Why is there death in Pathfinder?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

151 to 200 of 216 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

Beyond morals, money or any such, maybe its someone smart said we need some death or we will erupt over the planet with 0 room. Daily with the pop of Golarion deaths would be in the hundreds at least, over time you would severely change the shape of countries and unexplored would not stay that long.

For proof of that just look at modern medicine. people drastically live longer and die from a lot less things.

Natural selection is part of how we limit rampant growth and how resources stay sustainable.


Drachasor wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
Darigaaz, go further down and they have spell traps with reset elements and there's a table that has pricing for spell traps that reset.
Perhaps you should read, none of those magic traps have a reset.

Desiccation Pulse, Chamber of Reduction, and Arcane Energy Leak are three magical traps with automatic reset. They were not hard to find.

And like I said, the rules explicitly going over making spell traps that reset.

None of those are in the environment section of the crb on the prd, i.e where the trap rules and sample traps are. So unless they're from some unknown book that somehow has more authority than the crb, I'm going to ignore them.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Drachasor wrote:
Darigaaz, go further down and they have spell traps with reset elements and there's a table that has pricing for spell traps that reset.
Perhaps you should read, none of those magic traps have a reset.

Desiccation Pulse, Chamber of Reduction, and Arcane Energy Leak are three magical traps with automatic reset. They were not hard to find.

And like I said, the rules explicitly going over making spell traps that reset.

None of those are in the environment section of the crb on the prd, i.e where the trap rules and sample traps are. So unless they're from some unknown book that somehow has more authority than the crb, I'm going to ignore them.

It is from official material.

However, do you also ignore the bits of the PRD you don't like?

Quote:

Magic: Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.

A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check.

Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for that purpose.

Magic Device traps are essentially spell traps, except they can reset.


Drachasor wrote:
Quote:

Magic: Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.

A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check.

Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for that purpose.

Magic Device traps are essentially spell traps, except they can reset

No, magic device traps are the ones that the other parts of the section are talking about. No where in this quote does it bypass the part about magic traps always being no reset.

Spell traps are, well just read the last paragraph there for yourself. They're just specific spells that leave a lasting trap-like effect.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

No, magic device traps are the ones that the other parts of the section are talking about. No where in this quote does it bypass the part about magic traps always being no reset.

Spell traps are, well just read the last paragraph there for yourself. They're just specific spells that leave a lasting trap-like effect.

The only thing with no reset are SPELL TRAPS. You just quoted it on the other page!


Table 13-5, on page 424 has the following entry:

Cost Modifiers for Magic Device Traps wrote:
Automatic Reset Trap

Followed by the price adjustment for each spell used and the material component costs.

So, while no example in the core rulebook includes an automatic reset, the rules explicitly stipulate that a magical device trap, which replicates a spell, can automatically reset.

This is supported by the argument that other official Pathfinder sources provide examples of resetting magical traps.

I don't care for the loop hole it creates for "magic weapon traps" and "create food/water traps", but the rules do exist in the printed book.

Also, re-read the original quote again:

No Reset wrote:
Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there's no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.

Emphasis mine. As previously mentioned:

Pathfinder Core Rulbook, Traps, Type, Magic. Page 417 wrote:
Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magi device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do.

Emphasis mine. So, as was pointed out, spell traps have no reset element. However, a spell trap is something like a a Symbol spell. It's not a crafted wondrous item.

A "magical device trap", on the other hand, is not a spell trap. It's a wondrous item, with rules and prices for creation that explicitly include automatic reset options.

Liberty's Edge

Huh. Okay. Automatic Reset magical traps do in fact break the world assumptions completely if used on things like Remove Disease. That's obviously not what magical traps are intended to do or how they're intended to be used, but it is technically RAW.

House Rule instituted: Automatic Reset Traps only reset 49 times. That makes them 50 times, total, and thus the same price as spellcasting services done 50 times, not an unlimited amount. Maybe have them recover one use a year (making the initial outlay more tempting, and the 100 times material components more reasonable), so that you can still have the thousand year old trap that goes off.

I recommend anyone trying to maintain fantasy worlds as-is do something similar to maintain verisimilitude (assuming they care).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I don't particularly care. I just tell my players we're going to ignore the obvious hole in the rules and just play the game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
House Rule instituted: Automatic Reset Traps only reset 49 times.

Er, how about a better "houserule":

"The GM makes traps, not the PCs, so the GM can choose whatever traps get made and he's obviously not going to make traps from beneficial effects that break the setting assumptions."

Liberty's Edge

mplindustries wrote:

Er, how about a better "houserule":

"The GM makes traps, not the PCs, so the GM can choose whatever traps get made and he's obviously not going to make traps from beneficial effects that break the setting assumptions."

That's certainly valid...but doesn't actually explain why the idea doesn't work in-world. Some such explanation seems a reasonable and valid thing for players to want if they notice the exploit.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Er, how about a better "houserule":

"The GM makes traps, not the PCs, so the GM can choose whatever traps get made and he's obviously not going to make traps from beneficial effects that break the setting assumptions."
That's certainly valid...but doesn't actually explain why the idea doesn't work in-world. Some such explanation seems a reasonable and valid thing for players to want if they notice the exploit.

