I have 252 HD total limit, and am wondering what are the best options out there.
What relevance is Charisma? Animate dead only creates zombies and skeletons, both lose the Charisma score of the original creature.
What relevance is Charisma? Animate dead only creates zombies and skeletons, both lose the Charisma score of the original creature.
More like determines bonus HP and fortitude saves.
Well i think regardl3ss of your total controll your limited to 40 hd at lvl 20 are you not? In regards to the whole charisma thing i believe all of the skeleton and zombie templates from animate dead reset cha to 10
Yup Cha and Wis are set to 10, and con and int are erased altogether. The Str and Dex are the only abilities relevant to the undead creature.
40 HD are plenty since even the tarrasque boasts only 30. We'll have to see if any of the Kaiju in Bestiary 4 will be able to hit that limit.
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The new skeleton or zombie will have 10 Cha regardless, so the base creatures Cha won't matter at all. Likewise, it loses its Con and Int score, and its Wis changes to 10. Thus, the only base abilities that remain when creating a skeleton or zombie are Str and Dex. (Skeletons get Dex +2, Zombies get Str +2 and Dex -2.)
Also worth noting, per the description under Skeletons in the bestiary, a creature with more than 20 HD can't be turned into a Skeleton using the Animate Dead spell. And since the strength of skeletons and zombies is almost completely dependent on the amount of HD, it looks like zombie will be the way to go.
Under variants for skeletons it says that creating variant skeleton types counts as twice the number of HD when using animate dead. There is no restriction for variant zombies, although it looks as if this was an ommission of oversight. In any event, given the high number of HD available for use it shouldn't matter either way, and it will be entirely worth it to create a fast zombie, which gets all of its attacks plus an extra on a full attack, as well as losing the -2 Dex and instead getting a +2 Dex.
So we're looking for things with lots of HD (20+), high Str and Dex, colossal size, and lots of attacks. It looks as if the creatures original natural armor bonus is replaced by the new one for zombies, so a high natural armor doesn't help. Absent the base natural armor, many of these creatures are not going to have a good AC no matter what; in fact, AC will be of no protection whatsoever against melee creatures of anywhere close to the caster's CR. Its only real defense will be Hit Points and outdamaging things, and whatever other spells and armor you might be able to tack on.
So going with just PF monsters, not considering advanced creatures, and not counting unique creatures like the Tarrasque, we are looking at mostly dragons, linnorns, behemoths, and titans. (I'm not certain Titans can be created as their souls and bodies are not unique per outsider rules, but I guess that depends on GM decision.) So here would be the benefits of each:
Great Wyrm Gold Dragon fast zombie: 41 HD for BAB, saves and hitpoints, 6 natural attacks, high Str (45) but poor Dex (8), very fast fly speed (300ft, clumsy), horrible AC of 12. 20ft reach (30ft with bite)
Tor Linnorn fast zombie: 35 HD, 6 natural attacks, high Str (48) and Dex (32), decent fly speed (100ft, clumsy), bad AC of 22, 30ft reach with all attacks. Not sure if it retains the poison bite or not, if it does its pretty significant but the DC would drop due to losing Con score and having 10 Cha. Still, with 35 HD the DC would be 27 and it is a very nasty poison.
Tempest Behemoth fast zombie: 44 HD, 4 natural attacks, High Str (45) and decent dex (23), fast fly speed (200ft, clumsy), bad AC of 19, 30ft reach with all attacks.
Hekatonkheires Titan fast zombie: 35 HD, can use colossal sized weapons for multiple attacks plus fast zombie slam attack, retains proficiency with all martial weapons, amazing Str (50) and ok dex (17), No fly speed, bad AC of 16 but can wear armor (although would not be proficient with it), 30ft reach. The big thing here that would make this creature useful (and not so much for other Titans) is the Hundred Handed Whirlwind ability. Not sure if that carries over to the Zombie version or not, but if it does it would be a significant attack ability.
So thats the basics as far as I can tell. If looking for a pet then probably the dragon or linnorn is best. If looking for a melee monster than the Titan if outfitted properly might work, especially if the Hundred Hand Whirlwind ability carries over.
*Stares at thread intently, taking notes*
Yes, yes, now what about creatures a level, say, 8 character would be facing?
*Stares at thread intently, taking notes*
Yes, yes, now what about creatures a level, say, 8 character would be facing?
