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So, one of the more common contentions on the board is whether or not there are other classes that can do the rogue's job better than the rogue. This seems like something that's worth putting to the test, so let's toss up some builds for classes/characters that can replace the rogue, and compared them to proper rogue builds.
Baseline rules:
20 point builds
Standard WBL
No Rules Craziness (Like any method for getting free Wishes)
And what exactly is the rogue's roles/functions that are to be replaced?
I can just see a lot of nitpicking because the build can't do one specific rogue skill (that a given rogue build might not bother with either), or they do less damage (but have many more options than a rogue would have) and the like.
And what exactly is the rogue's roles/functions that are to be replaced?
I can just see a lot of nitpicking because the build can't do one specific rogue skill (that a given rogue build might not bother with either), or they do less damage (but have many more options than a rogue would have) and the like.
Well, the traditional rogue role is scout, trapfinder, and skill monkey. Damage dealer is also in the mix, insofar as Sneak Attack goes.
You also might want to give a specific level :P or is this just 20?
Level ten is probably a good baseline, though I'm not terribly picky as long as we get rogue and rogue-replacement builds to compare.
Level 5 Human Dawnflower Dervish Bard
HP: 5d8 +5
AC: 26 (10 +5 armor +5 dex +1 dodge)
Touch: 16; FF: 15
Saves: Fortitude +3, Reflex +10, Will +4
BAB +3; CMB +5 (+11 for weapon-based); CMD 19
Without inspire courage: Scimitar +9 (1d6 +8*, 18-20/x2)
With inspire courage: Scimitar +13 (1d6 +12*, 18-20/x2)
*Includes Arcane Strike
Feats: Dervish Dance, Dodge, Arcane Strike, Imp. Unarmed Strike, Crane Style
Traits: Savant (+2 perform Comedy), trait for Disable Device as a class skill (I'm not searching for the name)
Skills (40 points):
Acrobatics +13 (5 ranks)
Appraise +5 (1 rank)
Disable Device +13 (5 ranks)
Know Arcana +5 (1 rank)
Linguistics +5 (1 rank)
Perception +7 (5 ranks)
Perform Comedy +12 (5 ranks) [Works as Bluff and Intimidate]
Perform Oratory +10 (5 ranks) [mostly just in prep for level 6]
Sleight of Hand +9 (1 rank)
Spellcraft +5 (1 rank)
Stealth +13 (5 ranks)
Use Magic Device +10 (5 ranks)
Spells known:
0: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Sift (9+3 known)
1: Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Ear-Piercing Scream, Grease, Hideous Laughter, Saving Finale, Silent Image, Summon Monster I (6+2 known)
2: Blistering Invective, Invisibility, Suggestion (3 known)
Equipment: +1 Scimitar, Belt of +2 Dex, +1 Mithral Chain shirt, cloak of resistance +1
At level 5, still hurting on BAB and don't even have the crown jewel of Crane Wing yet. But, AC is high and can go +4 higher by fighting defensively. DPR with inspire is respectable to good. With versatile performance, the bard is about ready to overtake rogue for sheer amount of skills next level (with Oratory).
He can't disarm magical traps until dispel magic, but he can detect them decently between perception and detect magic. Open/Close and Sift let him check things out from a safe distance all day long, and summons can be used on occasion, too. Lots of useful utility spells. Saving Finale can give him a critical save re-roll if needed.
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Really quick attempt as a baseline.
Dexterity 14
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 8
Charisma 14
1: Lingering song, Combat Reflexes
2:
3: Flag Bearer
4: Rogue Talent:Trap Spotter
5: Bodyguard
6:
7: Power Attack
8: Rogue Talent:Combat Trick: Cornugon Smash
9:Arcane Strike
10:
11: Discordant Voice
12: Advanced Rogue Talent: Improved Evasion
Favoured class= more spells
Traits: Extra performance, Adopted->Helpful
Skills:
Disable Device
Perception
Stealth
UMD
Intimidate
Diplomacy
Knowledge
Knowledge
Disables traps from level 1, magical ones from level 6, and at level 4 you auto perception check against them, no need to slow down the game by checking constantly. At level 10 his perception is +19 and Disable Device +22 before masterwork tools/ items and he takes 10 on disabling traps, taking the risk out of it.
Offensively he is a two hander (Longspear) with power attack, arcane strike, archaeologists luck, flag bearer and bard buffs.
He is a team player aiding team defensively with bodyguard and Cornugon Smash and offensively with bard spells, flagbearer and Discordant Voice.
The only item you really want on the shopping list is Banner of Ancient Kings.
Lots of skill ranks to play with and can face really effectively. Just a better rogue in my opinion.
Doyle Roguey Druid. (roughly based on a PFS character about to retire, which was based on one of these convos)
Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 int 14 wis 19 Cha 7
Traits: Vagabond child (disable device)Highlander (stealth)
Human- Focused Study: Skill focus perception At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait.
1st- Skill focus disable device
3rd- Toughness
5th- Natural spell
7th- Hellcat stealth
8th: Skill Focus: Survival
9th- Wild speech.
Now why can I blow feats jacking up his skills? Because druids come with spells and an animal critter. The critter is largely independent of your build and the spells work off of wisdom... and so does his perception.
Key buys:
-Eyes of the eagle
-Druids vestments
-Belt of Dwarven Kind (gives darksite for seeing in the dark and stonecunning, which is almost as good as trap sense.)