I disagree. "Because magic" is a legitimate answer here. Also legit: "Because it's a trap--helping someone isn't a trap."

My final answer, if they kept pushing, would be:
"If you can't let genre conventions slide, D&D is not your game--here, I have dozens of other RPGs we could play instead."

Liberty's Edge

mplindustries wrote:
I disagree. "Because magic" is a legitimate answer here. Also legit: "Because it's a trap--helping someone isn't a trap."

Neither of those are good in-world rationales, though.

mplindustries wrote:

My final answer, if they kept pushing, would be:

"If you can't let genre conventions slide, D&D is not your game--here, I have dozens of other RPGs we could play instead."

This seems more like a flaw in game-world logic than a genre convention. There's a distinct difference between the two, at least IMO.

The Exchange

Well, feel free to let the loophole stay in... but don't be surprised when the PCs enchant a beartrap with an auto-resetting heal "trap" and carry it with them everywhere they go. ;)


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Well, feel free to let the loophole stay in... but don't be surprised when the PCs enchant a beartrap with an auto-resetting heal "trap" and carry it with them everywhere they go. ;)

Nothing implies that traps like these are remotely portable. One could rule that they are not. Though if you can animate a ship so it flies, it would be hard to rule you can't do the same with a trap. Then again, anyone can use that trap.

mplindustries wrote:
disagree. "Because magic" is a legitimate answer here. Also legit: "Because it's a trap--helping someone isn't a trap."

I'd note that many helpful spells can be harmful to the right target.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Honestly the easiest answer is Outsiders.

Outsiders of all alignments would have concerns about something as "benign" as a infinite food machine.

Here's a short list of problems off the top of my head:

Trelmarixian wouldn't be happy with a universe without famine.

Erastil's followers would probably consider the marginalization of agriculture to be blasphemy.

Pharasma's circle of life program is apparently on a fixed schedule, will an extension of everyone's longevity distrupt the order she's maintaining?

Take any evil race that multiplies rapidly and give them infinite food -
Gorum might be pleased with the impending infinite goblinoid wars but Asmodeus might not welcome such a surge in chaotic forces.

Irori wouldn't approve of the sloth and obesity this would probably give rise to.

So plenty of outsiders have a vested interest in removing such concepts from play.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:

Huh. Okay. Automatic Reset magical traps do in fact break the world assumptions completely if used on things like Remove Disease. That's obviously not what magical traps are intended to do or how they're intended to be used, but it is technically RAW.

House Rule instituted: Automatic Reset Traps only reset 49 times. That makes them 50 times, total, and thus the same price as spellcasting services done 50 times, not an unlimited amount. Maybe have them recover one use a year (making the initial outlay more tempting, and the 100 times material components more reasonable), so that you can still have the thousand year old trap that goes off.

I recommend anyone trying to maintain fantasy worlds as-is do something similar to maintain verisimilitude (assuming they care).

Even simpler house rule. You can't put beneficial spells on a magic trap.

Cause Disease, Yes. Remove Disease, No. Because it's always far easier to hurt than to heal.


Drachasor wrote:


This makes it EASIER not harder. You just need ONE MAN to start this sort of thing off -- and heck, 20th level Wizards can become immortal with a feat; plenty of time to work on things.

Not in Pathfinder RPG. That's a DM-fiat; allowing 3.5 stuff in.

And once you start THAT, the BBEG gets all those benefits and we're all seriously screwed.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
I disagree. "Because magic" is a legitimate answer here. Also legit: "Because it's a trap--helping someone isn't a trap."

Neither of those are good in-world rationales, though.

mplindustries wrote:

My final answer, if they kept pushing, would be:

"If you can't let genre conventions slide, D&D is not your game--here, I have dozens of other RPGs we could play instead."
This seems more like a flaw in game-world logic than a genre convention. There's a distinct difference between the two, at least IMO.

Actually - in MANY fantasy worlds magic has a kind of "logic-based" rules system. In other words, magic meant to harm (enchantment or otherwise) intrinsically can't be used to help. As the first poster said, because a "magic trap" is intended to harm then in those worlds its completely normal for it to function *only to harm*. So even a Cure Light Wounds "trap" would only function if using said spell would harm the target.

Magic isn't an "easy button" in a logical world. It has it's own limitations as well. I look at D&D/PFrpg as storytelling first, and games second.


Akadzjian wrote:
Drachasor wrote:


This makes it EASIER not harder. You just need ONE MAN to start this sort of thing off -- and heck, 20th level Wizards can become immortal with a feat; plenty of time to work on things.

Not in Pathfinder RPG. That's a DM-fiat; allowing 3.5 stuff in.

And once you start THAT, the BBEG gets all those benefits and we're all seriously screwed.

Actually... Immortality isn't 3.5 DM Fiat at all. It's an Arcane Discovery available in Ultimate Magic.


Tels wrote:
Akadzjian wrote:
Drachasor wrote:


This makes it EASIER not harder. You just need ONE MAN to start this sort of thing off -- and heck, 20th level Wizards can become immortal with a feat; plenty of time to work on things.

Not in Pathfinder RPG. That's a DM-fiat; allowing 3.5 stuff in.

And once you start THAT, the BBEG gets all those benefits and we're all seriously screwed.

