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Given you can enter Mystic Theurge as early as level 4 instead of level 7 (or 9 for Sorc/Oracles…) I’m trying to come up with some solid Mystic Theurge builds!
The seemingly best way to meet this prereq is through the Aasimar Daylight abilitiy, which is a 3rd level arcane spell SLA. At level 3 you could take the Aasimar feat Heavenly Radiance to gain access to a 2nd level divine spell SLA, although this isn’t *really* required; you could just wait until you gain access to 2nd level spells naturally. The most important thing is no longer needing to get both halves of your casting up to 2nd level spells.
Here are some samples on ways you could build a Mystic Theurge:
Oracle 2/Sorcerer 1 – A Charisma based Mystic Theurge that doesn’t fall depressingly behind! You get your first 3rd level spells at level 7, instead of level 10. You could also switch to Sorcerer 2/Oracle 1. This build requires you to take Heavenly Radiance at level 3.
Cleric 3/Empyreal Sorcerer 1 – A wisdom based Mystic Theurge. You could take Heavenly Radiance at level 3 to go Cleric 2/Sorc 1/Mystic Theurge X; guess it depends on how important the feat is to you.
Wizard 2/Cleric 1 – Or you could try a witch/druid, etc. but I think Wizard/Cleric are better candidates since they aren’t as reliant on class abilities. Quite possibly still the best form of Mystic Theurge, with 3rd level spells by level 6. Still, you will be more MAD, needing lots of Int and Wis.
…
So is this new early entry Mystic Theurge absolutely busted? I don’t thinks so; I mean, which is better? Wizard 5 or Sorcerer 2/Oracle 1/Mystic Theurge 2? But no longer does the Mystic Theurge fall woefully behind, and can actually be a respectable substitute if the party is sorely lacking in full casters.
So how would you build your Mystic Theurge?
What sorts of archetypes, schools, domains, mysteries, revelations, bloodlines, etc would you consider for your Mystic Theurge? Feats? Spells?
To get the ball rolling, here's a couple concepts:
Heavens Oracle with Awesome Display revelation; this really allows you to remain relevant for a long time while you wait to gain access to your higher level spells. This revelation also applies to your Sorcerer spells too, so don't forget that!
Waves Oracle with Freezing Spells revelation; when combined with some Sorcerer bloodlines that switch the element of spells to cold, (Elemental, Marid) you can really fix the biggest problem with this revelation; no cold spells to pair it with!
Agathion-Blooded Aasimar gets summon nature's ally II, a 2nd level Divine spell.
Well, yes, that's one way to do it. But where do you get the Arcane SLA if you want early entry on both sides? Or do you go Sorc 4/Oracle 1/Mystic Theurge with SNA II?
I think just losing one spellcasting level makes MT too inexpensive (though you get hit harder after you use up all 10 levels). I'd be happier if they eliminated this early access, but changed it so that you just needed two levels in two different spell-casting classes.
Oh well.
Or go with making it a 15 or more level PrC and balance it around that.
From a balance perspective, I agree with you, but the choices we have before us are either the traditional method (Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT X) or this new early entry thing. I, for one, don't think early access will cause Mystic Theurges to dominate; I think it will make them relevant. But probably still weaker than a pure wizard.
Half-Elf alternate racial trait:
Drow Magic: A few half-elves with drow ancestry exhibit the innate magic of that race. Half-elves with this trait have drow blood somewhere in their background, and can cast dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire each once per day, using the half-elf's character level as the caster level for these spell-like abilities. This racial trait replaces the adaptability and multitalented racial traits.
One problem - this doesn't work. Aasimars (and gnomes) have 3rd level arcane SLAs which qualifies them as being able to cast 3rd level arcane spells for prereqs. It does not, however, qualifies them as being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells for prereqs. Yes it seems silly that one can effectively qualify only for a higher/harder prereq, but it is how this little 'workaround' works.
The other side, grabbing the 2nd level divine SLA, WOULD work to qualify you for the divine half; and then you have to build up to be able to actually cast 2nd level arcane spells.
I tried making this work at forth level for over an hour and I came to the same conclusion you did. One class has to get the spells naturally.
Hmm so are there any races capable of gaining 2nd level divine AND arcane SLAs?
yeah i thought with drow and take nobility feat. You have darkness (divine) & levitate (arcane)....and then oracle 2/sorcerer 1
My current JR character is a gnome oracle 4 /sorcerer4/ MT 2.....hard work getting there...had to rely a lot of my wolf companion BUT never runs out of stuff to do and is lots of fun!!!
Your drow darkness is arcane also. Arcane over divine unless it isn't on the wiz/sor list or you picked it up from a divine source such as a divine class.
really. learn something new from this ridiculous game everyday.
So a level 1 drow cleric can cast arcane spells?
so a sylph using speak with animals can cast a level 3rd arcane or divine spell or does it resort to divine level 1?
One problem - this doesn't work. Aasimars (and gnomes) have 3rd level arcane SLAs which qualifies them as being able to cast 3rd level arcane spells for prereqs. It does not, however, qualifies them as being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells for prereqs. Yes it seems silly that one can effectively qualify only for a higher/harder prereq, but it is how this little 'workaround' works.
