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If you perform trip through a spell modified by toppling spell metamagic, do you get to add a +2 to the trip roll or +4 if you have greater trip?
Your spells with the force descriptor knock the affected creatures prone.
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor. A toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
I . . . really don't think that was RAI, but, well, . . . yes? I mean, it is a trip check, and Improved Trip flat out says you get a +2 to trip checks.
Nothing in that text implies that the trip check cannot be modified by other modifiers. It simply replaces the base formula.
...you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe...
...make a trip check...
What was the ambiguity again?
Improved Trip gives a bonus to "trip checks," not CBM's for tripping, not a trip roll. It uses specific language "you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe"
Toppling spell tells you to "make a trip check."
So unless we are arguing a difference between a "trip check" and "check made to trip" then it is pretty clear that the bonus from Improved Trip works on Toppling Spells.
BTW, I am unwilling to participate in a discussion about the difference between trips checks and checks made to trip. So if thats where you guys go with this I will be bowing out.
It actually does imply that - if it didn't it would read "make a Trip attempt against the target, using your caster level in place of base attack and casting ability bonus in place of strength for the purposes of this check"
It just says "caster level plus ability bonus" without mentioning substitution.
Nothing about the wording of Toppling Spell indicates that the trip check it calls for is not a trip check.
Nothing about the wording of Improved Trip indicates that checks made to trip is somehow not meant to mean ALL checks made to trip.
Even though it seems strange to me, I would have to say yes. A trip is a trip. I say this in spite of the Black Tentacles/Spiritual weapon comparison. Toppling spell states that you make the trip attempt, whereas Black Tentacles has its own BAB, CMB, and CMD. If you are making the trip attempt, then it only makes sense to add all bonuses that you possess
...you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe......make a trip check...What was the ambiguity again?
Yeah, this. It's absolutely correct by RAW.
If you don't like it for whatever reason, houserule it.
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HERE was a previous discussion a year ago. Nothing definitive, either.
Hrmm... Would a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone slotted in a Wayfinder give you another +2? I'm thinking not, but what say you?
I don't get how this could be anymore definitive.
In other news weapon focus(short sword) gives you a +1 to attack with short swords.
I don't get how this could be anymore definitive.
In other news weapon focus(short sword) gives you a +1 to attack with short swords.
I agree. It's crystal clear that, by the rules as written, it works. Whether or not it was intended to, or whether or not a poster likes that it works isn't the issue. By RAW, it works.
If the ability specifically calls out an attack roll or a combat maneuver then I would say no. If the ability says adds to checks then I would say yes.
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If the ability specifically calls out an attack roll or a combat maneuver then I would say no. If the ability says adds to checks then I would say yes.
If you asked this in reference to the Spiritual Weapon attack, I believe everyone would say no. This trip comes from a spell and they tell you the base bonuses to use, so without saying "and add any applicable bonuses you have" one shouldn't be adding in bonuses unless you want to do the same for all other spells that have attack rolls, grapples, etc.
If the ability specifically calls out an attack roll or a combat maneuver then I would say no. If the ability says adds to checks then I would say yes.If you asked this in reference to the Spiritual Weapon attack, I believe everyone would say no. This trip comes from a spell and they tell you the base bonuses to use, so without saying "and add any applicable bonuses you have" one shouldn't be adding in bonuses unless you want to do the same for all other spells that have attack rolls, grapples, etc.
You don't have to say 'add any applicable bonuses you have', because an applicable bonus is added by definition, because it's applicable.
We are getting off topic here, so I made a new thread here.
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If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on)
Just to play devil's advocate...
The wording is very explicit in the spell description. You get to roll a d20+Caster Level+Casting Stat. This can easily be interpreted as a feature of the feat and outside the bounds of standard trip effects, much in the same way that using metamagic to modify a spell does not change the spell's effective level even though you cast it from a higher level spell slot.|
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The wording is very explicit in the spell description. You get to roll a d20+Caster Level+Casting Stat.
I subscribe to this but the OP does not, and feels that because it says "Trip" that it should add additional things associated with Trip. The only way they could have worded it to make it clear you don't get to add Improved Trip modifiers is to never use the word Trip, to spell out you roll a CMB using this info and compare it to their CMD. In short, a great deal of additional words to convey the same meaning they can use by saying Trip. It should also take into account anything the target has for defense (such as un-Trip-able.)
Oooo, I don't think that's one people were considering. Good one.By assuming it is thus a trip combat manuever, you get the good and the bad with it:
...You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you.
Except it isn't a trip combat maneuver. It's a trip check.
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Here is my view on this:
RAW:Yes
The feat doesn't say it adds a +2 on melee trip attacks or weapon trip attacks, so it would add to this. Note that a lot of things are immune to trip.
Justafiable:Yes
You could say that you are so good at tripping, when you prepare a toppling spell to attack a foe, you can swiftly determine the targets center of gravity, and you can determine the best place to hit it.
RAI:eh, I can't say either way, I didn't write the feats, so I don't know. I doubt the developers had though of this corner case, like they hadn't thought of a bunch of other corner cases. There is a reason they are corner cases.