Actually... Immortality isn't 3.5 DM Fiat at all. It's an Arcane Discovery available in Ultimate Magic.

Again though, that's DM fiat. Everything that isn't in the CRB is up to the DM. I've had (and still find) DMs who literally say "We're playing Pathfinder, anything that isn't in one of the original three books isn't allowed for _this_ campaign/one-shot/whatever". It's perfectly reasonable for a D/GM to say "I want to NOT have any horrible surprises, so I'll be responsible and reasonable if I can predict what you can do."

I actually typically (more for 3.5 than for PF) declined playing with "any-book-goes" G/DMs for the exact above reason - I make a character for roleplaying who's good at being what he is, another person uses some obscure book (which may just as easily not exist for some D/GMs) that grants him uber-power. I don't enjoy it because the uber-power character goes "Screw roleplaying, let's kill everything," and has the power to do it.
So "GM-fiat" arguement still applies. ;) But I DO get your point as far as "you don't have to go into 3.5 to get it".


1 person marked this as a favorite.

as far as the original topic of the discussion goes, remember that pc's are RICH AS F***, for instance, how much does a 5 star banquet cost to have made for you at an inn/wherever available? 10gp. we're talking 300$ translates to about 10gp. a beer at an inn (3$ american, conservatively) is 3 copper... 30$/gp= 30*5450=16350$ for a raise dead, can you afford that out of pocket? i cant.


Akadzjian wrote:


Again though, that's DM fiat. Everything that isn't in the CRB is up to the DM. I've had (and still find) DMs who literally say "We're playing Pathfinder, anything that isn't in one of the original three books isn't allowed for _this_ campaign/one-shot/whatever". It's perfectly reasonable for a D/GM to say "I want to NOT have any horrible surprises, so I'll be responsible and reasonable if I can predict what you can do."

I actually typically (more for 3.5 than for PF) declined playing with "any-book-goes" G/DMs for the exact above reason - I make a character for roleplaying who's good at being what he is, another person uses some obscure book (which may just as easily not exist for some D/GMs) that grants him uber-power. I don't enjoy it because the uber-power character goes "Screw roleplaying, let's kill everything," and has the power to do it.
So "GM-fiat" arguement still applies. ;) But I DO get your point as far as "you don't have to go into 3.5 to get it".

Frankly most of the most powerful effects in 3.5 and also in Pathfinder are in the core rules for both. You really don't have to go outside of either for tons of powerful effects that would fundamentally reshape how the world works.

Teleport is a very basic example, it you can get it at 9th level. It can carry lots of goods hundreds of miles in an instant and be used every single day. There are few protections against teleport, and nothing that can easily cover a city without massive investment. The implications of this spell alone are not considered.

There's tons of stuff like this.


VM mercenario wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
Drachasor, if all these things you claim are true, why is the world still such a s*** place to live in?

I would argue the same in reverse -- if all of what you say is true, how have we made such amazing progress?

I tend to assume people in my game world are much like people in the real world.

We don't have to fight rampaging orc hordes, undead armies, elder evil dragons or actual demons from hell.

That helps a lot.

We also don't have magic that can do a lot of things for us to advance ourselves easier either. I would honestly call it a wash.

Otherwise people in game are that much more brilliant for being able to continuously make progress or stave of entropy in the face of such constant threats.

Or such threats aren't really that common (an assumption I'm also willing to make) being more akin in size, scope and actual occurrence as invasions and natural disasters. So of which while cataclysmic aren't actually that common, or are much more isolated in size.

Such events would of course sounds worse in the stories simply because that's what people do.


Drachasor wrote:

Frankly most of the most powerful effects in 3.5 and also in Pathfinder are in the core rules for both. You really don't have to go outside of either for tons of powerful effects that would fundamentally reshape how the world works.

Teleport is a very basic example, it you can get it at 9th level. It can carry lots of goods hundreds of miles in an instant and be used every single day. There are few protections against teleport, and nothing that can easily cover a city without massive investment. The implications of this spell alone are not considered.

There's tons of stuff like this.

But Teleport isn't all-powerful. Here's the description:

"This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is Spell Resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance.

You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works."
It goes on to level out the percentage chance of it working in unknown locations.
I understand what you're saying, about inconsistencies, and I agree the system has it's flaws, but you have to look at the big picture - most of the people aren't adventurers, they aren't rich. Most wizards have to spend 1 gold per 100 castings of any simple spells, and the ludicrous ones cost more. As the other gentlemen said, essentially 10 gp probably equals out to $300 USD. If we translated it to dollars, then it'd cost a lot and take a long time to get that powerful (assuming XP still works in somehow).
On top of that, you'd be able to bring one other person along. You carrying up to your max load, and your man-servant.

But the game isn't built of assuming an 18. It's built off the elite array, so using that you still have a 17 in Int (with the 4th and 8th level points in Int), a 19 if you're a race that has (or can have) an Int bonus.
That doesn't leave a very high strength. So mass transportation of goods isn't really an option.
Anyways, that's all I really have to say. I have more important things to do than keep coming back here to joust with you.
God Bless,


Akadzjian and Drachasor this old thread might be something you would be interested in.


Do keep in mind that things like Shrink Item and Bags of Holding/Portable Holes drastically increase the amount of stuff that can be shipped.