To toss out my first (distinctly uninspired) effort:
Level 10 Dwarven Witch-Hunter Inquisitor of Gorum:
Str: 18 (20)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16 (18)
Cha: 6
Feats:
1: Steel Soul
3: Power Attack
5: Intimidating Prowess
7: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
9: Cornugon Smash
T3: Precise Strike
T6: Outflank
T9: Paired Opportunists
Traits
Glory of Old
Wisdom in the Flesh (Disable Device)
Skills:
Disable Device: 19 (10 ranks)
Intimidate: 21 (10 ranks)
Perception: 22 (10 ranks)
Sense Motive: 22 (10 ranks)
Spellcraft: 17 (10 ranks)
Stealth: 15 (10 ranks)
Domain: Destruction (Rage)
Equipment:
+2 Cruel Greatsword
+2 Breastplate
Bane Baldric
+2 Ring of Protection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+2 Wisdom Headband
+2 Strength Belt
+2 Cloak of Resistance
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Masterwork Thieves' Tools
Eyes of the Eagle
BAB: +7/+2
AC: 24 (+3 vs. spells)
Touch: 15 (+3 vs spells)
HP: 78.5
Initiative: +5
Fort Save: +11 (+19 vs Magic)
Refl Save: +7 (+15 vs. Magic)
Will Save: 13 (+21 vs Magic)
Unbuffed
Attack: +15/+10 (+14/+9 w/Power Attack)
Damage: 2d6 + 9 (2d6+15 w/Power Attack)
W/Justice and Destruction Judgments, and Bane
Attack: +20/+15 (+18/+13 w/Power Attack)
Damage: 6d6 + 13 (6d6 + 19 w/Power Attack)
W/Justice and Destruction Judgments, Bane, Divine Power, and Rage
Attack: +25/+25/+20 (+23/+23/18)
Damage: 6d6 + 19 (6d6 + 25)
Spells
Orisions: Create Water, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Guidance, Read Magic, Stabilize
1st Level (6/day): Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Litany of Sloth, Protection from Evil, Shield of Faith
2nd Level (5/day): Blistering Invective, Brow Gasher, Litany of Defense, Perceive Cues, See Invisible
3rd Level (4/day): Burst of Speed, Coordinated Effort, Dispel Magic, Terrible Remorse
4th Level (2/day): Divine Power, Freedom of Movement
Evalutation:
He's probably not the best rogue replacement i've ever seen; I suspect the build is actually pretty lackluster. However, a disable device of 19 is enough to deal with the likes of most CR-appropriate mechanical traps, going off the examples in the CRB (He beats the CR 12 Poisoned Pit Trap on a roll of 1). He has Dispel Magic to deal with any magical traps he comes across: It's a limited number of castings, but it's rare to see that many magical traps in a day outside of homebrew. In the worst case, his saves vs. magic are high enough to let him tank many traps that target fortitude or will saves, and the AC bonus vs. magic can also help. More importantly, he got all this anti-trap utility at the cost of a single trait and a skill point investment.
Outside of traps, I'm pretty happy with how he turned out. He has a solid selection of face skills, and he makes a debuffer thanks to being able to inflict shaken, then use his cruel weapon to stack sickened on top of that. Knocking his opponent's hit and damage down by four points will give him a lot of melee longevity. I could've stretched my WBL a bit further by taking a crafting feat, or using Magic Vestment or Greater Magic Weapon to buff out my enhancement bonuses. I think he's fine as he is, though.
Big Norse Wolf: Replace Vagabond Child with Wisdom in the Flesh trait. It will also give you disable device as a class skill, but instead of a +1 bonus, it will also make it work off of wisdom instead of dexterity.
If you can spare a feat for Boon Companion, you might also want to go with the Feather (Animal) domain for +1/2 level to Perception and some useful flight spells; the feat will make you end up with a full animal companion anyway.
Big Norse Wolf: Replace Vagabond Child with Wisdom in the Flesh trait. It will also give you disable device as a class skill, but instead of a +1 bonus, it will also make it work off of wisdom instead of dexterity.
If you can spare a feat for Boon Companion, you might also want to go with the Feather (Animal) domain for +1/2 level to Perception and some useful flight spells; the feat will make you end up with a full animal companion anyway.
I was very tempted to go with Feather Domain on my inquisitor, but I couldn't find a way to fit into the current build I had. I might just make a second build that includes Feather Domain right from the start, to make sure I get it. That perception bonus is very nice, and having an animal companion to serve as a flanking buddy would do wonders for my inquisitor who has two teamwork feats that bump up his hit/damage when he flanks.
Anyone going to give a rogue build?
Anyone going to give a rogue build?
Maybe they were replaced with inquisitors and rangers and druids?(oh my?)
A modified version of my current character (whose game uses 25 point buy and some houserules), a Goblin Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist at 10th level:
Str 6, Dex 22 (26), Con 14, Int 16 (18), Wis 10, Cha 5
HP: 10d8 +20
AC: 29 (10 +1 size +4 mage armor +4 shield +8 dex +1 deflect +1 insight)
Touch: 21; FF: 21
Saves: Fortitude +12, Reflex +18, Will +6
BAB +7; CMB +4 (+19 for weapon-based); CMD 19
2 Claws +19 (1d4 +17) and Bite +19 (1d6 +17)
Or Unarmed +19/+12 (1d2 +17)
*All attack/damage #'s include Piranha Strike, -2 to hit for +4 damage
Feats: Throw Anything, Brew Potion, Weapon Finesse, Roll With It, Piranha Strike, Extra Discovery (Tumor Familiar), Improved Familiar (Faerie Dragon)
Discoveries: Feral Mutagen, Tentacle, Wings, Extend Potion, Infusion
Traits: Bandit and Jenevive Crew (Acrobatics and Stealth as class skills & +1 bonus)
Skills (80 +10 [favored class] points):
Acrobatics +27 (10 ranks) [Used w/ Roll With It to go unscathed]
Craft Alchemy +17 (10 ranks) [+10 to create items]
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Fly +14 (1 rank)
Know Nature +17 (10 ranks) [Used for Heal checks, too]
Linguistics +5 (1 rank)
Perception +13 (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +21 (8 ranks)
Spellcraft +17 (10 ranks) [For Imp. Share Spells next level]
Stealth +30 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +10 (10 ranks)
Full attack:
Equipment (62000): Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, Belt of +4 Dex, Headband of +2 Int, +1 Haramaki, small darkwood +2 heavy shield (held by tentacle), cloak of resistance +3, Ring of Protect +1, Ring of ferocious Action, Dusty Rose Iuon Stone, Boots of Striding and Springing, Potion of Greater Magic Fang (CL 20), Elixer of Tumbling, Elixer of Vision, Elixer of Shadewalking (party split costs on it), Wand of CLW, Masterwork Thieve's tools, Cold Iron Gauntlet w/ finger slits (for unarmed striking)
Mumkhar uses Alchemical Allocation, Amplify Elixer extract, and Extend Potion discovery to keep his CL 20 GMF active on both claws and bite as well as unarmed all the time (60 hour duration), so they always have +5 enhancement. When mutagen is not available, he uses Undead Anatomy I as a backup source of claw/claw/bite. His beastmorph affords him flight (which Wings gives him some use of when not in mutagen), POUNCE, and trip most of the time, though he can change it when preparing one, too. The mutagen itself provides +4 dex and +2 natural armor, boosting to hit, damage, initiative, reflex, CMD (and sometimes CMB) by +2 and AC by +4. When he pops Barkskin, he gets another +4 enhancement to natural armor, too.
With his +5d6 sneak attack and good regular damage, he is a terror in melee, and his huge AC and Roll With It (which he can pounce back into melee the next turn anyway; or use his ring to get a full round action) make him difficult to wound. His familiar, Kyoji, grants him Mage Armor (with a Haramaki to fall back on) and has a nice Euphoria breath weapon, some other sorc spells, and good Use Magic Device bonus. Kyoji's telepathy lets Mumkhar scout a bit ahead and still covertly stay in contact with the party.