The other side, grabbing the 2nd level divine SLA, WOULD work to qualify you for the divine half; and then you have to build up to be able to actually cast 2nd level arcane spells.
Almost every variant Aasimar gives you a 2nd level arcane spell as an SLA.
...I need someone to tell me that this won't work, please.
A higher-level cleric can hit his 3rd-level Wizard with Imbue with Spell-Like Ability to give him one of his 2nd level spells as an SLA. This qualifies the Wizard for Mystic Theurge for his 4th level.
Almost every variant Aasimar gives you a 2nd level arcane spell as an SLA.One problem - this doesn't work. Aasimars (and gnomes) have 3rd level arcane SLAs which qualifies them as being able to cast 3rd level arcane spells for prereqs. It does not, however, qualifies them as being able to cast 2nd level arcane spells for prereqs. Yes it seems silly that one can effectively qualify only for a higher/harder prereq, but it is how this little 'workaround' works.
The other side, grabbing the 2nd level divine SLA, WOULD work to qualify you for the divine half; and then you have to build up to be able to actually cast 2nd level arcane spells.
But it also takes you out of the running for the feat that gives you a 2nd level divine.
really. learn something new from this ridiculous game everyday.
So a level 1 drow cleric can cast arcane spells?so a sylph using speak with animals can cast a level 3rd arcane or divine spell or does it resort to divine level 1?
It isn't a pure arcane over divine, full casters beat out partial casters. So in your case, since bard is your only arcane class with the spell, the Cleric/Druid trumps.
-BUT if he is an aasimar/tiefling/some race that has a 2nd level arcane SLA, he can just take his third level in Cleric and then get the additional casting ability when he Mystic Theurges at level four.
-Imbue with Spell-Like Ability has a duration of "permanent until discharged (D)". So... until he's hit with a few Dispel Magics or walks into an Antimagic Field, essentially.
This feels very wrong.
-BUT if he is an aasimar/tiefling/some race that has a 2nd level arcane SLA, he can just take his third level in Cleric and then get the additional casting ability when he Mystic Theurges at level four.
-Imbue with Spell-Like Ability has a duration of "permanent until discharged (D)". So... until he's hit with a few Dispel Magics or walks into an Antimagic Field, essentially.This feels very wrong.
I don't think, I may be wrong, that Imbue is one of the effects you can have carry over from scenario to scenario in PFS. If it is a home game and a GM is going to accept this they would probably just let your daylight count for the prereq.
Edit: Actually this opens up the door to the plural/singular problem again. A tiefling could cast 4 darkness spells through its ability over the course of four days, but it could only cast an imbued spell once, hence it couldn't cast divine spells.
I was assuming it wasn't PFS. This wouldn't work in PFS.
Found it.
Fate Inquisition:
Augury (Sp): Once per day, you can use augury (2nd level divine spell) as a spell-like ability.
A race with a 2nd-level arcane SLA and one level in Cleric/Inquisitor/Druid with the Fate inquisition can satisfy the Theurge pre-reqs at level 1 (ignoring the skill rank pre-reqs)
Fourth-level Mystic Theurges are now possible.
Awesome find
I was building a Blaster-Druid to replace a dead Oracle, and was going to take a level of Crossblooded sorcerer for Bloodlines anyway... going Musetouched Aasimar has allowed me to dodge out of the way of all the Druid stuff I DONT like (Wildshape) and replace it with making my sorcerer spellcasting still progress (though at a really, really slow rate).
Which I think is notable... Crossblooded sorcerer dips got a whole lot less painful IMO.
Aasimar are descended from angels and gain their power based on that ancestry. I don't see how it can get any more divine flavored than that.
Last time I checked, Aasimar were descended from good outsiders, which can include agathions, peri, azata and the like. Dunno where you got that exclusively 'Angels' stuff from.
You can also get a 2nd level divine SLA from your first level of Wood Oracle. This means you can do a 3rd level Charisma-based theurge too.
Good find on the Wood Oracle; although that Mystery has little to offer a MT since it's best revelations are melee oriented. Still, early entry is certainly enough to consider it.
A Rakshasa Sorcerer gets Detect thoughts at level 3, so a Sorc 3/Oracle 1/MT X is possible that way...
Tracking down all these SLAs is quite the undertaking. There must be more ways to get what I want! =P
the aasimar sla doesn't count as arcane.
or something about the creature strongly indicates its spell-like abilities should be considered divine (such as a solar's spell-like abilities, as a solar usually directly serves a deity).
aasimar and tieflings fall strongly in this category. truth be told I made the same mistake at first, until someone pointed that caveat out to me.
edit:whoops skipped over shadowcat, sorry.
Aasimar are descended from angels and gain their power based on that ancestry. I don't see how it can get any more divine flavored than that.Last time I checked, Aasimar were descended from good outsiders, which can include agathions, peri, azata and the like. Dunno where you got that exclusively 'Angels' stuff from.