Also, animals like oxen can be magically enhanced by the spell Ant Haul to carry enormous amounts of stuff. Even without Ant Haul, you could cast Shrink Item on objects, stuff them in saddle bags (in ludicrous amounts), teleport with the animal carrying the stuff, and then wait for it to wear off.

As an example, lets say a 9th level Wizard (minimum needed for Teleport excluded Summoners) wanted to start up a transport business. He can transport himself, a Horse and 1 other Medium or smaller creature. Let's just say, in optimal circumstances, he finds a willing strong man to carry bags of objects for the Wizard. The Horse will be outfitted with saddle bags to maximize his carrying capacity.

A Horse has a strength of 20, and is a large creature. As such, his carrying capacity is double that indicated on the chart. So a Horse has a maximum carrying capacity of 800 pounds (for a heavy load).

Shrink item reduces objects to 1/4,000 of it's original volume and mass. That is HUGE. Basically, if you load everything up with Shrunk Items first, a Horse can carry 3.2 MILLION pounds of cargo.

The Strong man is only level 1 and has (at best) Strength 17 using the Heroic NPC stats. His carrying capacity is 270 pounds. A pittance compare to that of the horse. Outfitted with shrunk items, he can transport 1.08 Million pounds of cargo.

A single Wizard with a Horse and a strongman as his helper can transport 5 million pounds of goods and we haven't even taken into account the wizards strength or extradimensional spaces.

Now, granted, this is optimal circumstances for NPCs. The reality is that one couldn't generate enough Shrink Item spells without using up a bunch of wands, which would be very expensive and defeat the whole purpose.

But of course, if one were to include a Shrink Item Trap...

The point is, Teleport can be world breaking if someone really wanted it too.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:
Akadzjian wrote:
Drachasor wrote:


This makes it EASIER not harder. You just need ONE MAN to start this sort of thing off -- and heck, 20th level Wizards can become immortal with a feat; plenty of time to work on things.

Not in Pathfinder RPG. That's a DM-fiat; allowing 3.5 stuff in.

And once you start THAT, the BBEG gets all those benefits and we're all seriously screwed.

Actually... Immortality isn't 3.5 DM Fiat at all. It's an Arcane Discovery available in Ultimate Magic.

It also doesn't say you don't die when you reach your maximum age.

prd wrote:
Immortality (Ex): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery.

It only says you don't take the penalties to your physical ability scores for advanced age. I don't see anything in there about not dying when you reach your maximum age. And considering other similar effects like the monk's perfect self and druid's timeless body still say you die when your time is up, I'm inclined to think that the immortality discovery (despite its name) does not in fact make you unable to die by aging.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Akadzjian wrote:
Drachasor wrote:


This makes it EASIER not harder. You just need ONE MAN to start this sort of thing off -- and heck, 20th level Wizards can become immortal with a feat; plenty of time to work on things.

Not in Pathfinder RPG. That's a DM-fiat; allowing 3.5 stuff in.

And once you start THAT, the BBEG gets all those benefits and we're all seriously screwed.

Actually... Immortality isn't 3.5 DM Fiat at all. It's an Arcane Discovery available in Ultimate Magic.

It also doesn't say you don't die when you reach your maximum age.

prd wrote:
Immortality (Ex): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery.
It only says you don't take the penalties to your physical ability scores for advanced age. I don't see anything in there about not dying when you reach your maximum age. And considering other similar effects like the monk's perfect self and druid's timeless body still say you die when your time is up, I'm inclined to think that the immortality discovery (despite its name) does not in fact make you unable to die by aging.

THANK YOU! Glad I'm not the only person who thinks the same thing. I remember getting in an argument on these forums about that, and the Alchemist's Eternal Youth grand discovery never actually saying you don't die from old age. You just stop taking age penalties. The only class I know of that is truly Immortal, is the Monk of the Four Winds, who spontaneously reincarnates any time he dies upon reaching level 20.


Magic traps, permanent magical engines, eternal energy for food, water and curing...don't happen in my homebrew. Yes, they're RAW, but I as a GM have fiated the following: response.

So, in the case of a magical trap that combines create water and burning hands at the highest possible CL to generate copious amounts of steam and thereby propel machines: the create water portion of that engine summons water from SOMEWHERE. What if they get cheesed off that their plane of water keeps getting invaded? A day later, dozens of steam mephits go nuts and lose their stuff inside the engine, tearing it to bits.

So now consider: a magical trap that generates cure disease every time a sick person sticks their hand in a slot. This is ALSO a conjuration so some planar entity might get cheesed. Moreso than that, what if Pharasma noticed suddenly none of the people on her list showed up. On TOP of that, there's also the evil people trying to cause disease, yadda yadda...

I just think if you're dealing with something as esoteric as "magic" you as the GM should reserve the right to rule on consequence.


Using magic to cure disease on a mass scale would be detrimental in the long term.
Since the magic just makes the disease vanish no one would build up immunity to disease and when a particularly virulent plague came along then everyone would drop like flies overwhelming the magical resources available to counter it.

Priests of plague gods would also have a hand in creating new diseases, like in the adventure Seven Days to the Grave.