He is also very skilled, and extracts provide many utility uses and defenses. In particular, Absorb Toxicity gives poison and disease immunity and is used often. Stealth is extremely high (probably would be better off taking the trait that drops +4 stealth/ride for +4 perception...), and Disable Device and Sleight of Hand are also very good. His Alch. Allocation can be used to Shadow Walk the party or give himself +10 acrobatics or perception, too.
Big Norse Wolf: Replace Vagabond Child with Wisdom in the Flesh trait. It will also give you disable device as a class skill, but instead of a +1 bonus, it will also make it work off of wisdom instead of dexterity.
I'll have to remember that one.
If you can spare a feat for Boon Companion, you might also want to go with the Feather (Animal) domain for +1/2 level to Perception and some useful flight spells; the feat will make you end up with a full animal companion anyway.
Pretty good , and then go with an axe beak as the critter..
Dwarf Scout Rogue
Str: 18 (20)
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 16
Int: 10
wis: 14
Cha: 6
Feats & Talents
1: Steel Soul
2: Trap Spotter
3: Power Attack
4: Minor Magic
5: Arcane Strike
6: Weapon Training
7: Medium Armor Proficiency
8: Resiliency
9: Rurious Focus
10: Crippling Strike
Traits
Glory of Old
Heirloom Weapon (Nodachi)
Skills
Acrobatics: 16
Disable Device: 23
Escape Artist: 16
Knowledge (Local): 16
Perception: 20 (25 vs Traps)
Sleight of Hand: 16
Stealth: 16
Gear:
+3 Nodachi
+2 Mithral Breastplate
+2 Ring of Protection
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor
+2 Strength/Dex Belt
+2 Cloak of Resistance
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Masterwork Thieves' Tools
Eyes of the Eagle
BAB: +7/+2
AC: 25
Touch: 16
HP: 78.5
Initiative: +3
Fort Save: +8 (+13 vs Magic)
Refl Save: +12 (+17 vs. Magic)
Will Save: +7 (+12 vs Magic)
Attack: +16/11 (+16/+9 w/Power Attack)
Damage: 1d10 + 11 (2d6+17 w/Power Attack) + 5d6 Sneak Attack
Evaluation: I'm no expert when it comes to building rogues, but I generally tried to put this guy on about the same level of focus/investment as my Inquisitor. I'm not impressed with the results.
He is a bit better at finding and disarming traps, but thanks to the Inquisitor's higher wisdom the difference isn't all that huge. A TWF finesse build would be better at the traps game, but knocking his to-hit down by -4 (-2 for TWF, and I'd be using +1 agile shortswords/kukris instead of a +3 nodachi). Not to mention I lose out on the nice mobility offered by being a scout.
Even with a dwarf who put a feat and a trait into boosting his saves, they're still painful to look at, especially compared to what the Inquisitor was sporting. The to-hit and damage are decent, at first, but once the Inquisitor uses even a single one of his buffs, he leaves the rogue behind.
Half Orc Rogue (Scout archetype) 10 with sacred tattoos and scavenger alternate racial traits
Str 20 (22) Dex 12 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 9
Skills: Acrobatics +14 (+19 for jumping), Diplomacy +12 Disable Device +19 (+24), Intimidate +12, perception +15 (+22 for traps), Stealth +14 (+24), Survival +16, Use Magic Device +12, 1-2 ranks in other skills.
Traits: Blade of the society (+1 to sneak attack damage), Outcast (survival as a class skill, +1 to skill)
Feats/Rogue Talents:
1st: keen scent
2nd: Trapspotting
3rd: Weapon focus (Greataxe)
4th: Minor Talent (mage hand 3/day)
5th: Power Attack
6th: Major Talent (enlarge person 2/day)
7th: Furious Focus
8th: Offensive Defense
9th: Vital Strike
10th: Dispelling attack
Gear: Greataxe +3, mythril chain shirt +2 (improved shadow), Boots of striding and springing, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +1, belt of giant strength +2, handy haversack, trapspringer's gloves, rope of climbing, remainder in consumables and mundane equipment
Evaluation: Since he gets sneak attack every time he moves more than 10 feet, he will be moving a lot, thus the reason for vital strike, power attack and furious focus. Offensively, the greataxe is +17 to hit, doing 2d12+5d6+19 damage, and either doing dispelling attack (if he believes the target is magically boosted) or offensive defense. While his AC is not great, his saves are not bad. Skill wise, he is very very stealthy, spots traps easily, and disables them even more easily. He even has a good tracking skill and can track by scent. He can also enlarge himself two times a day, kicking up his damage a lot.
Is staying single classed required, or just a coincidence thus far?
The most viable rogue build I could possibly make would need a dip out. And on the flipside, several classes can obsolete the rogue more fully and utterly if allowed to dip rogue 1 for trapfinding and the class skills.
Is staying single classed required, or just a coincidence thus far?
The most viable rogue build I could possibly make would need a dip out. And on the flipside, several classes can obsolete the rogue more fully and utterly if allowed to dip rogue 1 for trapfinding and the class skills.
I'd say keeping things single-classed on the rogue end, since it makes evaluating the rogue as a class a lot easier. Otherwise, you get arguments like whether a Rogue X/Other Class Y is good because of its rogue features, or because it stopped taking useless rogue levels. Something like a fighter dip for proficiencies wouldn't be a huge issue, but too many non-rogue levels means the class we've got isn't a rogue anymore.
I'd say multi-classing on replacements is fine, as long it doesn't dip rogue. Kinda hard to say the rogue is replacable as a class if your rogue replacement needs to take rogue levels.
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With a little effort, any class can be made to fulfill the rogues role. Even a fighter, if built for versatility, can eventually manage most of the rogues functions, including finding and disabling traps.
It is just a matter of resource allocation and a willingness build a character that is not min/maxing for DPR.
With a similar amount of effort, I could build an arcane caster capable of acting as group healer, a bard melee dps or a rogue tank. All things are possible and any class can be replaced by another if the desire is there.
Well, let's try...