You will want a 21-24 HD zombies for that. I recommend a purple worm (22 HD, CR 8). If you want to challenge the party, make it into a DEEP CRIMSON worm (as purple worm, but colossal size, 26 HD, CR 9).
Bloody skeletons are where its at. Fast healing and they come back in an hour, sure they don't keep natural flight but by the timr you're crapping out 20+ hd stuff, flying other ways isn't an issue. Theres also stuff that fly magically which is retained, so ogre magi are good for that.
Of you really want to do neat stuff, juju zombies are cool too bit you need create undead.
Oh, and don't forget to desecrate ;)
TIDE: also bloody skeletons have a 14 cha
dot
I've found hydras to be quite effective in the past.
You can definitely turn outsider corpses into zombies -- the template only requires a living creature, which outsiders are, and from an in-game perspective, you don't care about the soul, you just want the meat.
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You will want a 21-24 HD zombies for that. I recommend a purple worm (22 HD, CR 8). If you want to challenge the party, make it into a DEEP CRIMSON worm (as purple worm, but colossal size, 26 HD, CR 9).*Stares at thread intently, taking notes*
Yes, yes, now what about creatures a level, say, 8 character would be facing?
My character, Araonna Chorster, has one such worm, which she uses kind of like an aircraft carrier for her undead hoard (but subterranean rather than waterborne).
(Meant to add-edit this in my above post, but got timed out.)
What about Giant Squid, Giant Lake Octopus, Kraken, or Elder Kraken?
I don't think any of those have a land speed, which the templates don't grant. Movement would be a problem.
You will want a 21-24 HD zombies for that. I recommend a purple worm (22 HD, CR 8). If you want to challenge the party, make it into a DEEP CRIMSON worm (as purple worm, but colossal size, 26 HD, CR 9).*Stares at thread intently, taking notes*
Yes, yes, now what about creatures a level, say, 8 character would be facing?
Iiiinteresting. I'll keep an eye out for one of those, but I'm not sure if one will show up. I'm playing in Way of the Wicked as a JuJu Oracle 6/Agent of the Grave 2 ATM.
So good creatures are definitely an option, as are JuJu Zombies.
In Pathfinder, do Outsiders leave behind corpses? I can't find anything that says they don't but then again I've never heard of an undead Outsider either.
If so, there's a helpful one for both of us.
Other than that, the "Biggest, baddest" thing around is likely to be a dragon of some kind, yeah. A Bloody Skeleton Great Wyrm or something might be possible (depending on your Feats and traits and so on).
Snatching a creature from tome of horrors, a fast-zombie Living Lake could be a fearsome enemy.
At 40 HD, making 15 slam attacks each round with str 47, it is bound to make an impression on it's opponents.
You will want a 21-24 HD zombies for that. I recommend a purple worm (22 HD, CR 8). If you want to challenge the party, make it into a DEEP CRIMSON worm (as purple worm, but colossal size, 26 HD, CR 9).*Stares at thread intently, taking notes*
Yes, yes, now what about creatures a level, say, 8 character would be facing?
My character, Araonna Chorster, has one such worm, which she uses kind of like an aircraft carrier for her undead hoard (but subterranean rather than waterborne).
(Meant to add-edit this in my above post, but got timed out.)
Clever Girl...
Fabricate plus Craft: Sculpture. Make a statue of whatever you want, however big you want. Cast Stone to Flesh.
Animate it your never-living corpse. Ask your GM to help you come up with stats.
My personal favorite is a Kaiju-sized Bloody Skeleton Four-Armed Gargoyle.
I have 252 HD total limit, and am wondering what are the best options out there.
i... what? how?
I'm not certain that zombie oozes are a legal option, HaraldKlak.
EDIT: Also, I'm not too keen on third party products.
I have 252 HD total limit, and am wondering what are the best options out there.i... what? how?
By being mythic of course.
Though I have a non-mythic version of Araonna, which has a mere 180 HD of control (not counting Command Undead).
wow.
Sea serpent is one of the better ones I've seen so far, since the rules specifically say they can be colossal sized with 25 HD.
That means...
.
.