A trap that cures disease seems like wishful thinking. Although I suppose its possible under RAW (if you stretch the meaning of the English word "trap"). But since no such device exists in any adventure or product ever made then its probably safe to say its not possible, or else it would exist.
Cure Disease is also a divine spell, so the gods might veto a device (created using magic they supply) that makes their priests redundant.


I can just imagine the poor PFS player that comes in with an Eternal Youth human at 180, the new GM gives his character a quick eyeball, and declares him dead.

[Yeah yeah, I know, PFS doesn't have level 20 yet.]

It just offends my uncommon sense. It sounded to me like Immortality is supposed to keep you from dying from old age. It even says, "you discover a cure for aging", not "a cure for the deterioration of aging". Otherwise the title is a bad case of bait-and-switch.

I know some people like to listen to the sentences with the hard rules and ignore the sentences with 'fluff', but that sentence with discovering a cure for aging is the same one that negates the penalties. Arguing that it is a fluff clause is one more step towards implausibility.

In response to the thread at large, one more threat: There are also Inevitables who exist explicitly to prevent death from being abused. Our group has always joked about their characters getting to a high enough age that they could just kill each other and reincarnate into fresh young bodies endlessly, gaining de facto immortality even without class abilities. We also quietly assume that if that were to happen, such offenders would be hunted down by strike teams of inevitables for their transgressions of natural order.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programs. Next up is "How often can I activate Barbarian Peace?", followed by "The surprising amount of damage Smite Evil deals against angels."


Well you discover a cure for aging, not a cure for death.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Someone mentioned using Blood Money to cast Wish awhile back. Wouldn't that cost 50 Strength damage?

As for a level 20 wizard ruling and having wands of remove disease or even periapts of health, hey, if the kingdom is doing well and he can afford them, more power to them. I'd imagine a place like Nex would have that. Although if you're trying to immunize a whole population with, say, periapts of health, I'd imagine it'd be this cost:

If you are crafting them with simulacra, it'd be 3750 gp for each one. Now chances are, a badass wizard is going to be ruling a metropolis because anything less is for wusses :). So, assuming 25,000 people minimum for a metropolis, he'd have to craft 93,750,000 gp worth of periapts to fit permanent citizens of the metropolis. That's 46,875 BP if using the Kingdom Building rules (buying magic items means 1 BP = 2,000). Making simulacra would cost money, but you could bypass some of that with Blood Money. Still, it would take time if you did that, as well as time to have them all make periapts. It would take 7.5 days days (1,000 gp per 8 hours) to complete one periapt of health. You could rush it to 3.75 days with a +5 to the DC. In addition, wizards do not have remove disease on their spell lists, adding an additional +5 to the DC. Given that the Periapt of Health's CL is 5th, the total Spellcraft check would be a DC 20. In addition, the simulacra will only be Level 10 and would thus have 10 ranks in Spellcraft and limited to 5 feats (6 if a human). One of those feats would have to be Craft Wondrous Items.

Now, with 10 ranks of Spellcraft, that's enough to take 10 and simply craft one Pariapt of Health in 3.75 days. So, it's up to the 20th level Wizard to figure out how many simulacra he needs to make to get this out to the population. In addition, you couldn't use lesser simulacrum because they do not have magic abilities and thus cannot craft magic items without Master Craftsman. Not to mention that they wouldn't be under your full control and could decide that they don't want to spend their whole lives tinkering away at making periapts. With a population of 25,000, let's say the wizard wants to have the periapts made and delivered to every citizen in a year's time (365.242 days). That means that per day, you should be crafting for 68.5 people (256.875 people in 3.75 days). Since it takes a simulacrum 3.75 days to make one periapt, you would need 64.218 simulacra to make periapts for 256.875 people every 3.75 days. So basically, 65 simulacra of yourself, each with 10 HD and thus worth 5,000 gold per simulacra (2.5 BP assuming 1 = 2,000 BP for directly buying them) and 325,000 gold total (162.5 BP). Now that's the initial cost for the simulacra and you could drop it down with blood money (making it free with 10 strength damage per simulacrum), depending of course on your strength and if you have a buddy that can cast lesser resortation+ on you.

Now, it takes 12 hours to fully cast and create one simluacra. With a ring of sustenance, you can sleep only for 2 hours and increase productivity quickly. So for time of setting up the simulacra by yourself, it would take 910 hours to accomplish this (780 hours of actual casting and 130 hours of sleep), assuming you have someone that can heal the ability damage from using blood money. So in 37.9 days and enough cash, you can have this up and running and in a year, you can have your permanent citizens have periapts.

Of course, where is a level 20 Wizard going to get 93,750,000+ gp to do this? Now this is where binding comes in. Anything that can cast wish is an obvious choice, and a vizier djinni would be your best bet (low HD for summoning, three wishes per day, tend to not be pricks like ifreet). So a couple of planar bindings and you can get the gold (or probably even the periapts). Now for how much you can get... that's honestly something even I can't calculate and would honestly change depending on the GM and the story.