Str 12, Dex 20 (22), Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
HP: 10d8 +8
AC: 28 (10 +6 armor +3 shield +6 dex +1 deflect +2 luck)
Touch: 19; FF: 22
Saves: Fortitude +7, Reflex +15, Will +9
BAB +7; CMB +8; CMD 27
Rapid Shot Longbow* +14^/+14/+9 (1d8 +2, 19-20/x3) [+5d6 SA]
* +1 attack/damage and +10 SA damage w/in 30 ft
^Extra arrow if first hit lands, though SA does not apply to it
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Skill Focus (Stealth), Hellcat Stealth, Manyshot
Talents: Weapon Training (Longbow), Stand Up, Combat Trick (Precise Shot), Ninja Trick (Combat Trick - Clustered Shots)
Traits: Fate's Favored (+1 to all luck bonuses), the PFS trait for longbow proficiency
Skills (70 +9 [favored class] ):
Acrobatics +19 (10 ranks)
Bluff +14 (10 ranks)
Diplomacy +5 (1 rank)
Disable Device +24 (10 ranks)
Intimidate +5 (1 rank)
Know Dungeon +5 (1 rank)
Know Local +9 (5 ranks)
Perception +17 (10 ranks) [+5 to find traps]
Sense Motive +5 (1 rank)
Sleight of Hand +19 (10 ranks)
Stealth +25 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +14 (10 ranks)
Special: Sacred Tattoo: +1 (+2 w/ trait) luck to saves
Oracle: Waves mystery, Water Sight revelation; Tongues curse
Equipment: Belt of Dex +2, +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Seeking Adaptive Composite Longbow, +2 buckler, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Cloak of Resist +3, Ring of Protect +1, Sniper's Goggles, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Wand of Gravity Bow, Wand of Obscuring Mist, Smoke sticks x10 (alchemical power comp.; keeps fire from burning away Obscuring Mist), arrows
Why Half-Orc? Because darkvision. The luck to saves is also nice. Basically, the rogue puts up an Obscuring Mist using wand or her Oracle spell slots. She is now free to SA any enemy not adjacent to her, and 5 ft step means that's...always. Seeking bow is important to make other forms of concealment a non-issue. Should she fall prone, she can stand as a free action, step back, and keep shooting. Thanks to Sniper's Goggles, foes can't just retreat back beyond 30 ft, and up close she hits harder. Ends up with good AC and decent will for a rogue, fort and hit points are major weak spots.
I wanted to try Rake Rogue w/ Bludgeoner and the Sap Master and Shatter Defenses chains, but that was just WAAAAAAAY too many feats. Plus it'd get rid of trapfinding, which I guess this thread considers important for some reason...
Skill wise, she's decent, especially on disable device. Still not very impressive; attack and damage even with always full attacking and sneak attacking is pretty mediocre. I'm sure a Trapper Ranger archer could be comparable.
With a little effort, any class can be made to fulfill the rogues role. Even a fighter, if built for versatility, can eventually manage most of the rogues functions, including finding and disabling traps.
It is just a matter of resource allocation and a willingness build a character that is not min/maxing for DPR.
With a similar amount of effort, I could build an arcane caster capable of acting as group healer, a bard melee dps or a rogue tank. All things are possible and any class can be replaced by another if the desire is there.
I hate to be that guy but do you want to give specific examples or are you just going to say everyone can do that? Worse, I think people are expecting people to remain competent. I could create a character who takes skill focus at every feat, but that character is likely to suck.
Actually, for the Half-Orc rogue, I can cheese it out a little more still.
Replace Hellcat Stealth and Skill Focus with Keen Scent and...let's say the feat that makes darkvision 120 ft (unless I can find a more useful feat). Keen Scent means the rogue can use Pheremone Arrows to get another +2 attack and damage on foes once they've been covered in the scent.
EDIT: Wait, that requires Wisdom 13... grr... this isn't even a character I'd be playing, I'm putting way too much thought into this.
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I hate to be that guy but do you want to give specific examples or are you just going to say everyone can do that?
I'm not going to spend half the night putting examples together, but I will toss up a fighter I made for a completely unrelated purpose.
Something as simple as switching out Dodge for Additional Traits will give her a more than competent Disable Device and Perception checks. A little fiddling with equipment and she would feel confident in replacing the party rogue.
Female Garuda-Blooded Aasimar (Plumekith) Fighter 15
LG Medium Outsider (human, native)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +22
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Defense
--------------------
AC 45, touch 19, flat-footed 40 (+15 armor, +8 shield, +4 Dex, +3 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 164 (15d10+70)
Fort +18, Ref +14, Will +12 (+4 vs. fear); +2 vs. [evil], +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons
Defensive Abilities bravery +4; Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., flight (20 feet, poor)
Melee Light Shield Bash +25/+20 (1d3+15/x2) and
. . +4 Adamantine Longsword +24/+19/+14 (1d8+24/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +24/+19/+14 (1d8+9/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +5, bows +3, close +4)
Spell-Like Abilities See Invisibility (1/day)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 21, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 12
Base Atk +15; CMB +20; CMD 39 (43 vs. Disarm, 43 vs. Sunder)
Feats Angel Wings, Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh (Steel), Dodge, Greater Shield Focus, Improved Critical (Longsword), Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack -4/+8, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Step Up, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Weapon Specialization (Longsword)
Traits Dangerously Curious, Defender of the Society
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +8, Diplomacy +21, Disable Device +20, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +3, Fly +9, Handle Animal +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (local) +4, Linguistics +7, Perception +22, Ride +7, Sense Motive +5, Sleight of Hand +4, Spellcraft +4, Stealth +1, Survival +6, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +20
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Minkaian, Sylvan
SQ scion of humanity, truespeaker
Combat Gear Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Scroll of Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Enlarge , Scroll of Feather Step, Feather Step, Feather Step, Scroll of Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, G, Scroll of Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility, Scroll of Lead Blades, Lead Blades, Lead Blades, L, Scroll of See Invisibility, See Invisibility, See , Wayfinder, vanishing (1 @ 0 lbs); Other Gear +5 Full plate, +5 Light steel shield, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0), +4 Adamantine Longsword, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +4), Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bracers of falcon's aim, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of dueling, Handy haversack (6 @ 0 lbs), Headband of mental superiority +2 (Disable Device), Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (deep red sphere), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Living garments, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +2, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 169 GP
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Special Abilities
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Angelic Blood +2 saves vs. evil effects, to stabilize while dying, and 1 damage to evil or undead if bleeding.
Angelic Flesh (Steel) +1 natural AC and your natural attacks count as cold iron.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Bravery +4 (Ex) +4 to Will save vs. Fear
Damage Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Cold (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Cold attacks.
Damage Resistance, Electricity (5) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defender of the Society +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Flight (20 feet, Poor) You can fly!
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Living garments On command, change coloring, fit, and basic design. Repairs 1 hp a round.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Scion of Humanity Count as a human for any effect related to race. Pass as human without using disguise.
Scroll of Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person, Enlarge Person Add this item to create a scroll with spells on it.
Scroll of Feather Step, Feather Step, Feather Step, Feather Step, Feather Step Add this item to create a scroll with spells on it.