N Colossal Undead
Init +3; Senses darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision, Perception +0
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DEFENSE
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AC 16, touch 5, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +11 natural, –8 size)
hp 385 (35 HD)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +19
Immune cold, undead traits; Resist fire 30
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OFFENSE
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Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +35 (6d8+17 plus disease and grab) and
slam +35 (3d8+17 plus disease) and
tail slap +30 (4d6+8 plus disease and grab) or
2 slams +27 (3d8+17 plus disease)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks death burst, disease (DC 27), quick strikes
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STATISTICS
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Abilities Str 44 (+17), Dex 16 (+3), Con –, Int –, Wis 10 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
Base Atk +26; CMB +51 (+55 grapple); CMD 54 (can’t be tripped)
Feats Toughness (B)
Skills Perception +0, Stealth –13, Swim +25
Encumbrance light 89,472 lb., medium 178,944 lb., heavy 268,800 lb.; Weight Carried 0 lb.
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Death Burst (Ex) When a plague zombie dies, it explodes in a burst of decay. All creatures adjacent to the plague zombie are exposed to its plague as if struck by a slam attack and must make a Fortitude save or contract zombie rot.
Disease (Su) The slam attack—as well as any other natural attacks—of a plague zombie carries the zombie rot disease. Zombie rot: slam; save Fort DC = 10 + ½ the zombie’s Hit Dice + the zombie’s Cha modifier; onset 1d4 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d2 Con, this damage cannot be healed while the creature is infected; cure 2 consecutive saves. Anyone who dies while infected rises as a plague zombie in 2d6 hours.
Quick Strikes (Ex) Whenever a fast zombie takes a full-attack action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus (included above).
...is possible when created bya juju oracle in a desecrated area with an alter.
AC 16, touch 5, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +11 natural, –8 size)
hp 385 (35 HD)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +19
Immune cold, undead traits; Resist fire 30
How do you get 385 hp from 35 hit dice that max at 9 hp each with toughness already factored in?
How do you get 385 hp from 35 hit dice that max at 9 hp each with toughness already factored in?
AC 16, touch 5, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +11 natural, –8 size)
hp 385 (35 HD)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +19
Immune cold, undead traits; Resist fire 30
In addition to the bonus from Toughness, you get +2 bonus hp per hit dice when created in a desecrated area with an alter. Juju oracle class abilities max out the hit points.
So...
8 hp x 35 HD = 280 hp, 280 hp + ( 3 hp x 35 HD ) = 385 hp
If you are going through all the trouble to track, find, and kill the mother of sea serpents, then it stands to reason you didn't waste all that effort by not also building an evil alter before casting.
Fabricate plus Craft: Sculpture. Make a statue of whatever you want, however big you want. Cast Stone to Flesh.
Animate it your never-living corpse. Ask your GM to help you come up with stats.
..
Not legal by RAW. You dont have a corpse. You have a humanoid shaped pile of meat. Something that never lived is not dead so you can not animate the dead ..
With animate object you can create a 'meatball of death' and with craft golem you can create a flesh golem.
I find it funny how you would allow a flesh golem, which requires the casting of animate dead to animate it, but won't allow a person to cast animate dead on said "meatball" to make an undead monster.
Me thinks that you would get both or neither using your logic.
I think the Fast Plague Zombie Taiga Linnorm is slightly badder than the sea serpent:
FAST PLAGUE ZOMBIE TAIGA LINNORM CR 10
NE Colossal Undead
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, true seeing; Perception +0
DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 13 (+8 Dex, +11 natural, -8 size)
hp 341 (31d8+93); regeneration 15 (cold iron)
Fort +10, Ref +18, Will +17
DR 15/cold iron; Immune Undead traits, curse effects, electricity, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep; SR 30
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft., fly 100 ft. (clumsy), swim 60 ft.
Melee
bite +34 (3d8+17 plus poison and disease),
2 claws +34 (2d6+17 plus disease),
tail +29 (3d6+8 plus grab and disease),
slam +34 (4d6+17 plus disease
Space 30 ft.; Reach 30 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (tail, 3d6+24),
STATISTICS
Str 45, Dex 27, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +23; CMB +48 (+52 grapple); CMD 66 (can't be tripped)
Feats Toughness
Skills Swim +8; Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth in forests
Languages Aklo, Draconic, Sylvan
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 25; frequency 1/round for 10 rounds; effect 4d6 electricity damage and 1d8 Dex drain; cure 3 consecutive saves.
Death Burst (Ex) When a plague zombie dies, it explodes in a burst of decay. All creatures adjacent to the plague zombie are exposed to its plague as if struck by a slam attack and must make a Fortitude save or contract zombie rot.
Disease (Su) The slam attack—as well as any other natural attacks—of a plague zombie carries the zombie rot disease. Zombie rot: slam; save Fort DC = 10 + ½ the zombie’s Hit Dice + the zombie’s Cha modifier; onset 1d4 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d2 Con, this damage cannot be healed while the creature is infected; cure 2 consecutive saves. Anyone who dies while infected rises as a plague zombie in 2d6 hours.