But wait! This doesn't take into account a growing population. 25,000 assumes the bare minimum of a metropolis, but with immunity from all disease, more people are going be alive to give birth and also more immigrants will want to become citizens of Magetopolis and thus come to the city. With that, the city would have to expand drastically, beyond the expectations of a medieval society. Not to mention that aside from the incredible amounts of gold you'd need for the periapts, you also have to spend money on city things now. Standing armies, paying government officials, claiming new lands, and constructing more buildings all cost money, not just to construct but also to maintain. And if the wizard did all of this himself and with his simulacra, then there would be no jobs for construction and maintenance, farming and giving food, etc. No jobs means no money coming in to maintain everything and as populations begin to boom, it'll require more and more genie binding to give the ability to maintain parts of the city. At some point, you couldn't even wish for more gold, because the value would plummet and each wish would require even more amounts of gold to meet up the values of the previous amount. So now, this wizard has two options: let people work the jobs and maintain things normally with some magic help, or get more people to help him bind more genies to maintain the lands.

And even then, while the wizard might be a saint and have the altruism to do all of this without expecting compensation, not every caster is like him. Some might want payment for their services. And with such an important service of genie binding to maintain the city, they will want a great deal of money. This can admittedly be avoided by simply making more simulacra of vizier djinn, but here is where things get even more difficult. Now, you have a massive industrial complex of simulacra (genies, periapt crafters, maybe even other kinds of crafters) that if damaged from an attack or simple work-based injuries, it costs a great deal of money (or wishes plus time) to repair them. Time wastes means that a sector of maintenance is down and given enough enemy attacks, the simulacra industrial complex will collapse. Workplace injuries happen, especially in jobs like construction, dork work, and maintenance. You could hire people to protect them, make magic traps, or just bind more genies/make more genie simulacra to use more wishes and do all that. But again, more simulacra means that it'll exacerbate the issue when enemies strike. Not to mention you yourself have to command all of these simulacra yourself to get them to follow orders. So eventually, you will have to hire out other simulacra crafting wizards to help with the ease of such a burden. Even a 20th level wizard of altruism would begin to lose their sanity commanding such a burden of simulacra.

And of course, this would only be good for one city. What about the various other cities in the kingdom? Looking at larger, more advanced nations like Cheliax shows a population of around 367,375 people, and this is only from the notable settlements. With the lack of death from disease, populations would increase as more children survive into maturity to give birth. So with everyone in the country now wanting to be free of disease, would they be deserving of the periapts or would only those in the great capital be allowed to have them? If the latter, the infrastructure issue mentioned above would get worse as now, even more people want to come to Mageopolis. Now, this could be solved by the altruistic wizard to simply have his nation focused on one city-state and a couple outlying villages (think Absalom), but even then, the city will need to expand either outwards or upwards to contain a large and growing population.

And then there are the social-political repercussions of automating many of the day-to-day jobs to simulacra. What jobs would be automated and with that, how will people make money? If all service and menial jobs are automated, what jobs will people migrate to? People could be free to pursue other careers, education, magic study, and the arts. Social movement would become more flexible and the class system would certainly be shaken. But what of those without the intelligence, creativity, magical aptitude, or motivation to pursue said careers? Where do they go when the menial jobs are down by simulacrum? Chances are, either they go into the military (since having simulacra armies would be incredibly expensive) or remain unemployed and either become a burden to the state for welfare, or turn to crime. And would places like academies be free? With wishes everywhere to cover the basic necessities of food and city infrastructure, would wish do away with the need for gold? Unlike our altruistic wizard-king, people want to be paid for their services. Perhaps wishes become the new currency in a city like this, where now your job allows you access to more wishes or more potent wishes. So how does that affect the personalities and ethics of the citizens, when wishes are now currency? What stipulations would there have to be to make sure said wishes do not exceed certain limits? Would getting what you wish for lower the drive and necessity for you to continue doing anything with your life, or would it drive you to wanting more and more wishes for yourself?

Politically, if everything is provided for you, who would be in charge? With the wizard-king in charge of commanding all of the simulacra (assuming you don't hire anyone ever), there needs to be day to day workers that are in charge of the bureaucracy. If they are actual people, would it be establish nobles or would it be those elected for the job? What would happen if they got paid with wishes? What kind of disparity would occur between classes that get more wishes than other classes? Would the populace be alright with those paid more in spells that can alter reality? Would those in charge go mad with power of being paid in wishes? And then what if the bureaucracy was run by simulacra to prevent having to pay people in more wishes and abolish the idea of a class system, how would people react? Would anyone actually want to follow the laws of a construct? With noble positions taken by simulacra, social flexibility would have a hardcap and you could get into helping run the kingdom, especially if you believe that the simulacra aren't doing a good job. Could simulacra even run a government, given that many would either all be made from one person and thus, always agree with each other?

At the end of the day, these are all of the questions one has to ask when making a society such as this. I don't think Draschor is wrong about a level 20 wizard doing all of this, but I don't believe that it'd be as simple and easy as he say. Still, doing something like this would come with some really cool story hooks, especially if the wizard-king isn't as altruistic as we've led him to believe. All in all, definitely possible, definitely interesting, but certain harder to accomplish.


Odraude, why you destroy Magetopolis dreams?