Scroll of Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow, Gravity Bow Add this item to create a scroll with spells on it.
Scroll of Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility, Invisibility Add this item to create a scroll with spells on it.
Scroll of Lead Blades, Lead Blades, Lead Blades, Lead Blades, Lead Blades Add this item to create a scroll with spells on it.
Scroll of See Invisibility, See Invisibility, See Invisibility, See Invisibility, See Invisibility Add this item to create a scroll with spells on it.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Shield Master No off-hand penalties for shield bashes, add a shield's enhancement bonus to attack rolls.
Shield Slam Shield Bash attack gives a free bull rush on a hit.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Truespeaker Learn two languages for each rank you put in Linguistics.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +5 (Ex) +5 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training (Bows) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training (Close) +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Close-in weapons
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With a few modifications, I'm certain Foxy Slicey could make a damn good "Rogue"... Maybe make her Human and add 2 levels of Trapper Ranger to take care of Trapfinding and make sure no Rogue is needed ever again...
And she would be infinitely better in combat as well, of course...
Ok, I´m here! Rogue defense lawyer xD
Str 10, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 11
HP: 5d8 +10
AC: 20 (10 +3 armor +6 dex +1 size)
Touch: 17; FF: 13
Saves: Fortitude +4, Reflex +12, Will +4
BAB +3; CMB +2 ; CMD 18
Main Hand +10 - 1d4+ 3d6 + 1 + 3 bleed
Off Hand +9 - 1d4+ 3d6 + 1 + 3 bleed
Feats: Weapon Finesse, TWF, Skill Focus(Disable D.)
Rogue Talents: Weapon Training, Bleeding Attack.
Skills (45 points):
Acrobatics +16 (5 ranks)
Bluff + 9 (5 ranks)
Climb + 10 (5 ranks)
Disable Device +21 (5 ranks)
Escape Artist + 14 (5 ranks)
Perception +11/ +13 vs trap (5 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +14 (5 ranks)
Stealth +18 (5 ranks)
Use Magic Device +9 (5 ranks)
Equipment: +1 short sword, shot sword, Belt of +2 Dex, +1 Leather armor, cloak of resistance +1, Thieves’ tools, masterwork
Comparing with he first build Level 5 Human Dawnflower Dervish Bard my Stuart Little has better skills, better saves, hp, and if sneaking twice the bard dpr.
I think this lvl 5 comparison don´make the bard replace the rogue. I will post lv 10 and 15 builds later.
Ok, I´m here! Rogue defense lawyer xD
** spoiler omitted **
Comparing with he first build Level 5 Human Dawnflower Dervish Bard my Stuart Little has better skills, better saves, hp, and if sneaking twice the bard dpr.
I think this lvl 5 comparison don´make the bard replace the rogue. I will post lv 10 and 15 builds later.
You don't state what the race is; that's rather important. Between the size modifier and the fact that all your saves have an unexplained +1 bonus, I'm guessing it's a halfling. (Edit: Nevermind, got edited in while I was posting.)
I'd also point out that while his sneak DPR on a full attack is nice, the non-sneak DPR is just painful to look at. There's also a substantial AC gap, and a big chunk of rogue's Disable Device advantage over the bard comes from taking Skill Focus.
the new pathfinder field agent prestige class in the player companion: pathfinder society primer certainly opens up some new possibilities for building a rogue that really is not a rogue
In another thread, I made a similar challenge and Gignere came up with this sorceror (Sage) build which I thought did a great job of covering the rogue bases. Check the link.
the new pathfinder field agent prestige class in the player companion: pathfinder society primer certainly opens up some new possibilities for building a rogue that really is not a rogue
I actually thought the PrC was worse than a rogue. Slower progressoni of spells/rogue talents/sneak attack than whatever you came into it with, 3/4 BAB and no way to give it oomph, the ability to fail a wild empathy check, and the wayfinder abilities weren't too amazing. Of course the fact you had to use a standard wayfinder and couldn't use a special one, then had to pay extra to replace it was kind of a kick to the face.
You don't state what the race is; that's rather important. Between the size modifier and the fact that all your saves have an unexplained +1 bonus, I'm guessing it's a halfling. (Edit: Nevermind, got edited in while I was posting.)I'd also point out that while his sneak DPR on a full attack is nice, the non-sneak DPR is just painful to look at. There's also a substantial AC gap, and a big chunk of rogue's Disable Device advantage over the bard comes from taking Skill Focus.
I edit some things that are missing. See now.
Yes, the non-sneak DPR is low..but isn´t too difficult to do sneak attacks like people think. And the thread is to replace rogue so you need to reach the rogue sneak attack damage.
The Disable D. diference is 8 points...just 3 from the skill focus.
You don't state what the race is; that's rather important. Between the size modifier and the fact that all your saves have an unexplained +1 bonus, I'm guessing it's a halfling. (Edit: Nevermind, got edited in while I was posting.)I'd also point out that while his sneak DPR on a full attack is nice, the non-sneak DPR is just painful to look at. There's also a substantial AC gap, and a big chunk of rogue's Disable Device advantage over the bard comes from taking Skill Focus.
I edit some things that are missing. See now.
Yes, the non-sneak DPR is low..but isn´t too difficult to do sneak attacks like people think. And the thread is to replace rogue so you need to reach the rogue sneak attack damage.
The Disable D. diference is 8 points...just 3 from the skill focus.
Yeah, saw the edits. Everything looks good now.
Oh yes, a competent rogue is going to work real hard to have a flank-buddy or some other means of securing a sneak attack. However, sometimes things just don't work out that way. It depends a lot on the party; flanking gets a lot easier if you have something like a summoning-focused caster who can drop flanking buddies onto the field for the rogue. Even with a flanking buddy there are still things like concealment, fortification, and enemies who are outright immune to sneak attack. Non-sneak DPR does need to be looked at, just like a bard needs to consider buffed and unbuffed DPR.
The bard did leave out Masterwork Thieves Tools, which are a pittance at level five WBL. Still, the Rogue's Disable Device is indisputably better.
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12
HP: 10d8 +20
AC: 21 (10 +3 armor +7 dex +1 size + 1dodge)
Touch: 19; FF: 13
Saves: Fortitude +8(+10 fear), Reflex +18(+21trap), Will +9(+11 fear)
BAB +7; CMB +6 ; CMD 24
Haste +17 - 1d4+ 5d6 + 2 + (Offensive Defense + 5 dodge bonus ca)
Main Hand +17/+12 - 1d4+ 5d6 + 2 + 5 bleed
Off Hand +17 - 1d4+ 5d6 + 2 + (Offensive Defense + 5 dodge bonus ca)
Traits: Reactionary +2 inic. Eyes and Ears of the City +1 perception
Feats: Weapon Finesse, TWF, Skill Focus(Disable D.), dodge, Weapon Focus
Rogue Talents:Bleeding Attack, Offensive Defense, minor magic (detect magic), major magic (vanish), Hunter´s Surprise.
