9 (pepperbox), gun training +9 (pistol)
Combat Gear Gunfighter's poncho (1/day); Other Gear +5 Distance, Reliable, greater Double-barreled pis, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +6), BeneBando, Endless bandolier (empty), Gunman's duster, Ring of protection +3
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Special Abilities
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Alkenstar Defender (Mana Wastes) +1 trait bonus on all rolls to confirm critical hits with ranged weapons.
Beneficial Bandolier, Slung (empty) Teleport bullet/powder into gun as swift action.
Clustered Shots Total damage from full-round ranged attacks before applying DR
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Deadly Aim -5/+10 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deed: Bleeding Wound (Ex) Use 1 grit to deal Dex bleed dam, or use 2 grit to deal 1 Str/Dex/Con bleed.
Deed: Dead Shot (Signature Deed) (Ex) Use 1 grit, all att rolls vs 1 foe, hit if any of them do, higher dam with more hits.
Deed: Deadeye (Ex) Use 1 grit per extra range increment to make a touch attack beyond the first.
Deed: Evasive (Ex) While have grit, gain Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Deed: Expert Loading (Ex) Use 1 grit, prevent broken gun from exploding due to misfire.
Deed: Gunslinger Initiative (Ex) While have Grit, can use a free hand to draw a non-hidden firearm as part of the initiative check.
Deed: Gunslinger's Dodge (+3 AC) (Ex) Use 1 grit, immediately move 5 ft/drop prone to gain 1x/2x bonus to AC vs ranged attack.
Deed: Lightning Reload (Ex) While have grit, reload 1 barrel as a swift action with no AoO, or free with Rapid Reload.
Deed: Menacing Shot (DC 20) (Ex) Use 1 grit, all living creatures in 30 ft affected by fear (Will partial).
Deed: Pistol-Whip (Ex) Use 1 grit, melee attack with firearm gains enh. bonus and free CMB check to knock prone.
Deed: Quick Clear (Ex) While have grit, remove the effects of a misfire. Use 1 grit to do as move action.
Deed: Slinger's Luck (Ex) Use 1 grit to reroll a skill check, or 2 to reroll a save. Must take 2nd result.
Deed: Startling Shot (Ex) While have Grit, standard action to make attack that makes flat-footed until next turn but no dam.
Deed: Targeting (Ex) Use 1 grit, full rd action to choose body part to hit for specific effects.
Deed: Utility Shot While have grit, gain a variety of useful tricks with a firearm.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Far Shot Halve the range increment penalty for extended range.
Grit (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on firearm crit/killing blow.
Gun Training +9 (Double-barreled musket) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gun Training +9 (Pepperbox) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gun Training +9 (Double-barreled pistol) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gun Training +9 (Pistol) (Ex) On a misfire with chosen firearm type, misfire value only increase by 2 (instead of 4).
Gunfighter's poncho (1/day) Fall prone to negate a non-critical ranged touch attack.
Gunman's duster Begin each day with 1 more grit. +2 touch AC vs firearms.
Gunsmithing You can use a gunsmithing kit to craft/repair firearms and ammo.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=21) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 21+.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Rapid Reload (Pepperbox) You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow or Firearm.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Signature Deed (Deed: Dead Shot [Signature Deed]) Pick a deed that you have access to and that you must spend grit to perform. You can perform this deed for 1 fewer grit point (minimum 0). If the amount of grit needed to perform the deed is reduced to 0, you can perform this deed for the normal acti
Snap Shot Threaten squares within 5 feet of you when wielding a ranged weapon
Grant total hits -- 589
Grand total crits -- 162
Grand total damage -- 31325.5
2H
Grand total hits -- 390
Grand total crits -- 132
Grand total damage -- 37851
Archer
Grand total hits -- 446
Grand total crits -- 55
Grand total damage -- 27593
Gunslinger (double-barreled pistol)
Grand total hits -- 1114
Grand total crits -- 104
Grand total damage -- 42067
Gunslinger (pepperbox pistol)
Grand total hits -- 570
Grand total crits -- 50
Grand total damage -- 21240
I feel like I missed something with the archer. I always though that it was one of the strongest damage-dealing non-magic builds, but it doesn't seem like it.
Suggestions, criticisms welcome. The whole reason I'm doing this is because I'm trying to decide if I want to do a full rewrite of the firearms rules as a house rule. As it stands, it looks like my initial numbers for the gunslinger were about right - but that the lack of gear on the fighters gave false results (many thanks ShadowcatX for the correction).
Thanks, I agree that the numbers seem more balanced.
Since Hero Lab makes it fairly easy to build these, I will probably do builds at every BAB increase to see what it looks like. I can see why the archer would be better at mid-levels - by the time the melee fighters are getting two attacks the archer is firing two arrows with his first shot and getting an extra shot from Rapid Shot...
The gunslinger really only seems OP when you factor in the cheese of double-barreled weapons and 12 reloads a round; if you take that away, he's significantly lacking in damage at higher levels, so I'm thinking that as a house rule I'd add in something with the higher tiers of gun training to try and offset that.
Anyhow, thanks again!