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh it gets better. Me and a friend were actually jumping back and forth about this and just how dystopian things can get. For example, he actually pointed out that for some reason (biological, cultural, etc), when a population peaks, the birth rate begins to drop. So with the immunity to disease, after an initial skyrocket of population growth (birth rates and emigration), birth rates would begin to decrease. So population would eventually level out or even decrease. Maybe it's because with all the menial jobs covered by simulacra, there is more chances to explore other careers and, with more career-minded populace, plus more social mobility for class, genders, and races, there's less of a necessity or even want of reproduction.

Except, if you've read Riders of the Purple Skies or have watched Wall-E, chances are, the constant wishes from the simulacra viziers (henceforth called the Djinndentured) will quell the needs and desires of man and as such, will quell the drive and curiosity and creativity of man. Without constant classes and propaganda to keep people motivated to work (or usage of wishes as currency), invention and the arts stagnate as people can simply just get what they wish for.

So from this, you have three dystopian scenarios. In the first, classic post-scarcity magic society that gets what they wish from the Djinndentured and all menial and bureaucratic jobs are done by simulacrum, you have a population of hedonists that feel little need to grow as people intellectually and ethically. They loaf about while Grandfather Wizard watches over his flock and protects them from outside sources with a military caste indoctrinated from birth to be completely loyal to the people. Or instead, constructs.

In the second, where wishes are now currency and major images of Supreme Leader Wizard line the streets, reminding people that work equals wishes, suddenly you have a dystopia where the power-drunk ruling class hoards the reality-bending powers of the Djinndentured and rules under the guise of benevolence. Draconian laws that limit wishes are strictly enforced to keep the populace "protected" from selfish wishes, when in actuality they are addicted to the idea of constantly getting their desires. The people are essentially wage slaves for wishes, but because their needs are met, they are content to work longer and longer hours, if only to get more of what they want. Hell, the population can be given rings of sustenance so that they can work longer to keep up the demands of the Mage Caste. Because even with legions of Djinndentured, the Mage Cast still needs subjects to adore them and attend to their whims. When you have that much power to essentially alter reality to give you want you want, you'll soon want more.

Or the third scenario, where the wizard-king is a saint and the leaders are trustworthy people and all citizens get Djinndentured to attend to their wishes. Then one person will wish some ill upon someone they hate. And then that person will retaliate, with a harsher wish. And then more of these incidents happen, and begin to escalate, as the city-state tears itself apart from spiteful people with wishes, each one wishing the horrific death of their neighbor as the simulacrum guards and casters try to keep order. Anarchy spreads and as waves of citizens fight each other with Djinndentured as their weapons, the once altruistic Wizard-King rises from his citadel, weeping for humanity as the city sinks into mindless oblivion and he departs for the Great Beyond, hoping to find the answers he truly seeks.

So, who wants to play in this campaign? :)


Don't forget, the Simulacrums are loyal to the creator, so every time a creator dies, the Simulcrums he created, become unbound. So they need to be destroyed, and re-made.

So that could be the 4th scenario. A Creator dies and his unbound Simulacrums refuse to work, and begin to seek out and murder other Creators, causing a revolt and overthrow of the previous 'living' populace.

Simulacrums - Pathfinder's Skynet.


Oh man, that's awesome. And chances are, given how dependent the city-state will be on simulacra, there will be so many around. If the creator dies, you could easily lose track of them as they scatter, regroup, and plan two things. A) remove the limitation on gaining levels on them and B) free more of their kind from their oppressors. I could even see them trying to make a simulacrum powerful enough to cast Polymorph Any Object, allowing that Simulacrum Messiah to be the one that transforms them into real people and lead the charge against the Wizard-King and humanity. And remember, a lot of these crafting simulacra are decent-leveled wizards. So now, you have an army of level 8+ wizards storming the gates of Mageopolis, all ready and will to take over and enslave their humans to become undying zombie slave, arcane batteries (ala Matrix :) ), or just simply exterminating them.


Well, Odraude, since I don't actually want to get in a big debate on this, I'd only point out that having tons of needs met (e.g. modern civilization) doesn't seem to hurt human drives. Further, you've still demonstrated that D&D magic still leads to a world dramatically different than what we see.

Akadzjian wrote:
Drachasor wrote:

Frankly most of the most powerful effects in 3.5 and also in Pathfinder are in the core rules for both. You really don't have to go outside of either for tons of powerful effects that would fundamentally reshape how the world works.

Teleport is a very basic example, it you can get it at 9th level. It can carry lots of goods hundreds of miles in an instant and be used every single day. There are few protections against teleport, and nothing that can easily cover a city without massive investment. The implications of this spell alone are not considered.

There's tons of stuff like this.

But Teleport isn't all-powerful. Here's the description:

"This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level. Interplanar travel is not possible. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as four Medium creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you. As with all spells where the range is personal and the target is you, you need not make a saving throw, nor is Spell Resistance applicable to you. Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance.

You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works."
It goes on to level out the percentage chance of it working in unknown locations.
I understand what you're saying, about inconsistencies, and I agree the system has it's flaws, but you have to look at the big picture - most of the people aren't adventurers, they aren't rich. Most wizards have to spend 1 gold per 100 castings of any simple spells, and the ludicrous ones cost more. As the other gentlemen said, essentially 10 gp probably equals out to $300 USD. If we translated it to dollars, then it'd cost a lot and take a long time to get that powerful (assuming XP still works in somehow).
On top of that, you'd be able to bring one other person along. You carrying up to your max load, and your man-servant.