First 2 hit rise the Ca to 31
Hunter´s suprise and a high initiative allow the rogue sneak the first 3 rounds without need to flank.
Skills (90 points):
Acrobatics +22 (10 ranks)
Bluff + 14 (10 ranks)
Climb + 17 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +33 (10 ranks)
Escape Artist + 20 (10 ranks)
Perception +19/ +24 vs trap (10 ranks)
Sleight of Hand +20 (10 ranks)
Stealth +24 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +14 (10 ranks)
Equipment: +2 short sword, +2 shot sword, Belt of +4 Dex, Padded armor +2, cloak of resistance +3,
Thieves’ tools masterwork, Climber’s kit, headbadn wis +2, Boots of Speed.
Sohei Monk 1/Scout Rogue 9:
Human Sohei Monk 1 / Scout Rogue 9
Str 10, Dex 20 (22), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14
HP: 10d8 +20
AC: 24 (10 +6 armor +6 dex +1 deflect +1 dodge)
Touch: 18; FF: 17
Saves: Fortitude +10, Reflex +17, Will +9
BAB +6; CMB +6; CMD 22
Unarmed Strike +13/+13/+8 (1d6+2, 20/x2) [5d6+10 SA*]
*Against flat-footed opponents SA non-lethal damage will be 10d6+30, which will be constant thanks to the combination of scout archetype and enforcer/shatter defenses feats.
Feats: (H=human bonus, R=rogue talent, M=monk bonus)
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1M-Improved Unarmed Strike
1M-Dodge
1H-Enforcer
3R-Rogue Finesse
3- Sap Adept
5R-Weapon Training
5- Dazzling Display
7R-Offensive Defense
7- Sap Master
9R-Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9- Knockout Artist
Traits: Indomitable Faith (+1 will save), Reactionary (+2 Init)
Skills (76 + 9 favored class bonus):
Acrobatics +19 (10 ranks)
Bluff +15 (10 ranks)
Disable Device +23 (10 ranks)
Intimidate +15 (10 ranks)
Perception +13 (10 ranks) [17 to find traps]
Sleight of Hand +19 (10 ranks)
Stealth +19 (10 ranks)
Use Magic Device +15 (10 ranks)
Sense Motive +4 (1 rank)
Know Local +4 (1 rank)
Know Dungeon +4 (1 rank)
Climb +4 (1 rank)
Swim +4 (1 rank)
Equipment: Belt of Dex +2, +2 Mithral Chain shirt, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, Cloak of Resist +3, Ring of Protect +1
After he hit the first time, opponent will be flat-footed until the end of his next turn, triggering 10d6+30 SA non-lethal damage per attack. Scout archetype treats the opponent as if he were flat-footed for the first attack, triggering your huge SA damage too, so you can constantly use SA withouth having to flank. Also, offensive Defense can give you 10 dodge bonus to AC per turn as long as you keep your target flat-footed.
Besides this, he got enough skills to be effective in the rogue roles, like scout and trap disarm. I guess this beat all other builds here, hehe.
The full feat list up to 20 can be found on my rogue thread.
** spoiler omitted **
Well, I'll do a point-by-point comparison vs. my Inquisitor.
Defense: Think I'll have to give this one to the Inquisitor. AC is three points higher, and against spells his touch AC is only one lower. Offensive defense does swing the AC equation in the rogue's favor, but it requires hitting with a melee sneak attack to activate. The Inquisitor also debuff his current melee opponent for -4 attack and damage, so I'd call that a wash with offensive defense. The rogue is close to on par on base saves, but Inquisitor destroys him on saves vs. magic (To be fair, I have an archtype, a feat, and a trait put into saves vs spells, so that's expected).
Offense: Which build wins offensively is going to come down to circumstance and playstyle, to a degree. If he takes a round to buff and turns on his daily powers, the Inquisitor's DPR becomes pretty scary. Likewise, sneak attack DPR on the rogue is nice, but it still has all the limits on sneak attacking. Depending on the enemy, +9 might not be enough to guarantee winning initiative. Vanish SLA and Hunter's Surprise can set up sneak attacks, but they're 2/day and 1/day respectively. Without sneak attack, the build's offensive potential is effectively zero.
Skills: Much as I'd love to find some way to spin this so that my Inquisitor is better, the rogue takes the win on this one. His disable device is fourteen points higher than my Inquisitor's. It's not a complete lost cause, since most high DC traps are magical, which my inquisitor would be dispelling anyway, but it's still a huge gap. Stealth also outpaces my Inquisitor's, but perception is actually pretty close: the rogues has higher perception vs traps, but the Inquisitor has higher perception in general (and matches the rogue on traps when Stonecunning applies).
Final Evaluation: I can't really say my character makes the rogue obsolete. I think that in a group without a rogue he does a decent job of filling the rogue's role, but a rogue still does it better.
Sohei Monk 1/Scout Rogue 9:
** spoiler omitted **
After he hit the first time, opponent will be flat-footed until the end of his next turn, triggering 10d6+30 SA non-lethal damage per attack. Scout archetype treats the opponent as if he were flat-footed for the first attack, triggering your huge SA damage too, so you can constantly use SA withouth having to flank. Also, offensive Defense can give you 10 dodge bonus to AC per turn as long as you keep your target flat-footed.
Besides this, he got enough skills to be effective in the rogue roles, like scout and trap disarm. I guess this beat all other builds here, hehe.
The full feat list up to 20 can be found on...
Your build's sneak attack damage is nice, but an attack bonus of +13/+13/+8 is pretty low for level ten. Damage is nice, but you need to hit first.
The other big issue, for me at least, is that he's only passable at the needed rogue skills. 13 perception is on the low side for a scout.
Sohei Monk 1/Scout Rogue 9:
** spoiler omitted **
After he hit the first time, opponent will be flat-footed until the end of his next turn, triggering 10d6+30 SA non-lethal damage per attack. Scout archetype treats the opponent as if he were flat-footed for the first attack, triggering your huge SA damage too, so you can constantly use SA withouth having to flank. Also, offensive Defense can give you 10 dodge bonus to AC per turn as long as you keep your target flat-footed.
Besides this, he got enough skills to be effective in the rogue roles, like scout and trap disarm. I guess this beat all other builds here, hehe.