Quick Strikes (Ex) Whenever a fast zombie takes a full-attack action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus (included above).
EDIT: Added the regeneration, which I am unsure whether is removed or not.
Fabricate plus Craft: Sculpture. Make a statue of whatever you want, however big you want. Cast Stone to Flesh.
Animate it your never-living corpse. Ask your GM to help you come up with stats.
..
Not legal by RAW. You dont have a corpse. You have a humanoid shaped pile of meat. Something that never lived is not dead so you can not animate the dead ..
With animate object you can create a 'meatball of death' and with craft golem you can create a flesh golem.
Man, whatchu got against Meatwad?
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Fabricate plus Craft: Sculpture. Make a statue of whatever you want, however big you want. Cast Stone to Flesh.Not legal by RAW. You dont have a corpse. You have a humanoid shaped pile of meat.
So instead: whip out your wand of Sculpt Corpse, and after a few castings a dead mouse has become a dead hydra.
anyone know how many creatures qualify for having magical flight when making a skeleton ?
So instead: whip out your wand of Sculpt Corpse, and after a few castings a dead mouse has become a dead hydra.Fabricate plus Craft: Sculpture. Make a statue of whatever you want, however big you want. Cast Stone to Flesh.Not legal by RAW. You dont have a corpse. You have a humanoid shaped pile of meat.
A nice idea, but wouldn't it still be counted as a dead mouse for the purposes of interaction with other spells (such as Animate Dead?)
EDIT: Added the regeneration, which I am unsure whether is removed or not.
Regeneration does not function on creatures without a constitution score, as per bestiary page 303.
Sculpt Corpse
A nice idea, but wouldn't it still be counted as a dead mouse for the purposes of interaction with other spells (such as Animate Dead?)
No, why would it? It's just an object, that used to be another object. A tree trunk is no longer a tree trunk after you made it into a kitchen table either.
Sculpt CorpseA nice idea, but wouldn't it still be counted as a dead mouse for the purposes of interaction with other spells (such as Animate Dead?)No, why would it? It's just an object, that used to be another object. A tree trunk is no longer a tree trunk after you made it into a kitchen table either.
That's not how this works.
Regardless of what the mouse is shaped like, it's still a 1 HD mouse, not a however many HD Hydra.
Sculpt Corpse is not a Polymorph spell. It changes the SHAPE of the corpse, but not the actual creature and its abilities.
These lines from the spell back me up, especially the last sentence.
"This spell merely changes the appearance of the corpse. Any spell or effect that targets the corpse (such as speak with dead or raise dead) treats it as if it still had its original appearance."
Fabricate plus Craft: Sculpture. Make a statue of whatever you want, however big you want. Cast Stone to Flesh.
Animate it your never-living corpse. Ask your GM to help you come up with stats.
..
Not legal by RAW. You dont have a corpse. You have a humanoid shaped pile of meat. Something that never lived is not dead so you can not animate the dead ..
With animate object you can create a 'meatball of death' and with craft golem you can create a flesh golem.
I don't know.
Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available
Animate Dead is certainly a magical energy.
I can't seem to get it to add up either. It may be that she had the Ability Focus (channel energy) feat and that the DC never got updated when the feat was switched out. I don't rightly remember. I will think on it a while more, and if I can't figure it out, I will adjust it.
I also noticed that mythic Araonna's ability scores should be higher.
EDIT: Fixed mythic Araonna.
Interesting,
I do recall that back in the day, (3.0-3.5) it was an accepted tactic to carry a skeleton of a dead mouse in your pouch, toss on the ground when faced with bad guys, cast Polymorph Object to turn it into the skeleton of the highest HD thing you could animate at your current level (I heard Wyverns were fun) and then cast Animate Dead on it.
I confess not having taken the time to review the possibilities in PF.
(Not that I've had a lot of time recently,...) ;P
Is this scenario still doable with the current PF rules set? (just talking in general, not house ruled or PFS legal)
Polymorph Any Object, as written in Pathfinder, is highly ambiguous. It basically says it "functions as X, Y, Z spells in A, B, C conditions," but then goes on to say it can transform an object (such as a mouse corpse) into a creature, with very little rules given on how exactly one might govern that effect.
I doubt casting animate dead on a corpse targeted by polymorph any object would have any effect.