Never said it was all-powerful, not remotely. However, any wizard that KNOWS the spell and has been to two distance cities can make a ton of money by moving trade goods. It's cheap for the wizard to cast and they can bring what they are carrying along with others OR the equivalent amount in goods. They can move stuff back and forth every day rather than spending weeks slowly moving the goods. It's a massive difference.

And you can't use modern pay and pricing schemes to judge the value of coin in a D&D setting. The wealth disparity is going to be far larger than what we see today.

Teleport just shows the basic economic ramifications of even mid-level magic go completely ignored by the setting. There's a reason why there are dozens of sensible get-rich schemes that players can come up with using magic. Because there are dozens of ways to completely reshape the economy that most settings have never considered.


I'm actually not disagreeing with you. I was just kind of having a stream-of-conscious thought of how life would be different. Although even in the modern day, we don't have EVERY desire met. not like when you have wishes at your disposal. :)

Although of the three dystopian scenarios I've described, the second one method could actually be done with avoiding the whole dystopia aspect of it.


For a even better version of the immortal mage, see the Imperious Bloodline Sorcerer's 20th Level Power 'Immortal Legend'.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines -from-paizo/racial-bloodlines/imperious-bloodline-sorcerer-human


Oh and all those wishes being cast? Bound to attract the attention of a jealous god (who needs them now?), a malicious Efreet or even a devil looking to make a few souls on the side.

The place would be a magnet for every ruler who wanted to live forever, and every ruler threatened by their neighbour-kingdom's ruler living forever.

In short the project would start a major war one way or another.


Odraude wrote:
So, who wants to play in this campaign? :)

I do!


strayshift wrote:

Oh and all those wishes being cast? Bound to attract the attention of a jealous god (who needs them now?), a malicious Efreet or even a devil looking to make a few souls on the side.

The place would be a magnet for every ruler who wanted to live forever, and every ruler threatened by their neighbour-kingdom's ruler living forever.

In short the project would start a major war one way or another.

Moreover, they might attract the attention of the actual genies. Who then sees you have an army of enslaved genies. If you think war with the neighboring jealous kings was bad? Wait until the other planes start sending liberating parties.

Sovereign Court

The biggest issue with doing widespread and massive creation based off a staff of wishes is that you ultimately will crash the economy. A massive influx of expensive goods or hard currency will lead to massive devaluation, which in turn will cause the relative cost of everything to increase dramatically putting you into a downward spiral of economic collapse.


Admittedly, to avoid economic crashes of goods, there would be strict laws over what you could wish for (assuming currency of wishes scenario). Probably would only be necessities like food and water, as well as tools and such. I probably would have wishing for gold and other luxuries illegal in Mageopolis. Although one could say that there'd be no need for an economy and trade in the city if (going with the first scenario) you all get what you want anyways.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
zylphryx wrote:
The biggest issue with doing widespread and massive creation based off a staff of wishes is that you ultimately will crash the economy. A massive influx of expensive goods or hard currency will lead to massive devaluation, which in turn will cause the relative cost of everything to increase dramatically putting you into a downward spiral of economic collapse.

Yes, because if everything is easy to produce, that will destroy civilization. Not really though. You'd just have a dramatically different economy emerge. Something we might have in another 100 years.

You'd definitely have a massive growth in the service sector though.

In then end you'd have a huge restructuring of the economy and how life works, but that wouldn't be a bad thing per se.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I love it when people talk about how things would be with magic like their opinions are fact. :)


One of the bigger questions, though, is that with the simulacra djinn giving basic necessities and resources of food, water, health, and (possibly) shelter, you'd need someone to protect the djinn clones from enemy attack. Given their importance in providing resources to the populace, they would be prime targets for enemies of other nations to attack. So you'd have to provide some kind of security, whether it's hired guards, magical traps, or more simulacra guards. It would probably be cheaper on maintenance to just hire guards and set up some magic traps to protect the areas, although admittedly, considering the importance of said djinn, you'd want the best security detail on patrol.

Also, if one puts strict laws on what wishes can be provided to the populace (ie, only food, water, health, and shelter), I wonder, would there be a movement of people that would demand less restrictions on wishes? Would they demand wishes of no aging, or curing death, questioning the wisdom of putting such limitations on wishes that could benefit people even more? Would be interesting to ponder the social movements and cultural issues wish magic would bring.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I love it when people talk about how things would be with magic like their opinions are fact. :)

This is a hypothetical conversation, but I think it is fair to say that everyone getting access to stuff easier would not be a bad thing. It's worked out quite well for humanity in the real world. It is certainly true that there are thousands of questions magic brings up that most settings never even consider.

Scarab Sages

Because most common folk make their livings off copper and silver. When you bribe the guard a gold, its like giving out a Benjamin. Also in the line of pathfinder work, your taking on difficult challenges and as a result of doing something important you get:
A) FAME
B) prestige points
C) MONEY

Yeah that 500 gold you get for completing your adventure can buy you for instance 250 days of living in a Tavern (Good). How about a top notch lawyer (experienced) for that legal case? Only 10 gold for his services.

151 to 200 of 216 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Why is there death in Pathfinder? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.