The full feat list up to 20 can be found on...Your build's sneak attack damage is nice, but an attack bonus of +13/+13/+8 is pretty low for level ten. Damage is nice, but you need to hit first.
The other big issue, for me at least, is that he's only passable at the needed rogue skills. 13 perception is on the low side for a scout.
I didnt used all the money available for level 10, so its possible to bring it up with belt of dexterity +4 and boots of speed for a total of +14/+14/+14/+9, and thats going to be almost always against flat-footed targets so I guess he have a good chance to hit. The perception cant be helped though, as a headband would give only +1 to it.
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So, one of the more common contentions on the board is whether or not there are other classes that can do the rogue's job better than the rogue. This seems like something that's worth putting to the test, so let's toss up some builds for classes/characters that can replace the rogue, and compared them to proper rogue builds.
Baseline rules:
20 point builds
Standard WBL
No Rules Craziness (Like any method for getting free Wishes)
There are classes that can cherry pick selected parts from the rogue class, just as every other class has functions that can be cherry picked by another.
There isn't a single one that harvest them all, certainly not all the important functions of the rogue.
As far as putting this to the test...what exactly are you looking to accomplish... a reinforcement of a viewpoint you aren't going to change?
You don't want to play rogues? Fine. if you're going to try to say that NO one can play them effectively... you know the inherent problem in proving a negative?
Yeesh, hostile much?
I thought the point of the thread was self-evident from the initial premise: putting the frequent assertion that other classes are better at doing the rogue's job than the rogue to the test. So far, I haven't seen any build that makes the rogue obsolete. There are plenty that can passably fill his role, but that's not the same thing. I have seen some fun rogue and non-rogue builds, though.
I didnt used all the money available for level 10, so its possible to bring it up with belt of dexterity +4 and boots of speed for a total of +14/+14/+14/+9, and thats going to be almost always against flat-footed targets so I guess he have a good chance to hit. The perception cant be helped though, as a headband would give only +1 to it.Sohei Monk 1/Scout Rogue 9:
** spoiler omitted **
After he hit the first time, opponent will be flat-footed until the end of his next turn, triggering 10d6+30 SA non-lethal damage per attack. Scout archetype treats the opponent as if he were flat-footed for the first attack, triggering your huge SA damage too, so you can constantly use SA withouth having to flank. Also, offensive Defense can give you 10 dodge bonus to AC per turn as long as you keep your target flat-footed.
Besides this, he got enough skills to be effective in the rogue roles, like scout and trap disarm. I guess this beat all other builds here, hehe.
The full feat list up to 20 can be found on...Your build's sneak attack damage is nice, but an attack bonus of +13/+13/+8 is pretty low for level ten. Damage is nice, but you need to hit first.
The other big issue, for me at least, is that he's only passable at the needed rogue skills. 13 perception is on the low side for a scout.
Well, bumping to attack up another point helps. Hitting flat-footed can be amazingly useful or worthless depending on the opponent, so there'll be some campaign variance on that.
Honestly, I think campaign variance is one of the bigger issues rogues have. Rogues seem to have a lot of power shifts depending on the party's playstyle and what enemies they commonly face. At least it's not as bad as 3.5, where any undead-themed campaign made rogues near-useless.
the whole point of classes that obsolete the rogue is
that they can passably perform a subset of their role, and outshine them in either combat, spellcasting, or similar valuable talent
a lot of these guys, don't do as well against traps as they rogue, but they compensate in other areas, some of which have been associated with the rogue for decades
social skills
trapfinding
scouting
DPR
many of these classes outshine the rogue in 2 of these areas, usually not trapfinding
for example, some combination of social, scouting, and DPR, or they provide a 4th category to outshine them in, such as defense or spellcasting while still being passable at most of the relevant skill oriented areas
it doesn't matter whether or not you can do the traps 150% of the time, just that you can do them reliably. (more than 50% accuracy)
First off, the point is supposed to be that other classes are comparable to what rogue can do, and thus are replacement options. They also tend to offer other things beyond being a rogue, like spells.
Ok, I´m here! Rogue defense lawyer xD
** spoiler omitted **
Comparing with he first build Level 5 Human Dawnflower Dervish Bard my Stuart Little has better skills, better saves, hp, and if sneaking twice the bard dpr.
Well, I did forget the masterwork tools, so DD is only down by 6, a +15 is probably sufficient at 5th level.
It is not better DPR. 1d4 +3d6 +1 +3 bleed is 14 avg. damage and 3 bleed. That's with sneak attack. Without, it's an anemic 3.5 damage. Meanwhile, with battle dancer (which the bard chooses when it applies all on his own), my guy is doing 1d6 +12, an average of 15.5 damage. Your guy does have TWF, but he also has lower to hit (which will hurt DPR), and getting a full attack is hardly a guarantee, let alone a full attack SA.
Saves are marginally better, mostly due to choice of race.
HP is higher due solely to FC bonus, which I threw to bonus spells known. IF I had thrown it to hp, they'd be tied. I don't mind you tossing them to hp and all, but you don't seem to recognize the power of additional spells known as the tradeoff for it.
Skills themselves are a mixed bag; the bard has the same skill points effectively, thanks to versatile performance. The rogue overall does have more skills w/ higher bonuses.
In any case, on top of being competitive with rogue in all these areas... my bard also sports much better AC and spellcasting, which gives him functions the rogue simply doesn't have. Many spells outright enhance his skill monkey role, too. Charm is for when diplomacy fails or there is a lack of time. Invisibility is uber stealth. Sift and Open/Close let him investigate things from afar.
I really feel the need to note that this Bard wasn't even built to replace a rogue with much effort. His feats are geared towards the Crane Wing chain, which hasn't even reached payoff yet. He did spend a trait and skill points for Disable Device, everything else is just stuff I'd have done for a Dawnflower Dervish normally.
Can the rogue be replaced? Seems like, yes.
Since I'm actually playing a rogue, i thought I'd run one up to 10th level. Just to look at some of the options.