Agathions, peri, and azata aren't divine creatures?
Agathions, peri, and azata aren't divine creatures?Aasimar are descended from angels and gain their power based on that ancestry. I don't see how it can get any more divine flavored than that.Last time I checked, Aasimar were descended from good outsiders, which can include agathions, peri, azata and the like. Dunno where you got that exclusively 'Angels' stuff from.
Doesnt mean their powers are necessarily divine. Lillend Azatas, for instance, cast as bards.
Well, here's the FAQ in question:
Most spell-like abilities should be considered arcane, unless the spell in question only appears on the standard cleric or druid spell list (such as holy smite) or something about the creature strongly indicates its spell-like abilities should be considered divine (such as a solar's spell-like abilities, as a solar usually directly serves a deity).
("Standard spell list" meaning "not altered in some way by an archetype, prestige class, racial ability, and so on.")
—Pathfinder Design Team, Tuesday
This falls into somewhat of a gray area; the example cites a Solar directly serving their deity as the source of the SLA. Aasimar may not gain their abilities from a deity; and not all celestials are necessarily divine, either. Take a look at the Garuda, for example; their magic seems to draw from an arcane spell list.
Surely being able to use a spell-like ability isn't the same thing as being able to cast the spell? Am I missing something?
Alright, given that early entry is trending very much into "You should discuss this with your GM before doing this" (Be courteous to your GMs people!) here's another idea:
You know that d% Aasimar table that lets you roll for abilities? Well if you roll a 100 and subsequently roll twice, there are quite a few Divine SLAs and a few Arcane SLAs (Whispering Wind, Compassionate Ally). Given the chances of you rolling that are quite dubious, you could request getting that result and see what he says. You can justify this with a backstory, if you think it'll help.
How could you possibly be an Aasimar with 2 different SLAs from both Arcane AND Divine sources? Quite easily; through the workings of a deity or your mystery combined with your celestial heritage (Garuda and so on) or whatever other bloodline flows through your veins. (Sorcerer Bloodline)
That makes you sort of divinely predisposition'd to be a master of both Arcane AND Divine! Works for me.
Yes.
This has RAW support, which PFS must support.
Like it, or not.
1. RAW Support is at best debatable since it relies on particularly skewed readings of a perquisite and the interpretation of what it means to have a spell like ability.
2. PFS has it's own house rules. It's known as the Campaign Guide, and it trumps RAW and every other document you can think of.
yup, RAW I can play a synthesist, pfs I can't.
Read the other thread. Recent FAQ has determined that SLAs count as an ability to cast spells for prerequisites.
I see an answer that specifically addresses item creation feats...is there more? Otherwise I don't see how we're getting to prestige class prerequisites.
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Yes.
This has RAW support, which PFS must support.
Like it, or not.
1. RAW Support is at best debatable since it relies on particularly skewed readings of a perquisite and the interpretation of what it means to have a spell like ability.
2. PFS has it's own house rules. It's known as the Campaign Guide, and it trumps RAW and every other document you can think of.
1. RAW support is actually very solid at this point.
2. Nothing in the current campaign guide overrules the recent FAQs.
Agathion-Blooded Oracle 1/Sorcerer 4/Theurge X
Early entry into Mystic Theurge with only a single level lost in arcane casting.
Yup, that's the other way to do it, which is certainly a step up from level 4 on both sides.
You could also do Oracle 4/Sorc 1/MT X with Angel/Archon/Azata/Garuda/Peri-Blooded.
RAW support is actually very solid at this point.
Are you referring to:
Q: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat?
A: Yes
?
If so, I don't see how jumping from "for selecting an item creation feat" to "qualifying for a prestige class" can accurately be described as "very solid."
Edit: And this is beside the point, but should an unambiguous ruling be issued in support of this interpretation, then my confidence in the designers will reach an all-time low.
2. Nothing in the current campaign guide overrules the recent FAQs.I expect a clarification to be posted as soon as M&M are aware of this question.
which will in turn change this standard rule into a houserule for my home games, and the circle of life goes on;).
RAW support is actually very solid at this point.Are you referring to:
Q: Does having a caster level from a spell-like ability meet the caster level prerequisite for selecting an item creation feat?
A: Yes
?
If so, I don't see how jumping from "for selecting an item creation feat" to "qualifying for a prestige class" can accurately be described as "very solid."
You're reading the wrong FAQ entry. The relevant one is "Does an SLA count as being able to cast that spell for prerequisites or requirements?" To which the answer is 'yes'
I would quote it, but my phone is awful for that.
Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13
You're reading the wrong FAQ entry. The relevant one is "Does an SLA count as being able to cast that spell for prerequisites or requirements?" To which the answer is 'yes'
I would quote it, but my phone is awful for that.
Ah, I see. I was following the links in the earlier thread. I'm guessing this is the one:
Q: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?Yes.
Which I agree is clear. Ill-considered, but clear. Complaint withdrawn, house rule added, carry on. :)
Edit: Though of course that means I have to allow this in PFS. *sigh*