Male Human (Kellid) Rogue 10
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +18
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 68 (10d8+15)
Fort +6, Ref +11 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +7; +2 trait bonus vs. illusion
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=14), trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Cold Iron Dagger +12/+7 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
+1 Silver Dagger +12/+7 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
+2 Gladius +12/+7 (1d6+4/19-20/x2) and
Club +9/+4 (1d6+2/x2)
Ranged +3 Composite shortbow (Str +2) +13/+8 (1d6+5/x3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +5d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 23
Feats Alertness, Dodge, Far Shot, Iron Will, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Shadow Strike, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Traits Resilient, Skeptic
Skills Acrobatics +16, Appraise +10, Bluff +11, Climb +13, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +21, Disguise +9, Escape Artist +13, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (local) +9, Linguistics +6, Perception +18 (+23 to locate traps), Sense Motive +18, Sleight of Hand +12, Stealth +16, Swim +11, Use Magic Device +12
Languages Celestial, Common, Elven, Goblin, Hallit
SQ rogue talents (bonus feat, combat trick, fast stealth, finesse rogue, weapon training), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear Smokestick; Other Gear +3 Mithral Chain shirt, +1 Cold Iron Dagger, +1 Silver Dagger, +2 Gladius, +3 Composite shortbow (Str +2), Arrows (30), Club, Cloak of resistance +1, Goggles of night, Handy haversack (1 @ 25.14 lbs), Ring of feather falling, Backpack (5 @ 9 lbs), Belt pouch (7 @ 1 lbs), Blanket, Chalk (2), Flint and steel, Silk rope, Thieves' tools, Tindertwig (3), Torch (3), Waterskin, 1243 GP, 9 SP, 5 CP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Far Shot Halve the range increment penalty for extended range.
Fast Stealth (Ex) You may move at full speed while using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Mobility +4 to AC against some attacks of opportunity.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Ring of feather falling Feather fall activates if you fall more than 5 ft.
Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against targets with some concealment.
Skeptic +2 save vs. illusion.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
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a full attack sneak attack is indeed difficult to pull off.
unless you play with 3.5 Unearthed Arcana's facing rules, where you can sneak attack from the back and the sides, and where shields only protect you from the front,
which makes sword and board, an inferior style
and triples the rate sneak attack procs, giving rogues either a +2, or giving them +4 and an attack against flatfooted AC.
in fact, Facing Penalizes your for turning around or moving backward, and penalizes you for attacking enemies that are at your back and sides.
Called Shot Rules tend to be dependant on either massive penalties or critical hits, and many, tend to offer unpleasant results, either people keep making headshots for the instant kill, they target unarmored areas for extra damage, or the reward is pointless for the effort.
Str 14 (16), Dex 20 (24), Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 5
HP: 10d10 +10
AC: 27 (10 +6 armor +3 shield +6 dex +1 deflect +1 natural)
Touch: 18; FF: 21
Saves: Fortitude +12, Reflex +17, Will +7
BAB +10; CMB +12; CMD 30
Rapid Shot Longbow +19^/+19/+14 (1d8 +5, 19-20/x3)
With F-B's Bane and Deadly Aim: +19^/+19/+14 (1d8 +14, 19-20/x3)
^2nd arrow if first hits
*Within 30 ft, +1 attack/damage
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot [B], Endurance [B], Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Imp. Precise Shot [B], Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Manyshot [B]
Traits: Defensive Strategist, Pragmatic Activator
Skills (80 +10 FC bonus):
Disable Device +27 (10 ranks)
Fly +17 (10 ranks)
Handle Animal +5 (5 ranks)
Heal +5 (1 rank)
Know Dungeon +6 (1 rank)
Know Geo +6 (1 rank)
Know Nature +7 (2 ranks)
Spellcraft +15 (10 ranks)
Perception +22 (10 ranks) [+5 to find traps; +2 in dim light / dark]
Stealth +20 (10 ranks) [+2 in dim light / dark]
Survival +14 (10 ranks) [+5 to follow tracks]
Use Magic Device +12 (10 ranks)
Gear: +2 Adaptive Composite Longbow, +2 Mithral Chain Shirt, +2 Buckler, Belt of Dex +4, Iuon Stone of Str +2 (god it pisses me off that all physicals are tied to the belt), Cloak of Resist +3, Ring of Protect +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Eyes of the Eagle, Wand of Gravity Bow, M-work Thief's Tools, arrows
Special: Tough (+1 fort save) racial feature
If there is a trait outside of Magical that works like Dangerously Curious, replace Defensive Strategist with that and UMD goes up to +16.
This Ranger features a party buff, Freebooter's Bane, as a move action for untyped +3 to hit and damage vs. a foe. He has trapfinding just like the rogue, and covers most of the rogue's skills, other than social ones. His ranged full attack with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim can be quite powerful: up to four arrows landing for 19.5 damage each at point blank, and that goes to 22 if gravity bow is running, all while still having better attack than most level 10 rogue archers. He also has flight and dark and lowlight vision.
One level of rogue or play an urban ranger, rogue is replaced. Trapfinding is their sole ability that a party might find useful.
One thing I've noticed while looking at the archetypes that grant trapfinding; most of them do come with trade-offs that make me wince. Urban Ranger gives up favored terrain for an ability that's borderline useless in a lot of campaigns. Trapper has to give up spellcasting. Archeologist loses bardic performance and versatile performance, Seeker Sorcerers lose two bloodline powers, and so on.
After a little looking, I've settled on a Seeker Oracle.
Half-Orc Seeker Oracle 10
Str: 7
Dex: 14 (16)
Con: 14 (16)
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 20 (24)
Racial Subs
Sacred Tattoo
Scavenger
Traits
Reactive
Valishmal Veteran
Feats
1: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3: Augment Summoning
5: Superior Summoning
7: Improved Initiative
9: Extra Revelation: Cloak of Darkness
Revelations
1: Many Forms
7: Wings of Darkness
Skills
Disable Device: 26
Diplomacy: 20
Perception: 19 (26 vs Traps)
Stealth: 20
Use Magic Device: 20
HP: 9d8 + 42
AC: 24 (26)
Touch: 16
FF: 23
Init: +9
Fort: +10
Refl: +10
Will: +12
Gear:
+4 Charisma Headband
+2 Dex/Con Belt
+2 Amulet
+2 Ring
+3 Cloak
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Spells
0th Level: Create Water, Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic, Spark, Stabilize, Virtue
1st Level(8/day): Cure Light Wounds, Entropic Shield, Summon monster I, Protection from Evil, Bless, Burning Disarm, Liberating Command, Shield of Faith, Weapon against Evil
2nd Level(8/day): Cure Moderate Wounds, Dust of Twilight, Summon Monster II, Lesser Restoration, Sound Burst, Shield Other, Resist Energy, Calm Emotions
3rd Level(8/day): Cure Serious Wounds, Tongues, Summon Monster III, Dispel Magic, Magic Vestment, Prayer, Stone Shape
4th Level(6/day): Cure Critical Wounds, Black Tentacles, Summon Monster IV, Blessing of Fervor, Restoration, Death Ward
5th Level(4/day): Mass Cure Light Wounds, Feebleminded, Summon Monster V
Evaluation: He does a passable job of keeping up with the rogue when it comes to scouting duties, especially thanks to flight and shapeshifting as options. However, it's hard to compare the rogue's sneak attacking to a caster with just about no damage spells.